What do pilots do that 'irk' you?

[ConwayB]

Hello one and all,

My name is Conway Bown. Ex military pilot, currently EMS pilot, aviation artist and CRM facilitator.

One of the modules I deliver is 'Communication and Assertiveness' where I discuss the problems associated with communication in the aviation environment.

I know what I'm about to ask is like poking a wasp's nest with a stick, but I was wondering if you guys and girls would list the things about pilots that really p*ss you off, in particular the communication aspects.

For example, giving position reports too quickly and without consideration for the person receiving the information... or not using standard phraseology... or forgetting to cancel SARTIMES/FLIGHT PLANS. It's all good!

I will collate the list and deliver this information to the aircrew on my courses... and hopefully help to make everyone's lives a little easier and more efficient.

Thanks in advance... and thanks also for all the work you guys and gals do for us aviators. You may not get the sort of appreciation you all deserve... so let me say from me, we DO appreciate it!

Cheers
Conway Bown
www.ipas.com.au

[tobzalp]

Fly planes.
Just saw you are RAAF.
- Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three
- When given a VHF direct freq, don't read back the stud equivalent.
- We use Flight levels over A100. Requesting altitudes above this will just confuse some people. Buckshot10 request two zero thousand. Not cool.
- Flight planning climbs. It seems most of the climb plans are based on the now no longer used domestic flight plans. Review the climb planning procedure on the ICAO form.
- Just becuase you are being delayed by another RAAF aircraft does not mean you can go MARSA (unplanned)

EDIT!!

saw you meant EX. I left the text so the RAAF guys may read it.

[ConwayB]

Thanks tobzalp for the info... keep it coming.

By the way, I'm ex Army... definitely NOT RAAF. But the examples are good. (Not many Army helos get up to two zero thousand!).

Cheers
Conway

[Jerricho]

Hi Conway,
Yup. Best put on your tin hat and stand by for incoming. ;)
- On first contact, with 45 track miles to go, being told you're number what ever and replying "where's our traffic?"..........uhhh, 50 miles west of you. Let me know if you see him.
- when downwind with a few on final and telling me "Oh, we have our traffic". Umm, as I didn't actually tell you which one you're following, I'm not real certain that you do.
- with a visual sequence going, telling me "we have them on TCAS" isn't quite what I'm looking for.
- pilots that ask me if I'm a Kiwi or Sth African :E

Here's another thread with some more........ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135123)

[121,9_za]

So jerricho - are you a kiwi or a seffrikan?:}

[Jerricho]

Right, you're on the list.

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/210.gif

[Quokka]

Thanks tobzalp for the info... keep it coming.
By the way, I'm ex Army... definitely NOT RAAF. But the examples are good. (Not many Army helos get up to two zero thousand!).
Cheers
Conway

Conway, just sent you a Private Message but my laptop chucked a wobbly and I'm not sure if it was sent. Let me know.

[GT3]

I heard jerrico was a kiwi

[Gonzo]

Isn't he American?

[loubylou]

Things that irk me -
Pilots using non standard phraseology
Asking why they are not number one, and stating they could clearly get ahead of that one if they could keep the speed up
Asking what the reason for the delay is for the pushback
Thinking that they only have to comply with a heading or level instruction, but that a speed instruction is advisory

Those are the main gripes that I have :p
Obviously I am perfect :E :O

louby

[willadvise]

The addition of the phrase "if available" to any request. Eg "ABC123 request FL360 if available". I am not going to give you something which is not available.

[eastern wiseguy]

Identing without being asked.

Chatter on the frequency...EASY to do ...you know who you are!

Concur with "wheres number blah" and use of TCAS

Failure to answer the question...eg report your speed when given a speed (not being adhered to)....REDUCING to..!!

[Ppdude]

asking if straight in is available to R24 at cc when 100 miles away passing OTBED. How the hell should I know!!?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

1.Replying to a standby instruction with another call "roger standing by". The reason I told you to standby is I have to finish something else so you replying just makes you stand by even longer. Standby means shut up and I will get back to you when I can.

2.Not using a callsign when reading back an instruction. I am not psychic and I don't have time to guess if the correct aircraft readback that frequency transfer. Just use your callsign.

3.Locally based pilots asking at 11.30pm arriving into Dubai what the reason is for the hold, when they should know that we almost always hold at that time of the night and its always for the same reason (too many aircraft arriving at the same time), and if I am holding I probably don't have time to answer your stupid question that you should be able to work out for yourself.

4.Pilots who switch frequency and then jump straight in with their initial call without listening for a few seconds first to make sure the frequency is clear.

5.Pilots who finish every readback with "confirm". Give the readback, if it is wrong I will correct you, if it is right you will hear either sweet silence, or more probably me moving onto the next aircraft. There is no need to finish every readback of instruction with "confirm".


Tobzalp I know the guy asking the question is RAAF so grouping flight numbers is appropriate for him and you, but for other pilots reading this thread, a lot of places in the world aren't very partial to number grouping and would still prefer "RAVEN TWO THREE", or more like "DOOM TWO THREE" in this part of the world.

[GVATCO]

- Pilots asking for more direct routing on a congested frequency

- Pilots who have been assigned an intermedite FL due traffic, and when just about to level off, request futher climb :confused: Do they sometimes look at their TCAS? Or even better, outside the cockpit?

[West Coast]

"Do they sometimes look at their TCAS? Or even better, outside the cockpit?"
TCAS has a limited lateral range, usually less than 50 miles. If the conflicting traffic is displayed, I take that into consideration. 40 to 50 miles with two jets at altitude, opposite direction eats up the mileage pretty fast. Long before the 3 to 5 minutes that would be observed by the pilots, I would imagine the conflict has already been considered and mitigated by the controller however its still not displayed to the pilot on TCAS.

Ever try picking out something the size of a large vehicle (equiv of a small biz jet) from 10 miles away? Its not easy.

[Cough]

5.Pilots who finish every readback with "confirm". Give the readback, if it is wrong I will correct you, if it is right you will hear either sweet silence, or more probably me moving onto the next aircraft. There is no need to finish every readback of instruction with "confirm".

