Australian ATC Question (SE Queensland)

[Capt Hollywood]

Had a flight today from the Gold Coast, through Amberley's zone, to a location just east of Oakey. As I'm in a helicopter the location was actually a paddock, I created a waypoint in the flight planning software I use and submitted the flight plan. Once airborne I got a transponder code from BN Radar and off I went.

Naturally I contacted Amberley Approach to transit their zone, usually they clear me through with very little further detail from me, I presume they have all my info from the flight plan. Sometimes with only my callsign they clear me to my destination, even if it's a paddock as I've put it in my plan with a name.

Today though I had to explain my destination, both to Amberley and Oakey. I ended up giving a lat long to Oakey ACD. I thought the plan may not have been submitted successfully but BN Radar gave me a code which they don't do without a plan in the system. I thought the point of a flight plan was to explain the details of your flight to the relevant parties, ie BN Radar, Amberley and Oakey.

Please note this isn't a complaint, I'm just wondering why sometimes ACD and APP seem to have all the info and sometimes they don't. Even departing YBBN, ACD sometimes request an outbound track if it's an unusual destination, wouldn't the plan tell them exactly where I'm going?

Cheers,

CH :cool:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Hi CH - you sure are doing some time in that flash machine! The HELO traffic around BN/CG seems to be getting busier by the day - testament to how few airfields we have left in Australia I suspect!

OK - From the Civil ATC side of your question:

We all use the same radar and ATC system in Australia - except the military. Air Force embarked on a multi-million dollar experiment to create a separate system called ADATS - which I hear on the rumour mill is close to being abandoned as the RAAF ATC gets slowly absorbed into Airservices. What representation ADATS gives to RAAF ATC from the FPL system I have no idea - perhaps if there are any RAAF ATC's left out there they could comment?

Hence we have to manually coord all flight plans that leave BN APP airspace through AMB, and often despite there being a FPL in our system, their system has not captured it at all - go figure.

On the subject of LAT/LON entries, the ACD position has no visual representation of where your route takes you (in Approach/Centre we do). In my opinion planning DEPPT DCT to a LAT/LON DEST is not good practice - I have seen a one digit error show the planned route out by 90 degrees! So you can see why a good ATC will ask your track before launching you towards other traffic.

To make the system work for you, try and find a waypoint, navaid, or AD that is somewhere near the direct track and plan initially via that - once airborne request direct to your ZZZZ Destination. Another option is to put your Track Out (TROUT) in the RMK field of your Flight Plan. A third (and effective) way is to plan your first turning point relative to your Departure - e.g. If you are flying from BN to your helipad near Oakey (around the 280 radial from memory), you could plan something like:

DCT BN280020 DCT (ZZZZ).

Right away we know your outbound track is 280 degrees.

Another thing that can help is if you express your Destination as a DIST/BRG in your route or in your DEST field - e.g. DEST/YBOK140008 (or whatever the syntax is, cant recall after a couple of glasses of red!)

[Capt Hollywood]

Hey ****su,

Long time no talk. Yes I have been doing a bit lately and have a couple more trips this week, one to Hervey Bay and another back to the Ipswich area. Interesting sight today as I overflew Amberley, watched a C17 in the circuit area 1000' below me, still pretty big! Saw on the news tonight that it's headed to Las Vegas with the F111's.

Your info clears up my queries nicely. I just thought it odd when they asked me for my destination as I had never been asked before, in fact I was always impressed at how efficient the flight plan system was.

Good suggestion too regarding lat/long destinations, the idea of planning outbound via a known point is a good idea. Don't worry about the syntax order, those flight plan forms still confuse the hell out of me, that's why I use the software as it does it all for me!

I have another query for you. Is it considered a pain for us VFR types to want to overfly YBBN when tracking north from YSPT. I have only once been told to track via the Uni/Gravatt lane due to traffic congestion but have often wondered whether you'd prefer us to track via the lane.

I would still like to have a look through your place of work one day too, will have to arrange it when I'm up that way and you're there.

