On pilot shortages and stuff

[paco]

Am I right in thinking that the current "pilot shortage" is still a shortage of experienced pilots who will work for the money offered, or has that now changed to a genuine shortage?

I only ask because I know of a couple of jobs (in Europe) for which there really hasn't been the material available - it's not just the heavy training costs to take the people on, but their sheer lack of experience in the first place. I mean, surely the N Sea companies wouldn't be forking out for so much IR training if it were otherwise?

I recognise the signs from a period just before Air Europe folded (many moons and many buffalo ago) when you couldn't get on a (fixed wing) pilot course for four years, and many companies went bust because they couldn't get pilots. Instrument rated pilots were being hauled off the N Sea and Madrid Centre was severely understaffed because the Air Trifficers had all gone flying, if memory serves. If that is what's coming for the helicopter industry, then it's time we did something about it.

Phil

[GoodGrief]

I am experienced, not offshore, no JAA-IR though, nobody wants me:uhoh:
No bonding, no loan in my name.
I'm no job hopper.
What's wrong ?

There is no shortage.

GG

[verticalhold]

Phil;

Sadly I think it is now a proper shortage of experienced pilots. Salaries for onshore have now reached a level where they are starting to affect pricing(with small margins salaries are a major chunk of the cash) A pilot recently negotiated a salary of £80 000 on-shore.

We are losing experience at a frightening rate of knots and the younger guys are fighting to gain experience in a very restrictive market. The operators don't have the budget to train new pilots and certainly aren't going to put new pilots through the IR when there is no guarantee that the trainee will stay with them long enough for the ink to dry on the rating.

For the first time I recently binned a CV when the sender phoned me up in response to my acknowledgement letter. He was to say the least of it bloody agressive about why an operator should pay for him to do an IR. He certainly wouldn't listen to my arguments that training costs have to come out of whatever limited profits there are. Our owners pay management fees and the rest is public transport, where we are competing against everyone else at pretty much the same prices. When I asked if he would be prepared to do a partial pay back from salary or a two year bond for an operator his attitude was "why should I?"

He had 650 hours, 640 R22 and 10 B206, and an ego which made me doubt his suitability for aircrew, let alone dealing with VIP passengers. The few guys leaving the military seem to be heading straight for the airlines and for the self sponsored the costs are becoming prohibitive. Also the customers are becoming more aware. They talk to each other and hear of Mick Goss and Max Radford and others. They are unaware of the circumstances of the accidents but don't realise it. Rich people died and they are rich people so they try to improve their own safety. 40% of our public transport flights are 2 crew on single crew aircraft! OK its easy money but it b:mad: s up the duty hours and can leave us short.

The two crew jobs would ideal to put inexperienced guys on. Sadly they are often last minute and then we have to go with whoever is available.

The situaton is going to get worse before it gets better. Will the last one to leave please switch out the lights.

[GoodGrief]

There are two sides to the bonding story:

You pay for type rating, IR and MCC, bond me for 3 to 5 years.
That means you have a trained pilot and I have a save and well paid job for that time with the strong option of extension.

Where is the problem ?

He who runs away after being trained will be blacklisted anyway.

Fairness should go both ways...

[Whirlygig]

I think verticalhold was pointing out the problem in attitude. Hours and ratings do not necessarily make a team player!!

Cheers

Whirls

[GoodGrief]

You can't survive in this industry if you're not a team player.
640 hours R22 means you might have experience as instructor, but none in VIP, they don't fly in R22s, no filming, photo,no two pilot crew...and so on.
So basically a complete virgin.

[verticalhold]

GoodGrief;
Absolutely. Would have been prepared to help him pop his cherry had he been prepared to to a deal on a twin rating. Five minutes into the conversation I decided he could take the nuns approach to life.
To get into VIP you need to start somewhere. For the right person we are prepared to bend our rules, persuade our owners or pretty much anything except compromise our standards. Sadly the money for investment in others is limited, however we do give our time and some cash where it is worth it.

And some operators will look the other way if a trained pilot makes himself available. The black list is more myth than reallity.

Be interested to know your experience. PM me if you like. I may not be able to help, but you form a major part of the future of this industry.

VH

[starshiptrooper]

32 yrs old, ex QSP, nearly 1400 hrs, 1200 TT, flown all over the world, ATPL (A) and (H) though no IR, and I cant get a whisper of a job (and I've phoned up a multitude of people).

Its a myth........

And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).

Waiting for abuse........

[tecpilot]

I couldn't see a "pilot shortage" in Europe. May be a shortage of pilots willing to do a job for peanuts. After long years in this business i think i have never seen so much pressure to the pilots to work more, to earn less and to take more risks in flying. I know a lot of pilots having more than 5000 hours, several ratings in her mid forties and burned out by the daily job searching hard to find a better engagement. Longlining, ag/forestry work, fire, short the aerial work is under big pressure. Also the EMS sectors have lowered entry earns and social benefits compared to the increasing life costs. A lot of operators have closed and the new operators and the older chiefs still in the business handle the usual pilot just as a short term "cost factor" and never looking into the future.
The flight schools telling myths about a bright future to the new guys, we have a lot of frustrated military pilots ready to cancel the mil job immediately and all are ready to work for allways lower incomes.
May be the offshore business is better but onshore the situation isn't good.

[helimutt]

32 yrs old, ex QSP, nearly 1400 hrs, 1200 TT, flown all over the world, ATPL (A) and (H) though no IR, and I cant get a whisper of a job (and I've phoned up a multitude of people).

Its a myth........

And please dont go down the line of I'm a wee pimpsqueek with 1400hrs. My hrs would be worth double if not treble of a off-shore pilot qualified from 200hrs who now has 2500hrs flying from rig to rig (no insult intended).

Waiting for abuse........

Well you knew someone would respond to this. I think that some people don't have a clue about offshore flying. How about 10 sectors+ per day, short hops from rig to rig in say a Dauphin or S76 (old ones too) and in quite demanding weather. It's not exactly an easy life is it? A lot more demanding than flying VIPs around in a lovely new S76 or similar and then only from airport to airport or large legal grass area! Hours aren't everything! Having the right attitude, as mentioned above, is a major part of the game here.

[ShyTorque]

How about 14+ sectors a day, IFR and fully IMC between non-airfield locations, some of them as demanding as oil rigs but without the benefit of a local navaid? Onshore corporate work isn't all as easy as some might think, either. ;)

[Bravo73]

32 yrs old, ex QSP, nearly 1400 hrs, 1200 TT, flown all over the world, ATPL (A) and (H) though no IR, and I cant get a whisper of a job (and I've phoned up a multitude of people).


Sorry to be a pedant, but with those hours and no IR, you don't have either an ATPL(A) or ATPL(H). You have a CPL(A/H) with ATPL theory credits. A totally different beast.

To have a decent look-in at an onshore job in the UK, you'll need either an IR or FI to go with your CPL. If you've got either (and are willing to move), there are jobs available.

Actually, have you considered moving to Scotland? (If you aren't there already!) PDG were advertising for VFR drivers recently. Although I think that they were looking for 2000hrs TT min...

[MINself]

(and are willing to move)


Spot on Bravo73, IMO this is one of the key elements, its the willingness to go where ever the work is (certainly with your hours and when trying to get a first "civvy" job) and being flexible with hours, holiday, salary ... etc etc will undoubtebly help.

As someone once said "get on your bike" and get out to see the folk that can help you get started in this industry, solely sending out CVs is only adding to the tens of similar CVs these helicopter operators see each week, it'll be what makes you stand out that gets you a job.

Good luck

MS

[332mistress]

There is certainly a shortage of experienced pilots for the offshore companies due to several factors; the main one being a whole generation of experienced co-pilots left the industry in the late 1990s for fixed wing. This left a big hole that has been impossible to fill with suitably qualified ex-mil or civilian pilots.

There are plenty of applicants for any vacant co-pilot positions but the quality of applicants seems to be poor. They are failing interviews, psychometric testing, sim checks, and should they pass all those hurdles they are even failing company sponsored IRs and line checks, which is very disturbing. This has led the companies to be very wary of candidates who are not in possession of an IR.

What is the solution? To be honest I don't have an easy answer for the experience problem but I think that the companies may be forced/convinced that a sponsorship program for selected pilots may be the way forward as at the moment the only selection being done is by money - can the applicant afford to finance their own training.

This is not working as can be seen by the present failure rate. Somebody may be able to safely fly a R22 in day VFR but doesn't have the spare capacity to fly a complex twin down to offshore minimums, at night, to moving deck so some form of selection is needed right at the start of the training process to minimise the failure rate. Bond had a sponsored pilot intake in the late 1980s that all made the grade so a precedent has been set.

332M

[Xavier Dosh]

Afternoon all!

An interesting post which has generated some mixed responses..

I think that there maybe different job prospects in different parts of Europe. Although, I would say confidently that 2006 was a buoyant year for helicopter charter in the U.K and it would appear that 2007 is going to be the same. (Touch wood) However, there are a number of experienced pilots with and without IRs that have retired or are about to retire. It is very difficult to find well presented, capable and confident pilots that will be able to launch off on a charter and operate to the standard that is now required / expected. 2006 has proven that and there really was a shortage of pilots throughout the year.

The helicopter charter market has / is becoming more sophisticated and aircraft are more reliable now. The stigma that has been attached to helicopter charter historically was that if the weather is bad the passengers will assume that they may not get there. That is not so true anymore. Whilst it is not essential that a pilot should havean IR – I would suggest that most, if not all, IFR Operators in the U.K would have to ponder over offering a non IR pilot a salaried position within the company. There is no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft…

I’m not suggesting that we all have a ‘like it or lump it’ attitude, far from it! However, there are huge costs related to running an AOC and it maybe that we would require some financial input from a future IR Pilot to get the wheels in motion. As vertical hold says, if we can ‘do a deal’, it makes the future a little more promising.

I agree with Verticleholds sentiments entirely – it really is a question of attitude and ability, not one or the other.

I hope that sounds like a reasonably balanced point of view?

XD

[greenthumb]

In the last years there was only a limited interest in IR pilots. Just some offshore guys and very few exec pilots. An other operator wasn't interested. Doesn't assist his pilots to hold IR and tried only to limit his costs. You couldn't get a bonus if you are a IR pilot. Knowing big onshore operators with twins which told their pilots "we are operating this SA330 or BK117 only VFR day and night, your IR isn't our thing. You have to pay if you want our helicopters to stay current". I know some pilots today without IR because they couldn't hold their IR current on own pay. Also up to today the most VFR operators doesn't give pilots at least a small bonus for lot's of hours, FI/TRI ratings or other experiences. "Our entry offer is this, take it or leave! There are so many hungry pilots out there!" :=
It's the same with the FI ratings, if your company don't need at the moment a FI nobody will assist you. May be next year they need someone and crying "There are no experienced pilots!".
Ratings are expensive. It's no fun to get an IR or FI rating! How many years you have to work for it? And what's the average pay outside this offshore guys? :yuk:

A pilot recently negotiated a salary of £80 000 on-shore.

Working in an expensive country in Europe and i have never, never heard about a normal onshore pilot earning so much money :E Understand it as 120.000€ a year?

[BRASSEMUP]

Well i sadly only have a CPL(H), the IR route is a bit expensive but hopefully with my 2200 hrs turbine somebody might want me. But i intend to get on my bike and go visit the companies. As a Mil pilot you realise it doesn't come to he who waits! Watch this space!!!

[AB139engineer]

In Reguard To Pilots Not Being Able To Find Work I Am Surprised That No One Has Mentioned The High Cost Of Insuring Low Time Pilots. If A Company Has A Few Incidents In Its Past There Rates Will Be Very High, And Less Likely To Hire A Low Time Pilot That Statistically Is More Risk Than A Seasoned Accident Free High Timer.

Another Issue I See All The Time Is A Company Invests Time , Money And Aircraft Use For Upgrading Pilots And Then The Pilot Quits And Goes To Work For Another Company. No Wonder Companies Are So Selective About Hiring !

[tecpilot]

From 1000h upward there should be no difference in insuring. And most companies have a company insurance contract (fleet contract) and it makes no difference if they hire a 1000h pilot to the other pilots. This insurance problem exist only for small companies and very low time pilots.
...And Goes To Work For Another Company
The operator talk allways to his pilots they have to be "flexible with working hours, holiday, salary, home ..." why he is surprised if a pilot leave in case of a better offer? He could take also the most "flexible" company. If the working and salary conditions are good no pilot will leave suddenly a good environment!

[tribal]

I think 1000 hrs is very low time. Of course with backround experience, you will find pilots with higher levels of skill for the amount of hours logged. I have seen also 10,000 hour pilots who werent much chop either. Attitude does have a lot to do with it, and a lot of pilots fall on their feet thru luck as well. Psychometric testing and the like is a load of crap in selection processes. If you are lucky enough to strike an interview with a manager who is willing to actually listen to you intead of himself would be a dream as well. Good luck to all who are out there actively persuing this thankless career. ( once you get over the biggles thing, that is)

[Hedski]

I agree with both sides to the recruitment of low timers issue. Yes they need to be hungry for the job and willing to start at the bottom, accept lesser income due to lack of experience. But this is a highly skilled and demanding industry requiring the very best, and more recently much investment to become successfully recruited into (IR/ME types on licence etc.)
However, there seems to be a massive gap between offshore and onshore pay. As previously mentioned both have their own specific skills and potential pitfalls in very different ways at times. Surely this would then indicate that a HEMS/police/corporate IR pilot operating at night or landing in confined sometimes unlit areas would have and/or require a similar high skill level to an offshore/SAR captain operating over water in potential icing and horrendous winds with moving decks or a man dangling 150' on the winch wire.
Starting salaries for the former are about 40k (correct me if inaccurate please), perhaps 60k on the corporate front versus offshore earnings 65k through 85k. Surely there are as many risks of similar value on both sides so why the discrepancy.
Bond onshore recently lowered their hours minima for HEMS, this may help highly skilled pilots with lower but high quality hours be recruited....... or will it open flood gates to mere potential bums on seats with less to offer in demanding situations. Either way this was the option taken before raising salaries!!:=
Police operators seem to request and pay similar but the number of military retirees is ever decreasing. I have been requested by one PAOC operator to submit my CV upon reaching the minimum 1500TT, but for 40k to live in the expensive areas of the UK????? I'm an offshore FO earning at least 10k more than the offering on the table and living in an area of less expense, yet I have a mere 1000TT. Am I really going to jump at that chance?:hmm:
This is not to rub it in to those less fortunate, merely to highlight the pending shortage of relative experience required for the roles mentioned above.
Interestingly a former training colleague of mine was recruited by one offshore operator and is embarking on a successful offshore career but a rival company didn't so much as acknowledge his application to them, not the first instance of this either. And they wonder why we are struggling with WTD, fatigue etc......:ugh:
Things will get ugly before they get better...........!!!! Standby for carnage.:E

[tecpilot]

yes, there is a shortage of people with 2,000 turbine hours, 500 twin, 300 low-level, 300 night, 100 NVG etc. who the hell has that kind of experience?


Not so few, as you think! Ex mil, sure. Plus IR!
But with this experience you can earn onshore in an average european EMS or police environment around 35k £. If you have such a hype in salaries in the UK sure a lot of EC people will move next time :)

[HillerBee]

If there is a shortage, why does a good friend of mine who is working onshore 2500 hrs. 2000+ pic, 300 ME, 900 Turbine, CPL(H), FI(H), IR(A) however, not even get a reply from CHC, Bristows and Bond?? And that's what I hear all the time.

I think the likes of CHC and Bristows might have an attitude problem, I understand if low-times who absolutely don't meet any requirement don't get a reply, but serious applications is a different matter.

[bb in ca]

If there is a shortage, why does a good friend of mine who is working onshore 2500 hrs. 2000+ pic, 300 ME, 900 Turbine, CPL(H), FI(H), IR(A) however, not even get a reply from CHC, Bristows and Bond?? And that's what I hear all the time.
I think the likes of CHC and Bristows might have an attitude problem, I understand if low-times who absolutely don't meet any requirement don't get a reply, but serious applications is a different matter.

HillerBee,

I think for the most part offshore companies are looking for experienced and qualified captains not good candidates for new first-officers.

Quite often they have to use foreign nationals in the country of operations thus they fill the position of first officer.

My 2 cents,
bb

[robsrich]

An Australian company recently advertised for line pilots (turbines) and got very few replies from Oz; however, a good number from NZ drivers who had the qualifications. A puzzle to say the least and this problem has occurred before. A lot of NZ instructors are coming over to work in Australian schools. So why is this so? Where are the boys from Oz?

Some observers suggest that CHC and other large companies are sucking the system dry of these mid level blokes.

Another said that the CASA needs (paperwork) for a Chief Pilot or a CFI were too onerous when there was plenty of flying without the need to go up that next rung of the career ladder.

So how will a specialised power line company fare when their Chief Pilot moves to a job closer to home. The cupboard seems bare to say the least in Oz.

Anyhow the good news is that an advert will appear in an Australian newspaper on Fri 26 Jan '07. I believe they are a good company, doing a difficult job in the electrical distribution industry and are recognised through out the world as being good at their work. With ten machines and some overseas work; they are somewhat different (more professional) than some of the other operators.
This is due in part to the strict auditing and QA imposed on them by their clients, so everything has to be by the book.

So if you can go up that "next rung" on your career ladder, then give it a go!

The about to be advertised job reads as follows:

CHIEF PILOT

Aeropower is Australia's leading electrical contractor with extensive
experience in power line maintenance and construction. The Chief Pilot will
be responsible for more than ten helicopters in this very specialized
industry.

Minimum requirements:

. Commercial Helicopter Licence
. Relevant power line experience
. 2,000 hours on helicopters
. 100 hours MD500/H369D/E and 100 hours low level.

Attractive salary package based on experience and qualifications will be offered.

Please direct all enquiries by 02/02/07 to:
[email protected]
(07) 3204 1280

[HillerBee]

HillerBee,
I think for the most part offshore companies are looking for experienced and qualified captains not good candidates for new first-officers.
Quite often they have to use foreign nationals in the country of operations thus they fill the position of first officer.
My 2 cents,
bb

But is someone with 2500 hrs. not much closer to captaincy then a 200 hr 'wonder'. So I still don't understand it.

[Bravo73]

But is someone with 2500 hrs. not much closer to captaincy then a 200 hr 'wonder'. So I still don't understand it.

Not necessarily. And especially not if he's a 'dyed in the wool' single pilot, VFR driver.

Although he might well have better situational awareness and aircraft control, it might be harder to 'mould' him into a multicrew, 'procedural' co-pilot.

[BaronG]

However, there seems to be a massive gap between offshore and onshore pay. As previously mentioned both have their own specific skills and potential pitfalls in very different ways at times. Surely this would then indicate that a HEMS/police/corporate IR pilot operating at night or landing in confined sometimes unlit areas would have and/or require a similar high skill level to an offshore/SAR captain operating over water in potential icing and horrendous winds with moving decks or a man dangling 150' on the winch wire.
Starting salaries for the former are about 40k (correct me if inaccurate please), perhaps 60k on the corporate front versus offshore earnings 65k through 85k. Surely there are as many risks of similar value on both sides so why the discrepancy.

I really don't have sufficient time in the industry to say for sure, but from what I hear/understand, the difference (or perhaps one difference) is unionisation.

BALPA are the ones who have dragged the offshore pay and conditions to a better level than they were...

[Staticdroop]

Hillerbee,
The offshore companies prefer low hour pilots as they can be molded to the company requirements over the years, they do occasionally require to recruit high hour captains but they generally prefer co-pilots, the problem is there are plenty of them.

[HillerBee]

Hillerbee,
The offshore companies prefer low hour pilots as they can be molded to the company requirements over the years, they do occasionally require to recruit high hour captains but they generally prefer co-pilots, the problem is there are plenty of them.

I do understand that. But if there was a real shortage, it wouldn't matter anymore, they would need bums on seats. So I do not think there is a real shortage.

Btw. I heard Bristows even has a recruitment freeze at the moment.

[i4iq]

Well maybe the good news for 2007 will help the industry...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6294661.stm

[Hedski]

I agree BaronG, as a member I must say BALPA are greatly responsible for the strengthened position we find ourselves in. The power of collective bargaining.......:ok:
Interestingly the lower north sea salaries, for co-pilots at least, are with the firm that refuse to deal with BALPA. Their onshore HEMS counterpart sound no better for willingness to deal with a pilots union for pretty much anything, the payscales reflect this.:ugh: Employees of that skill level deserve better. Lets hope someone pushes to have this reflected, and not be dictated to.
If anything here is inaccurate I gladly await correction.
H

[starshiptrooper]

To all the Offshore pilot I offended..........my point on the hours was mentioned to be by an on-shore company pilot, who was actaully ex off-shore. I have no doubt what you guys do is extremely demanding and pretty fiesty at times...............I know believe me !

My point was more on overall experience i.e. hot/high/mountains/snow/desert ???? etc etc

I hoping you get my point now !

Suppose just frustrated at lack of progress getting work.....look likes the bank manager will be rubbing his hands in glee when I ask for the 20k (incl type rating) to do an IR !!

Any more abuse ???

[helimutt]

If you can find somewhere that you can can do the IR for 20k then post the company here as i'm sure lots of eople would be interested. I know there are companies that advertise for £19k plus some, but with a type rating, accom costs, licence issue and tests, not to mention partials etc, you will be easily looking at £30k.

Don't know what Tiger are charging for IR on the 109 sim they now have but all companies seem busy and heard that CHC will continue recruiting for at least the next year. Time for some to bit e the bullet and to do an IR I guess.

Safe flying!

[AJF]

I just wanted to shed some positive news on CHC, as i am a 200 hour pilot looking for a job and they have replied to my emails, as did Bristows. however no job, but a reply atleast.
Cheers
AJF

[BRASSEMUP]

I agree with AJF, although i have had no dealings with Bristows. CHC HR dept in Aberdeen are really helpfull.:ok:

[helimutt]

CHC HR are very helpful as anyone who has had dealings with them will know. 200hrs or not, there's plenty of similar people just been taken on and had their IR's paid for!