"Die another Day" Helicopter Stunt [Archive]

Big_Johnno

29th Jan 2007, 16:13

I am watching the helicopter stunt from the James Bond movie "Die Another Day". It is the one where the MD600N is pushed out the back of a cargo plane. In the stunt the Engine is off as it leaves the plane with the rotor blades NOT turning. Scenerio: Given enough Altitude, would it be possible to start a helicopter as it is falling and get the rotors up to operating speed and recover before it crashes. Maybe it is one for the Mythbusters? :eek:
John

g-mady

29th Jan 2007, 16:19

Dont think the mythbusters even need bother! I think if it were for real the rotor blades would cone up so much they would likley snap or deform,

and if you gould get the engine up and running in time (another achievment in itself whilst the helicopter spins around like god knows what) you would never get the blades to level out and achieve any lift. :ugh:

An ULTRA extreme case of Vortex ring!!!:}

Not possible:ugh:

MADY

Hughes500

29th Jan 2007, 16:37

GMady

Not sure about vortex ring, if the ac has more than 30 kts of forward airspeed - bearing in mind it was coming out of an aircraft doing approx 130 kts - then no way vortex ring. Agree with the blades though, but on second thoughts what if the ac was falling nose first, ie vertical then blades would not cone. Ah then again would have monsterous flapback. All I know is wouldn't want to try it. Then again if you were in that situation you would give it a go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

g-mady

29th Jan 2007, 16:50

As I see it:}
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/rhmaddever/heli1.jpg
MADY

NickLappos

29th Jan 2007, 17:04

A great deal of the stiffness of the blade is the centrifugal force (forgive me, Lu!) so that the blades would surely just fail at the cuff and bend upward.
The resulting landing is probably a hard one :ooh:

Hughesy

29th Jan 2007, 17:25

The only possible way this could work, is to be wearing a tuxedo. And to have a martini (shaken not stirred) available for when you recover.
Bond girl a bonus! :E

Hughesy

B Sousa

29th Jan 2007, 18:19

Somebody here has never experienced exiting a plane before. From zero to superfast very quickly according to the math.......

Say Goodbye Blades.

USPA #1980

Ascend Charlie

29th Jan 2007, 19:53

G_MADY, there is no reason that the aircraft would nose up on exit. It will drop nose down and point at the ground like a bomb, possibly inverted.

But that scene is no less believable than a lot of other Bond aviation stuff. Ejecting from Goldfinger's jet. The turbine R22 in the train carriage. The freefall off the cliff to get into the Porter. Fighting Jaws on the roof of that Lodestar. Firing rockets from the gyrocopter. The AS350 slicing up the street in China. The jeep rolling backwards out of the Herc in Afghanistan. The zero-g hows-yer-father in Moonraker.....that could be fun. But hard to get leverage.:ooh: :8

helimutt

29th Jan 2007, 20:07

Chance of it working is a million to 1.
" So you're saying there's a chance?" ;) ;) :)

Scissorlink

29th Jan 2007, 20:25

Ummm.......................No

EX-PJ

29th Jan 2007, 21:04

In a past life, I had the experiance of dropping (pushing) many things from the rear of a number of USAF aircraft, although never a helicopter.

My 30 years of helicopter experiance, both in maintenance and flying tells me, with the horizontal CG of helicopters, without some drag chute attached to the airframe some place it would tumble uncontrollably. I would bet it would start to self distruct as soon as 130+kt wind grabs doors and cowlings.

I have witnessed steel doors ripped off their hinges that were really strong and secure.

As for the blades? GONE!

As I write this I am smiling, remembering all the stupid stuff I whitnessed 35 years ago in the Air Force. And survived!

My personal best was a multi million dollar fast deploy, temp control tower. The rigging failed and it lawn darted from about 800 feet into the dirt. It looked like a smear on the ground. No injuries. I am sure some officer cought hell for it and lost his job. Back then (Jimmy Carter ) the military realy sucked!

Heli-Ice

29th Jan 2007, 21:40

G-mady

Great drawing! :ok:

Which one of the fancy art schools did you attend to?