I am guilty, but I do it for a reason. Ok, I have heard your instruction and my version differs from my mates coz he has dialled in a different height/hdg etc into the AFDS to what I believe is correct, so after the end of the readback I add confirm. Whist getting confirmation from you in what could be quite a quick manner (many ATCO's either reply 'Negative....' or 'Correct' and carry on, my mate also knows that the readback has been verified so can amend what is in the AFDS. Its quick and effective and sorts the conflict that has just arisen in the flight deck - The one you cannot see!

Hope that helps - BTW I am shorthaul so end up flying quite a bit and end up using this about once a month. When I do, its useful...

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Cough, I said pilots that finish every sentence with confirm. The odd confirm here and there isn't a problem and I understand completely why you want to use it. I don't know whether it is due to pilot training in India, but Indair and Air India pilots will finish almost every readback with confirm, even though their english is perfect. It gets ridiculous when in the space of 5 minutes you have given them 4 instructions and they have asked to confirm every single one of them. It may not seem much but that extra albeit short response of "correct", can put you over the edge at certain times, so unless there truly is disagreement over what the clearance was, make a clear readback of what you think it is, and we will correct you if it is wrong, otherwise as I said, our silence is your confirmation that you are correct.

[Cough]

Fair enough....

Why don't you add a sentence on the ATIS pending their arrival....Or even "Confirm you wish to divert to xxx" "nooo" "so you heard that first time then perhaps you would like to try the rest of my words first time too"...

;)

[DirtyPierre]

Conway,

Keep up the good work.

The most irksome thing for most controllers is when, after passing an instruction to an aircraft, the pilot asks the reason for the vector, amended level, speed reduction etc. especially after being told a generic reason like, due traffic, for sequencing, etc.

This was particularly irksome in the 90s when every crusty captain fourbars seemed to fly with Qantas and as soon as you did something to them they'd want a full dissertion of where the traffic is, your reasoning for the amendment to their track, etc. Those days seem behind us, although ocassionally one of those old Qantas habits appears again from a tech crew.

The other irksome thing for those in a busy environment is when you have to repeat an instruction to an aircraft, when no response is received, especially more than twice. This causes the controller to begin equipment checks to determine if his equipment is at fault.

The old Flight West Brasillias used to be the worst. I think it might have been because the tech. crew tended not to wear their headsets during cruise and the aircraft was very noisy on the flight deck.

It seems that a certain discount airline seems to be the most common offender in this reqard. Not sure the reason for this, and I also understand that the crew aren't just sitting in the cockpit waiting with bated breath for my next instruction, they also have things to do like checklists, PA announcements, etc.

These are the most irksome off the top of my head, but I'm sure to think of some others given some time.

Carpe Diem.

[alwaysmovin]

Not making a climb/descent restriction which is published and also repeated by the controller during a climb/descent instruction.....there is a reason for the restriction....if you can't make it tell us in time as it normally impacts on an adjacent sector so we have to co-ordinate with them in time.

[tobzalp]

Oh yeah, reminds me of a fave.'Can you reach FXX by XXXDME Wherever?' 'Affirm'... requirement given and read back........ 5 miles to go 'Ummm, we cannot reach that requirement'.

Sigh.

[ConwayB]

Hi guys and girls,

This is great stuff. My CRM courses are usually directed at operators not usually found in the Flight Levels (ie military helicopter aircrew [0' to 500' being their usual haunts] and GA aircrew as well as non-aircrew trained persons who are required to perform aircrew duties [paramedics, electricity linesmen, etc]) but the various ATC issues are still good stuff. TCAS problems is perfect for my module on 'Automation in the cockpit and its pitfalls.' when I do some of the high end operators such as surveillance operators of Dash-8 and Dorniers and other such aircraft.

Please, keep 'em coming!

Oh, and AirNoServices Australia... I am not RAAF! I'm ex-ARMY. Big Difference as I'm sure all RAAFies and Army guys will agree.

Safe flying/controlling everyone!

Conway

[SM4 Pirate]

Clipping the readback, ie After saying "Shark 3 maintain 3 thousand" the relpy is "ousand, shark 3"; when asking to say the readback again I get a "UMPH (explitive toned), three tousand, shark three"; or "...TTTTHHHHRRRREEEEE thousand, shark 3"

If only the readbacks could actually be heard from our end; best thing is famil in ATC positions.

Make sure you don't get offended if asked to say something again, it's cause
a) didn't hear you say what I though (ie it was wrong), or
b) I didn't hear you say the critical info; it's not a go at your professionalism; but it is after getting a response as above.

Remember most ATCs have multiple frequencies (mostly on retransmit) and multiple coordlines (phone + intercoms); at times we can have 5 or six voices all at once; or radio garble; it's pretty obvious why we didn't hear the readback from you, from our end!

I'm with DP re the "reason" for an instruction; if you have reason not to accept my "Clearance" let me know, not the other way around. (Of course we all know that most delays and amended routes and track shortening denials are puely for controller amusement; ie big sky theory always works right?)

I also like the requests for direct and or high speed after making you go slow and vectoring for spacing; hilarous! Also vectors/speed control are not always about a sequence there is this pesky thing called separation too!

[GVATCO]

Do they sometimes look at their TCAS? Or even better, outside the cockpit?"
TCAS has a limited lateral range, usually less than 50 miles.

:= I'm not talking about so far away, but just 1000ft above, in a range of 1-2 NM... I suppose they can see that

[NATS Hopeful]

How about giving us all the necessary information on first call? Cleared level, heading and speed if any of those have been assigned. Makes our job a damn sight easier if we don't waste another three transmissions trying to "weedle" out all the pertinent information!

And read the STAR charts! Too often aircraft are going in to stacks high because they aren't anticipating either the speed limit point or any height restrictions. High into the stack is not good as it uses up levels for subsequent aircraft. :ugh:

Rant done! :O

[anotherthing]

G-VATCO

I agree with you there, its annoying too when you have leveled off aircraft and just as the blips merge, one pilot calls "XXX123 is clear of the traffic". I have been known to reply sarcastically a curt "No you're not", or "You just fly your aircraft, I'll worry about the air traffic" (if I have been having a particularly bad day).

As an aside - I have been told that pilots on some airlines are instructed through company SOPs to report approaching a cleared level, when climbing to an intermediate, non cruise level.

