LOSA observers at EK

[chinawladi]

So we will get LOSA observers testing us later this year. Nothing threatening, I 've run through similar programs earlier. No negative but just as much no positive outcome could be felt. They could be individually refused aswell.
For my part I will refuse this time. Not that it would matter to me, but I still can't take my missus on the jump and this would be lightyears more important to me than any observer.
Maybe other collegues coincide with this grading and that could make someone think................:bored:

[uplock]

If the company are looking for problem areas then place the LOSA guys on the 4 sector DXB-DOH-DXB-DOH with the change of aircraft in the middle and the departure late evening, or any other 4 sector late night departure flights.


If the LOSA guys are not placed on the Flight Deck following Crew B around the traps as they do the DXB-SYD-CHC-SYD-DXB or the DXB-MEL-AKL-MEL-DXB then this LOSA exercise will be a token effort from our Management and will fall a long way short of providing an accurate representation of what is happening on our fleets.

If this LOSA group study is as effective as the Fatigue Committee then you can bet your left one sweet F all will happen

[Vorsicht]

That LOSA letter is too funny.

"A passenger seat will be booked for the observer so that he can get some rest"

Aaaaahahahahahahahah.

I can see the company is rightly concerned about the risk of an observer making a critical error while ticking boxes on his form as he reaches the end of a tiring back of the clock turnaround.

As for the other two poor bastards doing the approach, who gives a toss.

I am continually impressed by this companies blatent disregard for its crews.

Looks like the LOSA observers might have a slightly stronger union than us. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

V

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Unfortunately the jumpseats according to company policy are not availiable unless its to GCAA or check training Captains. So ins in your interest to reject these people as per FOM and that way you will score a 5 for the company. CX do let people in the jump seat.
If the company relaxes the jumpseat rule in May then i should be able to offer my wife the other seat, or is the company too **** scared shell give me a blowjob inflight................

[halas]

Wow! You still get 'em! :eek:

I'm impressed :(

halas

[specimus]

must be newly weds

[Dirigible]

15th May and LOSA is scheduled to begin. Despite all the rhetoric and perceived benefits given on the crew portal, until the jumpseat policy is revised I will not be participating. I trust the promise of no punitive action will be honoured, but then again I've been lied to before here....

[GMDS]

I'm in for that:
NO JUMPSEAT AUTHORITY -- NO LOSA OBSERVER. :=:=:=:=:=

GMDS

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

I was Losa'd 2 weeks ago, i don't think Ed's got the start date correct in his diary.
I don't see what you guys problem is, if there maybe a chance(?) of a change to some of the dafter SOP's, then all the better. You can turn it down, if it makes you feel better. The jumpseat is the companies, yes it should be the skippers perogative, but its not :mad: :mad: I know for a fact that AAR approved a change, but them upstairs, ie. Timmy C would not. Seems he was miffed at his offspring being bumped a while back.

SyB :zzz:

[SubsonicMortal]

Pardon my ignorance guys - I'm not from EK.

What is this all about? What is LOSA observers?

[point8four]

Line Orientated Safety Audit - check your PM. developed by the brainiacs at Univeristy of Texas.

[OVERCHINA]

I was Losered . It is all de identified and NON JEOPARDY.The observer is not to be put on the VR so management don't even know if its a LOSA flight. . NOT A CHECK FLIGHT....No blood or pain at all really .Given the right to refuse at the start .
The guy was an emirates f/o trained in LOSA .Looking for threats that affect US on a daily basis.Not management .
Management wont care less if you kick LOSA observers off the Jump seat . I guarantee your wife wont get the jump seat because you made some pis#ant protest . I asked how many guys refused so far and he said they are not told and MANAGEMENT DON'T GET TOLD EITHER. So what is the point.......:ugh:
The seat in the back is not so much for him to rest but gets him out of your hair for the majority of the cruise
The way I see it .You just miss a perfect opportunity to voice your opinion to management anonymously. You get a deidentified interview if you want it and it gets written up exactly as you write it. I went to town about fatigue and rostering.
Easy to cut off you nose sometimes.

[ruserious]

Have you heard the one about the external (non company) LOSA observer, who was unable to get put on the GD, so turned up at the aircraft with a ticket and his ID and requested access to the cockpit.
Capt had no idea who or what he was, tried calling the office boys, but no-one had a clue, so he had him offloaded. Unfortunately the police intervened and took him to the holding cells for a couple of hours :eek: before he was finally accounted for.
By all accounts the LOSA head honcho was not a happy camper, to say the least. Still if he had any doubts about our organizational culture caused by the initial batch of observers refused, he had few at the end of that day.
By all accounts LOSA normally has about a 1% observer rejection rate, should give them something nice to talk about on the conference circuit.