What is it with the lucky farmer?

SASless

30th Jan 2007, 01:08

Way too many years ago, I was involved in a discussion for an interesting project some Army Colonel thought up during a fit of wit that only the truly thick can do.

During one of my evenings out from a military hospital where I was vacationing while watching my skin grow, I ran into this fellow in the Officer's Mess bar.

He seemed an interesting chap who was involved to some extent with new concepts of airborne assault. Please note "Airborne" and not "Air Mobile"...which are two concepts with very little to do with each other.

He suggested my vast experience would be greatly appreciated should I care to volunteer for this duty, details of which he was not at liberty to discuss. (When senior officers start buying 20 year old Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilots drinks and being chummy....all sorts of huge red waving flags appear!)

I says, "Colonel, what in the world do you "Airborne" guys need with some straight leg helicopter pilots?" He said that being a mere "Leg" would not be a problem that could not be resolved by a three week holiday at Fort Benning Jump School.

After more than a few of the foaming ales....it came out that what the project was about was airdropping an OH-6A Cayuse (Hughes 500C) out the hind end of a C-130, crew to jump with it, join up with the aircraft, dump the packaging, install the blades, then fire that puppy up and do some unspecified task.

Having been around a parachute drop zone as a pilot hauling the injured and seeing the results of a typical equipment drop, I thanked the man for his beer and toddled off home.

If an airborne drop can destroy an armored vehicle....lord only knows what the helicopter would look like.

g-mady

30th Jan 2007, 09:06

AH, the good old turbine powered R22 in the train! How did they get a jet ranger engine in there!

The lucky farmer standing beside the ferrari (didn't you see the film). A ferrari falls out the plane at the same time and lands nose down in a field (seemingly unscratched!)

The drawing (i was a little bored) and your right the helicopter would likley fall nose first (CofG on most helis would lie forward in a situation like that:ugh: )

MADY

Big_Johnno

30th Jan 2007, 13:46

Glad to see my scenerio has sparked some interest. and obviously there are a few James Bond fans out there as well. I would just like to thank you all for your comments. I didn't obviously think it was feasable justt watching all the lights on the annunciator panel going out in a row.

Just one question though, how low can the rotor speed drop that would allow recovery bearing in mind that altitude would be a limiting factor. as i have read of many accidents caused by unrecoverable loss of rotor rpm. although this normally happens at low altitudes limiting the time for recovery in situations such as mustering.

The AS350 slicing up the street in China.
Ascend Charlie, I think it was an AS355.
Thank you again for all your comments.
John

ShyTorque

30th Jan 2007, 16:59

"Die another day"?

More like "Die TODAY!" :rolleyes:

g-mady

30th Jan 2007, 17:00

Most helis are a few seconds to get the lever down and save the rpms. The R22 is about a second!
Once the rpm drops, the blades cone up and produce less and less lift, and soon pass the point where you wouldn't get them down again (before hitting the ground)!

MADY

nickg_44

26th Feb 2007, 08:12

Yes, I did seem to remember the turbine R22. quite hilarious. surely they have researchers? or did they think that a Lycoming didnt sound cool enough?

ha

mylesdw

26th Feb 2007, 18:43

G-MADY: vortex ring? not a chance, you have to have power on to get that. Anyway, it's just a silly idea you'd hit the ground before you'd even found the checklist!

DennisK

28th Feb 2007, 17:31

My firm was asked by Eon if we could exit a rotors running MD 500 from an airborne open ramp at around 110 knots. A daring 007 escape. A lot of money was on offer!

Apart from the immediate answer 'NO' we did give the situation some considerable thought later.

So let's say we got the rotors running at the maximum 500 rpm ish with nil relative air flow and pushed the machine out in the flying attitude on two supporting ramps, which then retract vertically down. Zero ASI to an instant 110 knots or so.

Well I suppose the first consideration is the area of turbulence aft of the ramp which might give some acceleration time before hitting the full RAF. At 110 knots that will certainly produce but some massive flap back the pilot might enjoy! Could he co-ordinate cyclic movement to contain the sudden flapping. Please step forward Capt Nick Lappos?

