Barcelona Runway TO/Ground Close call

[Mach trim]

Anyone know more about an incident two days ago in Barcelona on the morning of the 31st Jan.

A Clickair 320 cleared for Take Off and a Vueling 320 cleared to cross 25 R.
Apparently a close call.
With the Vueling slamming on the brakes avoiding collision with the Clickair!

There seems to be a lot of Errors by the Barcelona controllers.
We all make Errors and are human but what concerns me is that ATC is not admitting they making this many in Barcelona. The Error management.

Barcelona is not alone, of course.

A lot to be said for the " Clear left and right calls".
ATC will have to improve as they expand. It is a training location for ATC but..

[TE RANGI]

Although I haven't heard about the incident you mention, I must say I fully agree with your comments regarding Barcelona ATC.

A high increase in traffic with such a poor quality ATC should raise some flags. Both Barcelona and Madrid are time bombs unless a corrective action is taken immediately. This is a view shared by many colleagues, from different outfits.

So a word of caution, guys. Be extremely careful in those places, an do report your incidents. A crash waiting for a chance. Hope time proves me wrong, but not very sure about it.

[Ashling]

I've always found it alarming that ATC frequently speak in Spanish and issue clearances in it. Much like France and Italy except of course they don't do it in Spanish.

It really cuts down on SA especially in LVPs. Why have the regulators allowed it to continue after bitter and tragic experience with ground collisions.

[unablereqnavperf]

I whole heartedly agree Barcelona is the next big European Accident scene. I was nearly involved in an accident there last year almost got landed on by a TU154 on taxiway S. The SA of the controllers is not helped by their poor qaulity English combined with their insistence on speaking Spanish to spanish carriers even if the crew is not Spanish. Its high time that IALPA declared Barcelona and Madrid as black star airspace!
I'm sure glad I do not operate in there as often as I used to!

It would help the situation as well if they did not give such obvious preferance to Iberia and other Spanish carriers!

[hetfield]

I whole heartedly agree Barcelona is the next big European Accident scene.

Yes, that's what I think too.

Last year I was three times subject of poor separation on approach. No speed control by ATC at all! One ended in a go-around.

ATC is very strange there, sorry girls/guys.

[basil faulty]

I have to operate into both these places at least once a week and the ATC is shocking. I agree, it would not suprise me if the next big one in Europe will probably be Madrid or Barcelona!

[Mach trim]

I totally agree with you guys.

Are there any ATC types out there who could these guys in Barcelona.

It seems as though there's some serious ATC training issues. As the standards seem different to say Amsterdam.

Perhaps there are some cross cultural issues with AENA ( Spanish airports )
related to Spanish pride and unions.

On the good side, Spanish controllers are easy going, adaptable and not vindictive when you make an error.

We are in the EU but not it seems with ATC. This is why you never a British, German or Dutch voice in Spain and visa versa.

Has it got to the point where National pride and the Unions are interfering with safety ?

[TE RANGI]

Mach Trim,

I don't have the answers to all your questions, but I'm sure some Spanish cultural traits do play a role here.

OK, Barcelona ATC may be just a huge training facility for ATCOs. Problem is, judging by their poor standards, what's the level of the trainers themselves? Blind leading the blind? And while they are at it, we play for real, real planes, live pax.

And likewise for Madrid, very complex airspace and procedures, poor level of English, non adherence to ICAO phraseology standards, simultaneous use of Spanish and English and often appalling ATC standards they all combine to make those places downright dangerous.

TCAS is my most important instrument in those places and so I brief my F/Os.
About time the regulators, IFALPA and the airline associations took action. Before someone (maybe one of us) gets killed.

[Flightman]

I'm only SLF but some of the comments above really worry me, as a pax. :\
If the next "big one" is in Barcelona, or Madrid, then any journo reading this thread will have a field day.
"Pilots knew of ATC errors" and "Pilots too scared to speak out, months/years before accident" You can just see the headlines. :eek:
Hasn't anybody flagged this up the chain? ( If indeed there is a chain? )

[Farrell]

In relation to the language problems in Spain and other countries around the world.....this situation is presently being addressed by ICAO and the aviation authorities in each ICAO state.

By March of next year, certain standards will have to be met. ICAO has set out six levels of proficiency and both pilots and ATCOs will need to reach Level 4 in a number of different areas.

There is a big drive on at the moment to help airlines and authorities to bring their employees up to standard. I am not sure yet what not reaching the required standard on time will mean though.

For now, I'm just concentrating on teaching pilots and some ATCOs......


(Jerricho.....I'll be able to fit you in soon!)

[transilvana]

I am based in barcelona and you are right about ATC, poor preparation, controllers union is a real mafia, AENA is a disaster, CAA don´t care about safety only about airports with many stores so pax can spend there money. We are tired about incompetence on Spain ATC and CAA. I can tell you hundreds of stories about Spain, but lately this is a disaster.

[TimV]

Folks,

I'm flying into Barcelona later this year with my young son and you've worried me. Surely as a group you can express your concerns to the authorities? With so many of you expressing concern this is ridiculous. After all, as I've read here before, safety costs, but not as much as an accident.

Tim

[Flapping_Madly]

Is it only Madrid and Barcelona that give you guys the willies ?
How do the really bust holiday places like Alicante and Malaga rate.:eek:

[Flapping_Madly]

Sorry:O
Should have been "really busy airports", not really bust

[Ashling]

Although Malaga and Alicante present issue's with ATC both are single runway airfields and are less complex. Personaly I enjoy flying into them.

On good weather days I enjoy Barcelona and Madrid too as I can see whats going on around me. In poor weather it is a concern as its complex airspace and half the transmissions are in spanish. Barcelona is worse from my point of view as at Madrid I don't have to cross an active runway during taxi. Now they've switched to the inboard at Barcelona on most occasions things are a touch better there.

Tim we have raised it on many occasions. The regualtors are well aware of the crews views. I guess there are a few too many vested interests in the corporate world and in government. I am gobsmacked that after so many major incidents that speaking anything other than english is still allowed.

Good news what Farrell says though, I hadn't heard about that. As he points out though, what will happen if they don't come up to scratch.

[Del Prado]

By March of next year, certain standards will have to be met. ICAO has set out six levels of proficiency and both pilots and ATCOs will need to reach Level 4 in a number of different areas.

Not sure that'll help. Doesn't matter how good the level of english is if the controller chooses to speak to local pilots in the national language.

[flytelaw]

I am the Capt. of the Vueling flight in question. Since having started with Vueling I have had an almost daily "situation" with ATC in Madrid and Barcelona. Non standard phraseology is the norm and the insistence on many controllers to speak Spanish causes a loss of situational awareness. The fact that both myself and the F/O were fresh in on our shift, vigilant in our cross checks and extra careful when operating in LEBL meant that despite having an awkward viewing angle from taxiway "D" across R20, and being on Ground Frequency, we had enough time to stop before Click could have potentially hit us.

My initial feeling about this situation was, "oh, good grief not another unprofessional situation where pilots have to cover for poor ATC performance". I see no benefit in over analysing this matter. A revamp of the entire system is needed here and this matter should serve as a BIG wakeup call. I bear no malice nor harbor ill will to any one at ATC in Barcelona and only want a lesson to be learned here before another Tenerife type of disaster occurs.

Lets all keep the vigilence going and our heads up. I hope that once the investigation is done we will all see and benefit from a more professional approach to aviation in this part of the world.

Flytelaws

[Sean Dell]

The problem with not speaking Spanish is that I often do not know when the controller and whoever they are speaking to, have finished their conversation. It must get quite irritating when I cut in on top of them. Should I learn Spanish? :ugh:

I also find it quite useful on occasions with lengthy delays (Madrid in snow for example), to get a Spanish speaking member of the crew to listen on the P3 headset to exactly what is going on and who is getting what. It is always a revelation. Maybe it's me, but I think if you speak the lingo, you might be at a commercial advantage.

Safe flying everyone....

[sheldon6]

From reading this thread it would seem that there is geniune concern over the saftey of this airport / ATC in much the same way as there were concerns over the runway in Bristol. Why don't you vote with your feet / wings and boycot this airport until your concerns are addressed?

[calypso]

I am no apologist for spanish controlers, far from it, however it has to be said that Spanish is an ICAO aproved language and as such both pilots and controlers are perfectly entitled to use it. You may not like it but that is the way it is, you can lobby to have the rules changed. The rules are that if either party changes to english the other must also respond in english.

The language issue, that has been debated here soooo many times, I think is quite separate from poor discipline.

[Sean Dell]

Calypso - it may well be a ICAO approved language - but the practice (IMHO) which has caused fatal accidents in the past, is simply downright dangerous. If a controller can speak English to keep all operators in the loop (from a SA point of view) and chooses not to, then does that not show lack of discipline?

Board of Inquiry--- 'So Mr ATCO, do you think there might have been a better way to clear the A380 for take off, so that the Cessna ppl Pilot just might have understood that there might be a conflict ahead?'

ATCO---'non'

[fox niner]

Wrong calypso.

It is precisely very poor discipline not to speak English at internatonal airports like BCN or MAD. I don't mind them speaking Spanish at a local Extremadura airfield, but please.....

And it can be done. The Italians did it succesfully at FCO and MXP. Alitalia and Airone crews speak English to the controllers there....

[unablereqnavperf]

English is the international language of air transport and should be used at all major international airports full stop. Before anyone starts english is not my first language but its the one I use when I'm working.

As others have mentioned though the language issue is only a small part of the problem lack of dicipline and poor attitude is a much bigger issue, combined with not recruiting the correct people in the first place. It would also help if the controllers would be a little more discret when giving preferance to Iberia,Spanair and other Spanish carriers. Hands up all those that have been given a delaying vector around an Iberia flight!

Some SLF's have mentioned that pilots should flag this up i have personally filed at least 50 ASR's(air saftey reports) about poor atc in Spain,Italy and Greece all unfortunaley will be ignored until ther's a big disaster. ( Milan Linate for instance) I'm very pleased that easyjet took such a strong stand at Bristol and hope they may see this as a good opportunity to continue their good work in spain and Italy. However this may play straight into the hands of carriers based in these airports.

SLF's could also helps by not booking tickets to these destinantions until the situation improves!

[blackwidow]

despite having an awkward viewing angle from taxiway "D" across R20, and being on Ground Frequency, we had enough time to stop before Click could have potentially hit us.
Is it normal to cross an active runway whilst being on ground freq?:\ At LHR if you cross 27L/09R you have to switch over to tower then back to ground when instructed/clear of rwy.... :}

[Boneman]

I was looking forward to flying my first trip to BCN on Monday. Now I'm not so sure. :bored:

[flytelaw]

As the threads wind and develope from the initial thread, it must be noted that in our case, language was not the issue. Our taxi instructions were in English and it is our company SOP is to have all ops in English. Should ATC in Barcelona or Madrid speak Spanish, then, as a responsible Capt., I insist (and so do our able F/O's) that all communications be in English. This usually resolves the matter but sometimes it doesn't necessarily. (This issue is extraneous and exculpatory to the main issue.)

Regarding the issue as to what frequencies are used and when, let me clear this issue up once and for all. Each airport and each national jurisdiction has its own SOP's regarding the use of frequencies. This comes into the realm of Public International Law and each jurisdiction ratifies and puts into place its own safety and controls according to, and under the hospices of, the local authority. When JAA/JAR came about each country within the EU took home agreed pieces of the legislation. Built into the legislation is the ability to "customise" what is locally required by each signatory member. This has its ups and downs and is part of the reason why a honing of the system towards a new "harmonisiation" will occur soon under the JAA replacement. I hope this clears up the issue on what frequencies are used when and maybe some of the confusion regarding regional differences.

Thanks to all of you guys out there who take the time to care about this and other issues. It is you guys who drive the wheels of progress in aviation. My only thought is that it is great to exercise ones right to free speach but what is going to be done to effect change. In our case, I have written a report. The impact of this report and the pending investigation as well as the events that flow from this are yet to be seen. Lets hope some good flows. Stay vigilant and professional everybody and keep making the intellectual noise!

Flytelaw

[Kit d'Rection KG]

If you have issues with the use of local languages for local pilots, then you need to go and knock on ICAO's door.