Cheers,

CH :cool:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Just give me a call when you want to visit - I think you have still got my number.

We will usually be able to handle aircraft (fixed & rotary) low level (1000-1500) tracking either direction Manly Boat Harbour-BN Control Tower-Hornibrook Viaduct. Sometimes you might get move out via the Bald Hills Radio Mast to clear the final approach for RWY14/ dep path for RWY32.

Sometimes you might get a spin south of the Brisbane River if traffic is heavy on RWY01/19.

A FPL already in the system will expedite the process - if we see something like YSPT-YMBH-BN-HBVT-YRED then we know exactly what you want and we know that you know where to go without too much explanation.

Call 125.7 as normal for a Squawk, you will get transferred normally to 125.6 Northbound or 128.3/124.7 (always combined) Southbound for clearance. Expect transfer to the TWR 120.5 Northbound around YMBH and Southbound at HBVT.

This procedure relies on the TWR/ADC visually separating you with ARR/DEP - so if the weather is crappy, i.e. cloudbase less than 2500 or poor vis it may not be available - HINT - call nice and early and that way if not available you are not so close to need a lengthy diversion to an ALTN RTE.

If there is considerable overflying arrivals for 14/32 from opposite sides )i.e. traffic from the south to land 14 / traffic from the north to Land 32), it may not be available.

The UniVat as you mentioned is another option - but I know flying it in a fixed wing at 1000 close to the 01LLZ and AF is a bit 'interesting' at times - Helo might be different.

You might get hypoxic, but another option is overfly at 7000 or above - so if you were on a long leg like YSPT-YHBA or something. 7000 is the magic number because our departures all get capped departure levels of 6000. Overflying between 2000 and 6500 is the worst case for us - and hence maybe for you too!

[Capt Hollywood]

Thanks ****su,

All great info.

Having done it many times I'm certainly familiar with that route over YBBN. Not a bad idea overflying at 7000' actually, the pax might get a bit worried wondering what where doing up so high though! Took it to Darwin at 10,000' just to get the fuel burn down a bit, that's a loooooooong way up for us helicopter guys! :eek:

I've only done the Uni/Vat lane once, found it OK. Need to keep your eyes out near AF though.

CH :cool:

[JB001]

Hi Capt Hollywood,

As a RAAF controller at AMB hopefully I can shed a little bit of light on things. For starters as ****zu pointed out, ADATS can be qurky piece of kit. Over the weekend, we have to turn off our AFTN circuit which supplies us with flightplans as we have whats called a problem message queue (PMQ) which any flightplans ADATS does not like go in to. The problem is lots of plans end up in there (military, Civil RPT and general aviation) because ADATS for some reason doesn't like them. This can be for many reasons, it doesn't recognise a boundary point that the aircraft is entering or leaving the airspace etc. Additionally, it also receives all code allocations, departure messages, estimates and the BN ATIS. The PMQ however can only hold 99 messages and flight plans. Because of this the circuit is turned off over the weekend when not active and turned back on late on Sunday afternoon. It is quite common that the queue is full come open up on Monday morning, so all messages and plans quite often need to be sent through again from a specified time. Invariably this does not catch all the plans, so some flights we do not have details on, and either go through to BN flight datas for a copy of the plan (mainly for IFR aircraft) or just manually assign a code from our pool for VFR aircraft. Sometimes plans just aren't there eg. accidentally deleted, timed out and dropped out of the system etc.
In terms of the delay, there could be many reasons. The APP controller could have been busy, and either ACD was unable to get in to ask for a clearance or APP might not have been able to concur a clearance due to traffic, or because they were uncertain of your precise destination.
There are also quite a few trainees in positions at the moment, which could also have contributed to the delay.
Basically all we need to know is where you are, where you want to go and what level you want to fly at.
Hope this clears things up a little bit.

Any more queries don't hesitate to ask,

JB

[Capt Hollywood]

Well it all makes sense now, sort of! Thanks for all the answers and info, I'm off to Amberley's airspace on Thursday so I'll test the system again then!

CH :cool: