View Full Version : Fly with FAA PPL in Spain?
LimaRomeo
2nd Feb 2007, 19:24
Hi there,
Anyone knows if you can fly and rent a small aircraft (C152/172) in Spain without converting your license to JAA/JAR?
Thanks!
172driver
2nd Feb 2007, 19:46
Yes, you can. BUT - you will have to get a 'certificate of recognition' from the Spanish authorities. To this end you will need:
- a copy of your log book certified by public notary
- a copy of your license and medical certified by pubilc notary
- various forms
- patience: it takes anything from 2-6 weeks
The way to proceed is:
- find a place where you want to rent from, e.g. Aerodynamics in Malaga
- contact them
- send them the above docs
- hope your cert arrives in time
Thereafter, flying in Spain is great :ok:
PS: your post doesn't state which license you hold, I am assuming FAA. Should it be a national European (especially German or Austrian), there are a few other options, as some FTO/FBOs have D-reg a/c
I think it's worth compiling a summary of where in Europe an FAA PPL and IR are usable.
We know in the UK (i.e. for a G-reg) the PPL is automatically validated, and the IR is also usable for IFR OCAS.
What about F-reg, D-reg, etc?
Write away.... :)
LimaRomeo
3rd Feb 2007, 16:13
Thanks for the advice, guys!
I am a Belgian guy holding an FAA PPL. The only catch to that 'certificate of recognition' from the Spanish authorities could be that they refuse to give it to an EU-national (me!).
To 172driver: As far as I know, all European JAA licenses are valid in other JAA countries. So a Belgian/UK/German/French/(...) JAA PPL holder can go to any club in Spain and rent an A/C without any formalities (apart from the usual check ride, off course...).
To IO540:
- FAA PPL's are valid without any paperwork on G-reg's.
- In Holland you can fly VFR with an FAA License if you are not a Dutch National and stay in Dutch airspace.
- Other countries might give you a 'restricted holiday license' but these are for a very limited time periode (Germany for example) or they refuse to hand it to EU-nationals (France says I have to fully convert FAA -> JAA)
For the past year, I have written numerous letters and emails to several national authorities. I want to make them understand that - according to the ICAO treaty - they have to recognize an FAA PPL as equal to a JAA PPL. But few countries comply to this rule and they refuse to accept an American License. It's a long road ...
Maybe we should start a list with locations of N-regs and G-reg's all across Europe?
LR
In Holland you can fly VFR with an FAA License if you are not a Dutch National and stay in Dutch airspace.
Does "national" mean citizenship? What if you have a Dutch passport and also say a Polish passport? If you give up your Dutch passport, there is (under the EU setup) no practical difference in the way you live, pay tax, etc.
I believe ICAO does allow a State to prevent its own "nationals" from exercising the privileges of a foreign license. I have no idea if this has to be universal (for that State) or if the national CAA can use it to ban specific individuals from flying on e.g. FAA licenses.
it seems that anybody from Europe getting a FAA PPL really has to have access to a N reg aircraft
Yes that's true. Most people doing FAA PPLs are working towards the FAA IR and then you are looking at participating in this activity at a significant level of budget, and then it all makes sense. But for VFR-only messing about, no.
172driver
3rd Feb 2007, 17:22
To 172driver: As far as I know, all European JAA licenses are valid in other JAA countries. So a Belgian/UK/German/French/(...) JAA PPL holder can go to any club in Spain and rent an A/C without any formalities (apart from the usual check ride, off course...).
Yes, you are correct - although this wasn't really your question :confused:
For the past year, I have written numerous letters and emails to several national authorities. I want to make them understand that - according to the ICAO treaty - they have to recognize an FAA PPL as equal to a JAA PPL. But few countries comply to this rule and they refuse to accept an American License. It's a long road ...
LimaRomeo, you are a brave soul :ok: Indeed, legally you are probably correct, but.... let us know how you get on, might be worth organizing an online petition here. Let's see (and hope against hope) how EASA will treat the issue.
Also, a list of countries that actually DO accept an FAA license (and under which conditions, e.g. VFR / IFR, etc) would be a great idea.
LimaRomeo
3rd Feb 2007, 17:42
IO540:
Flying in Holland-Reg-Ac's with FAA PPL is only possible if you DON't have a dutch passport and DON'T have your residence in Holland.
In your case, I would show my POLISCH passport and hide your dutch one far far away. Other question is then: where is your officiel residence?
More details later, have to go now...
LR
Cathar
3rd Feb 2007, 18:47
I want to make them understand that - according to the ICAO treaty - they have to recognize an FAA PPL as equal to a JAA PPL. But few countries comply to this rule and they refuse to accept an American License. It's a long road ...
There is no obligation under the Chicago Convention for a contracting state to recognise the PPL issued by another contracting state as valid for flying an aircraft on its register. There is the following recommendation in Annex 1 to the Convention but as this is a recommendation and not a standard it is not binding:
1.2.2.3 Recommendation.— A pilot licence issued by a Contracting State should be rendered valid by other Contracting States for use in private flights.
SoCal
anybody with a FAA certificate flyng VFR only in Europe or who does not have ready access to a N reg aircraft should probably bite the bullet and convert to a JAR license. Problem solved
Indeed, but this usually involves sitting all the JAA exams (6 or 7; can't remember; did mine in 2000) and getting a local medical which for me was USD 300 or so. (My FAA Class 1 is USD 150 which incidentally is about 1/7 of the JAA Class 1 initial).
it begs the question why did those European VFR only pilots get an FAA certificate in the first place
I guess that some ended up with an FAA PPL because they went to the USA to get a PPL for significantly less money than doing it in the UK, and didn't realise.... However nowadays most such people are working towards the FAA IR. Most of those (me included) have/had to make a decision whether to keep their previous JAA licenses current; for a G-reg you don't have to but if you want to self fly hire around Europe then you do have to. Even in the UK, reportedly, many schools/clubs won't accept an FAA PPL.
For all the criticism of the CAA, they are very generous in this department. Not to mention others, like non-radio non-clearance IFR in Class G, which I believe is only a tacit recognition of reality everywhere (including the USA ;) )
LimaRomeo
4th Feb 2007, 09:37
My personal reason for getting FAA PPL (and not JAA) is that I fall outside JAA vison standards. Rules are: max -8 dioptries and I have -9.5 in one eye. So there you have it... WIth my glasses/lenses, I have a better eyesight than some of my friends who don't wear correction. Still, I can not fly an airplane, even is my glasses correct me to perfect 100% sight. Strange...
FAA is much more pragmatic on the vision thing: if you have normal sight with glasses, it's ok for them.
LR
Lower the Nose!
4th Feb 2007, 14:30
And it's a lot cheaper. If you're not bothered about night or instrument flying you can happily fly VFR in the UK, microlights as well as 'Group A' stuff, on your FAA certificate without handing over half your life savings to the CAA in medical fees, test, re-tests, minimum hours and the rest.
Their argument being that if glasses/lenses were to be dislodged, you wouldn't see a thing
However, that would be the case for anything exceeding -2 or -3. Beyond that, you probably won't find your glasses if you dropped them. I know this from people at work. One has to carry a spare pair in one's pocket, and once you do that, any amount of correction should be acceptable.
I am sure the medical bit of the CAA finds this kind of thing very provocative. Their jobs depend on these rules.
LimaRomeo
4th Feb 2007, 20:34
Interesting to see how my original question (Fly FAA PPL in Spain) has grown into a discussion about aviation vison standards ... :rolleyes:
Anyway, LASIK can't help me to get my JAA Medical since they look at the refraction error BEFORE the surgery. Can anyone explain me this?? Anyone???
Basicly, to wrap up this discussion: my only chances of flying are with the FAA PPL and that's why I opt for 'The American way'. I know a couple of N-reg-A/C's not so far (1h drive) from where I live (Belgium), so it'll do. And maybe, in a few years, I'll buy or co-buy me a small piece of machinery and put it on the N-register.
And as for flying in Spain, I'll start writing some clubs/FBO's there and tell them my plans. See what they have to say. By the way, there MUST be N-reg single engines as well in Sunny Spain, no?
Cheers!
LR
englishal
5th Feb 2007, 08:09
I used to have letters from:
The French (DGAC)
The Germans
The Danish
Stating that I was ok to fly a G reg with an FAA licence in their airspace. Their reason was that because the UK allowed me to fly the aeroplane, they would too.
An interesting quirk was that had I not been an EU resident, the DGAC would NOT have allowed this BUT would have issued me a full JAA licence and IR to fly F registered aeroplanes because I held an FAA IR - no formality required other than a bit of paperwork (Prehaps you should do this SoCal?).
The best thing to do is write to the individual authorities and get it in writing.
Their reason was that because the UK allowed me to fly the aeroplane, they would too
IMHO, under ICAO, they have no choice but to allow it. Otherwise, a US 747 captain could not fly an N-reg 747 into the same places.
An interesting quirk was that had I not been an EU resident, the DGAC would NOT have allowed this
I wonder how they get away with that. They have no right I know of to restrict privileges in a G-reg according to where in the world the pilot lives. AIUI each ICAO state can prevent its own nationals (not sure whether this means residents or citizens; I am still looking for the ICAO reference for this) exercising the privilege of a foreign license in their own airspace, so the DGAC could prevent a French national flying on any license other than a French one (or presumably a JAA one) in French airspace.
