Radar Provided from another Unit [Archive]

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Grumpy Old ATCO

28th Jan 2007, 15:54

tired-flyboy

28th Jan 2007, 16:23

EGPE getting radar from EGQL

Plenty of threads on this one.

Spitoon

28th Jan 2007, 16:28

Not sure if this is the sort of thing that you've go in mind but the usual concern is that ATC will give some form of preference to traffic using its 'own' airport. In my experience it isn't likely to be a problem - in the normal course of events controllers don't give any aircraft priority over any other unless it helps the traffic flow (or to put it another way, gets them off the frequency as quickly as possible).

To overcome the problem perhaps a jointly-owned company could be set up to provide the ATC services.

There was a precedent for several years in the London area - NATS provided approach services to airports under the TMA, including Luton where Tower was done by locally employed controllers. Maybe Vintage could offer some comments on how this was set up.

chevvron

28th Jan 2007, 17:52

At one time RAE Bedford had a 'Cranfield Radar' controller who was a member of Cranfield ATC; Cranfield had a contract for one radar console at Bedford.
A similar situation existed at Norwich until the closure of Coltishall; Norwich radar was done from Colt on weekdays and from Norwich at weekends

NorthSouth

28th Jan 2007, 19:33

EGPE getting radar from EGQL
Plenty of threads on this one.I think you mean QS. Also City getting radar service from Thames. On the other hand plenty examples of adjacent radar units continuing to provide independent services when they could easily double up: Bristol & Filton; Blackpool & Warton; Manchester & Woodford; Liverpool & Hawarden.
NS

120.4

28th Jan 2007, 20:02

EGKB provided by Thames. In this a case the two westerly approaches cross and potentially interfere with each other at about 10nm but I believe the negative impact on Biggin is minimal.

.4

Grumpy Old ATCO

28th Jan 2007, 22:07

Ok thanks

Does anyone know what type of contractural arrangements these units do/did have and have any units recently thought of contracting out due to lack of APS ATCOs

Are there any out there fancy a MEGA Radar unit providing APS to a number of units.
Or is this what those nice bods at NATS have wet dreams about and have the approval influence and cash to do......

GOA

Roffa

28th Jan 2007, 22:22

Are there any out there fancy a MEGA Radar unit providing APS to a number of units.

You have heard of The London Terminal Control Centre, haven't you?

Approach services provided under one roof for Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton, City and Biggin.

Hold West

28th Jan 2007, 23:20

Are there any out there fancy a MEGA Radar unit providing APS to a number of units.

Sure:

New York TRACON
Potomac TRACON
Southern California TRACON
Northern California TRACON

Hold West

28th Jan 2007, 23:37

We all know about EGGP doing the radar for EGCN, but does anyone have any thoughts or comments on how an open tender request would be recieved for an airfield to have its Radar provided by a separate ANSP, be they close by or with appropriate modern coms from afar.

GOA
;)

While I was working at Dayton, OH back in the mid-90's, Airborne Express (ABX) bought a Westinghouse ASR-9 terminal radar and placed it at their hub airport, Wilmington, OH (KILN). The radar was piped into the Dayton TRACON and ATC service provided by FAA controllers. I don't think ABX paid for any staffing, since we had people there anyway; they could provide much better service, though, using the radar on the field rather than the one many miles away in Dayton. That and ABX's private control tower (which only operated 2300-0700 local time) got the benefit of the radar feed to the tower.

rodan

29th Jan 2007, 00:03

Are there any out there fancy a MEGA Radar unit providing APS to a number of units.
Or is this what those nice bods at NATS have wet dreams about and have the approval influence and cash to do......
Well, there has been talk of a Scottish TC being formed at the New Prestwick Centre when it opens, incorporating PF, PH and PK Approach, and I don't doubt that there exist dreams to include CC, GP and BB. Nothing that hasn't been done before, though, or on a larger scale.

throw a dyce

29th Jan 2007, 07:58

GOA,
Nats provides approach radar at EGPD (BAA), EGPB (HIAL) and offshore sectors between East Shetland basin down to Anglia.It also does tower for EGPD and all from the same building .
I think Nats is contracted for EGPD and EGPB,and provides en-route for NERL.
Well if the PH,PF,PK,approach functions were swallowed into NPC they might get a stonking pay rise.;)

Grumpy Old ATCO

29th Jan 2007, 09:25

Without giving away my feelings on certain NATS units can we all please remember there are @ 16 or 17 other ANSP's at airports.

IMHO NATS will be able to cope with the lack of APS staff.

Without all being swallowed up by them what are the non NATS units going to do as the shortage is now resulting in reduced service provision at certain units.

GOA

AlanM

29th Jan 2007, 09:44

Without giving away my feelings on certain NATS units .....GOA

Prefixed by:

Or is this what those nice bods at NATS have wet dreams about and have the approval influence and cash to do......

.....bit late!??? :)

throw a dyce

29th Jan 2007, 11:10

vintage ATCO

29th Jan 2007, 16:13

There was a precedent for several years in the London area - NATS provided approach services to airports under the TMA, including Luton where Tower was done by locally employed controllers. Maybe Vintage could offer some comments on how this was set up.

Que? We all work for NATS, mate!! :rolleyes: :) :)

Spitoon

29th Jan 2007, 18:20

Que? We all work for NATS, mate!! :rolleyes: :) :)Now, yes.

But maybe my memory fails me - when I think about it perhaps you only started working for NATS when the GW approach function was absorbed into TC. Is that more like it?

Sadly I'm old enough to remember SRAs being done on a rather basic radar, an ACR430 if I recall correctly - or am I just going dolally?

vintage ATCO

29th Jan 2007, 18:28

Sort of. We were contracted out to NATS in Nov 2000. The radar moved in Feb 2001. The original plan was only to contract out the radar but some good looking bloke persuaded them to contract out the lot. ;)

ACR430? Did over 500 half mile SRAs on that. :ok:

Eric T Cartman

29th Jan 2007, 19:43

GOA,
I think Nats is contracted for EGPD and EGPB,and provides en-route for NERL.
Well if the PH,PF,PK,approach functions were swallowed into NPC they might get a stonking pay rise[/U].;)
Oh yes please - where do I sign ?! :ok:

spekesoftly

29th Jan 2007, 21:30

Well, there has been talk of a Scottish TC being formed at the New Prestwick Centre when it opens, incorporating PF, PH and PK Approach.

Deja vu! When the new ground floor radar room was built at PF in the early 80s, its generous size was allegedly to accommodate PF, PH and PK Approach.

Grumpy Old ATCO

29th Jan 2007, 22:08

GOA,
I think that other ANSP's have done ok from Nats over the years.When I went through the system,if you didn't fully validate you were out.So ''Non state'' employed a lot but Nats/CAA trained them.
Perhaps ANSP's including NATS should have more respect,and better employment packages for scarce APS controllers..:ok:

Perhaps so and there have been many very good ex NATS guys and girls move through the non NATS system. But the times of picking up anybody with radar qualifications are gone. Most certainly the drawer with ADI applications is full but how do we all continue to provide a radar service when it takes 3 months to resign and move on and up to 12 months to send someone to the college( if the bean counters will let go of the fees) and then train them as a replacement.

The question still remains is there any sense in the non NATS units getting together to produce a APS centre of excellence that can recruit and retain economically, or do we all queue up at the NATS commercial departments door and ask for a deal.

spekesoftly

spookey I remember that concept well

GOA