endorsements for a foreign based license

[Heli+]

Hello,
I have a student who has a temporary FAA license (private) based on a foreign license (Europe). This student is training for his commercial.
Most of the Europeans don't have night flight privileges.
Now, in order to get his commercial requirements he needs solo night flights.
What endorsement exactly do I have to write and what FAR § is it referring to?
In AC61-65E I found only 2 endorsements: student solo night flight 61.87 and to act as PIC without category/class rating 61.31.
However the first one applies to student pilot certificates which the pilot never had and the latter one is regarding to category/class whereas night flying is a privilege.
My FAA guy wanted to call me back, but hasn't done so yet.
I hope somebody here has done that before and knows about the regulations. It's not that we couldn't do it somehow, but I am really interested in the very correct way.
If you can help me with the previous you might be able to clarify the following, too:
What does a pilot holding a FAA based-on license need to log PIC hours. Especially regarding to Robinson helicopters. Does he need a BFR endorsement and a SFAR73 endorsement? We gave him both, but on his license it says "issued on the basis of the Austrian license ... all limitations and restrictions apply".
So I don't see why he needs the endorsements at all because he could fly a Austrian registered aircraft as PIC anytime.

[HillerBee]

If he doesn't have a night rating in his Austrian license, obviously you have to check that (together with other possible restrictions) because it's a FAA license based on, then he could go night flying on his own. But ffor his CPL you have to do 5 hours of night dual and that will be enough. You can give him the night solo privileges but you don't have to. (I would though, just to be save)

In order to fly N-Reg in the US he has the FAA license. So you just treat it as a FAA license. The training/type rating he has in his Austrian license doesn't mean anything.

You always have to do a Flight Review (24 months) and in this case the SFAR73. (12 Months)

Don't let the Austrian license put you in jeopardy.


HillerBee CFI

[Heli+]

> obviously you have to check that (together with other possible restrictions)
I know, that he has no night privileges in Austria (it is a kind of IFR rating there!).

> But ffor his CPL you have to do 5 hours of night dual and that will be
No, $ 61.129 (c) requires 2 hours of night VFR dual cross country and 5 hours SOLO night VFR.

> You can give him the night solo privileges but you don't have to. (I would
I think I have to, otherwise he couldn't do his requirements. But what endorsement do I give him? What § refer to? Just write something that "sounds good" by myself?

> You always have to do a Flight Review (24 months) and in this case the
> SFAR73. (12 Months)
Do you know if I can do these checkouts before he gets his temporary? They just want to log PIC as soon as possible. I assume he could log PIC on the flight back from the FSDO where he got his temporary minutes ago IF we had done the BFR stuff the day before.

[N-01]

Technically he/she is a student pilot, due to them not holding any night privileges on their foreign license. Therefore the instructor concerned would need to endorse the back of his/her student pilot certificate, to allow solo flight privileges and issue the following endorsement in the back of their logbook.

Presolo Flight training at night:-61.87 ( c ) and (o)

I certify that (first name, MI, Last name) has received the required presolo training in a (make and Model aircraft). I have determined he/she has demonstrated the proficiency of 61.87(o) and is proficient to make solo flights in a (make and model).

[Heli+]

But he doesn't have a student pilot certificate! He has a normal 2nd class medical (the white one). Even if he had asked me, i wouldn't have told him to get a student pilot certificate/medical. I never thought of this problem.

[PicMas]

Have had this exact problem myself a while back.

For local flights ie. landings training area:

I hereby certify that I have given Mr./ Mrs. ............... the flight training mentioned in 14 CFR part 61.87(o), and find him/ her competent to conduct safe night solo flights to and from (insert airports in the vicinity or training area here) and (base airport)

Signed.... yadda yadda exp. yadda yadda

This endorsement is valid for 90 days, in order to endorse the students logbook you should (have to!) conduct training at night to include navigation to and from the practice area, navigation to and from any foreign airports for landing practice including joining the traffic pattern. Landings at night.

This brings up the next issue discussed.
Since the student is flying on a validated license without nightflying privileges, you should (have to!) endorse the presolo type as you would a student pilot ie. the make and model endorsement.

Additional endorsement for cross-country flights at night is also type-specific. (61.93)

So...

2 endorsements for solo night flights
3 include cross country

Regards

MAS

[Heli+]

Hello,

after having talked to a DE and a FSDO I figured out the following.
Solo flight at night is ONLY possible with either a student pilot license and proper endorsements or with a unrestricted US license. :ugh:

For foreign pilots there are 3 ways if they already hold a based-on PPL:

- surrender the based-on and get a student pilot license (because you can only hold one at a time), get the endorsements and fly night solo. Then get the based-on back and go to the commercial checkride.

- surrender the based-on and get a student pilot license (because you can only hold one at a time), get the endorsements and fly night solo. Then go to a combined checkride for private and commercial (if the examiner is ok with that).

- go to a private checkride and get the normal US license, fly the 5 hours solo at night and go to the commercial checkride.


To make it clear: You can NOT give a private pilot any endorsement that allows him to fly solo at night!
§ 61.87 (o) only applies to student pilots (holding a student pilot license!):\

It gets worse if you know that you can endorse a PP to solo an aircraft he is not rated in. This does not apply here, because he IS rated in the aircraft, but not for night flight!!! This is a restriction of his foreign license.

[rudestuff]

Surely a foreign based pilot cert would have some kind of "Night flight prohibited" endorsement if the holder didn'thave a night rating?
If that were the case, could you not just treat it like you would an Alaskan license with no night time - and give them the required training and sign-off?
(After all - no flight test is required to be taken at night)

[Heli+]

Hi,

as I said, there is no way. Talked to 2 FSDOs and both agreed that the FAR does not provide an easy way.
If you apply common sense it should not be the slightest problem. There are so many ways around that if your papers are a little different.:\

And the Alaska thing applies to Alaskan schools and residents, the night solo endorsement to student pilot certificates. :=

There is nothing in that regards that applies to a US private pilot license based on a foreign license. It's just a pain in the ass. :yuk:

[chrisbl]

Dont surrender the based on licence, just nip to an AME and get a student licence issued. The commercial can be done with a FAA class 3, the class 2 is only needed to exercise the privileges.

Then make the necessary endorsements on the student certificate and log book. The cost $80, no big deal in the context of everything and solves the problem.

[Heli+]

It's not that easy. You cannot hold a student pilot license and a private pilot license at the same time. Therefore you have to surrender your private in order to get a student.
As one already holds a medical, a student pilot license can be issued by any FAA Examiner (not medical!) for free without hassle.

But 2 students now have voted for a checkride, although that means at least 600$ higher costs. They just don't have time for all that bureaucracy with the other method (our FSDO is 3h of driving/ 2 flying away :-(

[Displcd Brit]

This is covered in FAA Publication 8700.1 which is available from
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8700/

It states in Section R part 4:

To clarify night
flying restrictions: while the FAA may not remove the
night flying restriction, it is permissible for a foreign
pilot who receives a U.S. pilot certificate on the basis
of their foreign-pilot license to accomplish the
required night flying training (for the appropriate
grade level of U.S. pilot certificate held) from a holder
of an FAA Flight Instructor Certificate, and receive a
solo endorsement to exercise NIGHT FLYING
PRIVILEGES on their U.S. PILOT CERTIFICATE.


Incidentally, this document contains much useful information for those of using "on the basis of" licenses, in particular what the FAA mean by current or valid (they simply mean not cancelled or revoked) with respect to the underlying foreign license.

[Heli+]

Thank you very much for this hint!
After having talked to FSDO and DE we now can endorse our restricted private students again for night flight.
No checkride, student pilot license or other hassle. Thanks for clarifying!