My vague recollection of this is that the French allow an FAA PPL/IR to fly an F-reg, IFR unrestricted, so long as he is not a French citizen or resident, and for a limited period. JAA restricts this validation period to one year (I do have a ref for it somewhere). That sort-of makes sense then. But they can't go beyond that.
LimaRomeo
5th Feb 2007, 12:46
A US (FAA) Captain of an N-reg Boeing can fly wherever he wants, just as I (FAA PPL) can fly wherever I want with an N-reg. The real question is: can I (FAA PPL) fly in Spain or France with a G-reg a/c? Let's say the US (FAA) Capt is flying a D-aircraft over France. Would that be tolerated?
As for France: I know a Dutch Pilot who flies a F-reg a/c with a FAA PPL. This is according to what is mentioned earlier: you can fly with a FAA PPL on a F-reg plane if you're not a resident and for VFR only. The thing is that I recently wrote the French about this but they said I had to convert FAA -> JAA. I wrote back and told them what I am writing here, but all I got is silence since then.
A US (FAA) Captain of an N-reg Boeing can fly wherever he wants, just as I (FAA PPL) can fly wherever I want with an N-reg. The real question is: can I (FAA PPL) fly in Spain or France with a G-reg a/c? Let's say the US (FAA) Capt is flying a D-aircraft over France. Would that be tolerated?
It is up to the UK CAA to decide what privileges, if any, the holder of another ICAO license has in a G-reg, and this is the case no matter where the G-reg goes. This is no different to him having a UK license, once the ICAO license has been validated by the UK CAA.
It is up to the "German CAA" to decide what privileges, if any, the holder of another ICAO license has in a D-reg, and this is the case no matter where the D-reg goes. This is no different to him having a German license, once the ICAO license has been validated by the German CAA.
Etc. That's my understanding, anyway.
As for France: I know a Dutch Pilot who flies a F-reg a/c with a FAA PPL. This is according to what is mentioned earlier: you can fly with a FAA PPL on a F-reg plane if you're not a resident and for VFR only.
That is probably in accordance with what I heard previously, for what that is worth.
The thing is that I recently wrote the French about this but they said I had to convert FAA -> JAA. I wrote back and told them what I am writing here, but all I got is silence since then
That doesn't mean anything - unlike the UK CAA, the DGAC is terribly disorganised. Myself and others have spent months chasing after a person capable of generating a simple piece of paper for a Socata aircraft. For example I am sure a lot of people in the DGAC take one look at a communication and if it is not in French they bin it. You've got to be a fluent French speaker and get on the phone to them and escalate the matter to the top. Their switchboard is French only and all the time one calls them in English, even if asking for a person by name, they tend to hang up (my experience from 2005).
LimaRomeo
5th Feb 2007, 15:03
IO540: I wrote the DGAC an email in french. I'm from Belgium and speak Dutch/French/English. Still no reply :\. I see what you mean with saying it's a big chaos over there.
So at this time, we know for sure that FAA PPL holders can fly;
- N-reg all over the world (obviously)
- G-reg outside UK airspace, based on the principle that it's the CAA that decides who can fly British a/c's
- PH-reg (Holland) only in Holland and VFR if you are not Dutch Resident.
I'll keep you posted
LR
172driver
5th Feb 2007, 20:21
First a word to the mods: what happened to the quote function here ?? Pain having to copy and paste.....:=
Back to the thread: LR, I know southern Spain pretty well and AFAIK you're out of luck with an N-reg there. There simply is not enough demand (in the words of one FTO/FBO owner). The only place I could imagine you might find one would be Rota airbase (LERT), if they have a flying club. Now, if you could just walk up and rent from them in the current security climate, I somewhat doubt.....
That said, I suggest you post the same query on the Spanish forum, these chaps are from all over the place and may know of an N-reg. The - sad - truth of the matter is that most European CAAs (whatever they are called locally) take a very dim view of anything with a big N on the tail. The UK really is the exception here. You will therefore mainly find N-reg as privately owned (i.e. not for hire) around Europe, at least in my experience.
Now, there is one thing you say in an earlier post that the Spanish would refuse the certificate of recognition. Have you checked this ? AFAIK this is incorrect, although the situation may have changed recently.
On a completely different note - have you considered flying Microlights ? While I admit to not having the foggiest idea about the licensing requirements, this seems (from all I hear) a lot easier and some of these machines can fly rings around the spamcans I and many others here fly. Just a thought.
One Q on some earlier posts: if say France bans its nationals from exercising the privileges of an FAA IR in French airspace, what happens if a Frenchman gets a job with a US airline which happens to fly to France?
I imagine nobody is ever going to find out, but that's not the question :)