CAP 413 and AIP Confusion.

[Name of Pen]

Dear ATC

Please can you clarify some R/T confusion for me? (I have done a search and am not sure which thread to attach this to).

CAP 413 says that after making initial contact with an ATSU I should give certain bits of information. Why do I have to tell you Departure point and destination? Please don’t say it’s because you can send the search parties out if I don’t arrive, because you can never know which private site I am going to/from:

Also I may want to deviate from track to fly over some places that are not between departure point and destination, so you won’t know which bit of airspace I am in unless I stick it onto the end of the transmission, thus lengthening the exchange and clogging up the frequency.

Do you really want all of this info? I think it might be a bit unrealistic for helicopters. Here is an example of a made up long distance flight. “G-XXXX Pass your message”

Helicopter G-XXXX,
R44
Private site 5 miles north of Town X to Private site 8 miles south west of Town Y (at the other end of the country)
Overhead Town Z
1001ft QNH 1013
Request FIS (routing via a castle, then someone’s house in the middle of nowhere etc………)

Also CAP 413 contradicts information in AIP’s AIC’s e.g. MATZ penetration:

The Gospel according to CAP 413
Callsign
Type
Departure Point and destination
Present position
Level
Additional Details (e.g. flight rules, next route point, favourite colour, dogs name etc…..)

The Gospel according to AIP ENR
Callsign
Type
Position
Hdg
Level
Intentions (e.g. Destination).

So my question is what information do you really want to hear from pilots in response to "Pass your message". Please give answers to each different request e.g. Zone transit, MATZ penetration, Request FIS, RIS, joining, contacting LARS, position report etc etc.....I know you want concise, useful information and not a load of longwinded irrelevant stuff.

And what’s the deal with AFIS and A/G stations? Us Telling them the frequency that you we calling them on, and then having to do a readability check. If you are on the wrong frequency, they can’t hear you, and if your readability is less than 5, someone will tell you anyway. (It's like phoning people up and then telling them what their telephone number is):yuk:

Many thanks for your help, I am genuinely confused:confused: . And apologies for the longwinded post.

P.S And thank you all for the professional service that you provide. You are all top quality. It’s a shame we can’t always meet the people behind the voice. Keep up the good work.:ok:

Best regards

NoP

[Talkdownman]

Who you are.(So we know what to call you)
What you are. (So we can get an idea of your performance)
Where you're from. (So we know what direction to look from on the radar screen)
Where you're going.(So we know what direction to look towards on the radar screen)
Where you are [includes level in addition to geographic position]. (So we can fine tune where to look for you on the radar screen)
What you want.(So we can deliver service accordingly.....and make a 'service impact assessment')
Dead simple.
One size - fits all: "Zone transit, MATZ penetration, Request FIS, RIS, joining, contacting LARS, position report....."

[Name of Pen]

Thank You Talkdownman,

That makes perfect sense.:)

But why does the UK AIP ENR 2-2-3-1 have a different format?

Excuse my ignorance:confused:

NoP

[Talkdownman]

UK AIP ENR 2-2-3-1........MATZ Penetration.
Difference=M=Military

Callsign;
(ii) Type of aircraft;
(iii) Position;
(iv) Heading;
(v) Altitude;
(vi) Intentions (eg destination)

ie.

Who you are.
What you are.
Where you are.
Where you're going

They know what you want because you have already requested MATZ Penetration in the wake-up call.

So, not much difference.

OK. So the Military don't want to know where you are from. Something less to worry about remembering. When in Rome......etc

[Name of Pen]

Thanks.

The mists are clearing.

And can you shed any light on the need to tell A/G controllers the frequency you are calling them on?

[Talkdownman]

Well, the radio operator may have more than wireless on different frequencies......a bit like what we have at one of the units I work at. So we should then have a rough idea which mic to pick up and speak in. It also means that if you do a radio check on, say, Seaton Radio on 123.0 and Blogsville Military answers you telling you are transmitting on 369.0 you might have enough symptoms to forward to your avionics engineer to get your radio fixed. At some aerodromes the poor bloke in the tower might have umpteen frequencies on speaker and if you don't say 123.0 he will put his tea down and be rushing up and down the line answering them all and end up transmitting over the top of your second call and nobody will be any the wiser and you won't go flying because you think your radio doesn't work when in fact it did and the bloke in the tower thinks 'I wonder who that was calling'. Et cetera. If you see what I mean.That's probably why......