Pilots in the London TMA on first contact with radar calling "London ABC123"; sometimes you don't even get the 'London' bit. Give us all the info!! (All airlines are guilty of this, LOCOs are no worse than flag carriers in my opinion, and it seems to be getting worse recently in the London TMA)

Also, there's no use squawking ident as you switch from tower to radar frequency then happily telling me you are doing so. Your ident has to be in response to my instruction to properly identify you by the book..... therefore you will have to do it again - so it's not because I am not listening properly if I do instruct you to ident!

Approaching a Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansted or Luton stack when the controller is obviously busy - if you have not been told otherwise, HOLD!! You should ideally be told specifically to hold and given the sort of delay to expect, but sometimes it's not possible due RT congestion.... so don't make it worse by asking what you should do on reaching LAM/WILLO/ABBOT..... you follow your clearance, which is to the hold!

Although some things (like initial calls) seem to be becoming more slack where I work, in general, the standard of airmanship is very high :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Pilots in the London TMA on first contact with radar calling "London ABC123"; sometimes you don't even get the 'London' bit. Give us all the info!! (All airlines are guilty of this, LOCOs are no worse than flag carriers in my opinion, and it seems to be getting worse recently in the London TMA)

But when you've waited 3 minutes to get a gap, are 4,000ft high, have made 5 attempts to establish contact but been stepped on every time, tried Identing to get attention and not succeeded THEN sometimes I'll just wedge in a "London XXX123 with you" type call. I don't know what else to do.

You guys are just too busy and working too hard with too few frequencies at times.

Cheers

WWW

[Over+Out]

When it is quiet, and you have arranged a straight in or a short cut, the odd ''Thank you'' would be very good to hear.

[NATS Hopeful]

'You guys are just too busy and working too hard with too few frequencies at times.

Cheers

WWW'

Try telling our illustrious Chief Exec. and management that!!! :mad:

[niknak]

The twats who ask for start and pushback, fully aware that when they don't have a tug connected or ground crew, just to gain advantage over the airline next door.. *****....

[zkdli]

Pilots who think that speed instructions are optional:) LTCC has mode "S" and we can see the instantaneous IAS from the aircraft - we know when you are economical with the truth:)

[anotherthing]

Wee Weasley Welshman,


But when you've waited 3 minutes to get a gap, are 4,000ft high, have made 5 attempts to establish contact but been stepped on every time, tried Identing to get attention and not succeeded THEN sometimes I'll just wedge in a "London XXX123 with you" type call. I don't know what else to do.


That's a fair call - it's just unfortunately what I mentioned happens regularly even when quiet. If the frequency is busy, don't worry, we do know you are there, however, it is understandable that you would like a verbal confirmation of your prescence. :)

[nibog]

The 1500' heli pilot who likes to take his time on the R/T, telling me where he is, where he's going to (and sometimes why), what he's doing then, and then, before heading back to there.. all these little bits of info broken up with "ummm"s and "ehh"s.

And why does he only ever call when I've someone about to commence an SRA or I've 3 on IF training circuits, etc.

Then theres the lad at the other end of the scale
Hello XXX approach, ABCDE...
ABCDE, XXX Approach, QNH1013...
1013 A-DE. (and that's it)

[250 kts]

The KLM FK100 pilot-and you'll know who you are, that last week decided that the speed control applied was incorrect and stated that he could increase AND get past the 2 company heavies who were faster AND nearer to the airfield:ugh: :ugh: . I have to say most pilots are no problem at all but The Royal Dutch Airline are starting to get on the t*ts of a few of us on the south coast-and it is rarely the ex Air Uk crews either. Go figure!

[sprogette]

If pilots are ever in any doubt or uncertainty they should ask - yes, it's annoying if the ATCO is busy and the frequency congested but it's a hell of a lot better than thinking you'll figure it out and busting through a control zone or not conforming to procedures correctly and making a busy arrival/departure/circuits sequence busy AND messy...

Also, if you say you're on frequency, LISTEN. Nothing more annoying than transmitting traffic or instructions to aircraft with NO response because they are busy yapping to their student/passenger/company freq etc....:ugh:

[I'm not joking sir]

Telling me you're "fully" ready. Other than "not", what other type of ready is there?!

[duece19]

I guess you as a pilot could learn alot from reading this thread. But let´s turn the steak for a second... just because I can.

How about that time when, after telling SS tower that we can stay on the SID ONLY due to CB cells on both sides, and being told that "okey I shall tell radar"
Getting airborne and told to turn left hdg 310 and head straight in the cell please.

We answered Unable due to CB ofcourse, and was again told "TURN LEFT HDG 310" with an litter stronger voice this time. Unable again, we aint risking it sir.

Then told to level off at 5000 whilst passing 5900 as already cleared FL70.

Now here comes the best bit... after recieving the appropriate? amount of abuse for not complying we hear an easy calling in after takeoff... controller ask if the easy can take a turn to 310... NEGATIVE due to CB..

then silence was all that we heard.

Whilst its easy to appreacitate the stress the situation may have caused on the controller I dont think there was any need to give us pure abuse for denying an unsafe clearence... especially when we took our time explaining to the twr.


So thats it... turn the steak back again so maybe we can get some more feedback from the daily operation

duece

[fly bhoy]

Telling me you're "fully" ready. Other than "not", what other type of ready is there?!

There's the pilots version of ready!!! I refer you to post #31!!:}

FB:ok:

[Jagohu]

Nice collection so far... Well, as for me:
1. If given a direct route on contact (being still in someone else's airspace) eg. proceed "Fix 1-Fix 2", reading it back and then keeping flying on the airway - bare in mind that I might do it for separation not only to help you with the direct...
2. Requesting a higher level when there's opposite tfc 1000' above 10 nm out, and same track traffic 2000' higher just on top - of course requesting THAT level... Just wondering if you're looking at the TCAS before keying the mic :)
3. When cleared to eg. FL260 reading back "descending two-six-zero" - which could be "to six-zero" as well... Then I ask to confirm cleared level is FL260? "affirm, descending two-six-zero"...
4. As already mentioned before - any kind of(mainly frequency change) readback without callsign...