[GMDS]

LOSA might be a good thing, their goal and their observers certainly striving to give a useful result. This results however will be given exclusively to EK. Now, do you honestly think EK will do anything about any shortcomings reported? Do you really think any of the silly SOP's will be abolished? The folder will be nicely embellished for our visionary leaders and then eternally stocked in a dark and dusty subcontinental office. The only thing EK is after, is a shiny award on the wall for every VP and a LOSA sticker on every aircraft and website to show off.
If we want to get a message to them, it's naive to think that it could run through a LOSA F/O taking notes of your rant. If however enough of us refuse the observers, telling them it's not about LOSA but the company, THEN some message gets to the offices.

[L1011]

Two options and possible outcomes here:

1) Carry the guy on your jumpseat. He generates some good gen that is fed back to the company. Worst case - the recommendation's ignored by EK. Best case some changes are actually made.

BUT at least someone, somewhere has documented the conditions we are operating under. (Hope they send a few to HAAB as well as on the Tasman sleepovers).:}


2) You refuse to carry the LOSA guy. Enough refusals and the program fails.

What GMDS, does (2) achieve? Other than reinforcing the opinion that we are a bunch of childish idiots?:ugh:

[OVERCHINA]

GMDS .You have totally missed the point.

Management does not get told how many flights were black banned so whats the point ?

They wont know......

[BusyB]

As I understand it although all individual reports are confidential when the final assessment is made you can compare your company with others who have taken part. This will of course, reflect any problems you have, be it fatigue or anything else.:ok:

[kingoftheslipstream]

I operated a flight with a LOSA observer on it recently. It was the guy's last couple of days - he'd been here a coupla' weeks already...
I reckon Mr Ed is confused.:confused:
The observer was as cynical as I am... he says it all depends on what the company wants to "see" and he insinuated that the company may not even advise us of the LOSA survery results, or will filter them. :rolleyes:
I wish I'd thought of the FOM seat policy as a defense... just to snarl the process. Feelin' a littel cranky 'bout all this bull**** these days.
The whole thing is a stupid party trick with no credibility. The LOSA guys do no overnight flights, it's all turnarounds. Our guy had a ticket, but was on the gen dec so he could stay aboard during our turn...
Nice 'nuff guy, retired airline driver, just does this pretend job for kicks. No illusions about the sanity or integrity of the whole thing - it's just a charade anyway.:ugh:
Fly safely compadres
k-o-t-s

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

I was Losa'ED on a layover KOTS, nightflight, so don't know where you got that from! The guy did us one way and another crew on the way back i guess.
Like OVERCHINA says, EK management have no clue how many refusals, the LOSA guy said if we refused, there was no feedback to the company. If have no reason to disbelieve him. If the programme fails, whoopee, who has won, no one at all. L1011 makes an excellent point.

SyB :zzz:

[Flying Spag Monster]

Approached a while back at the CBC by a LOSA guy (EK FO). I knew nothing about the whole thing so said no. Chatting about it he said he goes back to Scheduling and asks for another flight, so your rejection is noticed somewhere. Also said they had 3 rejections so far (beating the 1% average) This alone speaks volumes. I wouldn't reject again, if he was one of our guys he could do the walk around...! I agree with GMDS though, another "trophy" but can't see it affecting me and its always nice to talk to someone else for a few hours. BTW, he was on the GD so as an Operations staff member he is allowed on the Jump seat...

[GMDS]

GMDS .You have totally missed the point.

Management does not get told how many flights were black banned so whats the point ?

Well, Overchina, read my post again. I did not pretend they'd look after individual flights or performance. They will be given a feedback of the total operation, ...., and will discard it. The point is, it will be useless finally, just for the sticker.

2) You refuse to carry the LOSA guy. Enough refusals and the program fails.

What GMDS, does (2) achieve? Other than reinforcing the opinion that we are a bunch of childish idiots?:ugh:
L1011: They think as low of us already, nothing to deteriorate. If, as you say, the program fails, there will be no sticker and at least someone might ask WHY. That could be a start.

Again: I do not mean to be childish by refusing. My simple point is that this program will achieve nothing with this EK management, but if it fails it might at least have a little impact by raising questions.

[Vorsicht]

The last time we had an external safety audit, the idiot that was running it became our chief pilot. Anyone remember TCK and the damage he caused to the airline.

I agree that absolutely nothing positive can come out of LOSA, not because of the process, but because our management have closed minds to negative feedback. They just want this as another box ticked.

Having the audit fail due to lack of co-operation by crews would send a far clearer message to both the auditors and management. Still, nothing will change no matter which path it goes down. So as far as i am concerned, i see no benefit to having someone sitting in my flightdeck conducting a useless survey.

I am open to being convinced other wise.

V

[picu]

I disagree about refusing the LOSA guy just because of the jumpseat issue.
The way I see it, if this happens regularly, the observers can only see us as a bunch of spoiled brats.
Most of EK's pilots are very professional at what they do - what next, refusing a TRE on the jumpseat on your line check? (Can't see THAT happening as it would effectively ground you.......)
Or worse, deliberately lowering safety standards as a protest against the company?
I say let the observers do their work - and by all means speak your mind to them about whatever's bugging you.

[Fluke]

What fu@@@@king stupid poll options. I have my opinion but as usual it is in box C.:ugh:

[critical winge]

My thoughts exactly Fluke (besides I thought I was the EK Poll Master).
Maybe a better poll might have been-


Just thought, why bother! Hence the Edit to scrub. I'm getting PPRUNE fatigue and I read it about twice a month! Same story, different poster name.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

CW, the LOSA guys are not ticketed, they came through with us on the GD, same security procedures. One of our own colleagues. From the Bus fleet mind, but i let that go :E

SyB :zzz:

[Wiley]

Vorschit saysThe last time we had an external safety audit, the idiot that was running it became our chief pilot.As is all too often the case with final reports from outside consultants, TCK wrote one recommending that EK needed someone with qualifications that exactly matched his own.

****

Unlike most posters on EK threads here, I'm really not unduly unhappy at EK. However, I sometimes find myself wishing that some genie could wave a magic wand, and give the people who followed the advice of TCK and others a way out of the corner their current policies have painted them without their losing face.

It ain't gonna happen, unfortunately, unless perhaps in the aftermath of an "MK moment" - and no one but no one wants to pay that price to fix the current situation – or perhaps I should say ‘impasse’, because an impasse is what it’s fast becoming.

[mr Q]

Line Operations Safety Audit.
Funded through a grant from the Federal Aviation Administration Human Factors Division, AAR-100, our research project has been involved in the study of crew performance during normal flight operations since 1994. The methodology we have developed, called the Line Operations Safety Audit (LOSA), utilizes trained observers riding in cockpit jump seats to evaluate several aspects of crew performance. At the core of the LOSA process is a model of threat and error management, which provides a framework for data collection. In-flight observers record the various threats encountered by aircrew, the types of errors committed, and most importantly, they record how flight crews manage these situations to maintain safety. Our observers also collect data on CRM performance and conduct a structured interview to ask pilots for their suggestions to improve safety. These combined data sources provide the airline conducting the LOSA with a diagnostic snapshot of safety strengths and weaknesses in normal flight operations. On the research end, the large LOSA dataset maintained by the University of Texas Human Factors Research Project, which allows us to study crew performance issues across a number of different airlines within the commercial airline industry.

[BYMONEK]

Thylakoid

Funny, because i'd have thought that by going independent is the best way to ask for improvemments WITHOUT the confrontation.


Vorsicht

You say you're 'open to being convinced'. Then why not let the LOSA team do it's job and wait to see what results come back. Refusing access is hardly being open.


Flying Spag Monster

Perhaps you should read your crew portal more often or the monthly fleet updates. If you knew 'nothing' about LOSA, makes me wonder how you keep up with the SOP changes? Something that i'd be surprised wasn't mentioned in the findings.


GMDS

Obviously the results will go to EK. They're paying for it. However, even this Company would be foolish to think it could massage the findings to fit its at times inflated ego. LOSA has an established Worlwide reputation that would not let even our wonderful PR machine destroy.


Ultimately, nothing MAY come of this but if we refuse the LOSA guys purely out of childish spite for a jumpseat policy that only TC agrees with, then nothing CAN come from it. And it's us, the Pilots, that have the most to gain. Believe me!

BYMONEK

[Flying Spag Monster]

Nice approach there BYMONEK, shoot every one in sight and you might get someone worth hitting. I might point out that Ed's letter came out after I was approached by LOSA and I did say I would take them next time. But you are correct, refusing LOSA because of the jump seat is silly, I never read the news letters, log onto the portal or infact update my FCOMs. Don't know how I survive really....

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Spag mate. The LOSA programme was announced back in February by TCAS. Then there was the letter asking for recruits. I find it amazing you haven't heard of it, given you sarcasm towards BYMONEK.
Can you say toys out of the pram.......

SyB

[GMDS]

Ultimately, nothing MAY come of this but if we refuse the LOSA guys purely out of childish spite for a jumpseat policy that only TC agrees with, then nothing CAN come from it. And it's us, the Pilots, that have the most to gain. Believe me!

BYMONEK, you nearly had me going, as I do somewhat agree concerning the childish behavior. But then just considering what gain CAN come from it …
The LOSA outcome will be based on what the observers see, not on what we rant over with them. So basically, if we want to point out the burning deficiencies at EK, we would be more or less obliged to demonstrate them. Will we demonstrate microsleeps, to hint at the fatigue problem? Will we let the new pilots demonstrate their pretended substandard performance or English? Will we deliberately and religiously stick to silly SOP’s as to show off their inadequacy? I pretend we won’t, most of us are too professional to do so. That’s why EK operation is still pretty good up to now. We save or cover up the inadequacies.
Then even IF LOSA would reveal these problems: Will EK improve the rostering as to curb fatigue? Will they adapt the standards back up again as to only hire suitable pilots? Will they question their FCTM and SOP’s? I seriously doubt it. They’re way too convinced of doing everything right and even more way too short of pilots.
So, what CAN we expect then? Many of us pretend: Nothing.
The only thing that could eventually pop up, would be a rampant discontent shown by refusing to participate in anything going beyond the contractual constraints. I am pretty sure that LOSA would uncover and point this out to EK and THAT would be more than valuable.
Therefore it’s leading beyond the jump-seat, or about being childish, it’s about a message we’d like to get through: We want more than just being told how everything is supposed to be an improvement for us. We need dialogue and not monologue, and some REAL improvements…..
GMDS

[BYMONEK]

GMDS

I can't disagree with most of what you say in that first paragragh.

I too, like many here, find the lack of transparency in this Company disappointing at times. Non existent official feedback from in house incidents only contributes to most Pilots distrust of how valid safety issues and concerns are dealt with. The latest example being our 'non compliance' of logging stick time. How we can be non compliant when we employ a more restrictive rule is beyond me. The GCAA's interpretation is different to the UK's CAA ( who made the rules) and Emirates is happy to go along with it. Rather strange then that Companies like British Airways have for many years employed their own more restrictive scheme without falling foul of the Authority. It's complete Bull***t and we all know it is.

My only gripe against those that are so negative against LOSA is that we have little to lose by embracing it. My personal view is that by refusing the observers and making it fail is not the way forward.

[ruserious]

The GCAA's interpretation is different to the UK's CAA
No it is not, the GCAA's interpretation is EXACTLY the same as the UK CAA's. The company interpretation of the GCAA regulations is where the dishonesty arises.

[BYMONEK]

Beg to differ on that my friend!

[ruserious]

Beg to differ on that my friend!
Well that was what was passed on to two of our Captains that went to see the GCAA (see previous post) I know both of them and they where told quite clearly that you cannot factor for FTL

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

So what did your friends do about it then????? Did they get a pledge of corrective action from the man at the GCAA??? I for one would be very interested to know.

SyB:zzz:

[uplock]

ruserious is correct BYMONEK

[BYMONEK]

Then if that's true, how can EK send out an FCI stating it's the GCAA?

If these two Pilots had met with the GCAA and informed them as such, the Authority would immediately look into this Companies interpretation. Because they havn't, makes me believe that ultimately it is the regulator and not the Airline. If the GCAA choose to do nothing,which appears to be the case, then ultimately it has to be the GCAA who are fault. Who's pulling who's strings here?

I think you'd find that a phone call to our own regulatory affairs office over at the Ops centre will confirm that. Ultimately, i'm not making excuses for the Company. I've already stated that we could still employ a more restrictive scheme but we don't.

[L1011]

Bymon, my dear boy - it is that old evil known as politics.
The Regulator wrote to the Company about the logging of flight time - specifically with respect to frozen ATPL holders wishing to thaw that licence.
It was not the best-worded letter ever written. The Poms in Flight Ops seized upon this and interpreted it in the way that most favoured the company. The Regulator does not want to create a $#!t storm by rejecting the FCI. But he was quite clear to the guys who went to see him. The letter referred to logging of flight time only.
Exceed the 900 hrs at your peril. :=

[ruserious]

I think you'd find that a phone call to our own regulatory affairs office over at the Ops centre will confirm that. I thought that you had been here long enough to realize that these people will lie or mis-represent the truth to you at every opportunity. Just look at the mirrors and smoke emails about leave. BM in the regulatory office is another of our whipped managers, who does what he is told otherwise he loses his job, same with ED.
You are applying logic and reason to a management that optimizes everything possible, even if it is totally wrong or illegal. Why the GCAA is inactive I have no idea, way above my pay grade that one.

[Andu]

Bit like the time some years ago BM did a SYD AKL to "see" what the crew were complaining about - and spent each sector in a First Class seat watching movies or sleeping.

His report? He couldn't see what the crews were complaining about.

[145qrh]

Bit of interesting info on LOSA from Icao....interesting?? well information...
"More then 6000 LOSA observed flights and not one has been used to discipline a pilot " Until EK ...well who knows.
(http://www.icao.int/ANB/humanfactors/LUX2005/Info-Note-5-Doc9803alltext.en.pdf)

[atiuta]

LOSA audit, the first question to be asked by airline management is whether the pilots endorse the project. If the answer is “No”, the project should not be initiated until endorsement is obtained. This issue is so critical in alleviating pilot suspicion that the existing LOSA philosophy is to deny airline
assistance if a signed agreement is not in place before commencing a LOSA. A LOSA steering committee is formed with representatives from both groups and is responsible for planning, scheduling, observer support and, later, data verification

Genuine question, were we asked if we supported the LOSA project?

[GMDS]

........ and apparently one skipper has already been taken off the roster ....

[ruserious]

........ and apparently one skipper has already been taken off the roster ....
Oh, shirley they can't be that dumb, can they......

[145qrh]

Another in a long line of Firsts for EK ( if true).

And stop calling me shirley..:}

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The QAR would pick up operations outside of the limmits. the fact a LOSA observer was present would not have changewd the outcome. Do you as fellow pilots not want protection from unsafe practices....

[GMDS]

True Scooter. Getting somewhat paranoid beyond the 40°.....
Good that BOTH, QAR and LOSA, picked it up, I agree.

[ruserious]

However do we really need someone to fly along with us to identify what the major threats are? I think most of us could tell you what the problems will be before we even get airborne
Yes it does seem obvious, we all know the problems, however it is all pretty anecdotal and subjective. What LOSA has the potential to do, is gather objective data that proves the threats, using a well tried and tested system that uses correct data-mining and statistical structures to prove what threats there are in a system.
So I think it is a good system, BUT, the problem is, I believe you are spot on about the plaque on the wall, never do anything about it management response :ugh:

[OVERCHINA]

Seaman
" I really think this is a PR project and a great waste of money, hence I'm sorry to say I will respectfully say no to the guys."
Sorry I don't get it .Nobody knows what will come of LOSA .You are presuming
it will be a waste of time but you don't know .
Why not ask yourself this questions.
"WHAT if it does make a difference ?"
"What is it costing ME to have an observer on board?"
"What have I got to lose by having an observer come along ?"My answers were "this cost me nothing" "I have nothing to lose here"
I did a LOSA flight and as I said before he was one of "US" a good guy .We had a good trip and it was totally painless...

[Gillegan]

I've had discussions with a couple of LOSA guys already and they come out with all the same sort of reasons why they should come along on flights, but ask THEM if they feel it will do any good and they admit nothing will change. Yes the report wil get published in the PUBLIC forum, but who will take any notice of it? Yes they will publish the threats and make objective comments HOWEVER THAT MEANS NOTHING IF EK TAKE NO NOTICE AND DO NOT MAKE CHANGES TO THE ENVIRONMENT WE WORK IN!!!!!
Thus I go back to the simple point that yes they may do a worthwile job but what is the point of spending the money on it if nothing will happen...............................and plesae don't tell me that you believe that just because the University of Texas has anything to do with LOSA means EK will actually do something!!!
I agree that based on previous experience, nothing will change - until the investigators are standing around a smoking hole in the ground and ask, "Were there any signs this was coming?". That is when an accurate LOSA report could be valuable. Without it, those responsible will just continue with their modus operandi of blaming others and taking no responsibility for their own actions.

[BYMONEK]

Gilligan

Absolutely agree. It's about Corporate resposibility and with the LOSA findings, they can't then turn round and say we didn't know. Hopefully, any recommendations in the final report will be acted upon.

[Mr Mugabe]

As usual its all done for the right reasons but no thought process involved........ are we or are we not short of crew? Yet they roster a TRE to observe check train two guys going to Sanna with another pilot as an observer in the back, yes four crew. Why not train the FCTI's to do this job and kill two birds with one stone, they can do it on their line fights, not take away line pilots. Some one has to fill in for them.
Hello left hand this is right hand what are you doing today????????
:ugh:

[EK LOSA guy]

Have been forced to come out of my cave bcos of some of the :yuk: posted on this topic.

EK was supposed to do a LOSA some years ago. MQ and TCK killed it bcos they were scared of what would be found out and placed on record.

Does that not say anything to all you sceptics about the process?

WE all now the problems.

WE all know that 'short-term' Flt Ops 'mis-managers' have been slowly destroying this company.

WE all know that there are serious safety issues out there.

But they are not documented anywhere. The managers with corpses to hide make sure they buried deep until those same managers get fired. That's happened many times already. The next sucker who replaces him, doesn't even know where the bodies are buried.

TCAS and Ed do not understand what LOSA is about. So they agreed to it.

LET THE PROGRAM RUN GUYS. DO NOT SABOTAGE IT FOR SILLY REASONS.

When it is done, then the problems are on file. Of course they will not be revealed to the pilots. Who cares? We know what they are already. Let's work together to get the issues on record by an objective, respected third-party.:ok:

And GMDS - we won't get the jumpseat until TC is no more. Your little jihad will accomplish nothing ol'buddy.

[ruserious]

Yep, couldn't agree more

[GMDS]

EK LOSA guy
Nice post, for your first. But I have to agree with you, a jihad is as efficient as its followers motivation and there seems to be not enough of such.....
I give in to the thought that as long as TC plays Robert around here, there's nothing to expect.
Concerning your enthusiasm about the pressure some LOSA finding will put upon EK, i'd place my bet on a horse that runs (and not one that talks).
The blokes who are in charge here have long sold their pityfull souls to the allmighty doe, so even if they WOULD understand what such a report represents, they would hardly act. They have their return ticket booked in First the very day the s*** hits the fan and will leave the frontrunners to pick up the soap.
Keep hoping

[mensaboy]

A couple of interesting things i've heard about LOSA. One is that if a certain percentage of refusals happen, the results from the observations are disregarded. I don't know what that percentage is, but I'm sure EK will approach that threshold if not exceed it.

I am hoping that the threshold is approached, but we just sneak in under the wire, so that the results are analyzed, yet it becomes apparent... due to the high number of refusals, that there is a serious problem at EK. At the very least there is a problem when it come to transparency, and the obvious 'fear and intimidation' management techniques.

I will say that our LOSA observer was professional to the tee. I don't have any complaints whatsoever about him, although my colleague was less that pleased with some events, and to a certain extent I did understand his apprehensions. The one and only thing I questioned, was his motivation for becoming a LOSA observer, but that is something from which I never got a good answer.

I believe that EK is pre-empting things because in the future, apparently, this will be a requirement of airlines.

I have no misconception that EK will ever change their tactics, but I see no reason not to document the faults now. This airline could be the best airline in the world, if only they would stop hiring the likes of Ed and TCAS. It would take such little effort to repair the damage done here in the last 4 years, but I doubt that they have the forsight or will to do it.

I only wish the LOSA program had the power or inclination to change things, but I suspect it will end up being a fruitless experiment. Oh yes.. don't forget.............. mention the flight time limitation problems.......... that is one area that we might get some results. I doubt that LOSA can remedy the overall management issues, but at least FTL's are something that is concrete and directly relevant to safety.

[ernestkgann]

Mensa I don't disagree with the gist of your post but hoping Ed, TCAS or their replacements will fix things denies the root of the problem. They are Tim Clark's appointees and run flight ops just as he wants it. To run the operation independent of upper management would mean changing from the 'save at all costs philosophy' this company uses. In countries where there is proper oversight this philosophy is tempered by the regulator but, alas, not here.
The two stooges would be required to fall on their swords at some point if they attempted to run the company properly.
It's Timmy's airline and he runs it just as he wants to.

[gatvol2006]

Look at your life .... you ... not you EK pilot puppet ... YOU! If any of you or member of your family are stranded somewhere ... do you get a jump seat? Just asking!

[cuberoute]

You lost me Gatvol .....

What big picture ???
What has the use of the Jump seat for you or your family ,got to do with LOSA ???? .................................... My guess is Nothing.

That is a question for management.

Management & Ed have nothing to do with LOSA.

So have you asked ED about the jump seat? If yes what did he say?