[DubTrub]

Indeed, TDM, that may be valid where the A/G operator does have multiple frequencies, but how many of those are there?

I'd suggest very few, so it's a dreadful waste of airtime, like a lot of mandatory calls to A/G services.

the need to tell A/G controllers the frequency

[Name of Pen]

TDM,

Do you think it's OK to omit the frequency and radio check call if you know that an A/G operator has only one radio?

Also, with the different MATZ penetration calls. Are you saying use the military version of speaking to a military controller, e.g. MATZ penetration at Benson; and use the CAP 413 version if talking to a civilian controller, e.g. talking to Farnborough for a Matz penetration through Odiham?

Thanks

[Pierre Argh]

Dubtrub... quite a few units in the UK monitor more than one frequency. For example, almost all Military a/f use UHF and VHF (although the callsign will in most cases betray to an alert controller whether you are calling on V or U)...

Then you have "band-boxing" the practice where one controller is providing two control functions during of peak-times, and therefore monitoring two different frequencies. Once again the nature of your request might give an indication as to which freq you are calling on, but it is surely simpler not to second guess what the guy on the ground is doing when you don't (apparently) understand?

[DubTrub]

Pierre, I was referring to A/G, not controllers.:)

[Name of Pen]

Gentlemen/Women,

I am still confused. With the best interests of all involved, nobody has answered my question with a definitive answer (with the exception of TDM, who has helped a lot!). If you lot are confused, how do you think the pilots feel. Many a time I have asked questions to more experienced people than me (pilots) and been fobbed off (because they clearly don't know the answer). I am asking ATCers for help, if you cannot answer the questions that I pose, then I almost give up. Really. If you lot cannot answer it then................

There is a great thread on what pilots do that irk you. I am not going to wade into the argument, because despite our different positions, we all fight for a common goal. Safe Air Transport. You lot have a very hard job and have saved my Arrse on more than one occasion. the difference is, if you get it wrong, you go home at night. We don't.

Comments Please,

And if you lot can't answer my pilot questions, then maybe its time to change the rules, for the safety of all involved.,

Thanks again for saving my arrse when things got messy up there

it is not forgotten, ever

[Talkdownman]

"Do you think it's OK to omit the frequency and radio check call if you know that an A/G operator has only one radio?"
Is anybody gonna notice? I wouldn't lose sleep over it.......
"Also, with the different MATZ penetration calls. Are you saying use the military version of speaking to a military controller, e.g. MATZ penetration at Benson; and use the CAP 413 version if talking to a civilian controller, e.g. talking to Farnborough for a Matz penetration through Odiham?"
Is anybody gonna spot the difference? The air trafficker just fills the 'form' in. If he/she has any gaps and needs to know anything that you have omitted he/she will ask.
CAP413 was written by human beings. I think.
Therefore it ain't ever gonna be perfect.....
I've had some of my best flights by not talking to anybody. I wonder what trail of carnage I have left in my wake. No-one has ever complained. Well, not to me, anyway......

[Name of Pen]

Ok OK TDM,good point. Calm down. ~I just want to do things correctly, ok? I do not think for a minute that you left a trail of destruction. but if us pilots can find a way to facilitae your job, and thererfore ours, then we can all get on together and help each other out, ok? :) please do not take the hump.

[Talkdownman]

Hump? What Hump? Where's the 'Hump' in that, Mr Pen? Can't you read, mate? One minute you are heaping praise, next minute I am getting a lecture! I think I'll go and get on with something useful instead (like some more RTF training and examining) and leave you to quietly read CAP413......

Ta ta

[Name of Pen]

TDM,

I apologise unreservedly if you mistook that mesage for an insult. It most certainly was not, perhaps my smiley was put in the wrong place. I appreciate that you have better things to do than answer my questions,but nevertheless I am asking your advice (and your advice is appreciated). The biggest problem with e-mail/text mesages is that it is very difficult to relay feelings. If I gave you the wrong end of the stick, then that is my mistake and I hope that you do not hold that against me. for that I apologise.

No hard feelings.


NOP

or should I say Nob

[Diddley Dee]

NOP

TDM has given you the best advice advice possible (IMHO) to your questions. As he said the phraseology handbooks for both sides of the ATC fence contain subtle differences and both occassionally contradict themselves, hence TDMs reference to it not being perfect.