Good luck.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Another ps:

Have you, Flytelaw, or anyone else interested, looked into a very near miss between an easyJet and a CSA 737 at LEBL a few years ago. All the lessons there, none of them learnt.

[Plumaveloz]

Hello there:
I work as an ATC at Valencia ACC. I am also involved on our main union, called USCA, Union Sindical de Controladores Aereos.
Barcelona and Madrid are both going through very big changes during the last two years. Colleagues at both facilities have been passing a quite stressing jobs during all this time, and it is not over yet. In Madrid, they built two new rwys, and got one out of use. They are now managing to get used to work with four rwys at the same time. Barcelona has just a couple of months started with its third ryw. Sorry to say, but there are a lot more things going on at the control tower that just the radio you hear, pointing out that the radio is the most important one: Trucks and operators walking along the taxiways, new equipment being installed, external workers not used to standar phraseology or aeronautical procedures, new facilities, computers and so not working properly as they are on the firsts day´s operation... No other major european airport has been having such a great number of changes on the past years. If you have time, I suggest you to visit those towers. I am quite sure that the controllers will be happy to show the way they work, and ask your questions. If you drop by in Valencia, I will do it for sure.
About the use of spanish and english, I agree with you. But many of us just can´t help feeling more confortable speaking on our mother tongue to pilots that also understand us better speaking on spanish. When english will be declared as the one and only aeronautical speaking language, this discussión will end, but that is a political question, I´m afraid.
And If the problems are so big or so dangerous, you can always make a report. Safety is a serious matter just to be spoiled out on an internet forum. TCAS RA´s unfortunately happen everyday all over Europe. Spain is not a significant country on this, or any safety related point, as established on the Performance Review Report http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/gallery/content/public/Docs/prr2005.pdf
I would like to say one last thing. Palma de Mallorca on summer time has bigger amount of traffic than Barcelona and very close to Madrid and I don´t hear too many complaints about the ATC work there. There is one reason for this: There has not been big changes on the lasts years. Controllers and pilots are used to procedures and operation goes fluent. Safety cannot wait, but try to apologise a little the ATC´s on Madrid and Barcelona and I am quite sure things will improve quickly.

About USCA, our Union, just mentioning facts: More than 95% out of the civil spanish controller are part of it. Our objetives are clear, but differences among us don´t show up to the public. This may lead on looking like Mafia, but there is not much we can do to help this out. Most of the people think we are overpaid and that we don´t work too much. It has become boring just to complain about it, so many times, we just give up on this. I just see aroung me people trying to do their jobs as good as they can... you can trust me.

Regards,
Á.

[Silvertop]

HI Plumaveloz,
you said
"But many of us just can´t help feeling more confortable speaking on our
mother tongue to pilots that also understand us better speaking on spanish. "
Unfortunately, many of us non-Spanish pilots when operating over Spain, feel very uncomfortable when conversations to other aircraft in our vicinity are being carried out in your "mother tounge" as it degrades everyones situational awareness.
also
"When english will be declared as the one and only aeronautical speaking language, this discussión will end, but that is a political question, I´m afraid."
No its a Air Safety Question I'm afraid.
Regards Silvertop

[RAT 5]

Fltelaw:

Not a critism, just a question.
Everyone seems to be confirming that things are not as they should be, and that the manure nearly impacted the ventilation. There also seems to be agreement that not a lot is happening to improve matters. Was the incident such that an MOR could be justified? If so, then an official complaint has been put in witing and the local CAA would have to investigate. Perhaps that could be the start of something, rather than concerned pilots sounding off on here to deaf ears.

BCL: Going into GRO on a thunderstorm day and deviating off the STAR to avoid. Instead of via Kanik I was in the area of BGR. 30-40 nm away from landing. BCL radar just dumped us to GRO, non-radar. First question from GRO was "state position". Not very professional. The only saving grace was we were the only a/c on frequency. maybe that was why BCL felo it OK to off load us so soon. I wonder what their attitude will be in the busy charter thunderstorm summer season? Not good.

[Plumaveloz]

Unfortunately, many of us non-Spanish pilots when operating over Spain, feel very uncomfortable when conversations to other aircraft in our vicinity are being carried out in your "mother tounge" as it degrades everyones situational awareness.
We are aware of this situation and there are times when we just use english for all communications, so everyone can understand everything. Besides that, let me point out that the first communications are usually began by pilots. If a pilot talks to me on spanish, he has an ICAO right to be answered on spanish. And I don´t want to begin and endless discussion, but If you flight often to Spain, I would suggest you can also learn a little spanish phraseology. I have audio files, both english and spanish, than can help. They are big ones, but I can share them via emule or so.
Regards,
Á.

[teleport]

I just see aroung me people trying to do their jobs as good as they can... you can trust me.

Plumaveloz, the operation/the system still seems to be deficient compared to other places. Either it gets fixed or it doesn't. Hope and/or good intentions is not enough.

[andrijander]

...still seems to be....
right, maybe it "seems" because some of you don't have a clue on what's going on? As you don't have the right awareness and all. I work in what is regarded as one of the best places to work (and that works). We still see things that could potentially go wrong all the time. Language in this cases is not an issue and I think here we should all try to adress other more potentially dangerous issues. For what I could read on the Plumaveloz's post there are plenty of them. It would be fair enough if spanish controllers would try to speak to you guys/gals in spanish: now that would be a safety issue. But that a controller wants to give a freq chg in spanish to a spanish crew...well, I guess it is indeed a killer -not with a big bang but seems that with some stomachache related endings.
Granted that you (I) just cannot sum up all situations but if a controller from there says that they use english when non-spanish are involved I take his word they do. And if they don't maybe it's because it has nothing to do with you?
Lets not forget that in the incident we all have in mind P1 overruled P2 and went on with T/O with an unclear instruction -which I hear all the time in english from many different countries. What I try to say here before you all start shooting -too late now I guess- is that common sense should prevail on both sides. After all english is not my mother tongue neither and speaking it won't stop me from f·&%ing it up.
Keep on with the bashing.
A.

[flytelaw]

To clarify, a report has been sent and received by Vueling from myself. A report will flow from our company management and out of that we can only hope that the Spanish DGAC will react.

If I deem it legally relevant, disclosable, and appropriate, I will post the results of the investigation. As a responsible lawyer and Captain, I will carefully review all disclosure for potential liability issues. Let's respect the system and await what flows.

Cheers,

Flytelaw

[Kraut]

Flying very often to BCN, I have no desire to learn spanish as pointed out by some spanish posters, as I believe English IS the Aviation language! Stressing always that spanish is a legal ICAO language does not help either.
Haven not seen any FCOM from Airbus in spanish, i.e.?

But, how come, that most of the SPANAIR pilots speak english when operating from BCN?
Looks to me, that they are professional enough to recognize the need of information to ALL pilots in the vicinity.:ok:
Nedless to say, IBERIA is not acting that way.:=
Having had a near miss due to a spanish only speaking controller and pilot, since this time I am very suspicous about "spanish conversations" in the air.

[andrijander]

Flytelaw,
all the best with the investigation and I'm sure we'd all love to hear from the results to learn what happened and how it can be avoided next time. Happy flying -and taxiing!!- in the meantime.

Kraut
it won't help. But that's what it is. Hate it or love it. You know, I grew up in Mallorca -Balneario 8 in El Arenal- and was told many times by germans, in german, that I should know german because I lived there? Of course you wouldn't but it wasn't pretty. Nowadays I understand it but I still refuse to speak it -I do speak Dutch though-. Maybe we should worry also about german being spoken on the waves in germany (I for one hear it everyday and it's not very ICAO compliant neither), french in france, italian in italy...or about some officers speaking/understanding better the english they use everyday (I use the broad meaning for officers as I would like to cover all personel in aviation from ground staff up to cockpit...don't get me started with some asian's english level) I insist there are way bigger evils out there to be catched. And I wouldn't even dare to defend the use of any other language than english AS LONG AS IT INVOLVES anybody who doesn't understand it and that someone is reasonably involved in a situation with the non english speakers -other than just being tuned to the same freq.


After all it seems to me that what this near incident goes on about is runway infringement -for whatever reason-. That seems to be number 1 on a lot of people's list as being the next potential disaster. I think we should all put more energy on how to stop that from happening. I insist it doesn't matter in which language you f·$% up as long as you do...
So can we now go back to what happened/what may be up in BCN? Other than that they speak whatever. That has been seen/discussed in other threads. Focus.


A.

[flytelaw]

I have a received a plethora of e-mails in the past few days and I am amazed by how positive the tone of them has been and I am also impressed how professional the relative tone of what goes on within at least this thread on PPrune. I will endeavour to to keep all of you fellows in the loop. Ciao!:D

Flytelaw

[alatriste]

On the 28 th of September 2006, AENA (spanish aerodrome operator) issued the following written recomendation: " Due to high traffic and characteristics of Madrd TMA the use of English is encouraged". Even though this recomendation was published by the spanish controler employer (AENA) most of the controlers donot comply with.
As Spanair crewmember I´m tired of speaking english and being replied in spanish, I ´ve even listen to a controler that "the spanish is very beatiful".
It is not just a question of language but attitude. No aviation Knowledge. No recurrent courses for all their profesional lifetime. No bosses.

[Aerostar6]

Just like to raise a point that seems to have been missed with the 'talking english' thrust of the thread. I agree with the general feeling about BCN ATC, but am a little surprised by their change in SOPs over the last few months.
When 25L first opened, all landing traffic was routed north then east along the parallel taxiway just south of 25R, then under the 25R undershoot, thereby completely avoiding a crossing of the active T/O runway. It was, admittedly a pain, adding perhaps 2-3 minutes to the sector. I loftily explained to my exasperated P2 that this was probably mandated for safety reasons:I was surprised to go back this summer and find that a straight northbound taxi routing and a crossing of 25R at the mid-point now seemed standard. Was this following a winge from the Lo-cos over taxi delays or something else?
Crossing an active runway on a GMC frequency has always struck me as unnecassarily risky, and a routing away from the active runway altogether seems a useful move where enough real estate is available.

[TE RANGI]

Well, the bottom line is that both Barcelona and Madrid are unacceptably dangerous at present. This view seem to be shared by the international pilot community and the airlines. Acknowledged by prestigious publications, such as Flywise (BA's flight safety magazine, and I quote: "...this is the kind of ATC we remained concerned about" just a few issues back).

There seems also to be a general consensus that this is due to:

a) Very complex airspace and procedures
b) Peaks of very heavy traffic
c) Simultaneous use of Spanish and English
d) Very poor ATC standards

Not necessarily in that order.

This being Spain, I have little faith that our reports would have much effect. If we get as much as a reply from the Spanish CAA, that is. Perhaps the airlines and their associations should take a much harder stand.

Plumaveloz:

Thank you for your invitation to visit Spanish ATC facilities, but why not make it the other way around, and have you guys visit other ATC facilities in say, the UK, Germany or Maastricht. If you were interested, I think I'm in a position to liaison a jump seat pass for you.

And sorry, but your suggestion that we all learn Spanish is ludicrous. Might as well learn Swahili for flying into Nairobi, or Russian (another ICAO approved language) for Moscow.

At least the weather is (usually) good in Spain.

[mikehammer]

I'm a little unsure what is being mooted as the cause here, was it an incorrect clearance given, or was it a correct clearance misunderstood because of the language in which it was issued?

Reading through this thread it sounds like two aircraft were cleared to be in the same place at the same time, and that the conflicting clearances were correctly understood. Does language have any bearing on this particular mistake, aside from the fact that it reduces awareness in general?

I agree that situational awareness will be improved with the use of a single common language (whatever that language may be), but a clearance is a clearance based on someone else controlling your situation. Situational awareness is secondary to this and a second line of saftey in the event of a mistake (not that I advocate the loss of situational awareness as a good thing, of course). Certainly it seems to have avoided disaster here, but although we are required to have safety in mind at all times, we do not expect a clearance to put us in the path of another aircraft. Otherwise what's the point in having a controler, and, without one, who is in control?

One last thing. It is confusing someone somewhere on the radio when two or more languages are used. That is very definitely a less safe situation than it might be, probably than it should be.