Keep up the good work, all the bests for everyone! :)

[foo fighting]

re the above post, especially agree with the two/to six zero comment.
i work in the london tma and the reply "...... climb up two (or is it) to seven zero " seems to be fairly commonplace. cant ever see what the problem is with standard r/t myself, much safer, notably for you folk flying out of SS and GW under LAM and BNN where a climb to 270/280 instead 70/80 results in moderate to heavy avoiding action !
other than that - PLEASE USE YOUR CALLSIGNS AT ALL TIMES, many thanks

[Greek God]

Two Aircraft same route different levels similar longitudinal track:
Radar "ac 1 Change to XXX frequency yyyy.y" followed by same for ac 2
New freq busy & waiting to get a word in Just about to key Mic when
"ac 2 maintaining Fl etc etc :\ Grr
Given descent clearance to a level with no info about opposite traffic 1000below.(TCAS not initially indicating any traffic) I've now taken to putting in constraint point minus 5nm so as to ease the ROD to less than 1500ft/min by the clearance point to try & avoid TAs.

[anotherthing]

Greek God

Whats so bad about TAs?? Nuisance RAs are a bugger, I'll grant you, but TA's at least get you paying attention in a busy environment, and maybe stop some of the less professional aircrew from badgering for further climb/descent when it is obviously no possible!! TCAS is there for several reasons, giving the pilot a vague idea of what is going on (i.e. situational awareness) is one of them. Altering RODs manually from what you have been given to avoid TA's makes it sound as if the "Traffic Traffic" call disturbs you from checking your share prices and seems like increasing workload for no reason!!

To give every A/C traffic info when giving it a climb/descent is totally unworkable - do you know how many A/C on frequency at one given point will be under that situation? Pilots already complain about R/T congestion!! You are mainly in a known traffic environment - we do not have to issue traffic info whatsoever - it's a nicety if we have time.

I remember being trained in the simulator at west drayton before commencing live training - I was picked up for giving too much traffic information in a known traffic environment. I was told I would not keep up with traffic or R/T if I continued to do so.

A tip for you if you fly from an airport out of the London TMA (or any other TMA for that matter). Next time you are given a climb or descent, expect there to be traffic above or below your cleared level. More often than not, there will be.

A visit to a centre or airport for pilots may also be in order - a lot easier to arrange than a trip on the flight deck :)

[Denti]

What i find a bit puzzling is how much ATCOs seem to think we can use TCAS. TCAS comes in a lot of different varieties with a viewable range of 4NM and only +-1000ft up to 80NM and close to +-10.000ft. So someone might not be able to see the traffic he should be clearly able to see on his TCAS display. Another thing is that TCAS can be U/S for up to 10 days within europe, so you do not know if it is working at all.

Next thing is a basic knowledge thing. TCAS is a display of a situation relative to your own position, which might be moving by several hundred knots as well. Lateral resolution is extremely poor as the antenna only uses 8 different sectors to come up with a rough idea where the traffic is. Added to that the only other vector information we get is climbing or descending, but without a value. No track/course history or vector is available, need to have ADS-B for that. Even worse, TCAS can deliberately choose to not to display a target if it deems it unimportant, most systems have only a limited capacity of targets they can display (but they can track more than they can display).

So judging any situation by TCAS alone is very dangerous and something we shouldn't even try to do. So, should i think about that guy that is displayed at 15 NM a couple levels above or below (if it is displayed that is)? Nope, i should'nt. It isn't my job, thats what you guys get payed for and what you have your equipment for, we dont have that.

Just a little ramble here :)

Oh, what i dont like about ATCOS is especially here in germany being told to maintain high speed at all costs, planning your descent accordingly just to get told by the next sector to slow down to minimum clean putting me 3000 or more feet above my glidepath for that speed.

[Greek God]

Anotherthing
On three occasions I have had RAs resulting from being cleared from high level to an intermediate level with no info. As I am sure you are aware we normally descend in VNAV so with the rates of descent generated opposite direction traffic 180 out will go from nothing to a TA to an RA fairly rapidly and it is for that reason I now moderate my rate of descent (which is in fact a requirement in RVSM airspace) and it is specifically that traffic that I would wish prior knowledge. When climbing it is not a problem to reduce the ROC but in my experience it is rarely done on descent. I concur with what you say within the LTMA which really needs its own set of rules, and I am not talking about a descent of a few thousand feet or crossing traffic.
I have visited Drayton and several local ATC units how many famil flights have you done?
PS Thanks for the tip

[anotherthing]

Denti -

I think the problem ATCOs have is not that we think TCAS is better than it is - it's the way a small handful of pilots seem to think that TCAS gives them an idea of the big picture. It is instilled in us ATCOs from a very early stage how innaccurate TCAS can be in the horizontal plane and also the other limitations it has :p


Point taken about the speed - we often get A/C doing in exceaa of 300kts (as instructed by previous sector) only to have to tell them "when level reduce to holding speed". We find it annoying too!!

[Charlie Zulu]

A certain ATCO was sooooo tempted to post "breathe" in reply to the question. :rolleyes:

Not sure why she doesn't want me to breathe. What this and the scene with the chair on Casino Royale. ;)

[pogmothoin]

Pilots who think that speed instructions are optional
here here.. you are not the only one in the sky matey!!!

[Asda]

Personally the thing that 'irks' me most is a pilot who dials up a frequency, pushes the button and starts talking without listening in, even for a second or two, first. This gets pretty annoying after a while. Just bear in mind if the frequency you're on is quiet, the next one may not be.
And if you can't get in because the frquencies congested, then that's a safety issue and I think you should consider filing.

[choclit runway]

Hear hear Asda.

You beat me to it on that one... On a similar line when you have issued instructions and take your finger off the ptt and another a/c jumps in before the other one can give a readback... Lack of situational awareness, genuine mistake or sheer ignorance?

And...

A/C calling ground first contact..."ABC123. Information received for clearance."

What the :mad: are you meant to do with a call like that. Read the AIP and give us the information as indicated (information received not enough... ATIS letter or QNH required!). It will save several transmissions while we pull your teeth for information and keep both parties as happy as pigs in pooh!

And...

Auto-braking for a r/w exit that is notam'd and ATIS'd as closed then sounding put out when told to 'expedite' to the next exit.

Finally (although I could go on)

If you dont have an aerodrome ground chart, instead of stopping at the first intersection while you figure out where to go (or worse, taking a wrong turn), just be honest and ask for a progressive taxi... We really dont object to giving this if the alternative is a lost a/c on the airfield.

I know the golden rule is 'Aviate, navigate, communicate' being a PPL, but good com's with ATC really can help you do the first two a whole lot more effectively IMHO.

Great thread... Keep up the good work!!! We need more of this sort of stuff.