If you follow TDMs lead you wont go far wrong.

Also worth being in mind that a lot of us ATCOs fly as well.....
DD

PS for the record I too couldnt see where TDM needed to calm down or loose his hump.;)

[London Mil]

Personaly, I have always wondered why we (at least the civil side) insist on knowing where you have come from. A extreme example would be a puddle jumper who got airborne from Prestwick, was 10nm NW of Oxford and en-route to Denham. Why on eath would the Oxford controller be interested in the 'Prestwick' bit?

That said, I have always looked at CAP413 as a template. TDM's "Who, what, where, etc" is by far the best way I have heard of remembering all the stuff. Also, if you omit something from the controller's tick sheet, you will be given the opportunity to 'redeem' yourself on your next transmission.

[Name of Pen]

Thank you, you two.

I agree, TDM has given me the best advice, the reason that I am being pedantic is because people ask me, and to be perfectly honest, I don't know. If you guys don't know, then how can a pilot know. I just try to do my best. Dib dib dib,dob dob dob.

As for saying where you have come from, I totally agree, thats great if you can say "from Cardiff to Aberdeen". But if you say" From a private site 3.7 miles South of Merthyr Tydfil (North of Cardiff) to a private site 6.4 miles East of Inveruri (near Aberdeen)" what possible use is that?

And worse still, it cloggs the airwaves. For no real benefit, at the expense of pilots who have something important to say I(eg, Pan, Mayday, Oooh sh1t, I am lost, request vectors to the nearest pub e.t.c.)

And yes, I accept and respect the fact that a lot ATC'ers are also pilots.

Hence, you are the best people to ask.

You have advice from both sides of the fence

Yespectfully yours

Nob head........... oops, I mean....Nop

[Name of Pen]

Ps.

No, with hindsight I do not know why i thought TDM got the hump.

My mistake. Put it down to translation error on my part.

Plus, check he time of my post. Around about closing time round these parts. OOOH AAAAAAAAAAR, my sisters my wife (and I love her, despite the webbed feet)etc.

Unreserved appologies:ooh: :oh:

[Talkdownman]

No need to apologise. And thanks for the support, Diddly/Mil.
Back to the subject. ATS staff are simple human beings, usually, and most of us prefer the KISS principle: 'Keep it simple, Stup......" (no inference, just to keep it lighthearted). Most controllers do not know or care where these private sites are accurately located, they just have to write something in the appropriate box on the form which probably isn't big enough for a long-winded place. It's usually big enough for four letters. If you know of the ICAO four-letter words for the places even better. Otherwise I'll write Scotland, or Wales, or PD 'ish' or FF 'ish' and have to rely on the tapes thereafter. All that 'Who/What/Where' stuff has worked fine for me on the wireless in flying machines since '68 (when it was CAP46.....). Well, no one has called me a tw@t yet (.....over the air-waves, anyway.....). Relax, most of us ain't gonna bite. CAP413 needs a bit of a going over, I believe some wizzo somewhere is in the middle of doing it.....

[discountinvestigator]

The CAP is guidance whereas the AIP is a published legal reference document. You should start from Annex 11 and PANS-ATM, go through the AIP GEN 1.7 filed differences and the GEN/ENR/AD text before plodding on to the CAP.

Perhaps the reason for A/G frequency calling is that several share the same frequency, and they want to know if you are calling them. Of course, if the relevant ranges were published... mmm... that might stop a well known Low Cost Carrier from calling from 150 miles away on a shared tower frequency to ask for the weather from FL xxx.

[Name of Pen]

DI, Nice one, now your talking my language. TDM thank you for accepting my appologies. Respect intended and also given.:) :) but what can we do? all advice will be taken on the chin.

[discountinvestigator]

Well, if you have found a difference, or a problem, then you could always let the ATS lot at Aviation House know. I have just identified a few things with PANS ATM, in that they do not have phraseology or sequences for some air-ground-air communications.

Mind you, our AAmericAAn friends have so many exceptions to PANS ATM filed and unfiled, all in the name of safety and efficiency according to their AIP, that it does make CVR work rather difficult to get your head round. If only they had to give clearances across all runways, not just those in use, if only they had to give the runway numbers with the take-off clearance etc...