Pilots next for Willie Walsh

[Angryfool]

So an agreement has been reached between BA and Bassa, which i'm sure each side will claim as their own victory! The reality is that BA have achieved the outcome (apart from the chaos) they so desired, and Bassa in my view have been made weaker. Is this good news for other groups/unions within the company?

Well i think not. The pilots are due to vote on the pension, with the Balpa reps having worked hard, giving the impression that this was/is the best deal available. They may be right, and no doubt that if the majority did vote for a strike, then WW would be prepared to take them on. It does seem however that the the majority of pilots will accept the deal proposed to them by Balpa; however i'm sure that if one was to have asked the pilots to accept this deal a few months ago, the majority would have said no!!!

So what has changed between now and a few months ago. Well numerous meeting between the company and balpa, with the company saying this is all that is on the table, analysis by the actuaries, balpa getting expert advise etc. The reality is however that Balpa have been convinced that this is all that can be afforded by the company.

Let us look a year down the line. WW now wants to cut more costs, and make flight operations more efficient. He knows that he's already managed to deal with one of the biggest issues with the pilots (pensions) without even a sniff of a strike (even though when the issue first came about the majority were saying they would vote for a strike). He now decides to attack bidline rules. His basis is cost saving, and how important it is in this difficult environment to be efficient, and that modifying bidline is essential in ensuring that we have the correct number of pilots. I wonder if it'll be the same uproar as with the pensions, but then after meetings between Balpa and the company, there will be some middle ground and realisation that this is the reality. Does anyone really think there be a vote for a strike????

[M.Mouse]

In the past 12+ years BALPA has never even had to threaten a ballot. Why? Because pilots and the BALPA leadership are intelligent enough to analyse any proposals carefully and act accordingly. In short we are neither short sighted nor suicidal.

I have no doubt Bidline rules will be modified, they have been on a regular basis since their introduction, and I can also think of areas that will come under scrutiny and will no doubt change in the fullness of time. What you won't see is pilots setting off half-cocked over a raft of non-issues for some obscure undisclosed political reason.

If a matter was serious enough and the management was short sighted enough not to listen and engage with probably its most loyal and long term group of employees then watch this space.

BALPA and the BA management have been astute enough to avoid that situation during the most difficult negotiations seen in recent memory (pensions) and I have little doubt that sensible situation will continue.

So what has changed between now and a few months ago. Well numerous meeting between the company and balpa, with the company saying this is all that is on the table, analysis by the actuaries, balpa getting expert advise[sic] etc. The reality is however that Balpa have been convinced that this is all that can be afforded by the company.

You answer your own question and conveniently overlook the fact that only approximately 70% of the pension everybody was expecting would have been able to have been paid anyway because of the dire funding crisis.

It should be noted from previous posts that it was said that the GMB and BASSA were posturing over the proposed pension deal. That has now been partially proven, keep watching.

If I was of suspicious mind I would have thought that your post was attemting to stir up dissent where non existed before.

[Litebulbs]

Well, that poacher WW is now the gamekeeper!!

[Stuntman Steve]

Angryfool? What an apt username.

[Angryfool]

If I was of suspicious mind I would have thought that your post was attemting to stir up dissent where non existed before.

Not my intention, just my belief that bidline rules will be targeted, the signs have been there for a while. I believe the company will put some spin on it, and when the time is right for them, they will attack. Wille has set his tone, something Rod Eddington et al were not willing to do. Lets be honest and open, he's taken on a 'militant' union and won. BA won the PR war against BASSA with ease. If BA were to decide to remove bidline rules, and no agreement could be reached, who do you think would win the PR battle even if it went to a strike ballot?

The reality is , whether unreasonable or not, BA don't care. If they believe they can get away with it they will. True perhaps that Balpa have never had to threaten a strike in 20+years, but the past has no relevance now.

[Faire d'income]

Dear God! I have no sympathy for lambs who have been warned.

[Stuntman Steve]

He's taken on a militant but disorganised union with no clear motives for a strike which was voted for by gullible and ill-informed members who phoned in sick in their hundreds. He knew BASSA couldn't deliver a result for their members which is why he called their bluff.

In contrast, BALPA led a focussed and well researched single issue campaign. WW knew they could deliver an effective strike, not a sick-out and not a "vote yes but I mean no" campaign. That is why the pension lump sum went from £500M to £800M and the annual payments went from £250M to £280M. WW could wipe away Bidline and still wouldn't save that sort of cash. He was willing to cough up that sort of cash to pay off the pension deficit because he knows the pilots are the only group that have the balls, commitment and financial resources to deliver a prolonged and crippling strike to BA. Thats why the man who only consults negotiates with us.

[Angryfool]

Thats why the man who only consults negotiates with us.

As far as i'm aware there were/are several unions who were involved in the pensions issue, although BALPA did lead it.

That is why the pension lump sum went from £500M to £800M and the annual payments went from £250M to £280M.

They went up because that is what he was willing to pay. It's negotiation. The company start off with a figure which they in their wildest dreams know they will not get anyone to agree with, and they wait to see the reaction. The compromise is somewhere in between. Yes it did help that BALPA researched well and obtained expert opinions, but that is not what I am getting at.

because he knows the pilots are the only group that have the balls, commitment and financial resources to deliver a prolonged and crippling strike to BA.

I'm sorry to say I disagree.
1) Commitment - BARP for new pilots when they first joined: Did the majority of members care to think how divisive it could be in lets say 10 years? In my view a very naive and short term outlook by many members.
2) Financial resources - Massive mortgages (cost of living): How many pilots have huge repayments and have a relatively high cost of living compared to other groups in the company?

Unfortunately as a group, pilots will be non confrontational, have loyality to the company because of the time and money invested in it, and paradoxically this will be our greatest weakness.

[sad or what]

In the past 12+ years BALPA has never even had to threaten a ballot. Why? Because pilots and the BALPA leadership are intelligent enough to analyse any the proposals carefully and act accordingly. In short we are neither short sighted nor suicidal.

May I kindly refer you back to the BA PlILOTS TO STRIKE thread that ran for the last 6 months MM? Oh how short memories are for some!:=

[free at last]

They "ww " and other management forms, are going to take away from you until you wish you could work till 90, be strong strike or shut it down. Or try getting a couple of extra part time jobs.

[Rainboe]

What a daft thread this is! Surmising, guessing, dreaming things up. Unless you have something concrete. no point in even trying to outguess!

[Nullaman]

........and all this being printed out in real time on the ticker tape at the Compass Centre!

Rearrange into well known phrase or saying: " powder/dry/keep"

[acbus1]

What a daft thread this is! Surmising, guessing, dreaming things up.
Ah well! That's 99% of Proon down the pan. ;)

[M.Mouse]

May I kindly refer you back to the BA PlILOTS TO STRIKE thread that ran for the last 6 months MM?

To be correct the thread title was 'BA pilots 'prepared to strike'? '.

Note the question mark. At no time did BALPA threaten a strike. In that long thread individuals did express their resolve to strike if necessary but that is something entirely different from a union whipping its members into a frenzy with lies and mis-infromation.

Regarding Bidline rules, they may be tweaked but the negatives would far outweigh the positives if they were binned completely.

[Litebulbs]

Easyjet Commander £70k, BA £100K+. Obviously its not as simplistic as those two figures and the time it takes to achieve them, but a £30k difference all the same. You telling me that WW is not looking at that?!

[Stuntman Steve]

You telling me Easyjet fly 747s?

[Megaton]

And time to command in easyjet is exactly how long compared to BA? Litebulbs, your analysis is unfortunately flawed.

[Litebulbs]

So, is it £30K harder to fly a B744 than a B734?

[Stuntman Steve]

I'm sure Willys been to Hong Kong and seen all those American aircraft sitting in the hangars getting heavy maintenance. He could outsource all BAs heavy maintentance work and save some money on engineering. It would save a lot more cash than taking a few percentage points off pilots salaries!:E

[Litebulbs]

He sure could and probably will, if the figures add up. He is, as we speak, cutting through the engineering cost base by lowering the engineering non B licenced head count by 200 as that grade is paid over market rate.

[Da Dog]

litebulb, in the shorthaul arena easyjet are comparable payers to BA. Time to command at easy jet is relatively short when compared to BA, currently it takes a BA pilot 7 years to a LGW command 11 years for LHR SH command with starting pay at under 70K.Only after about 18 years do Short Haul Commanders start to pull away from the LOCOs pay. However after that time most have transfered to a LH command where if you do your research pay is comparable to that at Virgin where they fly only 750 hours pa.:ok:
Of course overall costs are higher because BA make a larger pension contribution for us.:)
But as WW said being the market leader means you need to pay market leading wages........ I believe you have a market leading wage also.:ok:

Keep looking over the fence litebulb:*

[Litebulbs]

So, you are saying that he is not looking then and is happy with the wage structure within BA FD?

[Da Dog]

Just illustrating to you litebulb that your previous post on FD pay was tosh:ok: :ok:
Quite what WW wants and does'nt want who knows, although there are many on this forum who pretend that they know:yuk:

[Litebulbs]

Tosh?

Well you can drift between loco's and Virgin scales if you want, picking the bits that suit your arguement, but at the end of day the loco commander is capped at £70k. Virgin fleet size in the 30's, easy in the 100's, where are the jobs going to be?

[Da Dog]

Locos pay capped at 70K I think not....................... wrong again!!! As usual!! It seems evry time you open your mouth a lie comes out, sure your not managment?

Go away, do some research then come back and admit your wrong!

[Carnage Matey!]

Willy wants market rate pay and the flight crew are market rate, as determined by benchmarking against similar airlines of BAs choosing. It's not a matter of picking and choosing suitable bits of each argument. For every BA short haul Captain who is earning above the Easy captain there's a captain who has got his command earlier and so is earning less than the market rate. It all balances out and both BALPA and BA have the data to prove it. Even our own ruthless management don't claim we are above market rate. I sleep soundly knowing I can justify both my pay and my productivity. Where the jobs are is completely irrelevant. BA aren't interested in where the jobs are, they are interested in how they crew their fleet.

[Litebulbs]

Appologies Dog

£80K capped.

Carnage, if you can sleep soundly, then that is great. I, at no point have ever said you and your colleagues should loose money, but if I was a gambling man, I bet that converation has gone on at the BA top table and will continue to go on.

[Da Dog]

keep doing the research litebulb:ugh: :ugh: :rolleyes:

[Rick Binson]

I'm an orange loco left hand seater. Been in six years and now take gross about £95k plus employers pension contribution about (£7k). With my share options worth about £80k I'd say we're on a bit more than what you'd like to think lightbulb.

[Litebulbs]

£95K basic, I stand corrected.

[Da Dog]

Thank you Rick, pension aside, thats more than most of our SH P1s up to about pp16 ish.
Out of intereast do you do the whole 900 hours pa??

[Shaka Zulu]

Litebulbs please do your research before you start posting ill informed information. Its what is killing this industry off as it is anyway. Everybodies pay is benchmarked at some stage and just as any industry the MARKET decides what pay is going around.

I came over from EZY to fly for BA and so have seen both sides of the coin (and as Rick Binson has said, have given up a lot of money!!!) which will take me years and years to earn back. Not even sure if it ever will be earned back.
(and rest assured longhaul is a completely different ball game then shorthaul)

We can reason with a reasonable Management. What I am sick and tired off is the employees in the UK at the moment being ripped off LEFT/RIGHT AND CENTER whilst our fat cats in the city are living it up. All helped by a sh!t government with no morals and Robber Brown killing off most Final Salary Pension schemes.

Leadership filters through the ranks from top to bottom. And effective leadership will mean good communication hopefully with a long term view of sustainability. BA needs quality pilots and will pay for quality.
We give our professionalism. As long as the trust can be restored between both parties BA have got themselves a GEM of a workforce

[Litebulbs]

Err, when did I attack what you get paid?

[Shaka Zulu]

Easyjet Commander £70k, BA £100K+. Obviously its not as simplistic as those two figures and the time it takes to achieve them, but a £30k difference all the same. You telling me that WW is not looking at that?!

then it was 80K and now 95k. Maybe not "attacked| but by giving out ill informed information not helping anyone either

[Carnage Matey!]

Litebulbs - if you don't stop having a go at my pay I will be forced to report you to BASSA for bullying and harassment.:E

[Litebulbs]

LOL! Carnage!

Pilots get paid well and rightly so. Within my trade their is a variation of about a couple of £1000 either way on market rate, (BA on the lower side). It appears that their is a bigger variation within the flight deck community. If their isn't, then as you said CM, you can sleep soundly.

[Rick Binson]

Just to correct an error. The basic is £75k. Sector pay at £23 (fully taxable) and a loyalty bonus of 5% of basic after 2 years, 10% of basic after 5 years and 15% of basic after 10 years.

All of this makes up the £95k, add on the pension contributions and it's about £102k all in. That's a final final figure :ok:

Do anywhere between 700 to 900 hours a year.

[Wingswinger]

Actually, 34% of sector pay is tax-free so that makes it look even better. Also the two sector payments triggered by each nightstop away from home base are fully tax-free.

[excrewingbod]

In the past 12+ years BALPA has never even had to threaten a ballot.

Purely out of interest, didn't BA BALPA members vote for strike action in July 1996 over the T&Cs at LGW? IIRC, the strike never took place, as BALPA and Ayling came to settlement over the LGW issue.

[Litebulbs]

Thanks for info Rick, if only to stop me looking a complete idiot, now just an idiot!

[TopBunk]

Purely out of interest, didn't BA BALPA members vote for strike action in July 1996 over the T&Cs at LGW? IIRC, the strike never took place, as BALPA and Ayling came to settlement over the LGW issue.

Yes, we did. About a 95% turnout and 99% positive return (ie. better than the BASSA result). It was about 2 issues, the LGW T&C's and the 747-400 toilet removal.