Anybody ever posted a similar thread on the Flight deck forums for pilots to do the same to us? If so can some-one post a link?

Regards to all.:ok:

[ConwayB]

Hello one and all,

As the thread initiator, thank you to all who have contributed. I will be collating these responses and summarising them and presenting them as part of my CRM to pilots. Hopefully, this will be a start in educating us all.

Choclit Runway asked for a similar thread from a pilot's perspective towards Air Traffickers... so I may start them.

I noticed that most of the contributors to this thread are from the UK or Middle East. Regardless, the lessons are still the same.

I will post a thread on the Downunder and Godzone aviation forums... but I am more than happy to do the same on other forums.

Why not check it out and give us pilots your responses to our prickles.

Cheers
Conway

(PS. As an aside, and in response to some responses to this thread, let me tell you that when I was a Chinook Squadron 2-I-C, I would take great pains to take the ATC personnel up in the aircraft in the jumpseat at various times so they could see the job from our end... and I would organise for our pilots and loadmasters to spend an hour or so in the Tower or Approach control so we could see your job from your end. It was invaluable and if any pilots are out there, take up the opportunity to visit the ATC centres if possible.)

[choclit runway]

Conway

Top job!!!

And to any middle east based flight crew get in contact with your base ATC. You will receive a warm welcome and we can thrash out some of the above while you see the job from our side.

Warm regards

Choclit.

[tournesol]

pilots and controllers who say height when they mean altitude.:ugh:

[ATCOJ30]

Good thread. Agree that constructive pilot gripes about ATC would also be very useful please.

What do I find irksome after 30 years+ in the job? (Aerodrome/Approach/ and Radar in UK and Middle East)...

....pilots who take for ever to line-up and roll, having told me that they are ready for take off, knowing full-well there's traffic coming down the approach.
If you want another minute or two at the hold, please tell me.

.... pilots who call for push-back and start onto a live taxiway, having omitted to tell me that they weren't actually ready for this or there's no tug attached. (Thanks guys - that's just sterilised the taxiway for everyone else to use).

.... pilots who know they'll need to use all the CTOT tolerance (which is for my use) and who still dawdle about. If you can't make the CTOT realistically - TELL ME please!

....pilots who "have a problem" but won't tell me what it is - for fear of someone listening in maybe? If you think you have a problem to which I may need to respond urgently, maybe with the RFFS or just by rearranging the traffic pattern, please tell me.

....pilots who go on PPRUNE and whinge about regional airport ATC, like we're some sort of lesser-beings who aren't as sharp as our colleagues at the major airports. 'Same job but we just have different ways of making it work. And many of us at regionals may well have done our time at the busy places.

....pilots who expect ATC to "cut corners" (PPRUNE cdomment again). No way.Would you expect me to ask you to cut corners when you fly?

All of which said, these sort of things happen relatively seldom, thankfully.

[Duff Man]

Of all the annoyances, probably the MOST would have to be attitude or tone of voice that a subset of pilots belonging to widebody aircraft fleets of an Australian airline occasionally employ.

Politeness and professionalism can go a long way to achieving a desired flight trajectory result. Conceitedness, sarcasm, and condescension will often end up in a little off-radio payback.

You and your aircraft can either comply (OK, sometimes with a bit of serious work) or not with late changes to clearances. Inform us if there is doubt or difficulty by all means but keep it to the point.

In response to the D&G post about TOT mil missions, sounds like the tower weren't aware it was a tactical flight? Priorities should have been changed in that case.

And another comment about a 737 going round behind a slow DASH 8 - HAHAHA, sorry for the 73 but Q-group DASH 8s are like a '172 from 4 miles now. They take up 1.5 arrival slots since changes to their stabilised approach rules.

Long SIDs and STARs, so what? ATC are actually chastised for cancelling what "Industry asked for". The efficiency part of oz ATC has long gone, get your managers informed and perhaps the bean counters will see the false economies in the TMA.

[ConwayB]

Hi guys and girls,

I have posted the same thread on the D and G Aviation points and also Rotorheads (because I'm primarily a RW pilot) so why not pay them a visit and contribute.

ATCOJ30 - that's some great stuff. Thanks for that.

Duff Man (love your name, by the way) - thanks also. With regard to the TOT mission (if you were referring to my example), there's a local procedure for flight plans in place at TVL used by the resident Army unit so notifiying about priorities is not normally done. Our TOT was factored into our timing along with a short delay for ATC clearance... but the delay was much longer than expected.

The longest delay I have experienced whilst 'turning and burning' and waiting for my take off clearance has been 40 minutes (I kid you not!),

Burning AVTUR at 1600 lbs/hr whilst on the ground meant we were then short of fuel and had to shutdown. It wasn't ATC's fault per se... but due to other mil traffic (F18s) and the RPT scrum at that time of day, as well as wake turbulence delays and the gaggle of lighties, it was a long time to hold.

It's frustrating when we can sneak out of the terminal area at 100' AGL clear of any active runways and clear of approach/departure routes... but aren't allowed to. AAUGH!

[Tarq57]

Tell the truth there's not much that pilots do that seriously irks me. The no. 1 annoyance - simply because it happens fairly often - is calling up and going straight into the transmission without checking that I'm actually listening (or that someone else was about to read something back) first.
Please please please (rt101:establishing contact) "XXtwr this is XYZ." "XYZ XXtwr go ahead (or whatever)" If no reply is immediately forthcoming, we're on the phone to the centre, talking to each other, sending a weather report etc. Or sometimes making a cup of tea. This isn't usually too critical and mostly the worst result is likely to be that you'll have to repeat your message. But I've been involved in a situation where it resulted in a go-round because the frequency was jammed. And plenty of other similar events.
The no. 2, because it also happens too frequently would be someone saying they are ready immediate TO and then dawdling. Those folk are ruining it for everybody else. I know a few ATCOs that simply will not make much effort to move traffic when runway separation might be tight, because they've been bitten in the past.
But generally, at least where I work, the relationship is overall extremely good and there are only occasional gripes.

[wizad]

i wasnt going to add my two cents worth here, but after this morning my frustration rose to all new levels.

why oh why do pilots check in,followed seconds later with:
'standing by for further climb/descent'
my reply ' further in so many miles, traffic climbing/descending to a thousand feet above below you, direction range etc....'
and the..... 'roger, we have him on tcas'

so why ask if you clearly know where the traffic is? especially when passing under a busy london stack......

do you think we keep you high/low for fun? if that was our game we wouldnt last long and the london tma will grind to a standstill.


rant over.

w

[89 steps to heaven]

For me, it is the lack of communication of intentions, especially with training aircraft. We have lot of very sophisticated equipment in the Tower, telephone, fax, coffee machine, etc, but the crystal ball always seems to be on the fritz.

Working in a non-radar Tower that carries out a lot of training, help us to be able to give you what you want. A couple of moments thinking time is always appreciated. Notifying of a touch and go requirement on final can cause a problem as the controller may not have time to properly assess the risk, therefore touch and go not available.

As a lot of the previous post have already indicated, talk to us, and we will do our best to accommodate your request.

Also, where possible, visit an ATC facility. It is amazing how much can be achieved over a cuppa from both sides. I am still learning after 25+ years in the job and expect to do so until I pull stumps.

[normally right blank]

"- Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three"
Somebody, please explain the "grouped call sign method". :confused:
In this part of the world it would be "Raven two three".

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

N R B, in most parts of the world it would be Raven two three, but in AirServices infinite wisdom they have decided that flight numbers will be grouped because I guess they were worried about the change from using aircraft registration to flight numbers a few years ago. Can't say flight numbers have been a problem where I work and at least half of our traffic is all from the one company, and during peak times probably more like 90 % of our traffic is from the one company, ie. Emirates 2, 12, 72, 412, 416 etc etc etc. To be honest here noone cares whether you group the numbers or not as long as the end result is the correct aircraft heard the instruction and read it back correctly. That is true for most things here though, the powers that be are interested in the end result, ie. kept apart and properly spaced, whereas in Australia it has always been more about how you do it, ie. did you use word perfect phraseology, ohhh did you put "to" in the descent instruction or not. Only place in the world I know of that "concurs" to a level change. Anyway different strokes for different folks.

[Funk]

What irks me ... pilots who fail to brief themselves on the requirements of the route and destination that they are flying to. For example last night a European charter flight (operated by a respectable Western European national carrier, in fact it is generally the Western European national carriers we have the most trouble with) fails to report prior to the UAE FIR boundary for radar ident coming from Tehran FIR.
Not only does this add to my already busy workload by having to apply semi-procedural standards (if I applied full procedural in every case no one would get into Dubai) but he calls after the boundary and states that he is short of fuel and cannot hold. If they had called in earlier we could have given a slower a descent speed and advised him of possible delays for fuel planning (I am curious as to how they were short of fuel given the howling 120+knot tail wind we've had for the past week :rolleyes:).

[Canoehead]

After 28 years in the biz, it's going to take quite a lot to "irk" me. However, since you asked, what's up with that "fully established" bit the Euros are so fond of? You're busy vectoring for the parallels, turn left rurn right, go down slow down, when out of the blue you hear "Ahhhhh approach, Speedbird 95 is now fully established on the localizer 24R". :ugh: I KNOW! I can see you! If you go through the loc you can be sure I'll be all over you in a second! It has to be the most redundant, most useless bit of information you can throw at me. I bet LHR could increase their arrival rate if they didn't have to listen to this stuff! :)

[Oliver Klozof]

A little off thread, but a quick thank you to all the ATC guys and girls working the airspace around Sydney for the last couple of days (125.0, 128.4, 129.8, 132.35, SYD Approach, Departures and Director etc).
The weather has been crap and no doubt it's been hard work for you as well as us, but in my last couple of days banging around in a turboprop your skill and patience has been appreciated. Stacks of diversion requests and so on all handled professionally and with relatively small delays! Job well done!
Cheers :D

P.S. Sorry if I missed anyone!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

1. WX Diversions: If there is WX, everyone is diverting - a long explanation is not required - "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE REQUIRE HDG 220 FOR WX" "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE APPROVED" - simple.

Please refrain from" "BIGBIRD FIVE FIFTY FIVE, AH, WE GOT SOME CELLS PAINTING AT ABOUT TWO TO THREE O'CLOCK, AND UH, LOOKS LIKE WE ARE PROBABLY GOING TO NEED RIGHT ABOUT 5 MILES FOR THE NEXT, OH, PROBABLY THRITY TO FORTY TRACK MILES, AND THEN WE WILL BE REQUESTING DIRECT TO TOOTHPICK WHEN CLEAR OF THE WEATHER, AND CAN WE EXPECT TO GET A HIGHER LEVEL SOON?" - so tempting to reply "SAY AGAIN" except you have just ruined my inbound sequence and there are now about 3 or 4 aircraft waiting to jam up my frequency. I realise you think 1 Aircraft at a time - we have to think about up to 15, and if we have been working the traffic for the last couple of hours we KNOW there is weather there. Be succin.t and listen out.

2. TCAS. It's great for what it is designed to do. It is NOT a Radar.

Don't try to be an ATC - and we wont tell you how to fly your airplane. Worst example I witnessed was a pilot complain (to the point of putting in a scathing written report) that ATC were aiming him at crossing traffic on departure! He was in fact correct, in a sense - that is exactly how we separate a tight cross - aim directly at where the conflict traffic is - because by the time you get there, he won't be! Problem is, TCAS doesn't seem to see the relative position like a radar screen. This pilot swore he was heading directly at the traffic (No RA or even TA). Radar replay show passing no closer than 5 miles - and we can use 3.

Apart from that, we love youse all. ;)

[The Euronator]

Topzalp

Teach your crews the grouped call sign method. Raven23 is raven twenty three NOT raven two three

Even in Aus, the use of the "Group Format" is not mandatory.

AIP Gen 3.4 ( 4.16.3). www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/current/aip/gen/3_4_1-24.pdf

If you read (4.16.4) go back to (4.16.3)

I had this argument with the illustrious Safey Cell in Brisbane when they tried to stitch me up.

[DirtyPierre]

Hey S T,

In enroute, we actually want the pilot to tell us where the weather is and how long he will divert for and when he thinks he can go to another point on his flight clear of the wx.

I suppose in a busy radar environment like approach, long transmissions are what irks you most.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Point taken.

However, if I want to know I will ask - as you elude to, frequency time is at a premium in TS WX - and some of the readback (and cross-boundary coord) requirments don't help.

