Engine Failure At Very Low Speed In A320

[Lost at fl345]

just a question to ask experienced pilots of a320 what do u recommend me to do in and engine failure during t/o roll at 70kts ?? ofcourse rejecting is the answer but maintaining center line is a bit tricky any advice?? Cheers

[Dream Land]

A normal scenario experienced in the sim, I personally keep an eye out for decreasing N1 during this initial part of the takeoff, if you wait for the NFP to point it out, you will more than likely end up departing the runway in which case you shouldn't be in heavy reverse or you will cause damage to a good engine, if you can pick up on the failure early, idle power and braking alone does a good job for you, just my 2 cents. :ok:

[javelin]

Differential braking is about all you can do - idle power, no reverse, it will make things worse.

Wait till they thow one at you in the 330 sim - it gets even MORE exciting !

[Lost at fl345]

hmmm thats not very promising cause the company is having talks of

getting A330s:uhoh: here is an idea, how about u delay ur rejection like lets

say by 20 kts to 90-100 kts range then u pull back the thrust levers ? u

will have max auto brake and the spoilers deploying? any thoughts?

[Rainboe]

Why is it difficult maintaining c/l? It's not because you are pulling high reverse.....at 70kts? At low speed, idle reverse is all you need, or moderate it to keep control.

[javelin]

The problem is the high assysetric thrust at or close to Vmcg which needs deft footwork to stop a spot of gardening. On the 330 with the F/O as PF, the first seconds of the acceleration I watch like a hawk as I need to step in VERY quickly if it goes quiet on one side, or worse still if it stalls as some of the Trents did before the mods were done. Leaving the problem with assymetric will just drive you off the runway.

At high power settings on the Trent, the stall surge protection helps as the initial acceleration of the engine is very slow compared to other types - you will be surprised to begin with.

[Strepsils]

On the 330 with the F/O as PF, the first seconds of the acceleration I watch like a hawk as I need to step in VERY quickly if it goes quiet on one side

Why? Aren't your FO's trained in RTO's, EFATO's etc.? Handover of control at such a critical time seems pretty risky. Shouldn't you have just a bit more faith in your FO's?

[jollypilot]

The aircraft I have flown and the companies I have flown them with all involve the Captain taking control in the event of an RTO when the F/O is PF.

[Dream Land]

Strepsils, not sure if you are a pilot or not, FO's do not perform RTO's, this is briefed before the flight.

[145qrh]

Strepsils sure sounds like a pilot to me, you Dreamland however do not.
Just because your company does it that way doesn't mean everyone has to do it the same way.....as you grow up you will realise that there is more than one way to de-fur a feline..

Some companies, and I personally think the more enlightened ones, train for and allow F/o's to do the reject. As someone else mentioned the changeover of handling at a critical time is a potential disaster area. Although I don't have any personal knowledge of any accident because of it.

Also some companies allow f/o's to do engine starts ...

Also as far as the 330 goes or indeed any Perf A aircraft I have flown , never had a problem keeping it on the centreline during RTO or V1 cut, pretty sure they are certified in a way that checks potential handling problems you may encounter.

[javelin]

Strepsils, we have always had Capt reject the takeoff. When takeoff thrust is set, the Capt takes the thrust levers and he or she decides the stop/go in the event of a rejection. So, if the Capt is PF, the FO calls the occurrence or failure and the Capt decides whether to stop or go.

[Dream Land]

Strepsils, there is no transferring of control on the Airbus, my hands are on the thrust levers and my size 11's are on the rudders! :}
145 I am sure there are many other ways to operate an aircraft that you can enlighten me on someday, waiting in anticipation. :hmm:

[Old Smokey]

The bottom line to this whole discussion is that, if we consider the scenario in the original post, i.e. an engine failure at 70 knots, this is WAY below Vmcg, and the most important of all of the RTO actions is to slam the thrust levers closed so hard, that they hear the clang on the other side of the airport.

Having been involved in Vmcg tests in real aeroplanes, both inside, and observing from the outside, there is nothing guaranteed to cause more immediate and disastrous problems than a less than rapid response to thrust lever closure. A certain moderator in the Tech forum had / has some interesting video footage of Vmcg tests, quite startling, and that was for a fuselage engine mounted 2 engined aircraft, not the wing mounted A320 that you speak of.

Of course, depending upon the state of modernity of the aircraft, rapid thrust lever closure brings other valuable RTO benefits such as Auto-Brake, Spoiler deployment etc.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[Kit d'Rection KG]

...Do you explain to your passengers that they're paying for the safety ensured by having two pilots, but that only one pilot is allowed to do 'important stuff'? If not, why not?

This third-world approach only survives because high speed RTOs are so infrequent.

Before everyone asks, I'm not an FO (far from it).

But I believe: Train, test, trust. Do it all to a very high standard.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

ps A 70kt RTO is a non-event in any perf A jet.

[Dream Land]

Yes I operate in the third world, thank you. Let's see, should we have the 200 hour or the 15,000 hour pilot do it? hmmmm:}

[Kit d'Rection KG]

...or the trained, tested, competent one?

I have seen many very high hour pilots perform only just on the right side of the margins of acceptability. That said, we could ponder a famous remark from a military commander who wanted 'lucky' men close to him...

[Megaton]

Dream Land,

RTOs on A320 practised regularly by both seats and I can't remember anyone ever having great difficulties. Handover of control to LHS occurs at 70 kts.

[Dream Land]

Handover of control to LHS occurs at 70 kts. Not where I fly, the R/H seat is not allowed to taxi either. :eek:

[Megaton]

Why not? Can't you find anyone sufficiently competent to taxi an aircraft?

[Rainboe]

I'm sure they could taxi without any problem, but not without a tiller on the RHS which many operators don't option on!

[Megaton]

Should have joined a different company then!

ps Just in case there's any doubt, I was aware that few 'Bus operators specify a tiller on both sides. :)

[Strepsils]

Dreamland - Yes, I am a pilot, thanks for asking. I'm obviously a very lucky one because even though I'm just an FO my company lets me start engines, taxi, take off, land, reject, brake, even do the walk round!:}

Javelin - Interesting. I'm familiar with Captains only calling Stop, and Captains handling thrust levers, but I read your post as you taking over full control when you call stop, which sounds a bit risky to me. If you were just referring to the fact that you call stop and close the levers whilst the FO brakes and (tries) to keep it straight then it's just my misunderstanding.:ok:

[TheGorrilla]

So what happens when an f/o is made up to captain? He/she having no experience of taxi, RTO etc would have to spend a lot of extra time learning these new things. In my company both pilots perform all these tasks if it's that pilots sector. F/O is even encouraged to make "command type" decisions, under supervision of the captain of course. These means the transition of RHS to LHS is theoretically easier and improves confidence in the f/os handling and decision making abilities.