Perhaps someone has done it in a wind tunnel.

I'm not sure why I'm discussing the subject ... but it makes a change from the usual ... wouldn't you think. Any points of view for amusement?

Best wishes to all,

DRK

reacher

28th Feb 2007, 21:10

While on the subject of Helis in movies.....(and before anyone says anything yes I was bored) Whoever was flying the Huey in Rambo 2 did a awesome job. He really threw it around, and then some!

mountjoy

28th Feb 2007, 23:23

Surely a C-130 is a bit tight for a 500 to be running in ?

nickg_44

1st Mar 2007, 12:51

Well a 500 has a 26ft 4in (8m) blade diameter, so in order to have some room for breathing, C130 would probably need to be 9-10m wide in the load area, which considering its cargo area is only 12m long, seems a bit unfeasible! hehe

good point mountjoy.

nick

g-mady

1st Mar 2007, 13:00

and wouldn't the door/ramp/opening be even narrower???

"mylesdw" Is that the startup checklist or the "in the event sudden removal from a transport aircraft" checklist :D lol

Mady

nickg_44

1st Mar 2007, 13:11

well yes, i would say so seeing as the aircraft has to be somewhat aerodynamic! i think total loadable width is 3.12m in a C-130

it is a james bond film though, i dont think the average viewer looks that deeply into these things.

nick

DennisK

1st Mar 2007, 15:00

As has been noted ... it was a JB epic and little things like the facts have never got in the way of a good shot.

Seem to recall my firm's involvement in Goldeneye, when our pilot was called on to land our black Robbo on a moving Ruskie train. Not sure where the producer thought the blades would go as the hydraulic clam shell doors closed (a three day sequence finished on the cutting room floor.)

Returning to the C130 500 exit, nothing there that sawn off M/R blades, an electirc motor and a well judged cut couldn't have coped with. (you should know these film boys) But as a bar discussion, who wants to speculate how the real heli would react for the requested sequence, when reality took over!

Must have had a quiet day!

DRK

BGRing

6th Mar 2007, 09:05

Chaos.
to many variables.
What blades broke. if not all.
Where did they break along their length if not at Root
how dose each broken blade interfeir as it is Falling.

Re VRS. in previous Asumption. Not going to happen, till power on.

Any one care to Speculate on
Given some mad Military Dudes Straped you in and pushed you out. What would you Do besides Scream. IE.
what would your controle inputs be. (Hydrolics not working ?)
You are locked in the seat so Jumping out is not an option yet, (Ever ?) Hmmm If I did jump out Id leave it till i was 20ft, I would probably survive a 20ft fall :} :uhoh: .

This brings thoughts of problems involved when thinking of how to stop blades in flight to get a faster stub wing lifting like in the X wing. just in reverse.

g-mady

6th Mar 2007, 14:56

Heres a question for you then...

on helicopters like the apache, the baldes are strengthened enough to allow them to roll unside down without them strikeing the tale.

If strengthened enough for that would they be able withstand a freefall from a plane (as in film) without bending up and snapping?

MADY

BRASSEMUP

6th Mar 2007, 15:59

hahahahahaha NO!

DennisK

6th Mar 2007, 21:08

..... just to recall, the blades are turning at 500 rpm. If 150 knots TAS doesn't flap the blades to breaking point, what changes ? Maybe a scream or two !

DRK

ShyTorque

6th Mar 2007, 21:11

The starting windspeed limits for many helicopters is about 45 kts maximum. Any more than this and the blades may well make contact with the airframe. This is on level ground, with the airflow coming from one direction, normally from ahead.

How fast is the airspeed of a plummeting and tumbling helicopter, falling from the rear of another aircraft travelling at about 150 kts or more, which is likely to be over the Vne of the helicopter with the blades under control at flying speed??

Totally ridiculous idea.

3top

6th Mar 2007, 23:00

Aaaaand here we go again!!

"1 sec. to death on the R-22 myth!"

I can demo you at least 3 sec. WITHOUT moving the collective at all..
Just have to flare progressively....
1 sec is the time if you want to maintain speed and altitude.
3top :cool:
There was a thread sometime with a R-22-turbine.
However it was a homebuilt-project, that was to use a R-22 cabin section, nothing else...
I saw a couple of times a rotor NOT stop with the right angle and amount of wind, but never start spinning by itself....
James Bond is fun, but at least they should keep it remotely possible.
The Porter, the Turbine-R22, the BD-5.
But 350-backyard, MD-freefall-start, etc, get out of here!!
I asure you we are not the only ones to complain about Holywood:
Discussing this very subject with a client he said his wife was all upset with
"The Gladiator" ???
She is a Historian and Archeologist - some of the costumes were over 300 years wrong!! Imagine yourself running around in 1700 outfits...
So, Aviation is not the only area for mistakes "only professionals would see" !!
3top :)

DennisK

7th Mar 2007, 06:20

Please ..... the 500 heli blades are already running and planned exit speed 110 knots ! No lost sleep, we weren't thinking of giving it a go!

DRK

4U2NV

7th Mar 2007, 14:08

DRK:

Although it would be an absolutly barking thing to try....:uhoh:
I can't say how the blade would react at 150kts, but I've started a helicopter in the 'relative' lee of a hanger, then lifted above the hanger into an 80 kt wind. Sporty, but it definatly was not as sporty as I was expecting it to be.... As I say, not sure about 150kt but 100-120 may just be possible. Just anticipate with cyclic and get everybody else to hold on!!!!:eek:

Regards,

NV

HELOFAN

7th Mar 2007, 14:52

I hope to heck it gets pushed out backwards and running from an antonov.
If it went forwards , regardless of the ability of the main rotor to withstand the sudden loading, what happens to the tail boom & rotor.

I bet the tail rotor strike would be intersting & the loss of tail rotor from ( lets be nice and say 15,000ft would be awesome.

Then you would want to shut down , wait for the main rotors to stop spinning to snap off so that you can exit the aircraft in a controlled orderly fashion & pull the rip cord to the parchute you knew you were going to need when you signed up for this crazy job.

LOL

HF

DennisK

7th Mar 2007, 15:34

That's good news ... at least someone thinks it could happen. Yes a rearward shove was the plan and now we know 80 knots is possible.

And of course the Antanov or silmilar would be towing a ton of turbulent air so the acceleration zero speed to 120 knots wouldn't be instananeous.

Methinks a rapid cyclic response might do it!

Can't we move on to something less idiotic .. . or any more views.

DRK

HELOFAN

7th Mar 2007, 15:37

LOL Phew !
Glad someone else liked that banter on the subject.
:}
Yup, lets start some cool rumors...its been ages :hmm:

HF

:ok:

g-mady

7th Mar 2007, 17:59

Talking of helicopters in films, has anyone seen the Guardian yet? From what i saw, very sensible, no stupid editing of the sea hawk!

MADY

HELOFAN

7th Mar 2007, 21:03

I liked it though the multiple endings sucked.

I also thougt they didnt talk about the pilots or the helos as much as they should have , it was a great PJ movie but I like the helicopters more in a story.

good flick though

reacher

7th Mar 2007, 21:51

Concur all about that movie. It was a bit to long with those two in it, probably due to all the filler sections in it. How many times do we want to see someone doing laps of a pool, even if it’s in fast forward! The love interest, why did we have to have that?! Couldn’t it be just like real life where he finishes, cleans up, walks out and says thanks on the way out the door.

mini

7th Mar 2007, 22:11

Whilst on the subject of JB movies, what about the scene where the helo is chasing a car around a multistory carpark? A helo flying in a confined space? Can someone work that one out?

Bravo73

8th Mar 2007, 08:10

mini,

Which Bond film are you thinking of? That scene doesn't immediately spring to mind...

Are you sure that you're not thinking of the modern remake of the 'Italian Job'? You even started a thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=236922) about it last July... ;)

http://www.lafm.com/The%20Job.jpg

As for whether or not helis can fly in tunnels, here's a previous discussion (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74619). The short answer is yes!