Jetstar StarClass

[murgatroid]

Nice ad on the back of SMH Good Weekend today.

Leather seats, big headphones, laptop, space, etc etc, feeling dreamy already.

But Uh Oh, nice looking wine that; in a cheap plastic throw away cup.

Mind you, not a nice wine glass shaped sturdy elegant plastic job, but the flimsy big 250ml size you see stacked 20 high next to the Fruity Lexia cask at a bogan engagement party.

Well at least it comes served on a napkin, all is not lost!

[Howard Hughes]

So you've been to a Bogan engagement party then? Uh oh, I guess that kinda makes you a, well, errr....;)

Perhaps Jetstar punters prefer to guzzle their wine, rather than quoff!:E

[Led Zep]

Stuff the placky cup, where's mah silver handbag? :}

[Chimbu chuckles]

My sister is a travel agent in BN...she reports that ALL her regulars point blank refuse to fly J* ever again...in the last week one even rang from Hawaii somewhat upset as they had been transfered onto J* even though booked on mainline...While they hadn't experienced J* yet they had heard horror stories from every Ozzie tourist they bumped into...and decided they didn't want to under any circumstances. When she rang J* on behalf of those passengers the response to "They booked full service and they want full service" was "They expect too much".:ugh:

What a winning attitude:rolleyes:

[Angle of Attack]

Ok lets get rid of the hype and get to the point, does Starclass serve XXXX?
If they dont, I'm sorry to report they fail in the premium stakes.
If they do I am there and do I have to pay for it and if I dont I'll drink their galleys dry!!!

[Oldmate]

Any truth starclass is going to be introduced on domestic services??

[Dodgy Boy]

Interesting that they're using the name brand 'starclass'. I believe that a certain UK charter airline has been using that for some time and held a copyright to it.

[VH-Cheer Up]

QF registered Starclass as a trademark in Australia late 2005, the registration was finalised June 2006 and goes to sometime in 2015.

First Choice uses Star Class for its economy equivalent, Star Class Premier for it's upmarket service.

Hmmm... Jetstar Starclass. First Choice Star Class.

Even the name of the Jetstar version has a bit less space...

[priapism]

And in a few years time it will be renamed business class to match the new Jetstar livery of white with a red tail /flying kangaroo .

[Icarus53]

What's the business plan here??? You would think a low fare carrier would be more focused on bums in seats. Am I overly cynical in suggesting that it was just a bit too hard to reconfigure the ex QF 330s, but once the 787 hits town it'll be all cattle class???

Any inside info on 787 config yet? Perhaps they'll keep them the same as the QF models so they can switch back too!

[Wingspar]

Yep the definition of a lost cost model is now getting a bit fuzzy!

They are trying to be attractive to other markets other than the price sensitive one. I am surprised they are openly advertising the seats as business now. The last thing they would want to do is create confusion in the market place, ie exactly what is Jetstar.....low cost or full service? Especially confuse the product with what Qantas offers! Don't let Starclass get anywhere near the Qantas skybed or even what is on the international 767 or they'll screw it up.

I say they are trying to hedge they bets but I also think the success they've had domestically is clouding their judgement. Jetstar has to be completely different to Qantas or the whole exercise fails and that will only hurt the core brand which is a very big no no!

[Taildragger67]

Martinair Holland also use the term 'Star Class' for their premium product.

Maybe QF should've copyrighted the term 'Business Class' when they invented it back in the '80s...

[B A Lert]

A meat pie....

Now that is real class. How many stars?:rolleyes:

[J0N0]

I think priapism hit the nail on the head! The way forward for J* is certainly to have a star/business class. My humble opinion only but dont be fooled by them saying its going to stay low cost and no frequent flyer stuff, no business class etc. How about the theory that J* will continue to expand and QF will shrink. Gradually they will try and beat down the QF pay scales or go contracts. Then in the future when the wages are down they will have a big merge and roll J* into QF. Wont go the other way because they will want to keep the Ozzy icon name!! Then we have a "new" QF will all the same services as it currently is only on a "low cost" (read paying staff less) basis. Our only saving grace though could (potentially maybe) come in the way of a pilot shortage. Just my 2 cents worth anyway!!

[Victor India]

Murgatroid (post 1) et al,

I note your snobbish tone towards the 'typical' Jetstar passenger. Believe me, the introduction of Jetstar has had a profound effect on my career, but I must say I have no ill feelings towards those who are choosing to use the Jetstar product. I think it is a sad result that people in this industry end up slinging sh*t at the "Aussie bogan". They didn't create Jetstar - GD and his cronies did. I admit the average dress standard on a Jetstar service is below the mainline average, but it's not the passengers who set the low fares, the Qantas Group does. Of course this will attract a new demograph.

I'm sure that in the early 1900s, it was unusual to see someone in dirty workers clothing travelling atop the relative luxury of a Model T Ford. Perhaps it would have drawn a snide remark from the few wealthy enough to own one. I can't help seeing similarities with the types of remarks I read on this and other threads from people who seem to derive joy from emphasising the class differences between us all.

I have spent my entire adult life earning a decent wage and wearing a respectable set of threads/uniform to work. But if I am travelling to Hamilton Island on a Jetstar service for a week sailing, do you reckon I wear a pair of thongs/sandals and shorts and enjoy a Bundy enroute? Absolutely!

Ask yourself the question : when you take yourself, your partner and/or your kids down to the beach on a Sunday morning, do you wear a pair of tailored business style trousers, a business shirt and a tie down to the beach or perhaps relax your usually impeccable dress standard and make do with a pair of boardies, thongs and a t-shirt? Would you expect to be called a "Bogan" by people sitting in a gucci beachfront cafe?

Reality check : if you need to complain about the "Aussie Bogan" in that he doesn't need to dress up for his flight and he enjoys a Fruity Lexia, I'd suggest the problem is yours, not his. Let's focus on the real culprits...

VI

[Pete Conrad]

Jono...your spot on, and they are proud to be doing it too I might add...no morals spring to mind...but then again when you get mostly a bunch of guys together that have never had it so good, then what do you expect?

[topend3]

i think star class is the equivalent of most other airlines economy class...

[Ex QF]

From Travel Section of SMH today.
http://blogs.smh.com.au/travel/archives/2007/02/jetstar_blues.html
For those who can't access it.
"No star night flight:
My first experience of travelling internationally with Jetstar left me in the dark. The airline got me home safely, so that's arguably worthy of a one star rating. But based on my flight from Phuket to Sydney I offer the following advice to prospective passengers: forget all about in-flight meals and pray for a seat in which you can see the light!
Initial thoughts on boarding were extremely positive. Our plane was a spotlessly clean Airbus 330-200, hardly suggestive of a budget airline. The young cabin crew got all 300 passengers stowed away with efficiency and we departed Phuket bang on time at 10.20pm. So far, very good indeed.
Then things began to unravel. I can forgive our seats having hardly any recline. That's expected when flying budget economy. I can forgive the entertainment system acting up. It can happen on any airline. What I found unacceptable was being kept in the dark, unable to read.
Beware of seats 49H and 49J. The reading lights for both seats are located directly above the row in front, so once those passengers reclined all light was effectively extinguished for us behind! Is this a peculiarity in Airbus design or the result of Jetstar's cramped seating configuration? The same applies to seats 49A and 49B whereas the middle seats in row 49 are correctly aligned. It's possible that other rows suffer similar incongruity.The flight attendant could only give an embarrassed giggle at the anomaly.
Unable to read, I hoped to sleep but unfortunately we'd pre-ordered the meal service. Despite our late evening departure this took ages to arrive, delayed by the cabin crew spending the first 90 minutes of the flight distributing portable DVD players and collecting hire charges. During this long hiatus I drifted asleep, only to be abruptly woken to receive my food pack.
How is it possible to ruin a dish as simple as noodles with vegetables? Jetstar served a glutinous mess of tepid, flat rice noodles with the odd slice of carrot for colour. The fish with rice dish was no better. The accompanying chocolate bars were old and stale. For this we'd each paid $26.
Phuket-Sydney is an eight-hour flight. Those shameful dinner packs were delivered nearly two hours after departure. Three hours later, around 3,30am, I was again woken from fitful sleep. Breakfast so soon? We still had four hours to touchdown. "Well, it's breakfast time now in Sydney," was the explanation. It was still too dark to read.
Rob Woodburn" author

[019360]

If you don't like it then don't travel with them. Heavens, its a free world, no-one is forcing you to. Until de-regulation came some poor folks sat up all night on buses to get somewhere cheaply. And lots of folks just didn't travel at all. Competition widens the market and provides jobs. If you want to travel Business Class pay for it!

[dodgybrothers]

jetstar starclass you don't pay for meals so the guy is either having a lend or that post belongs somewhere else. If he is travelling economy then the aircraft left on time, he got his pre ordered crap and the got him to sydney safely on a, as he put it, spotlessly clean aircraft, on time. You get what you pay for. Mission accomplished I'd suggest.

[Angle of Attack]

Yeah Dodgy I think this article is relating to normal not star class, as he didnt mention it, so probably belongs elsewhere. Pity for him i came back Phuket to Brisbane (via Bangkok ) 2 years ago and it was not bad, and ony $400 !! God damn I didnt realise the meals were $26 each! lol i thought they only be 10 bucks or somethings haha, sounds crap.

[Elroy Jettson]

The plan is simple, and becoming clearer. The plan is not for a low cost airline, the plan is for a low salary airline. A big difference. The plan is to expand and develop the Qantas group without the current staff and terms and conditions and the unions. The easiest way to do it without massive industrial disruption, is to do it through the back door. The back door is, and has always been the "Qantas Group" which Jetstar is an integral part.

Dixons words, "the first 10 787s are going to jetstar, the rest will go to where they are best utilised". Fair enough, every company has the right to do that, and would be bordering on negligence if they didnt. But lets think what that means for mainline terms and conditions. How are they going to compete? Match Jetstar rates, or the Qantas group will expand around them, without them, despite them.

Dont think it will happen? Casing point, Australian Airlines. As of July, the orange paint disappeared, the blue shirts swapped for white, the paint job back to red and white, business seats put back in, the tickets sold at Qantas premium prices, low and behold, the only thing that didnt go back to the Qantas standard was the staff salaries! Big surprise? No. What was the industrial comeback? Nothing. What was the regulators response? Nothing. What was the final result? Qantas mainline product being operated by people on less money than the mainline staff agreement.

Does anyone out there think that G.D didnt realise the the significance of this industrial change?

Now, look forward a few years from now, and tell me that GD doesnt have this trump card up his sleeve ready to play it on the introduction of the 787 into the "Qantas Group"? Mainline will still exist, as the Qantas brand is valuable, and worth keeping. Jetstar will still exist, as it serves a purpose of servicing a completely different market. Unfortunately only the staff stuck in the middle and closer to the bottom will suffer. That is junior Captains and FOs, and all SO's. Management sure as hell wont suffer, and those at the top of the QF seniority list wont. Just dont expect them to do anything to help the unfortunates about to be shafted.

[Transition Layer]

dodgybrothers,
jetstar starclass you don't pay for meals so the guy is either having a lend or that post belongs somewhere else
from the post in question...
Beware of seats 49H and 49J
I think it's fair to say that this bloke was definitely not in Star Class if he was in row 49. Still related to the overall topic I would have thought though.

Anyway, JQ Intl sounds like lots of fun (NOT), I'll be buying a ZED Fare on another carrier if the alternative to Staff Travel on JQ is there. Same goes for domestic, in the early stages of planning a holiday right now and going for Cairns over anywhere else in QLD (i.e. hamilton island, proserpine etc) as I know there are 5 QF flights a day and I can sit in business and avoid the JQ rubbish.

I might just be a staff traveller but if something like that factors into the holiday equation then I'm sure there's thousands of other people out there doing the same.

TL

[Eastwest Loco]

The gentle art of avoiding may be the easiest way to combat Jetstaritis.

We book bucketloads of professional surfers to Bali and HNL, and they avoid JQ like the plague. On the HNL run, Hawaiian actually make JQ look excellent. At least it appears JQ cabin service and aeroplane presentation is up to scratch. So it should be.

The interesting thing is Garuda is within dollars generally on the Bali run with full service. The A330 is a nice beastie for both carriers, and GA landings are more impacts than a gentle arrival but the overall experience is excellent.

Thai are excellent value to HKT despite the BKK transit and come in close in price again with full service. It is all perception. Most of the travel occasionally traffic assume that because it is a LCC they are immediately getting a good deal.

A client called me from NAN to say his Virgin Pacific flight had been cancelled due to the Captain going U/S in SYD and they were stuck there overnight. There was an Air Pacific flight rolling 2 hours later and DJ had no transfer arrangement in place.

The flight I E ticketed for him was actually cheaper by $40.00 per person than the allged cheapie his wife bought online 6 months earlier - and with full service. They booked it themselves on the web and I was told to get rooted when I asked if they had called the web to fix it - in a friendly way - sort of!

LCCs are all the go with ultra cheap frares - UNTIL - the load starts to get a bit cheerful. From then on check the full service carriers. Generally the overall experience will be a damned side better.

Best all

EWL

[galdian]

Firstly Elroy: wish I'd read your post earlier, have just posted on the topic "Qantas pilot recruitment" and our views are very similar
EW Loco: always great to hear from you, amazingly articulate even for an "adopted" Taswegian (think about that, meant to be a compliment!)

Even Jetstar can change - remember how in the early days it was "the way to go" (according to AJ) to have non-allocated seating, now seating is allocated.
They have screwed up with Jetstar Intl, keeping people captive and hungry for a (max) 5 hour domestic flight you can get away with, sectors of 10+ are another thing.

The evolution may well be:
-Jetstar Intl will go to free meals and "improve" the service in Business Class, the quality and quantity of the said nourishment TBC;
- GD will increasingly be quoted as saying "Qantas can no longer absorb losses on the xxx-xxx route but we are happy that we will still service or loyal customers from within the QANTAS group with the benefits of...."

That does NOT have to necessarily be Jetstar btw! - why not Australian Airlines, Jetstar Asia, Jitkinnekt or even NatJets - all part of the Qantas GROUP??

I agree with Elroy - the aim is low cost salary, NOT low cost airline and Jetstar (and the other options available) will be utilised as required and one day the QF "mainline" brand will be dominant again but at a lower cost base.

EWLoco a question if I may - I know airline tickets pretty "liberal" regarding the obligation of airlines to fulfill their "contract" however, for example using your quoted situation of substituting Jetstar Intl for Qantas IF it could be shown that QF (or the CE in particular, that's where the buck should stop)) sold a seat on a full service airline KNOWING, or having REASONABLE INTENT that there would be a substitution to a non full-service airline, isn't that out and out misrepresentation to the consumer and hence deemed illegal??
A job for Slater & Gordon (or similar)?? :E

Regards to all.

[priapism]

Elroy,

You have summed it up very well - expanded on my short theory in post # 9.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is the agenda and the sale of Q.F will only accelerate the process. Competition from the likes of Tiger airways will be used as an additional catalyst to turn many employee groups - particularly large ones such as Flight Attendants , into a low salary, high turnover jobs with little or no career progression or job satisfaction.

The general public won't give a rats because management will trot out statistics to say they are still employed. Airline jobs in general are viewed by the public as pretty cushy-particularly flight attendants.

If I was Q.F mainline -any division -I would be extremely worried.

[B A Lert]

JQ is just a low salary carrier to help Dixon reduce costs & conditions at Qantas Mainline. It's a pity his aim couldn't be achieved in a civilised manner rather than by 'inventing' Jetstar. We all know that Mainline conditions are out of whack with community standards (where's my hard hat?) but the bullies from TN have taken the easy way out.

JQ are certainly not low cost for most punters as most of the empirical eveidence suggests - what a shame some of the journalists don't make some comparative studies of the fare offerings and post their results. Only yesterday I was looking at Darwin-Singapore on 8th March, chosen totally at random. While the 'fess and taxes' on both Tiger and Jetscar were within a cent or so of each other, their fares certainly were not: JQ one way fare was $435 while Tiger were offering a fare of just $34.99. Admiitedly, Tiger depart at 0300 local but hey, $400 in your wallet instead of someone's hotel till makes a lot of sense. I ask you, who is really low cost?

By the way, as the JQ flights Cairns/Darwin to Singapore are operated by Jetstar Asia with their all economy A320's, their much promoted Starclass is not available.

[B A Lert]

what exactly are you talking about ?

The knife has been well and truly put through ground staff. You know that, I know that. In fact, we all know it. As a result, their conditions are pretty much in line with or even better than most enjoy. The targets meant to be affected by Jetstar are pilots and cabin crew. Now, if we look at T&Cs for these groups at other Australian airlines than Qantas Mainline, you will see what I mean. This has been done to death and I won't pursue the argument here....it's just a waste of time trying to have an objective debate with others who have such vested interests that they can't see the wood for the trees. Time to go and smell the roses.....

[Eastwest Loco]

Galdian - G'day!
I am inclined to think the substitution of JQ for QF would have happened to passengers who had booked pre December, when the service dates of the QF3/4 ops were changed and mixed with JQ. At the time passengers who booked with humans were given the option of swapping to the nearest date with QF metal or remaining on the QF codeshare on the JQ metal. This was generally without compensation as most of the fares at that stage were fairly close to the regular JQ levels (opening specials notwithstanding of course).
Those who had booked on the web would have received a schedule change notification detailing a QF300 series flight number and modified timings, but would most likely have not twigged the "operated by Jetstar Airways" disclaimer under the flight details. Hence, they would most likely have gone wandering happily to the 'drome only to find an A330 parked where they expected to see a 743 or 763.
The QF codeshare on JQ can actually be sold on a return basis providing one leg is on QF metal as all QF flight numbers through the GDS's. This is done on QF published or nett remit fares.
Assuming the same occurs with web bookings, many would be unaware that they have booked a JQ seat in one direction and that would mean they have to read.
As for litigating - read the terms and conditions of travel.
A basic simplification is "It's our aeroplane and we can do anything we want".
Hope this helps
Best regards
EWL

[Elroy Jettson]

Galdian, you get it.

Jetstar started out being sold to QF staff as "protection" from anyone else setting up a LCC, and has ended up as an industrial instrument of GD. I dont however credit him with having this vision all along, it fell in his lap courtesy of the AO trial and subsequent perceived failure. The reality was it was a massive success industrially for the management.

It was the proof the board needed that they could destroy terms and conditions without a fight. Not even a whimper. (Not) Surprisingly it was the current chief pilot who facilitated the shafting, and was subsequently rewarded with a management role for effectively overseeing the end of mainline terms and conditions as we knew them. It all starts to make sense when you look back at how hard he pushed for AO to happen when he ran the union.

EWL already eludes to a blurring of the boundaries between J* and mainline, he also points out that people dont want to fly LCC over any great distance.

Lets project this forward a few years from now. Jetstar international is in trouble, people have decided they dont want to pay for toilet paper on a longhaul flight. The "experiment" fails. Why dont we just do what we did with AO, and paint the aircraft red and white, and leave the people on jetstar pay rates? Surprise surprise!

[goddamit]

True you only get what you pay for. However an associate booked QF from Hawaii & got bumped to J*. This is unacceptable for an airline to do unless the sister carrier has an equivalent service class. As for bogans travelling, the gripe I have is the dress & conduct. On even a 90min trip no one should have to sit beside someone in stubbies, singlets & thongs.Last time I paxed a team of these sat beside & behind me, all had BO, garlic breath. I for one don't like sitting shoulder to shoulder with a sweaty singet wearing BO ridden passenger. Ettiquette is about common sense.

[Pete Conrad]

goddamit...you were probably sitting next to J* new F/O recruits, stubbies, singlets, garlic breath etc........what do you expect when you undercut mainline by 40%?

[ditzyboy]

"i think star class is the equivalent of most other airlines economy class..."

topend3 -
How many airlines offer 2-3-2 on A330's with 5-7" more pitch than international standard? For economy class, as you say?

[Eastwest Loco]

Here is another example for you good PPRuNers.
Booking made by me today for one of our high spend corporates - QF Platinum frantic flappers too. Comparing Garuda Executive to JQ Star Class there was a difference of $40.00, after I added a $50.00 service fee but the difference was the same down the back with no addons like food and amenities for the couples son who must eat cake if he wants to go.
Now the son gets full service and ice cold Bintang while mum and dad enjoy the J class service in the pointy end, and full if confused backup and accommodation if the aeroplane falls over, or protection onto another carrier on an FIM if it is a terminal take it to the shed fault.
It was really a no-brainer what they were going to choose. The Garuda lounges are interesting but absolutely fine and have all the amenities you need.
The Ryan Air formula may be dragging them in on short/medium haul domestic for now but is losing a lot on the translation to medium haul international. People who fly regularly are shying away and it is going to take a huge culture shift to make it any different.
I think Elroy is on the right track with the "failed experiment" theory and revert to mainline on JQ pay and contract labour. Sort of a velvet bulldozer compared to the Abeles/Hawke consortium restructure of yesteryear.
Taking the LCC formula which is firmly established with narrowbody equipment with varying degrees of success worldwide into widebody is either stupid, very clever or totally devious with more hidden agendas than a Labor Caucus.
There must be more to this.
I am sure this is going to bite us all on the butt in the short term, whichever way it drops.
In the interim, always check the full service alternatives. Also read all the stuff that is thrown up in front of you on a web-booked fare as there is more than likely something that you have missed, like being advised you have been booked onto a LCC codeshare.
Or, consult a professional that issues tickets in-house and knows what they are doing, just like you but working in a different field of knowledge.
Best regards all
EWL

[Condition lever]

EWL

For a guy that works out of Tasmania you seem to do an awful lot of booking for professional surfers - and hanging around in a supposed Professional Pilot's web site.

You also have a one track mind in pushing Garuda as a carrier.

What gives????

[B A Lert]

You also have a one track mind in pushing Garuda as a carrier

Seems simple to me. EWL, as do countless others, reckons the Jetstar product and business sucks. As there is only one other carrier serving Bali, has the poor guy any other choice given his views on Jetscar?

[Eastwest Loco]

Condition lever

80% of our traffic originates outside of and never touches Tassie. It is mostly high care corporate, and markets my staff and I have developed over the years. They include majore mainframe computer system companies, software companies, Surfing Australia. surf clothing manufacturers, professional surfers, maritime employment agencies and the occasional Devonport RSL patron. We look outside the envelope.

As for Garuda being mentioned several times you may well note that I did include that their landings were generally impacts but I do like them. The airline was simply pertinent to the current discussion as they are in direct competition on a route that is now solely operated by JQ from the QF stable.

To put it in perspective, our office sells over 1.5 million bucks of great white rat a year, and that is my personal chosen carrier. I will fly QFLink and enjoy Club Rat at the airports where it exists.

Last year we again topped all Jetset agencies in Victoria and Tassie for QF plated sales issued in office.

I like many others am just a little worried what is happening to my mates within the airline who help me help them keep a job that is looking more shakey by the day.

As for hanging around in here, if I am not wanted then the Woomeri are most welcome to tell me to bugger off and I will.

If my input is not relevant then I hope I will be told to do so. On the other hand I live in hope that some of the input I provide gives you good Pilots some insight to the realities and spins operating in the industry that directly or indirectly on your career direction.

No, I am not a Pilot and was once a wanabee, then I hit puberty and realised that my eyesight would not have then allowed me to emulate my TAA 727 driver uncle, so went elsewhere. Good luck to you and well done if you have made the grade. It is a tough thing to do.

What gives is that I really care about an industry that is being trashed by greedy management and the only thing I can do is add more information for intelligent minds to digest and act on.

If you feel this in not appropriate, please advise the Woomeri and request that I be barred from comment.

I will abide by such a decision as this is indeed a forum for professional Pilots.

I am not one.

Best regards

EWL

[galdian]

Condition lever

EWL is, maybe, one of the last people on earth who still view pilots as they really are - distinguished, learned, cultured individuals whose abilities and compassion, not to mention their understated brilliance and inspiration which is only exceeded by their increadible humility, makes one want to, no, actually FORCES one to view them as GOD-like entities (I could go on for hours!) - and you want to have a go at him???? :)
(EWL I have taken liberties however I fail to see how such an erudite and sound individual as yourself could think otherwise.) :ok:

EWL has been around for a while, seen many changes and, unlike some, retains a passion for the industry.
I enjoy his input as I, also, still enjoy the industry.

When Ansett went down some 850 pilots lost out - that also means that some 16,000+ OTHER direct employ staff lost out, not to mention a flow on effect to thousands of others.
I trust your comment about the forum was not meant to be as elitist as it came across.

Regards to all.

[galdian]

Well I am amazed

In the time it took me to post EWL has posted (as well as BA lert) and I reckon EWL won game, set and match.
Much of the previous is (now) somewhat reduntant.

Oh well, to quote another well known Australian - "such is life."

Regards to all.

[Eastwest Loco]

Your call was more than correct as to my mindset galdian, however I also have the respect of many of your bretheren who deal with me by choice for my knowledge base and alleged integrity. My best shot is my only shot.

I thank you for falling in behind me in support.

Horses for courses, as this one fell at the first hurdle and went into a different part of a still great industry. Having grown up around hangars with DC4's and 6's in bits and seeing the marvel of VH-TJA making its first arrival at Essendon I have loved every second of it.

I also reckon I was the first 9-10 year old to ever read the entire internal incident report of Julie Alpha's coming together with the CP Air DC8 at Sydney where he wiped 8 feet off the Douglas' fin.

I still marvel at the brilliance that allowed Jimmy James (who was PIC on my first ever flight which happened to be on TJA) to haul the lady up and actually clear all but the fin before V1. Read the incident report and learn everyone. There was a litlte Lancaster pilot in him and many of his time. Kevin Humphris was another, and he could make an F27 look like an Lanc in the way he eased the fully loaded plus a bit girl off the ground and made her look regal through his skill and airmanship.

Why on earth would I not stand in awe of brilliance and things I am not capable of?

It works both ways. I had a lovely lady in the office day before yesterday who had a mum die in Johannesburg just before she arrived in my office. I got her an excellent fare and out the door and onto the Melbourne bugsmasher to connect SQ which was the first available. Just luck there was one seat available each way in the cheapest class. Meant to be. She said that she could not believe I had done what I had done at the price and so expeditiously and that I was amazing. In this case it was pure arse.

Perception is everything. The lady is a surgeon at the local Hospital. Hello? I am a rock ape compared to a surgeon!

Galdian, you and your mates please carry on being the best in the world at doing what you do best, and I if allowed will feed in some bits and pieces that may help, remembering the DJ Jungle Jets rumour started with me. The old travel fart has an excellent network!

Between all of us we may just retain an industry.

THAT is the biggie. Retain ourselves and something we love.

Best regards galdian, CL and everyone.

If I get kicked, so be it but I am better for my time here with you guys and girls.

EWL