[tobzalp]

Nice pick up goose. Certainly does say that it is not compulsory. Sounds like something my training officer SHOULD have taught me ;). Wouldn't let me cut and paste it. Did the gestapo really try and stick you with that? Was it during the 'Fill your boots' affair?

[airseb]

very interesting thread. for all of you atco's some of the strange reactions you have are due to the carrier's main airports habits. for example alot of mainland european (and others) atc ask you to report established on the ils. maybe after doing this on every sector during a few weeks, you get used to anticipating it and doing it even when not asked to. the controlling habits are clearly different between different countries and even regions.

another point, tcas is very difficult to use for situational awareness, you hardly ever know (in imc) if that traffic 1000' above is converging, on the same track or whatever. so if we ask for a climb with that traffic displayed maybe we're only saying "requesting further climb when clear of the traffic above us which we don't know if it's preceding us, being overtaken, or just crossing our route". it' sjust shorter (ie r/t congestion) to say "requesting further climb".

but a few of our colleagues are to blame for some of your reactions. in france we call them 'seigneurs de l'atlantique' which translates to 'lords of the atlantic' in reference to what they think they are.

safe flying

seb

[jtor]

In some countries it seems to be very common to request a/c to report loc established. "xxx, turn left heading 120 cleared for ILS approach runway 15, report loc established." And when you get used to report "on loc" at your home airport, it's easily done at the other airports even without a request.

['I' in the sky]

Telling me you're "fully" ready. Other than "not", what other type of ready is there?!

Do not ATC ever ask us "Confirm you will be fully reaching on reaching ..." ?

[Gonzo]

WRT the 'fully ready' thing, I agree with Fly Bhoy, there are seemingly quite a few different types of 'ready'.

There are many many cases of doing Delivery and an a/c calls ready. I look out the window, and they've still got steps attached, no tug etc etc. Some even admit it! "Delivery, ABC123 is ready for push, we just need a tug and ground crew." :ugh:

That's why some of us tend to say 'report fully ready' so there's no doubt.

What else irks?

Crews who think we have the time, or inclination, to show favouritism.

Crews who think that the whole airfield should stop just so they can (try to) make it out on the +10 on their slot time.

Crews who accept a late landing clearance and then ring the tower to complain.

Crews who think they can do GMC better than you...Sure, they have some decent ideas on the odd occasion, but it strangely always seems to benefit them to the detriment of all the other a/c - "Ground, if they did pushed long, and then that 757 went round that way, we could taxi now..."

:rolleyes:

[Nuckinfuts]

Hey D.P.
Sorry, but I have to agree with ****zu. Last week with the Wx diversions and Willy Training exercise it was a nightmare. All I want from the pilot is "which direction, how far and for how long". They're on radar and all I really need to know is who to tell and who he needs to miss (Like you, I'm doing en-route too).


Although, with diversions over the next couple of days, the R/T seemed less verbose ...... or was I getting used to it???

[Jagohu]

Been mentioned already, but then once again: Please Please Please use your callsign! Even when you're about to switch frequency - I hate it when someone is only saying:
"Roger, 118.475" :ugh:

Thanks a lot...

[OscarTango]

I get a little anoyed when pilots omit the words "Flight Level" in a clearance where the FL starts with a 2...

i.e : Descend FL260, level abeam EEL...
-roger, descending two six zero...

For all I know, he'll be descending to FL060 ( desc. to six zero ). So, I go back in with - Confirm FLIGHT LEVEL 260...
-affirm, two six zero...
:ugh:

Of course this only applies when descending traffic, hard to climb to 060, when you're passing FL245...but even then I'd like to hear the words :ok:

[DirtyPierre]

Nuckinfuts,

As an OS aisle 3 I'd like you to come to my office on Monday!

Just kidding.

Looks like this old dinosaur of a controller is just going to have to disagree with you both. The point is, you, as an enroute controller, need to know the pilots intentions, especially with regard to weather diversions, so you can do your best to ensure separation.

I say again, your irk is that the transmission is overly looong. You need the detail, just said more succinctly.

[Nuckinfuts]

DP.
As an OS in aisle 3, how often do you plug-in live nowadays? :ok:

[DirtyPierre]

NuckinFuts,

Often enough to stay current and recent, be the Technical Specialist for Byron Group, do the odd check on other Byron controllers, keep my OS Aisle 2 & 3 endorsements current, and do the occasional AD.

Now you know which dinosaur I am!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

If DP were a dinosaur it would be tyrannosaurus rex.

(With a malibu)

[FinalVectors]

Hi! Good thread this. Helps to get some frustration out :}

Have just one thing to add.

TCAS is NOT a radar, and is also not to be used to "reduce slowly" on final because you see a target 5-6NM ahead and think for yourself U have to make 3NM!

I work in Oslo (ENGM) APP. And we have a LOT of problems with pilots f:mad:ing up the final...thinking they can do a better job making final space with TCAS. (How is it with this other places in the world??)

Normally we use 3NM on final, but depending on equipment status, runway conditions, Low vis. ,departure gaps, wake turbulence...and so on..it can be bigger spacing sometimes. So that means: we sometimes have to use more than 3NM.
So if I put you 6NM behind at 160kts, it means that I will for some reason need 5NM on touchdown. (You will normally "loose" 1NM in the short final phase).
I am so tired of pilots then using the TCAS to "get closer" than I need them with sloooooow speed reduction (or simply not reducing too).
You know...we do see the speed readout on our screens and know U cheating too.

SO when I then send you around and put you in the back of the line, dont come crying after landing :=

[Nuckinfuts]

DP,

I knew who you were before you played the OS card........ and I still don't agree with you.

When you have a number of aircraft all avoiding the same cell, surely you don't want them all to tell you where the cell is and where they'll be going? Any reasonable controller should be able to figure out where the cell is and it would also be a reasonable assumption to expect that they'll all be roughly on the same track trying to avoid it?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

NuckingFuts (good movie!),

Here is a controversial opnion - if the last two asked to go that way, just put the followers on the same heading. How often do you see 5 out of 6 aircraft go to the left of the build up, and then one of them goes the other way for 40-50 miles before doing a 180 back again - getting in the way of everyone inbound usually!

