Reporting of passing FL

[BeforeStart]

I was having a discussion with my colleague the other day about wether or not to always report your passing FL on initial contact.

My viewpoint was to always report it since for instance Maastricht seems to prompt you if you don´t. He then showed me a copy of CAP 4-something regarding the UK requirements to do this and apparently you only have to do this on initial contact with approach or departure.

However, we all seem to be doing it - in other countries as well as in the UK?

My company doesn´t have it written down specifically that you have to do it all the time but it´s beeing taught in the sim and by linetrainers.

So what is the most correct thing to do?

[ILS 119.5]

On initial contact pass it as it enables the controllers to verify that the mode c is working correctly and within its parameters.

[the dean]

most guys i know would say it as a matter of course...on first contact...whether going up or down..just as you might say if you were on a radar heading...or give a squawk number...( for a position report).

i would assume ATC would like to know to confirm what they probably can see anyway..??

the dean.

[nosewheelfirst]

CAP 413 says that we dont need to say it so why say it? Surley is just clutters the freqs with unnecessary chat? Hard enough to get a word edgeways in London sometimes.

[millerman]

As a Maastricht controller - we would expect you to confirm your (passing) level upon initial contact with the centre. If we don't hear it, we are supposed to ask for confirmation to verify your mode C. Also the figure you give us is should be within 300ft of what we see on the screen - otherwise mode C is not verified and we should ask you again, or if there is no traffic to effect you, we can wait until you have levelled off and verify you are maintaining the assigned level.
When you are transferred to another Maastricht sector you don't have to confirm your passing level as we assume the first sector has already verified your mode C. I would assume this is the same proceedure used in most centres.:)
Hope this helps.

Millerman

[Funk]

:ugh: we have to do it for departures out of Dubai even though we're off the same radar feed, the mangements response is that becasue the a/c has crossed from one centre to the other it is treated the same as crossing FIR's.

If you're a driver in and out of the UAE pls just us your passing level that way I won't have to think of five different ways of getting the info out of you

ATCO 'report level passing'
Pilot 'wilco'
silence
ATCO 'report your level passing now'
Pilot 'roger report reaching flt level three six zero'
ATCO 'please report your altitude passing now for Mode Charlie verification'
Pilot 'yes we are squawking XXXX'
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[airac]

ATCO 'report level passing'


Yoda speak is that for " Report your level"

generic term is that

[BYMONEK]

Funk

Please tell me it wasn't an EK aircraft..........surely not?

[Not Long Now]

London TMA: report passing alt/level on first contact with radar unit to verify mode c, after that just cleared alt/level thanks. If someone's checked your mode c once already that's enough for us. Yes, OK, how do you know which is the first radar unit? Well in/around london, if it's not the tower you're talking to, that's a radar unit.

[rodan]

ATCO 'report level passing'
Yoda speak is that for " Report your level"
generic term is that

True, but 'report your level' will often ellicit "Uh, we're climbing to FL 80" or similar, when 'report passing level' will provide the desired information.

[Kak Klaxon]

Ok, did we not have a thing a few years back when we were told to report passing and cleared levels on all freq changes in the uk.

I remember how hard it was to get in the habit,has it changed back to the old way now.

FODCOMs ,AICs ,OPS manuals ,BALPA newsletters ,PRUNE ,Training meetings,I must of got the above from somewhere or did I invent it?

Help please:confused:

[1985]

And to confuse the issue a little more, don't forget that there are two centres in the UK that use the callsign London.

I would expect to be told what level you are passing and the level you are climbing/descending to.

[FlightDetent]

CAP 413 says that we dont need to say it so why say it? Surley is just clutters the freqs with unnecessary chat? Hard enough to get a word edgeways in London sometimes.


Because, CAP 413 and other truly nice NATS and CAA UK posters are valid for UK airspace. So, when you fly outside EGTT FIR, you are, politely asked, to adhere to procedures valid elsewhere. If that includes proper position reporting as per ICAO PANS-ATM and ICAO DOC 7030/4 EUR, that may just be the case. Full stop.

[FlightDetent]

The UK standards are to my knowledge, best summarised here (http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/intl/natssurvey112006.pdf) (pdf file).

Yours,
FD
(the un-real)

[camisa10]

ICAO PANS-ATM document (doc.4444)
8.5.4. Level information based on the use of Mode C
8.5.4.1.2 Verification of the accuracy of Mode C-derived
level information displayed to the controller shall be effected at
least once by each suitably equipped ATC unit on initial contact
with the aircraft concerned or, if this is not feasible, as soon as
possible thereafter. The verification shall be effected by
simultaneous comparison with altimeter-derived level
information received from the same aircraft by radiotelephony.
The pilot of the aircraft whose Mode C-derived level
information is within the approved tolerance value need not be
advised of such verification.

[Kak Klaxon]

Well I am sorry but I have been waisting loads of time in the past few years saying the wrong thing.I have no idea where I got the wrong info from but I will stop now.:\

[javelin]

So, to summarise,

In the UK, only the cleared level.

Abroad, passing level and cleared level :ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Javelin

So, to summarise,

In the UK, only the cleared level.

Abroad, passing level and cleared level E]

Thats too simplistic as there are cases in the UK where you also have to report your passing level.



UK AIP ENR 1-1-3-1


1.1.1
The initial call changing radio frequency shall contain only the aircraft identification and flight level. Any subsequent report shall contain aircraft identification, position and time except as provided for in respect of helicopter operations in the areas specified in paragraph 1.1 (d) above.


Note: When changing frequency between any of the London Control, Scottish Control or Manchester Control Centres, pilots are required to state their callsign and Flight Level/Altitudes only (plus any other details when specifically instructed by ATC). When the aircraft is in level flight but cleared to another FL/ALT, both FL/ALT should be passed. Similarly, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the pilot should state the FL/ALT through which the aircraft is passing and the FL/ALT to which it is cleared.

[Kak Klaxon]

Oh my gosh,it gets worse,can the grown ups at the CAA and NATS get together and sort this out,when they have done that can they sort out app ban points,is it

A 1000 feet AGL
B The FAF
C The outer marker
D 4 nm

Let us workers know when you have the answer because I know you read Prune.:mad:

[airac]

Oh my gosh,it gets worse,can the grown ups at the CAA and NATS get together and sort this out,when they have done that can they sort out app ban points,is it
A 1000 feet AGL
B The FAF
C The outer marker
D 4 nm
Let us workers know when you have the answer because I know you read Prune.:mad:


Err Ithink you'll find its none of the above but the Minima and if that fails the absolute minima per type of approach

But back to the original subject

[Kak Klaxon]

OK I have no idea what you are talking about airac,I ment when its foggy on cat1 and 2 landings but no ones really interested so I give up.:)

[foghorn]

Also, as a slight digression, any unit in the UK with callsign Approach, Radar or Director wants your cleared level, aircraft type and what ATIS you've got on first contact, unless you're told to contact it "with callsign only".

[A Very Civil Pilot]

We were given AIC 96/2005 yellow 183. It states for subsequent frequency changes only give aircraft identification and level information:

In level flight but cleared to another level, give current and cleared levels; if not in level flight give cleared level only.

Subsequent means that you have already called in to departures and given passing and cleared levels to check mode c.

[galaxy flyer]

Thread drift warning

If a pillot is cleared, for example, to descend to cross LAM at FL 080. He elects to delay starting descent using FMS-based VNAV. Under radar control, does he need to report when he actually leaves his present level??

GF

FAA says yes, but I am interested in CAA/ICAO standards.

[Sleeping]

Galaxy, CAP 413 Chapter 3 says -

1.2.3.4 Pilots are expected to comply with ATC instructions as soon as they are issued. However, when a climb/descent is left to the discretion of the pilot, the words ‘when ready’ shall be used; in these circumstances the pilot will report ‘leaving’ his present level.

So I'd say the answer is yes ....... I think!

[Sleeping]

There is also some guidance on this subject from the CAA on their website here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG-NATS_RTDISCIP.PDF

slightly more readable than CAP 413 (but not much!).

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[galaxy flyer]

Sleeping:

Thanks very much, you are obviously NOT living up to your name. I read CAP 413 Chap 3 and missed the relavant sentence. Settles an argument alright!!

GF