[Avman]

According to one of the pilots involved (see his posts) this incident was NOT because of a language problem. The bottom line was that TWR cleared one a/c for take-off whilst GND simultaneously cleared the other to cross the active (departure) runway. The error would be down to "frequency seperation". As a poster pointed out, LHR for instance, require a/c crossing active runways to do so on TWR frequency - a much safer procedure.

[Sonnendec]

So, it seems that ANY incident in BCN or MAD is enough to start the same insulting thread as usual, even if, like in this case, language has nothing to do with the subject.

Respect the laws, anglosaxon pilots, it´s not spanish controllers fault that spanish is an ICAO language. Where i work, Canarias ACC, english is used when an non-spanish pilot is involved in a situation that needs him to knw whats going on.

But tell me that speaking english to, for example, two spanish pilots on short final trying to make a sequence, so you can understand the "situation" from your seat parking the plane at the gate... well, that has another name either than safety concern.

And if you or your companies were really really concerned about safety and not about politics, maybe in your checklists they should include, as the things are right now, a short briefing about local phraseology (which is not at all like learning a language). Let´s start:

Lesson one:

Cleared to land: Autorizado a aterrizar
Cleared for take off: Autorizado a despegar

It doesnt seem so dificult really.

And it really upsets me when you talk about "spanish chatter" and some other ugly things i´ve read, since we are working, folks, not flirting or having a drink with the pilots. I hope you are doing the same inside the cockpit, and not wasting your time talking about how baaaaaad we are.

Hasta pronto.

[Kraut]

I just love the spanish attitude of some cotrollers in regard to teach the world the one and only language!. :ugh:
It is so professional!:eek:

[hetfield]

Cleared to land: Landung frei
Cleared for take off: Freigegeben zum Start

Very easy, indeed.

[Chilli Monster]

Sonnendec

If the standard of ATC at Barcelona (I speak as both an ATCO AND Corporate pilot) was up to scratch then dual language would not be a problem. However, it isn't, and they can't cope with it, so shouldn't be doing it. Unreasonable speed control requests, a belief that Vortex wake separation is is purely voluntary, not mandatory. Accent problems that cause real problems in ATC/Pilot comprehension (many of these people would NOT pass ICAO level 4, the minimum required - but I suspect that will be glossed over and they will be awarded it anyway so they keep their jobs).

This is not anti-Spanish, it's not xenophobic. You can fly to Germany, France, Holland, Belgium and feel safe. The same applies when I fly into Malaga - never have a problem there at all, very impressed with ATC. Fly to Barcelona, and the trust in the pilot / ATCO partnership is non existent - they are NOT up to the job.

[hetfield]

@Chilli

Very good summary, thx.

[Sonnendec]

Chilli, i dont work at BCN, but this topic is not about that at all. Read the posts above.

Hasta pronto.

[Chilli Monster]

but this topic is not about that at all. Read the posts above.

Umm - the thread title is...................................?

Most of the posts refer to.................................?

I think I've understood the thread quite well - have you?

[merlinxx]

How many more years do we have to hear these type of comments? This seems not to be the NATIONALISTIC SITUATION that it comes across as. This is about AIR SAFETY which has as much to do with ground ops as well as in the air. Is this not for JAA/EASA & Eurocontrol input? Please report all these through your carriers air safety dept., local CivilAir and national unions for action as high as you/we can take it. That's it had my say.

[Sonnendec]

Chilli, i was not talking about your post, but about all the others that make a whole pack out of a single incident saying all those things about the spanish control, the controllers and how bad bad bad we are.

Salud!

[Facto]

I work at LEBL TWR, and yes there is always room for improvement, can anyone say differently about their cockpit, CRM or daily operation?

I've been away a few days and I first knew about the Vueling incident from my colleagues. I really hope the investigation is as deep as necessary, for the sake of safety. If we've done something wrong we must learn from it.

Believe me when I say nobody crosses an active runway in Barcelona unless is cleared by the local controller of that runway or coordinated between both GND and Local ATCs. From what I hear the incident is a bit more complex, and I don't know exactly what happened so I won't extend on this issue.

We use Spanish only with those aircrafts that FIRST communicate with us in Spanish, and even then, if the instruction or clearance involves another aircraft, and has not communicated in Spanish or has not talked yet to that controller, the language used will be English.

I believe myself we should use English at all times, although is not mandatory by ICAO, I think it is safer and so much easier for everyone.

And no, not all Spanair pilots speak English to us, and those who do, sometimes call first in English, only to go to next freq on Spanish, which is a pain in the rear.

If you want to improve your SA, you don't need to learn Spanish, but believe me, spending 5 minutes with local AIP and charts goes a long way, and I'm afraid not everyone posting here has spend that much time on it. And remember, like it or not, Jeppesen is not official in Spain, make sure you have the official AENA ones or the latest (and I mean LATEST) Jeppesen. Madrid and Barcelona are growing rapidly and not everyone is keeping up with updated charts on board.

I am afraid I also have to speak about our (ATC) concerns about Vueling. And this is not the thread, nor revenge, so I'll be quick. Their operation in Barcelona has improved greatly, but for some unknown reason to us, it just seems like they have been diverted to Barcelona and act like Barcelona is nor their base. I mean, they seem lost with many basic procedures, like runway change configurations due to noise abatement procedures, parking stands, and so forth. Again, AIP can be very helpful.

I have to inform those of you that have not flown here lately that runway crossing is now only permitted when the runway to cross is not active. That means a 10-15 minute taxi for take off "around" 25R-07L, but a safer operation. Again, if you are so worried about flying here check AIP, charts and the info you are supposed to know before flying anywhere.

I doubt anyone read this far, but for those of you who did, let me tell you (once more) that we do not like Spanish carriers any better than you guys. Like the old ATC jokes goes, we hate you all the same. (A Joke). I know you feel pushed away from the LLZ just to see 10 IBE planes rushing ahead, or giving way on the ground to 5 JKKs, but believe me it's all in you head. It goes like this: Non Spanish carriers think Spanish carriers go first in our priority, but some Spanish operators feel the same regarding bigger Spanish operators. It is just not true and a childish discussion. Could it be that whoever flies more to Spain has more planes on the LLZ ahead of you? IBE, EZY, AFR, etc?

I again encourage you to come visit us in the TWR or my colleagues at the ControlCenter. And I personally try to get the best out of you guys and my other ATC colleagues around the world whenever I have the chance to visit them in my trips. I'm the kind of freak that carries my Air band radio on all my trips to see how other ATC and pilots do in different environments.

[Kraut]

FACTO

A very well balanced posting!:ok:

Just one word: most pilots do not have the opportunity to check out the AIP! We have to rely on the documents supplied by the operator, not including i.e. the AIP.

[Mach trim]

Facto, Right On!! In my humble opinion you are on the money! but.....
" A CHAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK "
Forgetting about language...

Barcelona's whole system is archaic. There are latent errors in the system.
Why is Barcelona still a training facility ?

There are controllers in BCN and Madrid who are not up to the standard and have no business being there.
I am sorry but in many ATC centers, as you know when such errors are made,they are pulled. Not in Barcelona.

:ugh: If you cannot take the heat get out of the kitchen.
They have to be good, better and sharper than us pilots. We are concerned with 1 airplane . You have how many ?
With a quick mind and that ability to make those quick calculations.
In BCN The vectoring proficiency combined with speed control is not effective, now let us throw in a Thunderstorm with inexperienced pilots who may need someone to hold their hand.

The BCN Ground is dangerous. Ground will have to help unfamiliar pilots as in any airport.

You know it's true as you have seen how the Airspace is run in busier airspaces for example the New York area, simpler and more effective.

The AIP is not user friendly and easy to read ( or please show me the AENA link as I have been to the site.)

We both need greater discipline both pilots and controllers. I will be happy to visit the tower. We need to raise the standard.

I have heard some really good controllers and these people are amazing, masters of their universe.

We need this in Barcelona.
And will be talking to you soon..
P.S. FACTO---off the topic thread !! ( please respond on a new thread )
( 1. Your comments to Vueling new hire pilots are completely unrelated to this incident and should be on another post. But in the future ....
As the Vueling Capt. did well but we do not have the report.
Vueling As a rapidly growing company that is one of the lowest paid companies and not good conditions is constantly losing pilots ( to Clickair and... )

With a high turnover Vueling management does not care about losing experienced pilots, to save money, but it will cost them in the safety margin factor. They calculated that it is cheaper to train people. The CEO has made it his policy to keep pilots on low pay.

What he has to learn is what the cost of an incident is. Unfortunately.

Most likely the incident will involve an inexperienced crew.
One link in the chain with the other being ATC.

There a lot of new pilots to BCN maybe 20-30, so they too will make mistakes as they undergo training in this training airline.

There are a number of new contract pilots from France, elsewhere and ones coming from Madrid.They are flying a 100 hours a month a lot of sectors and do get tired. They get burnt out, then fresh contractors are brought in. The contractors are paid more than the Vueling pilots.
Many are experienced but some are not at all as Captains.

How many hours can you work as controllers ?
Are a lot of you working overtime ?

[Boneman]

I departed BCN today for the first time. It seems they are back to routing aircraft around the end of 25R to get to 25L. Yes, it may add some time, but it is inherently more safe. I wish I had 10-9 page in front of me; however, I'll say the ground controller issued taxi instructions which did not include the taxiway around the end of 25R. As the Captain and I were both first timers at BCN I asked for clarification from the ground controller who probably thought the route was obvious to a regular user. Other than that I thought the whole operation was stellar. Much easier than a lot of the other European airports we fly into. As I've always said, from ORD to EWR to LGW and all airports in between, taxiing is the most inherently dangerous thing we do.

[TE RANGI]

Sonnerdec,

If you ran a poll among airline pilots in Europe (Spanish included), there's very little doubt that Spain would rank at the very bottom in terms of ATC quality, and that includes the Canary Is too. Sorry, no disrespect intended, but it is a fact that there are systemic errors that may bring risk to an unacceptable level. We are talking airline safety here, no less. Do you really think everybody is biased against you and you are the victims of an Europeanwide difamatory complot? Do yourself a favour, why don't you pay a long, careful visit to other ATC units before proclaiming you are as good as anybody else?

Facto,

Your enthusiasm shows through your first post, and I bet you are doing your job professionally. However, you must concede that you are the odd one out in Barcelona. How many of your colleagues, most of them coming from other trades, endeavours or interests take the same professional attitude? And how many of them take quite an opposite, relaxed approach that is more typical of government officials?

Your enlightening paragraph about the AIP governing in Spain is quite naïve. AIP is the official publication everywhere, not just Spain. Jeppesen, or other providers are but an improved version of the official publication and cover everything that's on the AIP. The problem of pilots not knowing your latest lies somewhere else: change upon change, nonsense upon nonsense...:ugh:

To all Spanish speaking buffs,

Air Maroc uses English in Morocco (although French is an ICAO approved language). That sort of pinpoints Spain position in a wider context. If a pilot or controller are not able to use English in every possible situation they have no place in the cockpit/ATC. There's too much at stake for nationalistic frivolities.

[Facto]

Kraut,
Thanks but do not rely blindly on the documents supplied by the operator if you feel there is something missing. Ask for updates whenever you see there is a deficiency on the information supplied. I’ve had pilots on the phone apologizing for a mistake, arguing that this or that procedure was not on their Jeppesen charts. NOTAMs are as well of vital importance.

Mach trim,
I just cannot agree with you about Barcelona whole system being archaic. I doubt there are many other major airport out there updating their procedures and rethinking them on a constant base like we do here.

We have constant political pressures, even contradictory at times, and we have to change procedures due to noise abatement issues and new infrastructure all the time. That means thinking all over again what the safest operation can be with the tools (taxiways, systems, etc) we are provided with.

If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures.

I also have to let you know that Barcelona is not a training facility. There is just not such case in Spain. There has been a humongous traffic growth of over 200% from 1992’s 10 million pax to more than 30 million last year, and that can only be coped with a fresh batch of controllers every few months. So has Barcelona a fear amount of new controllers? Yes, that’s why on top of the instruction and simulator training given at the ATC school, local training is a BIG issue here.

Another statement to be discussed is BCN ground being dangerous. Really, have you taken a look at the taxi procedure in place now at Barcelona? It just cannot get any simpler. We have reduced the taxiway “knots” and conflicts to minimum levels. As I said on my first post, taxi time for departure has been increased, but with less interference, and arrival taxi is short and easy. I encourage you to check AIPs online. AENA’s is hosted here, and it’s as easy (or difficult?) as any other, believe me.
http://www14.aena.es/csee/Satellite?cid=1078418725020&pagename=AIS%2FHome_AIS&SMO=1&SiteName=NavegacionAerea&Section=1&c=Page&MO=2〈=EN_GB (http://www14.aena.es/csee/Satellite?cid=1078418725020&pagename=AIS%2FHome_AIS&SMO=1&SiteName=NavegacionAerea&Section=1&c=Page&MO=2&lang=EN_GB)

And again, if you guys have any question, remember to always get the question out of the cockpit. Sounds silly uh? Well, you’d be amazed of how many phone conversations we have on the phone with pilots after a screw up, only to find out charts on board were not updated, NOTAMs not read and questions solved inside the cockpit. This is especially dangerous when pilots are not familiar with the airport. I have only had 3 pilots (!) on my frequency stating “unfamiliar with the airport”. We need to know that. Sometimes you can tell because of the hesitation on a pilots voice after an instruction, but it is not always the case, so speak up!

Regarding friendliness of AIP, like Te Rangi said, it is common to every airport and it follows standards and recommended practices of Annex 15 (ICAO Doc. 8126) and charts are in accordance with Annex 4 (ICAO Doc.8697). AIP might not be the friendliest aviation document, but most if not all the information contained is of vital importance. There might be other publications that summarize, reorganize and simplify information regarding an airport, but I doubt they provide information not contained in the official documentation.

And Te Rangi, we might rank low on your polls, but thanks to threads like this, where some people throw stuff without knowing the facts we get a worse image than deserved. It’s always easy to jump on the lynching wagon, specially when uninformed. We do have to improve, I said that before, but a lot of the damaged image comes from rumors and comments like some of the ones posted here.

Facts and figures do not support your statement about being much worse that other ATC units, specially considering the rapid growth and constant work in progress at the airfield.

One last thing. Issuing a clearance in Spanish does not imply we aren’t able to use English at all times. It is not being nationalistic, it is just applying ICAO regulations. To speak to the traffic using your official local language (if he wishes to and the language is ICAO approved) or English by default.

And I’m not sure about Morocco, but I think that even though French is widely used, even in some official documents, it is not an official language (somebody correct me), and therefore, cannot be used in Morocco as an ICAO language. In spite of that, yes, widespread use of English whenever there is a non Spanish speaking aircraft is safer. Period.


For those willing to know more about LEBL new procedures, here’s a link to the summarized version of the information provided to the companies operating to/from Barcelona. Worth checking I think.
http://www.copac.es/webCopac/nueva/areas/ANAMA/Triptico%20LEBL-26-oct2006.pdf

[Mach trim]

Facto,
Thank you for taking the time to write that post, it is much appreciated.
Just the facts,exactly.

"If Barcelona had a problem, believe me it would not be it’s “archaic” system. Nothing remains the same here for more than 3 months. Maybe just the opposite, the always-evolving procedures."

If one of the ATC bosses in BCN think that "the always-evolving procedures"
are a constant improvement he/she is mistaken.

As the procedural changes are not a continual improvement and sometimes make matters worse.

Why makes things more complicated ?

Why throw another variable into the equation ?


Yes there is a lot of construction going on and NOTAMs but ....

We are not reinventing the wheel here and this is something for Europe in general. Too much red tape. Simpler is safer in my humble opinion.



Hasta luego y buen servicio.:ok:

[walkirie]

How about the most used ATC sentence in Spain?
There is one that gets the first prize, the famous "station calling say again", which gives you the idea that the controller has a problem understanding english or he/she is taking care of other things instead of doing his/her job.

[Plumaveloz]

which gives you the idea that the controller has a problem understanding english or he/she is taking care of other things instead of doing his/her job.

Or It can be due to one of the following things:

- The pilot doesn´t speak good english or misses his own callsing.
- The plane has been transferred to a wrong sector. This happens often when changing from one ACC to another.
- The plane is transferred too early, so the controllers doesn´t have its flight plan strip.
- The plane is trasferred with a wrong squawk number, so the radar cannot identify it.
- The plane is trasferred too late, and the flight plan has been finished by the system. No data about that callsign.
- The controller is having problems with the strip printer, or the mic, or the speaker, or one of the many monitors and systems we have around.
- He/she is just coordinating some fact to a fellow. This takes us a whole lot of time and It is the main reason we don´t answer communications at the first time.
- The controller was not looking at the screen because he was putting a flght strip on its holder, or he is cleaning the bay off old flight stripes.
- A duty swift has just happened or it is happening at that time.
- Believe me or not, we hear the radio on a poorer way than pilots. We are able to transmit/receive through various aerials, but we are usually located even hundreds of miles away from them. Ground transmisions, usually using cables or microwave signal have its own lack of signal and undermines the quality.

And, of course, not paying attention and being absent-minded is also possible. After all, we are not machines... yet.

Thinking that we do not respond on the frecuency because we are not doing our job properly shows that you haven´t ever visit a control facility or that you just didn´t care too much the day you were there.

Á.

[Danny]

Plumaveloz, thank you for your concise and relevant posts. Please don't fall into the trap of being baited by those who generalise without being able to back up their statistics* with valid information other than the fact that they have heard something a few times, or worse still, their mates have heard a few times.








*87.35% of statistics are made up on the spot!

[groc]

Dear Á:
Please do not feed the troll.
Regards.

[toro01]

I have read loads of pathetic, xenophobic, agressive, arrogant comments in this post, enough nonsense!!

I fly out of Barcelona every day and not a single problem in 2 years.You have to keep your eyes and ears open as everywhere. May be it is because I have been flying all over the world and I have been involved in all kind of enviroments.Therefore I am flexible to different ATC's and I am aware that even with London ATC you can have RA's as you do.Have you flown into Paris? What percentage of english do you hear?
Have you ever flown to the States? Would you consider the aeronautical english there pretty ICAO standard? Even the UK has its own particular phraseology!!(no regrets)The use of English doesn't guarantee anything if it is not the right sentence

I have been flying from Indonesia to Argentina and surprises me how nervous you are to the point of saying that a big accident may happen in BCN and MAD. That is absolutely over the top The only explanation I can find is the short mind that many of you are showing.You go outside Europe and you will change your mind, mate!! that is scary!!

[JToledo]

I only very recently got the en-route rating for LECB, but I would like to bring a point about the language debate to the table which I feel has not been brought up yet.
First let me stress that I am all for the use of English only, and I would support local legislation that would make it mandatory. But! You guys have to understand that our job, much like yours but probably even more so, is all about juggling priorities. We need to safely climb you and descend you while we make sure you don't see much of each other, and we do that by making use of the resources available. One of those is radio time, and it is extremely scarce.

It is a sad fact of life that all too often when I've made a transmission in English to an IBE or AEA crew, said transmission has been missed, and I've had to do it again in Spanish. And here is where I have to prioritize.

It's true that SA is very important to you, and I will make sure that any communication that may involve a foreign carrier will be made in English for everyone's benefit. But if I need to give a clearance to one of the said carriers which does not affect other traffic I will do it in Spanish. And that for everyone's benefit as well. Because had I had to repeat it I may have had the chance to give you, say, a descent clearance, and just then a colleague initiates an urgent coordination via the hotline, while at the same time two traffics are checking in, which requires an acknowledgement lest they complaint about unresponsive ATC, so that by the time I can clear you for descent it's a minute too late. And that minute too late is just enough that what would have been a simple descent is now a potential conflict with a established traffic coming the opposite direction, which requires extra attention from me which I could have used somewhere else.

As I said, I would rather have the DGAC force all communications in English, so that I could expect that Spanish aircrews were more likely to answer on the first call, but nowadays it is simply not so.
Given, I'm talking about en-route, where SA is not as much of an issue as in the TMA, and traffic situations where two crews need to have the same picture are comparatively rare. But I would think that in the TMA, a single lost call can create even more trouble.

As usual, these things are a lot easier shown than explained, so I would hope that more of you came to the ACC so that we can show you.

Hope I have cleared things up a bit.

Cheers,
Juan.

[Johnny Redd]

I have no axe to grind. This was received today by a line pilot, is posted verbatim and will be CHIRPED.......

"Yet another exciting incident at LEBL yesterday .
On the approach to 25R at about 8 miles we noticed an airliner fairly close to us joining the approach ahead of us.

A small amount of wake turbulence was experienced and we were informed that we were number 2 to an Airbus 319 TWO miles ahead and 30 knots SLOWER than the 180 knots we had been asked to maintain.
Despite querying this in the hope that perhaps an orbit in the CAVOK conditions could be carried out to ensure proper separation nothing was fortcoming from ATC so a go around was commenced from about 2000 ft.
ATC seemed surprised at this, no doubt looking forward to a display of low level aerobatics. but an uneventful missed approach and subsequent landing was carried out.
On departure after the 5 mile taxi to 25L behind a Premier 1 we were instructed to line up "after the lining up aircraft". Or was that "after the landing aircraft". Difficult to tel with a strong Spanish accent and ATC in Spanish to Spanish aircraft not giving us a full picture. I know 25L is not normally used for landing but at lebl........?????
We read back "cleared to line up and wait behind the departing 'company name' aircraft" which produced no adverse response from ATC.
At least this time they did not advise us of the next frequency when at about 80 knots on the take off roll like they did last week.

Always an exciting time at Barcelona."

[Mach trim]

There are changes again tommorow in Barcelona that are in the AIP of AENA and the changes may not yet be on your new Jepp, EAG charts yet.

I have not had time to look them up.

Have a look at AENA's link above RE AIP

Could someone more informed post more.

Something about the use of 20/02 again ?

[calypso]

Is amazing, foreigners do not speak english as well as the brits, a poor vector leading to a go around at 2000'. A controler used a not approved word (thankfully he was promptly corrected). Shock, horror....

Get real guys. ATC in Barcelona has some room for improvement, granted. But you fly abroad and seem shocked to find out that people do not speak your language as well as you do, like to do things a little different and even speak their own (ICOA aproved) language among themselves. In fact they seem altogether foreign. It seems nobody here has ever flown past the Swiss border... I wonder how would you cope flying anywhere past Moscow, Turkey, The Med....

It always makes me smile when a controler clears a UK aircraft to FL1-0-0
and the reply comes slightly condescending "clear FL One hundred". Not aware apparently that this is a UK filed difference and not standard ICAO RT? A bit more respect for the rules and ways of doing things of the countries we visit is in order. Yes they are different but it is also their country.

This in no way means that BCN TAC is perfect or that there is no room for improvement, far from it. Is just gets to me the ugly Johnie foreigner bashing slant of this thread.

[toro01]

I agree 100% with you calypso!!! A bit of common sense and less narrow minders

[Johnny Redd]

Okay guys. Hows your take on getting a A319 vectored 2 miles in front of you when you've been told to maintain a speed way in excess of that aircraft and you fly into its wake..............................

This is not about nationalities, its about safety.

[Mach trim]

Flying into Barcelona Last Night heard Lufthansa on the radio stating they had a Resolution Advisory and that they would make a report.

The controller seems to have been pulled,afterwards.

Yeah, and this is normal, with good weather,right.

For your info. BCN.

" Preferential runway configuration during night (23:00 to 07:00 LT) is going to change with effective date 15-Feb-07.

This change affects the East Configuration. From now on, arrivals will be
performed on RWY 02, with a new ILS procedure available, and departures from
RWY 07R.

In case RWY 02 is not available for landing, then West configuration (25L
for arrivals and departures) will be used.

Please strictly follow the missed approach procedure in order not to overfly
El Prat city, and commence the turn after crossing RWY 25R/07L.

ATC will apply 6 NM separations (it doubles the current value) and a speed
restriction of 160 Kt will be introduced up to 4NM in final.

Please note that this change will not be included in the EAG cartography
until it will be officially published in the Spanish AIP.