One of the considerations of Radar Vectoring is issuing headings clear of known weather - and at the same time controllers are not supposed to use RAPIC when vectoring aircraft for wx avoidance (or however it is phrased). Therefor playing follow the leader effectively covers all bases and makes liefe easy - and RT minimal. Lets face it - if the pilot doesn't like it - they will soon speak up.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

This part of the world we would never think of vectoring traffic around weather. They tell us what heading they need to fly and we tell them if they can or not. If due to military restricted airspace (lots of it here thanks to having the Iranians as our northern neighbors) we can't accomodate that heading we tell them what they can have and we work it out. All done quickly and without much fuss and unless we really need to know how long they will be on the heading we just tell them to tell us when they are clear and can resume track. Of course our airspace is full radar, and I do remember my former life doing Sector 1/5 in Melbourne (Urrgghhh as the shiver runs down my spine) and the details of the diversion, ie. how far left, for how long etc. are very pertinent when all your routes are laterally separated as long as everyone stays on track. Weather diversions on the Aussie bite and it's liable to turn into playing multiball on a pinball machine. So I can see both sides of the argument. Bottom line is for the pilots to keep it concise and quick, and if ATC needs more info they will ask for it.

[h73kr]

From an Engineers point of view....on company freq. inbound to night stop base, calling up 'no defects'......engineer meets aircraft, pilot wanders off saying 'yep, no defects', engineer starts doing Daily Insp. knowing not too much of a rush, as no defects. A while later goes to Tech Log to sign for 'Daily' to find numerous defect entries! Grrr. :ugh:

[DirtyPierre]

When you have a number of aircraft all avoiding the same cell, surely you don't want them all to tell you where the cell is and where they'll be going? Any reasonable controller should be able to figure out where the cell is and it would also be a reasonable assumption to expect that they'll all be roughly on the same track trying to avoid it?
This did not happen last thursday when I had weather diversions. Some went left, some went right, some seemed to go thru it.

Also, since when did a storm cell stay stationary for any length of time. The 14,000ft wind lets you know where they generally are heading, but not the speed.

So I say again, I like the pilot to let me know how long for, just keep it short and concise.


Meanwhile back on thread. The most irksome thing I have with our GA colleagues is when a VFR aircraft calls up about 10nm from the boundary and asks for a clearance. Big deal? It is when they then give you their details because there is none in the system(no flight plan) and I have to enter it manually. Cumbersome at times, and takes me away from my other responsibilities, like separation, coordination, etc.

Please, if you're VFR and you need a clearance, give us plenty of warning, or put in a plan. You're more likely to get a clearance.

[ftrplt]

RE the weather deviations in Aus, I take it then that ATC don't have any weather return capability on their screens other than a 'glimpse' at the RAPIC?

[DirtyPierre]

We have RAPIC. We have what you pilots do and say. That's it.

[anotherthing]

I don't honestly think having weather on the ATCOs primary radar display would help that much - there is such a disparity between different airlines etc about what severity of weather needs to be avoided etc, that second guessing a pilots decision would, to my mind, cause a greater overall workrate.

In the LTMA, where it is very densely packed traffic with a multitude of crossing tracks, we put a flow rate on if weather avoiding is taking place; everything becomes non standard anyways, I'd rather we managed the situation as it comes, rather than trying to be smart and outguess the aircrew.

Even if we had weather radar capability on each console, we would still need to introduce MDIs etc - therefore it would not save much in the way of workrate.

There is often the instance of pilots from the same company taking different courses of action - some will fly through certain cells, whilst a minute earlier, a colleague has requested avoiding headings. Either way, you can't win!!

[Jonty]

I would like to point out that speed is a variable that an aircraft some times has no control over, by that I mean that if we set say 280kts the aircraft may do 285kts or 270kts. Some aircraft are better than others in this respect, the B757 is especially poor.

Also slowing down, aircraft will respond to changing the speed in various ways depending on weight and aircraft type and how close it is to the level set in the MCP. Also the air density and weather a turn is commanded during the speed reduction can be factors, use of engine anti-ice is another factor. We do our best but the auto pilots are set up for pax comfort and fuel economy, and slowing from 300kts to say 250kts in the decent can take up to 30nms depending on the factors above, and the speed in level flight can fluctuate by up to 10kts.

Decent restrictions (my pet hate!)
Where the hell are some of these published? the MATS part1? when was the last time a pilot saw a copy of that? For example: where are the decent restrictions published for EMA? because thy dont appear anywhere on our plates or in any of the paper work on the flight deck. Coming in to EMA from MALUD, where is that restriction published? And BHX is just as bad. I know its not your fault and that these restrictions are published somewhere, but just be aware we may not have access to them, and a heads up helps in decent planning.

Having worked as an ACPO for a few years I have seen what kind of pressure you guys are under, and you do a fantastic job. But please beware that we may not know or be able to control everything you think we can. And everything in the decent is a trade off.

[thelowestlevel]

Where do i start!!!!
......On initial contact, being assigned a code, then not listening out for your onwards clearance
......Answering "Roger" to said clearance, then being asked for a mandatory readback to be asked to say it all again
......Asking for descent, being given a "descend now FL..." clearance, and then going no where - plan is based on now, not when you feel like it
......Not saying thanks when we go out of our way to organise shortcuts
......Jumping in on initial contact, not waiting to see how busy it is
......Routing to a final approach fix when told to go to VOR and replying we are - we have a radar we can see you
I could go on but i wont, Rant over!!!!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Decent restrictions (my pet hate!)
Where the hell are some of these published? the MATS part1? when was the last time a pilot saw a copy of that? For example: where are the decent restrictions published for EMA? because thy dont appear anywhere on our plates or in any of the paper work on the flight deck. Coming in to EMA from MALUD, where is that restriction published? And BHX is just as bad. I know its not your fault and that these restrictions are published somewhere, but just be aware we may not have access to them, and a heads up helps in decent planning.

You'll find the MALUD descent planning restrictions on the charts in the UK AIP for the ROKUP STAR. If your chart supplier is not publishing the official source information, then you need to get your company to either switch supplier or else have them point out to your supplier that your charts don't show the correct information :ok:

The UK AIP publishes FL200 25Nm before CREWE and FL80 by ROKUP.

Not having the correct information on board is preventable and the information is (usually) out there in formal CAA documentation which pilots are supposed to use to brief themselves with ..... light a fire under your Ops department if they are not giving you the tools to do your job. :cool: