Flybe to aquire BA Connect. Crew thread. (No Spotters)-(Part 2)

[Jetdriver]

This thread is approaching close to 1000 previous posts and can be researched Here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250813). To keep this topic manageable volume 2 can be continued on this thread.

[Smokie]

All gone quiet now.....Due thread move?

[Smokie]

This does not look too good for you guys now. I think that the wise have already pulled the Black & Yellow handle early.
http://www.nextgenerationairline.com/pdf/pensions_190107_ba.pdf
On a positive note, Easy are actively recruiting you guys to have a major dig at us. I think we will struggle severely this year to meet the commitments planned for the summer schedule. More so than in the previous nightmare years due to lack of crews and unrealistic planning /rostering and recruitment by other airlines elsewhere.

This is now becoming critical as we already have 146 crews trained up to fly the EMB195 but with the delays on 195 production I think we may have jumped the gun.
It will be interesting to see how many 195 trained crews go back on to the 146 until deliveries start again.
Word on the street is that the delays are significant.

[Thumperdown]

Smokie
How do you suggest that the link you have provided to the pension statement means the 'handle' is to be pulled? Certainly it is not good with regard to the pension but..............Rumour has it the deal is to be signed next week!

[Smokie]

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, Eject, Eject, Eject....

(the last "Eject" is an Echo.....echo......cho.....ho.....o ........)

[Bonzoboy]

Its getting close for all of you Flybe/Bacon guys. Good Luck.

I know I have asked this before on the previous thread but if there is anyone out there who has any idea what the recruitment situation is at present I would be so grateful for a response. I have previously been retired and I am not flying at the moment but I hope to be on the list for a DEC as soon as possible now that I have a new licence/medical.

For what it is worth, I have been through a merger/buyout before and the rumours and lack of info turn to fear. All will get sorted. It may take time but this is not the first time it has happened. Dooooont worry.

Comments on my 'prospects' welcome. Ta. :ok:

[brain fade]

Smokie

Glad to hear it. As a rasher, I view the prospect of working for Flybe with dread only.

Frankly, I'd rather they shut connect and paid us the redundancy money.
Flybe is a bit like going back to Loganair. Fun but ****.

Glad you're having fun tho.

When I pull into the car park for an early- Flybes pushin'

When I reach the car park after a late- Flybe's takin' off.

F*ck that!

btw. 5-2-5-2-5-2, 800 a year here,etc

[biddedout]

No one is afraid of hard work at Bacon, but they sure don’t want to return to the dark old days of BRAL and its very worst when every two sector early picked up another two sectors on the day, lates were changed to earlies, earlies were changed to lates at the last minute and with an Ops Director who believed that he owned us 24 hrs a day and he could do whatever he liked with us. It was similar in Logan, but at least it was a small enough operation for the Ops staff to return favours.

Flybe is moving into a different league, its main competitors in the Loco area might work people hard, but at least they provide roster stability. Not only that, BA are working their shorthaul pilots up to the limits, but again, with an extremely stable roster.

If as their attitude suggest, Flybe are to continue with their current daily fire-fighting and bullying into compliance approach to rostering, it is going to be a disaster. We have been there, it’s not clever and it is not sustainable. The Bacon scheduling agreement is constantly rubbished by managers (note; not by those who actually work with it and have an understanding of rostering) yet it did not cause the downfall of Bacon (Evans and his cronies saw to that that). :mad:

I am sure the Bacon reps are willing to concede areas of the agreement which may not fit the Flybe model, but this agreement has been tried and tested. It creates lifestyle stability and it works. That’s why until now, Bacon tended to retain crews, and it probably explains why despite coming from similar backgrounds (Manx/ Bral v Jersey), the current experience level in Bacon is probably three times that in Flybe. JF needs that experience (if he wants to keep his insurance bill down).

Finally, does anyone know whether the Flybe manager who has been calling Bacon pilots and threatening them into compliance been hauled over the coals yet? He damn well should be and if that’s an indication of how Flybe middle managers behave and conduct IR, then we are in for a rocky ride.:ugh: This most recent event has been the last straw for most at Bacon who are trying to decide whether to give it a go or to jump. If JF and his directors are wondering why there are very few Bacon pilots left, he needs to look on his side of the fence very close to home.

[unwiseowl]

lates were changed to earlies, earlies were changed to lates at the last minute and with an Ops Director who believed that he owned us 24 hrs a day and he could do whatever he liked with us.

Well any rashers deciding to come to Monarch will feel very much at home in that case!

[RAFAT]

Finally, does anyone know whether the Flybe manager who has been calling Bacon pilots and threatening them into compliance been hauled over the coals yet? He damn well should be and if that’s an indication of how Flybe middle managers behave and conduct IR, then we are in for a rocky ride.:ugh:
Would that be one of the BACE boys?

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Nope, he was from the other side of that fence but he was CitiExpress, another merger not made in heaven but we ALL gave that one a good go - same as we hope to give this one a good go as well

[oldflyboy]

Can anyone tell me what the situation is with BALPA over BACON takeover? Cabin Crew are being ballotted for acceptance, their TU reps seem to have moved Flybe somewhat, the T&C's are similar to those currently operated, though not as good?

[BluffOldSeaDog]

OldFlyBoy - lots of info on the BACon Balpa forum, you should have a look

[ciderman]

Heard on the grapevine that Titan need 2 F/o's STN based on the 146, type rated even though web site says they're not recruiting. Might be worth a call to their Ops.

[brain fade]

Cider

What are Titan going to do once Connect vanishes?

Seems to me half their work was subbing for us!

Maybe they'll sub for Flybe??:}

[AHA2218]

Cider

What are Titan going to do once Connect vanishes?

Seems to me half their work was subbing for us!

Maybe they'll sub for Flybe??:}

At £10,000 to charter and £600 a sector, nice little if you can get it :ok:
Maybe if we had a decent fleet, the airline would still be profitable :D

[JetFixer]

Don’t know whether BACON pilots have received ballot papers in the post yet? Asking you to vote on accepting or rejecting Flybe terms and conditions.

The ballot papers sent out to Engineering and Cabin Services are a disgrace, worthy of use in a third world dictatorship.

They have no box to cross when making your vote and wording and layout is ambiguous. I quote :

“Please place an X over the appropriate box below to indicate whether you are prepared to accept the new Flybe Engineering Terms contained in the enclosed document.”

Only there is NO box.

So if one puts a cross over the word NO, what could this mean?
YES? Precisely, so if it is not read carefully one easily risks voting the wrong way.
Got the picture?

An addressed envelope is provided. Of course NO STAMP is provided to ensure that the tight and apathetic do not return their papers.

Ballot papers are returned to BACON Towers HR and not to an independent body. Though now we have been assured that the count will be witnessed by the unions.

Seriously eroded T’s and C’s. A rigged ballot? If this is the best BACON and THE Nextgeneration airline can offer. What future do we have with these shysters?

Votes in by 31st Jan. A shame that the results and any of our concerns on this date will be overshadowed by the BA Cabin Crew industrial action

Good luck.

BACON Engineer.

[Flycatcher]

I gather that what is left of BACON management are getting concerned by the mass negativity regarding the ballot of (amongst others) the engineers and the cabin crew. Cabin crew managers at MAN today doing rounds of the crewroom saying there would probably have to be another ballot because "people don't understand the issues and are all voting NO". :) I haven't met one cabin crew or one engineer yet who has voted "yes".
Also pilots will only be balloted when BALPA is ready (and will definitely not be dictated to by the grand fromage).
I particularly liked the bit by Willie Walsh in Times today sprouting forth that of course all his regional services operated by BACON would be unaffected by the cabin crew strike next week. Ha - someone should point out to the press that he has already shafted and given away his BACON saviour.

[Essex Girl]

I voted NO even though its not a word i often use. Well i did once to young Carl - but he deserved it and the slapping. But why should i give my everything for the last 5 years then have it all taken away to fly some scabby airplanes and work harder than ever and have my life messed up again. :(
love Jane

[JetFixer]

If the deal goes through engineers will have to give up the following:
1 Loss of final salary pension
2 Loss of BA staff travel in retirement (10yrs service)
3 An increase in working week 40hrs from 37.5 (Flybe offer us pay differential of £532 for this while the extra hours actually equate to £2080)
4 A reduction in leave>1.3 days
5 Reduction in hourly rate therefore reducing OT rate
6 No payrise on basic only lump sum for X yrs not compounded
7 After 5 yrs service a bond will still apply
8 First aid pay will cease(£150)
9 Tooling allowance will cease
10 Loss of OT at double time(midnight to 6am)
11 Future redundancy will be statutory not x2
12 Relocation currently £8000 reduces to £5000
13 Loss of BA staff travel after 6 mths
14 Brymon non licensed staff will loose healthcare
15 Death in service from 3x salary to 2x
16 Flybe higher rate pension (10%) only applies to dual licensed Engineers

[Blackcap]

Hardly surprising then that people aren't rushing forward in droves to accept this deal.

Wake up Mr French or you will lose everything.

[Anotherflapoperator]

From what I can gather, not a lot of our CC will vote yes either. The Union rep is being absolutely fair, answering any questions as clearly as she can but reminding all that she cannot advise how to vote. Above board and honourable.

I hear management are doing the rounds pushing for a yes vote with threats and stuff elsewhere, but then again no management from either BA Connect or Flybe has made any attempt to visit us at all since November. CC managers have sort of said they would come over, but as always cancel at the last minute. I'm not sure Cathy even knows where the Island is.

They are not happy bunnies, and frankly neither are we. I reckon the general concensus coming out of what I hear is that they think calling Willie's bluff and taking the redundency is a viable option for a lot of them.

Oh dear,.....

[rhythm method]

Deal further delayed until mid-February now according to flybe website.

[GroundBunnie]

CC voted against Flybe offer 51%/49%

Engineers voted for Flybe offer 51%/49%

BALPA? Any News?

Rgds GroundBunnie

[arelix]

BALPA? Any News?
Nooo, they are taking this moment of calm to redesign the website/forum access, so it's inaccessible! BUT I CAN SEE IT NOW :-)

[Blackcap]

Brilliant timing! Especially as Intercom has now been turned off. So no method of communicating!
Who is in favour of a conspiracy theory?! :oh:

[oldflyboy]

:ugh: So BACON cabin crew have voted against, now what happens? I hear on the grape vine that only 51% of crew bothered to vote, so perhaps apathy rules m'lud? Also hear BALPA have accepted a deal???:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: !!

[thedude]

Looks like BALPA have decided that membership feedback from the company forum was a distraction. They will no doubt inform us of pertinent items on a need to know basis!:hmm:

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Well the company used to take Intercom down when it was convenient. Love to know who's bright idea it was to do some renovation on the site just when it was so critical to have it

[arelix]

Aplolgies have been made on the site,(finger trouble) and normal service will be resumed a.s.a.p.

[oldflyboy]

Joint statement from flybe/bacon/TGWU/AMICUS re 'failed' cabin crew ballot states " jointly all sides remain firmly committed to the completion of flybe's acquisition of BAConnect and are confident of a positive outcome"

So why bother to ballot if you were going to ignore the result?:=

[Blackcap]

I get the impression that Flybe management also intend to ignore the result of any pilots ballot.

More fool them.

[Noiffsorbuts]

It was ineviatble at some stage that FLYBE would go back to BA cap in hand to demand more money against the threat of pulling out. That seems to be the game now being played out by Strong. The blame being directed everywhere, Balpa, pension trustees, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all.

Truth is that bit off far more than could be chewed and the FLYBE team way way out of their depth and have pissed off those at BACON who would have been willing to give the company a go. Its all gone on too long and we like less and less what we hear.

Fair to say that most of us couldnt give a damn whether or not the deal goes ahead now and I personally have moved from being pro French and pro the deal to hoping that the whole thing falls over.

BA will then have to make us redundant and deal with us properly instead of chucking us to a bunch of Hillbillies who produce draft documentation containing clauses outlawed by legislation over twenty years ago!!!. (Nice one Mr Fromage!!!!)

Anyone who wants it has alternatives and it seems the biggest miscalculation of Mr French was that he was our only hope. At the moment hed be lucky to get the one third of us who have not already handed our notice in.

BTW 118 Pilots resigned in January. Fact.

[remoak]

Lucky for flybe.

[Noiffsorbuts]

That says it all really.

Third world conditions in a third world company (incidentaly with a very weak balance sheet for those that can read them)

[JobsaGoodun]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but shouldn't you be venting your frustrations at the company responsible for the mess, not at the one coming to the rescue?? :ugh:

If you'd rather not join Flybe then why not simply seek employment elsewhere. Don't start bitching at them, they aren't the ones responsible for the situation you find yourself in! :rolleyes:

[Noiffsorbuts]

Rescue:O :O :O

If you want to work for a third world employer............enjoy!

Funny how all of us at BACON seem to have several job offers on a plate from employers who are offering FAR BETTER terms.

Why do you guys in FLYBE enjoy such mediocrity and rubbish???

Cant get a better job anywhere else???? Why dont you apply..............you might surprise yourself......there are plenty out there.

[Thumperdown]

Noifsorbutts said
"Fair to say that most of us couldnt give a damn whether or not the deal goes ahead now"

Since when were you elected to give an opinion for 'most of us'.

Speak for yourself and if you don't like what you are offered, politely decline and go where suits you best. No need for insults or derogatory comments. You will probably find the grass is greener............etc
Regards
Thumper

[Sheikh Zabik]

Thumper,Noiffs is spot on.

The mood in our crewroom has totaly changed and the few remaining who were prepared to take their chances have had enough of all this............

There are good jobs aplenty without being insulted on pay and conditions.

[The Shop Floor]

The exodus of pilots at BACon (MAN and BHX especially) is becoming a stampede. It is accelerating at an exponential rate as nobody wants to be the one to switch the lights off.

We are recieving no signals from the FLYBe management encouraging us to stay with the ship - it seems that only those who are very close to retirement or those who see an opportunity to return to their home bases (SOU,BHD,IOM etc) are sticking it out.

If this is not addressed by those that can make a difference, the grand plan is bound to fail. Forget the Embraer 145s flying for another two years - there won't even be enough people to crew a quarter of the fleet by July.

[remoak]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but shouldn't you be venting your frustrations at the company responsible for the mess, not at the one coming to the rescue?? :ugh:

If you'd rather not join Flybe then why not simply seek employment elsewhere. Don't start bitching at them, they aren't the ones responsible for the situation you find yourself in! :rolleyes:PRECISELY.

Noiffs, if it is " Funny how all of us at BACON seem to have several job offers on a plate from employers who are offering FAR BETTER terms", why don't you take one of them and shut up?

The only reason I can see for your continued attacks is that you are unwilling or unable to do so. I can't think of any other reason for your increasingly bitter rants.

You clearly don't like flybe at all, and I'm sure that flybe neither wants nor needs people with your attitude, so why not take one of the numerous offers from airlines that are desperate to employ you?

And as for balance sheets, for a privately owned company, flybe is doing fine... :rolleyes:

[Noiffsorbuts]

I am just fine Remoak thank you with several options other than FLYBE.

Why dont I do as you would like and shut up?

Because this is an industry forum where we are free to express our views.

Granted freedom of speech is not something your management like..........since their draft documentation included the right to keep records of our sexual preferences and assess suitability for redundancy based on trade union membership and "cooperativeness".

With lunatics like that running the show, what hope is there for any of you?

Glad you think you are doing OK.

Actualy if it were not for the support of the Walker Trust and aircraft manufacturers FLYBE would fall over. The company is massively over borrowed.

[San Expiry]

To those of you who appear to be in the know - on both sides - and for the benefit of the many ppruners following this affair from the outside, what odds would you place on this deal going through? It seems to me that flyBe never thought this one through. It probably seemed 'a good idea' at the time and I'm sure BA said all the right things to make it appear as the deal of the decade. Mmmm?

[brain fade]

SAn x

No one's really in the know. Personally I'd give it 65:35 in favour of it going through.

Also, speaking personally, there are good and bad aspects to both outcomes.

One things for sure- the wheels will be coming off the BACON operation and soon.

Too many guys are voting with their feet.

[Blackcap]

I'd go the other way - 70:30 in favour of NOT happening. Or if it does happen, WW will have paid many more £'s to JF.
Either way there won't be too many pilots left.

[Thumperdown]

I'd go the other way - 90:10 in favour of IT happening. And if it does happen, WW will have to pay many more £'s to JF.
Either way there won't be too many pilots left.

[Prinz Eugen]

Anyone's guess whichever way it might go! Would anyone hazard a guess as to the state of play on the "square bond". Does JF intend to keep it for Bacon pilots regardless, or is he prepared to modify this particularily obnoxious edict for all his potentially rare and valuable Bacon "recruits" if there are still any out there!

[BluffOldSeaDog]

What can he bond us on? Dash rating is common and the 145s are off as well, so retraining due to loss of aircraft type precludes a bond

[Thumperdown]

BOS
Can u not sleep?
04:29 :)

[bermudatriangle]

This "done deal" is dragging on for much longer than initially proposed.seems to me that there are far too many problems emerging to prevent the smooth integration of these 2 totally different operations.as always it needs someone to make a decision and let all concerned know what the future holds,otherwise those that can leave for pastures new will do so.the crewing problems at Bacon will soon become unmanageable and the operation will go downhill rapidly.for what it's worth,the longer this remains unresolved,the less likely i feel,the merger will take place.what state will bacon be in when this senario is enacted,only time will tell.

[keep em flying]

As a Connect Engineer at MAN i say the quicker the better that FlyMayBe pull, out, just like you drivers we feel totally let down and exploited, let BA do the right thing and make us redundant, then if "I" choose to join FlyMayBe at least it will be "MY" choice, (but i won't be joining!) and i won't have been sold down the river, unbelievably some engineering staff voted yes for the horendous T + C's being forced upon us, let me go with some money and some dignity!!!

[Snigs]

I heard a Rumour the other day that some of the E145's were going off to be repainted in Flybe colours, if true they must be keeping them short to medium term (perhaps to cover for the delay of the E195)

Question is; will there be any 145 pilots around to fly them? Reading this I fear the worst for that idea!!

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Thump - had just got up, now I'm off to bed, night night :}

[Thumperdown]

Snigs
Depends on the definition of short to medium term. Some of the 145's are due to be around until 2009.

[skianyn vannin]

But remember that in FlyBacon tomorrow is short term, next week is medium term and next month is long term.

[tifosi]

Skianyn; I was always led to believe that tomorrow never comes..... Hang on a sec...... there's someone at the door. It must be the four horsemen of the appocalypse!........The end is nigh....7,6,5,4,......
If this deal goes through, it may not be the end of the world as we know it, but you could certainly see it from here!

[brain fade]

I have heard it from the proverbial horses mouth at Flybe, that the last Barbie won't leave til 2010. A date that can only slip one way.

Also there are a lot of flights uncovered this week. Are we recruiting on the 145- if not why not?

[tifosi]

If Bacon is recruiting, the reason for the shortfall in new joiners could be that Rats do not join sinking ships.

[Thumperdown]

There are plenty of wannabe rats out there who would love to join the 'sinking ship'

[osbo]

Any BACON peeps managed to get on the BACON BALPA forum yet?

The front page has been re-instated, but no forum yet (for me at least).

The vacuum seems to be getting more absolute by the day - no Intercom and now this.........

BOSD - how about resurrecting the PPRUNE forum?

Cheers,

osbo

[Halfwit]

the flybe deal can be looked at from a culinary point of view

where does bacon come from...... a dead or dying pig........ apt
pigs aso give you pork which as we know goes off easily.... apt
off pork can give you the S***...................................... apt

to conclude the stumbling block in the whole recipy is that some dodgey pork has managed to give all those involved a dose of the runs which only a bright orange pill will cure

[skianyn vannin]

No luck with the BALPA forum. Just as discussions were become more heated with regard to the RJ issue. Amazing isn't it, how existing type rated BACON pilots can be rejected in favour of 200 hr wundekinde from Jerez and Oxford.

Of course the cynical among us will point out that they cost half as much as existing BACON jet F/o's. In addition they are so grateful for a job, they'll think that the astronaut and his brother in law are the greatest people who ever lived, rather than the brain dead clusterf**ks we know them to be!

Still its good to see that BALPA are on case. NOT!

[oldflyboy]

Re the whole Cityflyer stuff, I heard today that there are concerns that only 4 exBAR/BACON ops folk have joined the new outfit's ops team, and 3 of those are crew controllers with no ops managing experience? Also no-one from Nav Services is on board and some key IT project and scheduling folk have also declined the 10 pieces of silver that the handsome one and his brother in law have offered.

But I'm sure the CAA are happy this is a valid operation................?

[GWYN]

OLDFLYBOY

I did try and raise awareness of that very issue a while ago. See my post on the previous thread, reproduced below:

Mike Mercury

Chances of BACON #2 succeeding? Zero to nil I'd say. We know all about the Flight Ops people - and seriously the best of luck to NG, but even he admits what he's up against. Have you considered the ground staff in your calculations? Have you noticed how the announcement of the appointments keeps being put off? Could it possibly be that they are desperate and noone wants to work with them any more? Never has the expression 'Once bitten, twice shy,' been more apposite. If that is your choice one can really only wish you the best of luck. I am rather afraid that your option #2 is the most likely: in a couple of years your colleagues at LHR simply say, 'Thanks for keeping the slots warm, boys, see ya later!'


Noone seemed interested at the time, but maybe there is a growing awareness that airlines need more bodies than just those at the pointy end!

Just one probable correction to what you posted: I don't believe that the 10 pieces of silver have been offered - or even one!

What's more the pressure exerted on certain ex-BAR OPS people to be seconded to MAN has, I believe been resisted. Not to worry, they'll have an eminent Technical Services Manager. Flight plans? Pah! Who needs 'em!

[oldflyboy]

Gwynn,

Agree with your post which I had overlooked. I believe its a case of people with no 'people skills' attempting to bulldose this through. Its like " you don't have jobs so you should be grateful for the opportunity"

Talk about not winning hearts and minds! Apparantly the words "you have chosen the losing side" have been said to a manager who elected not to join! Hows that for arrogance!

And you are right, perhaps if they had dipped into the money pot they may have had a better response from the ops folk, rather than assuming they would be happy with crumbs from the table.

The whole thing is so sad, with a little thought and understanding, not to mention a little thing called 'communication' things may have been different.

Sadder is the fact that WW failed to see what a shower they all were in failing to make BAR/Citiexpress/Bacon a success and gave the same guys another toy to break.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Nevertheless lets all hope some common sense will prevail and that the thing may stagger into life. Wonder what Barbara Cassani is doing now, perhaps Willie should give her a call!!

[GroundBunnie]

As stated by WW " domestic and regional services do not form part of our core business"

Strange then that BA mainline are going to operate LGWNQY once a day from 26Mar.....

I guess ASW won't be happy, especially as BA handle them at LGW

Rgds GB :confused:

[Thumperdown]

BACON BALPA website seems to be up & running again

[brain fade]

Re Newquay

A little birdie told me, and this really is a rumour, that Plymouth airfield is to redeveloped for housing and Southwest is to close, partly due PLH shutting.

Prolly BS tho'.;)

[Longchop]

brain fade Re Newquay

A little birdie told me, and this really is a rumour, that Plymouth airfield is to redeveloped for housing and Southwest is to close, partly due PLH shutting.

Prolly BS tho'.



Thats bollox.......you fool......and its a crap rumour too!!!

The only airline closing round here is BACON! Live with it!........Move on!:*

[brain fade]

Hey Longchop

Don't shoot the messenger!

This is Pprune is it not?:rolleyes:

[GWYN]

Oldflyboy

Thanks for taking that post in the spirit in which it was meant. I didn't really expect you to either read or memorise all the 93 (or so) pages of the previous thread!

The one word which you use really sums it up: 'Arrogance.' The arrogance is absolutely unbelievable, but probably understandable in that it has been built up to its current level by being surrounded by 'Yes men' (people? persons?) in their ivory tower.

As you say, surely if WW is astute as claimed, why give them another train set?

[towser]

Maybe they've been given another train set because they achieved exactly what they were mean't to!

[oldflyboy]

OFT has today ruled acquisition of BAConnect by Flybe to be valid so can go ahead according to 'Airmail' sent to BACON staff by David Evans today.:D

However STILL no word according to my pilot colleagues at BACON today about deal for them.:=

[Ghengis Cant]

One itty bitty teensy weensy little question...............

Who is going to fly Jimbos plane set now that he has pissed off all the Rashers who are employable elswhere?

I know..........how about starting a BIG RECRUITMENT campaign?!!!!!

"COME AND JOIN FLYBE THE CR%P PAY AND CONDITIONS AIRLINE":} :} :}

[Hudson Bay]

Jim doesn't care about any of his staff. He never has and never will.

I believe he has a great business plan that could work. The problem is he has a record of of treating his staff with total disrespect and even admits that he doesn't have the time of day for pilots. (Probably because he failed his PPL).

Second problem is the Q400. It has propellers. Propellers are for boats. Period. Ask a jet jockey if he would fly a prop and I bet we all know the answer. Not even for more money. Most 737 skippers earn in excess of £90,000. How about if Big Jim offered £100,000 for a Q400? I certainly wouldn't. So £40,000 for a Prop aircraft. I would rather drive trains. Their faster and you get paid more

[tallaonehotel]

From Hudson bay...
Second problem is the Q400. It has propellers. Propellers are for boats. Period. Ask a jet jockey if he would fly a prop and I bet we all know the answer. Not even for more money. Most 737 skippers earn in excess of £90,000. How about if Big Jim offered £100,000 for a Q400? I certainly wouldn't. So £40,000 for a Prop aircraft. I would rather drive trains. Their faster and you get paid more


What did you learn to fly in then?... a BOAT???
Stop making a clown of yourself with these statements.

[Capt. Horrendous]

Actually, many of us don't care what we fly so long as the pay is the same (which it will be) and we get more time at home (which we will). Those who think flying a prop is any less worthy than flying a jet are obviously dimensionally challenged below the belt.

Re todays cancellations - that was due to snow, not crew shortages ;) .

[Ghengis Cant]

Perfectly reasonable post Hudson.

The fact is no experienced Rasher would choose to work for FLYBE unless he has some personal base/lifestyle issue.

So apart from the few who choose it for said reason, what you will have left are the Orange and other rejects.........

Its already a bottom fishing airline operating uncomfortable and unappealing equipment............and now employing those by and large that nobody else wants.

I cant wait to see the spin thrown out in the fortchoming recruiting drive.

You cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I dont think Jim is half as clever as some of you make out. If he was, then why is he relying on ex BACON managers whose skills :E we are very aware of? He has set himself totaly unrealistic objectives and timescales to achieve them

[AlphaCharlie]

Ghengis ... have I missed something?

BACon operate BAe146/RJ, Dash 8 and Emb145
Flybe BAe146, Dash 8 and Emb195

How on earth are Flybe aircraft any more uncomfortable to the BACon aircraft? Emb145 you have to be 5 foot to be able to stand in the 'off-centre' aisle, the 146 is the same as ours, and the dash 8 is the same as ours! Flybe seat pitch is more generous than both Easy and Ryanair, and if you haven't seen the inside of the 195, you really should next time its on the ground where you are - its an amazingly comfortable and well thought out cabin for passengers.

So wind your neck in and stop spouting the brown stuff that comes out the wrong end of a bull! All this propellers are for boats nonsense - do you guys not read Flight mag etc? Not seen P&W and RR plans for 'exposed fan' engines? Will that make those aircraft third class? I don't think so. Every dash pilot in the world apologises to you for flying a highly fuel-efficient aircraft, we are sorry and not worthy! And we apologise that we do not have the seniority or desire to move onto a SUPER jet like the 145 or 146.

BTW have you heard that dash co-pilots are only second officers not first officers? :ugh:

[Blackcap]

Yes Bacon fly Dash. All 7 of them. With reasonably fast career progression onto one of the (41 jets in total) jet fleets (very few Dash FO's do more than eighteen months, max two years on props before getting a jet position). And even the Dash skippers have a career expectation of getting a jet command in a reasonable time frame.
What Flybe offers is (by start of 2010, if things go to plan) the prospect of 54 props and 15 jets (if the latter ever get delivered?) and virtually zero career expectation of moving from prop to jet. Largely dead mans shoes - some of us have seen this situation before when BRAL/Manx had lots of props and just a few jets.
Flybe also offers the expectation of not having stable rosters (I have talked to some of the recent rashers that came to Flybe from SOU - they cannot make any lifestyle plans and they are already well hacked off by the endless roster disruption). Bacon has up to now offered good lifestyle protection with our scheduling agreement (and no, that is not the reason for Bacon losing money).
What Ghengis and Hudson Bay say above is largely correct - the only people who will come across are those who have thus far failed to find alternative employment, else have personal base issues. And as Hudson said money is not the solution - lifestyle is worth far more - and the hard evidence at present is that JF has failed to realise this.

PS Shagtastic - I think you have misinterpreted what Ghengis said. I don't think he is talking about existing Flybe pilots - more the fact that (excepting those with personal basing issues) only those Bacon pilots who have been unable to find alternative employment will be left to join Flybe. Perhaps the lesser able, or perhaps the lesser able to get through interviews (there is a difference!).

[The Shop Floor]

Big Willie met with BALPA today and has confirmed that as the OFT have given the nod the deal will now be signed.

Meanwhile, outside, there's a robin sitting on the fence and the kids next door have built a snowman. A very festive scene. Lets hope that when Mr French opens his belated christmas present, he's not too disappointed to find that the parcel is now only half full.

[Ghengis Cant]

Thanks BC.

Exactly what I meant. Did not intend to cast aspersions on existing FYBEs.

Id say that the CAA will want to take a long hard look at resulting experience/competency levels.

[Sheikh Zabik]

So how much more loot did Willie have to bung into the hamper to pursuade French to go ahead??

Thirty million?

Fifty million??

[Stan Woolley]

Regarding experience levels remaining at Bacon, I have a very good friend there who is trying hard to ignore the apparent buffoonery all around him while he gets on with his life.

With lots of quality wide body command time and training experience he is not too concerned about running to join the low cost ratrace.

So Ghengis, there's at least one you won't have to worry about! :rolleyes:

[The Little Prince]

I think the Fat Lady is about to sing!
For what it's worth, a very reliable source tells me the the Fromage has been severely b0llocked regarding his communication skills (mind you, that's a Crab Ginger Beer for you) with prospective Slices of Bacon, and the resulting exodus from the frying pan into the fire. Best of luck is all I can say, it will be interesting to be reading coments on here in six and twelve months; I genuinely regret the amount of quasi bad mouthing which has gone on here, I'm sure it's done no good for anyone, but has enabled Jim to prise even more moolah away from Willie. There's professionalism and skill on all sides, surely otherwise people would not be retained in employment - LPCs would be failed, never mind line checks! The trouble is that insecurity of any description breeds disunity, and then we suffer in our small collectives, and look round for someone to blame. Aviation's a funny old world isn't it. I still look forward to flying with more of my old mates, some of whom are already on board, and seem to be enjoying it. After all, a big shiny jet was not what we all wanted when we decided to become regional pilots in the first place, so the original objective is still on the table with Flybe. Jim is only doing his job, and even the Fromage to the best of his ability (?) as are we all. Here's to some definitive good news soon!:)

[biddedout]

Nothing wrong with the Q400 on the right routes. It’s load carrying ability and short strip performance sounds impressive, but I have my doubts about it’s suitability on long routes. JF was very quick off the blocks to call the EMB 145 a 90’s aeroplane. The difference is though it can climb well above the 25,000ft limited cruising altitude of the Q400 and although it is a little tricky on running costs due to overheads v pax seats, if it is run on the higher yield major city routes, it can be a winner. Its fuel consumption is similar to the 400 and on longer routes, possibly less. BMI regional don’t appear to think of it as a 90’s machine. More on the way and an endless supply of no cost fully trained and experienced rashers to fly them. :ok:

The 400 would be ideal on routes into near Europe and domestic, but it is certainly not ideal for Vienna, Madrid or Milans. Who needs to sit in the middle of Cbs and ice for two hours when the 145 or any other jet will be cruising well above in smooth air. (Sorry, any other jet apart from the 146).

Like many others who chose the regional lifestyle, I don’t mind going back to a prop if it’s on sensible routes, but I am certainly not going to hang around if JF tries to use it on European “long-haul”. There are alternatives and you don’t need to spill your coffee.

As for the fromgage, let him get on and manage something if that's what he thinks is for him, but he has to learn that he is not god and cannot do ten jobs at once. FO to Fleet Manager, new type converson TRE TRI TRof everything under the sun, head of recruiting, chief negotiator.... in two years, - not really on. := But then that was the old Bral way, managers had to boost their pay with evey add on they could think of. Shame they didn't just pay them properly and train them for one or two roles at a time.

[Dash-7 lover]

Approx figs.
13 sectors due tech
18 sectors due crew shortages
35 sectors due weather

oh...

approx 23 sectors uncovered 09/02 due crew shortages.....wait until March!!!

[bermudatriangle]

I can't believe some of you are debating the pros and cons of jets vs turboprobs and the operating ceiling of the Q400.the merger of Bacon and Flybe will create a disfunctional airline with an embittered workforce and an incompatible fleet which will mirror all the failings of BAconnect which has lead to this dreadfull situation we now have, being repeated once again.this deal is bad for Flybe and as for Bacon,Willie threatens to close it down if the merger doesn't go through.i pity the resulting monster that will be created and don't hold out much hope for it's long term future.if the merger does take place,which seems more and more likely as time moves on,i can only suggest to those that can move to pastures new,don't hang about too long.we are approaching another very sad day in the history of British aviation.whoever would have thought it would come to this?

[remoak]

I see that a well-known flight crew recruitment company is fishing for 146/RJ crews... now I wonder who that could be for... ;);)

[Hudson Bay]

Just been on the news that the bird flu strain H5N1 may have entered the food chain. I know Bernard Mathews is a close friend of the Walker family and supplies Turkeys to Flybe staff including Aircrew as a Christmas gift each year. It has been reported that the majority of consumers will be unaffected if the Turkeys have been cooked properly, however a risk exists and consumers are being warned to be vigilant. Questions have to be asked if there is a connection between the high sickness level in Flybe and Bernard Mathews Turkeys.

[JAR]

Yet more "Gobbledegook" from Hudson.

[Chesty Morgan]

But he is oh so funny isn't he...err wait...no he isn't. Fool, stick to flying in very straight lines not looking out of the window.

P.S. I've never had a Turkey.

[Mervyn's Clowns]

Hudson, you are correct about the high levels of sickness amongst the Flybe crews. Unfortunately it is the poisioning due to faulty engine and APU seals allowing oil to enter the airconditioning system that seems to be the problem.
Constant headaches, dizziness, frequent Flu/cold like symptoms to name but a few.:oh:

[remoak]

The turkey theory is far funnier though.

Never mind Hudson, your wit is too rapier-like for many of your constituents. I liked it though. The turkey is so emblematic of the problems facing flybe...

[mad_bob]

Only those in Exeter got Turkeys for Christmas. The rest of us had to make do with the Turkey who came from Bacon to take over the training dept. Spends his time changing Bacon paperwork to flybe headers. Oh and telling us just how crap we really are. :{

[The Little Prince]

Oh come on now Bob, he's not that bad - he can do the job properly! He's in a different league to the Fromage - at least he's a pilot!:}

[aspaceman]

Bermuda said

"the merger of Bacon and Flybe will create a disfunctional airline with an embittered workforce and an incompatible fleet which will mirror all the failings of BAconnect which has lead to this dreadfull situation we now have, being repeated once again.this deal is bad for Flybe and as for Bacon,Willie threatens to close it down if the merger doesn't go through."

Disagree

The workforce will just get on with it - as usual. The only failings of BACON were the twats at the top - Evans, Witts, Eadon, Hutchings & Co and the link with BA. Rumour has it that French could not afford the cost of not completeing the deal and that Willie will use BACON to give him a bloody nose if he tries to wriggle!

[Noiffsorbuts]

Its not a rumour Mr Spaceman, Willie W is directly quoted from a meeting with our reps two days ago.

He made it clear that if FLYBE try to wriggle out of the deal he will be out for blood and, most interestingly, would use BACON aggressively to deal that bloody nose.......!!! His view is that legally FLYBE are on the hook and have got to complete the deal.

He also said that if the deal fell over BA would protect all its slots and routes and ,contrary to what FLYBE think, they would not be able to pick them up for nought.

That I find a very odd statement because

1 It implies that BA would hang on to the company if French pulls out

2. How the hell does he think BA could suddenly succeed in pulling BACON out of the mire

I am confused and have more than a sense that this will end in tears all round.

As for FLYBE I am more and more convinced that this deal will be a disaster and is just too big for them. They dont have the skills or the capital to make it work.

(PS Id say their new advertising campaign for Q400 pilots smacks of desperation!)

[San Expiry]

Just how would Walsh protect the Bacon routes if the reports of the rapidly dwindling pilot workforce and a probably nonexistant 'backroom' are true? I would suggest that Walsh needs this deal more than flybe. Walsh needs to offload an albatross while flybe, although the collapse might mean a setback to expansion by a couple of years, can carry on regardless. Sounds as if it is entering the brinkmanship phase. What's the advice always given? If it's a bad deal then walk away. flybe will survive but Bacon is beyond economical repair; come back and pick over the wreck in 6 months time.

[Madeofmoney]

Turkey is fitter, leaner and better for you than BACon;)

[Mike Mercury]

Turkey is artificially fattened using water and chemicals. Flavour is enhanced via artificial flavourings, and coloured using poisonous artificial colouring. Bacon is as lean as it gets, a bit streaky, and at the moment, very poorly packaged!

[Maxclimb]

I will be joining Flybe in a couple of weeks, a Direct Entry Command on the Q400. I have been reading this thread with great interest and amusement, at times. I would very much like to here from current Q400 Captains and /or Training Captains. For what it's worth i am very happy and positive about this new path in my career and I believe the BA Connect merger will be very good for Flybe.

[aspaceman]

"I would suggest that Walsh needs this deal more than flybe"

See noifsorbuts post above

French in for a bloody nose!!

[bermudatriangle]

I will be delighted to see this deal collapse.It was doomed from its conception.I still cannot believe that so called industry professionals could ever see it being a sucess.frightening really to witness the leadership of these two companies,methinks my pet iguana could do just as well.Jim french has done a good job so far and has high expectations for Flybe,they can be realised,but not by absorbing Baconnect.Steady expansion,right aircraft,profitable routes,he won't go far wrong.As for Bacon,if BA put the money where it's needed,address the cost base,rationalise the routes and motivate the staff,they too can operate as a profitable outfit.as stated many times on here before,a clearout from the top is long overdue !

[oldflyboy]

Been told today possible signing of deal is 14th? Another St Valentine's Day Massacre!

'Roses are Red My Love, Violets are Blue, Jim's on his way you guys, Beware of the Screw' ! :uhoh:

[Blackcap]

Bacon has been slaughtered for no reason (well actually there is a reason - get BA out of the regions) - to add it to Flybe is no good for any of us.
I heard that Andrew (Stroppy) Strong is turning up at MAN on Tuesday (chaperoned by weasel Simon Witts) - so is Strong going to be Strong and appear at other venues? - or just one of the more militant bases? (Not aware of any other base visits yet - please correct me). Maybe he will have to leave early with an urgent train to catch (just like at the CC meeting at EXT?).
I'm not working that day - just might take a drive and go and challenge him over a number of pertinent issues - like Scheduling, Pensions, Turboprops, Dash sitting in Canada waiting for crews, WW refusing staff travel to rashers(not Flybe's issue but will certainly impact on them by even more resignations within 6 months), lifestyle, t/ps are better than jets for long European runs (!) etc etc (just talk to the pax Mr Stroppy and you will get a very different answer re the latter).
So just where did Mr Strong come from? Is he a Walker inheritee? Or just another teaboy made good (we have/had lots of those at Bacon)?
Edited to say that following a little more research -Strong used to be Flybe Engineering Director (as recent as 2004). What is it about these engineering manager types? Yet another of these folk who can speak the speak but can't do the job, and earn zero respect. Wittless was the same - Engineering manager KLM UK, then parachuted in as Head of Engineering BRAL, suddenly crawls up TDLF's arxe and next thing you know appears as Tim's replacement over and above Hutch. And talking of useless engineers at flybe there is always le grande fromage with his x,000 hours but all as an engineer and none of it actually pole-ing...... But of course we all respected him as a manager? (actually not even in Brymon days when he was a grovelling FO)

[oldflyboy]

FYI Blackcap, the Boys are Back in Town in Brum on Wednesday, the feather dusters are out making everything pretty! Mind you with 2 Engineers visiting, perhaps they should just smear everything with engine oil, after all, dirty stuff for dirty deeds...

.........and as for our BACON boy, WITLESS does sum him up. I mean if he had any (wits I mean), Willie would surely have given him the Cityflyer job rather than him having to be Jim's lapdog during 'transition'! :*

[Blackcap]

Well - BRUM - another stroppy base for Mr Stroppy to sort out.

Witless must be crapping himself trying to get a back door into Waterside. But (as far as I'm aware) he isn't related to Hutch or Phelan - so stands no chance.

[oldflyboy]

Blackcap,

Pertinant view about Simon Le Witt trying to get back to Waterside, wonder if Hutch or the Pretty Boy have any more Sisters he could woo??:D

[Blackcap]

...brothers would probably do as well - sure he isn't that fussy :suspect: . Keep it in the family whatever! :yuk:

[RAFAT]

Blackcap, And talking of useless engineers at flybe there is always le grande fromage with his x,000 hours but all as an engineer and none of it actually pole-ing...... But of course we all respected him as a manager? (actually not even in Brymon days when he was a grovelling FO)

So Le Fromage came to us to be a Fleet Manager from doing what at Brymon/BACE exactly?

No wonder one of my colleagues (ex-Brymon) walked out of the door as soon as Le Fromage arrived!

[marlowe]

It would be so much easier if JF & WW at a meeting just dropped there trousers and compared gonads!! cos thats all they are doing at the moment seeing who has the biggest set of nads with all this macho posturing.I for one am sick to death with this whole sorry saga ,when will they realise that the workforce are really beyond caring what happpens, we just want some action! JF just buy it will you, or WW just close it down but for god sake get something happening! Because very soon you wont have a company to buy or sell.

[X767]

For Hudson Bay and the like, aeroplanes fly using powerplants, be they propellers, turbo-propellers, turbo-jets or rockets. Having just retired after 45 years of flying, starting on the Jet Provost and then progressing through the Gnat, Hunter and Jaguar in the RAF - then following with the Boeing 737, 757 and 767 in the civil world, I came to age 60 with a proud history of aviation, enjoyed to the full. I was then given the opportunity to continue that love affair, with a post flying the ATP and then the Dash 8. I have to say that those last few years, flying propeller driven aircraft, were some of the happiest and most rewarding of my airborne career. Enjoy the flying while you can, whether it is propeller driven, jet powered or a glider !!

[Chesty Morgan]

I'm currently a Q400 Captain with Flybe. What can I say. I really enjoy the job. Good routes, good variety, great crew, interesting and challenging aeroplane and you're pretty much left to your own devices during your working day. Granted you don't get paid as much as others (it aint far off now) but I earn more than enough to enjoy my life the way I want to live it. The new scheduling agreement, due to be unvailed soon, should be a big improvement on the old one.

The best flying job I've had.

X767, thankyou and well said. I'm glad there are pilots like you out there to temper the 'Jets are best' philosophy!

[Thumperdown]

X767
Hi there - still keeping your eye on us! Hope you are well, you are still missed.

Chesty - I will be pleased to join you - good post!

[SouBE]

Steepclimb - forgive a CC member replying to your post, but I am due to start training with flyBe soon; my first CC job. I've also been very disillusioned by some of the posts and have to say yours was a VERY welcome addition.

In my very limited experience, I also applied to BMI, BA, Virgin and Astreus. However, the whole process including assesment day with flyBe was head and shoulders over the others - they came across as a really professional outfit which is why Ive chosen to join them over a couple of others I had offers from.

Looking forward to it :D

[Torycanyon]

Stepclimb,

"others on my course have come from backgrounds of flying spanning over 30 years and they are equally impressed with the standards at flybe."

Does that include the DOUBLE ones ?:ugh:

[bermudatriangle]

More cancellations Monday 12 Feb due crew shortage......no way to run an airline.The passengers deserve better than this.About time those in charge took responsibility and sorted this mess out,assuming they are capable of course ??

[GroundBunnie]

3 canx at BRS so far today, and another battering from some very angry pax. Same as Sat and Sun, it was like GroundBunnie day all over again.

Pax comment of the day so far "I'll be a lot happier when you lot are finally gone"

Any mention of a reduced sched anywhere?

Rgds GB

[cheesycol]

Anyone know if our rosters are coming out today?

[Thumperdown]

No Embraer rosters at checkout this evening
Regards
Thumper

[sarahw123]

I have read pprune for a while now and this is the first time i felt i needed to post anything. I work for flybe and have to say that i enjoy it. When JF is on my flights he tends to sit at the back and fall asleep but is very pleasant and we know that he led us through very bad times a few years ago.Mind you he does expect us to work hard. AS is not stroppy, but quite nice really maybe a bit young, but certainly not stupid and he has a decent team working for him. the flt ops director is an improvement on the last one, and the CSD is very good and well thought of. he like JF started life at the airport and hasnt forgotten. you do wonder how some of the others got their jobs though the CCO seems to know what hes doing.

[bermudatriangle]

Heard today approx 120 flight deck crew at Bacon working their notice.all will be gone by April.If true,that is a devastating blow to Flybe in its attempts to swell flight crew numbers.apparently many would go sooner but other airlines cannot schedule type ratings in such short timescale.can anyone confirm this number of approx 120 crew leaving ?

[skianyn vannin]

Yes its true. Flights are being cancelled on a daily basis due to crew shortages. The number of resignations is accelerating exponentially at the moment.

In a couple of months there won't be anything like enough people left to run the operation.

[Tandemrotor]

Can't absolutely confirm it, but that number sounds spot on. I have never known anything like it! As far as 'going sooner' is concerned, I believe it is more to do with the consequences for bacon of losing a third of it's pilots, rather than the ability of any other employer to take them early! Bacon HAS to make everyone fulfill their contractual obligations or the flying program would collapse overnight! In fact, it already is!

I haven't spoken to a single pilot who is happily committed to their future in either flybe, or BACF. There will be further large numbers of pilots leaving all three companies in the coming weeks, and months.

Whatever flybe get out of this deal, I can confidently predict, it won't be many pilots!

[oldflyboy]

When asked specifically at a BACON cabin services managment team meeting in Manchester last month about rumours of pilots leaving the business, Simon Witts replied " there are some pilots working notice but only a few more than normal and this won't affect the operation or sale"!!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

So, either pilots on this site are posting misleading rumours, or La Witt and others have their heads in the sand! :ugh:

[Hudson Bay]

The hiring of all of Bacon pilots is a tactical thing as well. Look at what is happening. bmi have taken all the TRE's off the Q400 and the orange lot are taking all the highly experienced skippers. All that will be left are low hour CPL's.

The only good thing for the low hour chaps is that they will be assured of the right seat of the E195 to build as many hours as quickly as possible.

Down side is this non reducing bond. It's an advert that says Flybe is so bad that they have to shackle you to your seat. Oh and don't forget 4 months notice and £24 grand for flying a highly advanced aircraft! I used to earn more cutting grass.

JF needs to smell the coffee.

[skianyn vannin]

Well oldflyboy

were not posting misleading rumours., jst the FACTS. I'm afraid Simon F***witt simply doesn't have a clue what's going on, just like the rest of BACON management.

They are in a state of total denial of the fact that their once proud little fiefdom has now come to an end. Time to wake up guys and realise its over.

Once FlyBe announced that the final salary pension scheme would close, the one sweetener which caused many BACON pilots to stay with the company was removed. Lets face it, this was the only reason why people endured years of crap under NB, Tim de la Flop, Hutchings and the other clown Phelan.

FACT, how come at virtually every easyJet assessment day, half of the people there are from BACON?

FACT, easyJet say they expect to employ a third of the BACON workforce by the end of the year.

FACT, BACON pilots wanting to transfer to the EDI RJ operation have been rejected in favour of 200 hour wundekinde off the streets. The reason? Quite simply so many pilots are leaving BACON for pastures greener, there will be no one left to fly the 145/146/dash 8.

Its not just F/O's leaving either but many TRE/TRI's across all the fleets.

I'm sorry to say that BACON is now a shadow of its former self. A third of flight crew to leave shortly, engineers resigning, no-one left in Nav services etc etc. Another couple of months of these losses and it will be unable to function. FACT.

[Tandemrotor]

oldflyboy

I haven't followed this thread very closely, and I don't know which side of the fence you are. However I can absolutely assure you that there are very large numbers of pilots already working their notice at bacon, and almost certainly many more to follow.

Flybe are going to inherit a real mess.

I think it could take a while to recover!

[biddedout]

Much of the bad feeling expressed on this site came about through the initial approaches from Flybe and the Cheesy- Wotsit roadshow and their “we are taking you over, you have to be thankful you have jobs, and you are not going to fly our shiny jets” sh1t stirring approach:yuk: . Two months have passed and having met some of the more senior Flybe managers now, I am reasonably convinced that they are starting to realise that there have to be changes in the way they do things and they have to take the work-force with them. Whether it was approaches made through Willie Walsh, or the general realisation that they have to get on with it now if they have half a chance of making it work I don’t know, but it would appear that there has been a sudden change in attitude. They do seem to be listening now even if it has taken a while. Hopefully, the two ex Bacon chumps have been put back in their boxes. ;)

One thing that Flybe does seem to have going for it is a very aggressive marketing strategy and a unlike BA, a good understanding of the regional business. Remember, David Evans used to put Fybe’s advertising down claiming that it was not the sort of thing that BA did and Bacon customers preferred the more up-market BA style trendy advertisements.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :rolleyes:

Flybe appear to realise just how many fantastic opportunities were squandered by BA/ Bacon and can see a huge number of potential routes and base opportunities. They will move the 195’s to where they are needed and contrary to some of the original posts on here, they will not be keeping them down south for the exclusive use of the Exeter senior flying club.;) A number of other contractual issues appear to have been resolved and quite rightly, there has been a significant move away from the “get to the bottom, you are new and are on year zero” approach which prevailed earlier. Either they have started listening to the staff, or have been told to, but it certainly seems that they now have the chance to hit the ground running if they can just keep up this charm offensive and back it with action rather than the lies and waffle that we have been fed by the so called “Bacon “Leadership” Team for the last 5 years.:mad:


The next few months will be telling, but having met their senior people (above le fromage) I am certainly more inclined to give it a go.


The scheduling agreement will be the deciding factor. Address the disuption / lyfestyle issues and we could be on to a winner. :ok:

[oldflyboy]

Tandemrotor & Skyayn Vannin,

It's not a question of sides, it's simply wanting to clarify what is happening. Personally I think the numbers of crew leaving BACON are very worrying for all concerned, my post was not meant to imply that posters here were telling porkies, rather that the little piglets seem to be emerging from the management side.

I have been in the regions for a long time and have chosen to tie my colours to the future with BACON/FLYBE, but totally respect others who have left or propose to do so. The very sad thing is how badly the whole thing has been managed, not least the appalling way others who do not have a choice of a job in FlyBe are being treated, as my other posts have indicated.i.e. customer services, scheduling,ramp services,operations etc.

I frankly look forward to working with another company that (hopefully or am I being naive?) is not always on the back foot because the folk at the top could not manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

Whatever the maths, BA do not want an unprofitable business. The debate in the future surely must be around why so much incompetance was allowed to continue for so many years. It is criminal that BA can take 4 airlines(BA Regional, BRAL, Brymon & Manx) and turn these profitable, albeit not hugely so, businesses around to make major losses in so short a time.

Has anyone attended the Strong/Witts roadshow in Manch today and asked the question about Pilot numbers? If so, what was the response?

[Captain Correlli]

The most criminal thing of all is the BA culture that actually REWARDED the likes of De La Flop!!!:ugh: It was apparent to his successors that achievement and success, profitability and efficiency were not important, only brown-nosing, posturing, and continually writing OMANs, FOBS, FABS, and most of all -FIBS!!!
To have then stuffed management appointments with the likes of Phelan, Hutchings, Deacon, Devereux etc was remarkable, albeit not as remarkable as the appointment of Witts and Cheese - the latter was no more than a lapdog, and the former the last huge mistake in a long line coming from Rob Hearn in his days as Terry's lapdog.
Believe me, I wish you all well, but I have to say that EZY has been a breath of fresh air, not to mention a seriously worthwhile type rating and salary! As someone mentioned earlier, it was only ever the pension that made us all hang around - in many respects I wish they'd junked it five years ago, that would be around another 100K in my pocket by now!

[Banzai Eagle]

5 resigned yesterday according to very lovely Rosterer I know at BHX. Spare a thought for them!

[Little Toad]

The total number of BACON pilots working their notice was 138 as of yesterday (12th Feb). Today two captains and two FOs handed in their notice at one base alone!

I only know of about 5 pilots at my base who are definitely planning to stay and some of those are beginning to look elsewhere. Do Flybe know that this is happening? Have the management at BACON told them? It's a complete farce!

[brain fade]

According to Mr S.Witts there are only 25 pilots leaving.

As heard by me from him.

So either he's:

1. poorly informed.
2. a fibber.

or,
3. A lot of posters on here are either 1 or 2 above.:ooh:

[expedite08]

Keep up the resignations boys!!

More opportunities for the newbies like me to get a first job!!

Cheers!! :ok:

[Tandemrotor]

expedite08

Truth is you're right. Flybe is perfect for somebody starting on the ladder. Trouble is once you get some jet experience under your belt, and especially if you ever work to a scheduling agreement, you'll probably start thinking along the same lines as the people currently voting with their feet.

Enjoy.

[GroundBunnie]

Whhhoooooooossssssshhhhhhhhh

Not the sound of an ERJ aquaplaning at BRS, but the noise a 14Feb decision deadline makes as it slips by. 28Feb now big signing day, allegedly

[bermudatriangle]

Jim French must be crazy if he signs any time for this deal !!

[skianyn vannin]

Only 25 pilots leaving! Poor Mr F. Witt must mean only 25 pilots from the 146 fleet alone! Or perhaps he's been listening to the crap spouted by Deverall and Mini me. Or maybe it was the other buffoon recently returned to the fold, The Monkey.

[Pizzaro]

Looks like the meltdown has started. Just check out ba.com and look at all the cancellations from BHX in the coming days. Any news regarding th proposed deal ?

Regards P.

[brain fade]

Just to add a little balance.

I've volunteered to work tomorrow(15th). Am a Barbie pilot.

Told to expect a day off as ALL flights covered-pilot wise.

They do have a chunk of sectors uncovered due lack of hosties tho.

[Anodyne]

Herd mentality is now setting in - even those whos' first instinct was to stay are now joining the stampeed for fear of being left behind. One of the engineers came up with a great quote: "I dont think Mr French realises what he's getting, his airline in a box is turning into......A box!"

[Island Jockey]

Ah Mr Switts........ he must be having a hard time.............with nobody to blame for things going wrong now he is in charge of BACON. ( But it will be some poor soul).

He has done an excellent job of getting to the top, a master plan in politics.

All his former colleagues BRAL / Manx and long suffering managers must be so happy for him.

(Who is the monkey?)

[bad bear]

I'm not sure if my numbers are correct , but wouldn't it take around 10 instructors and 3 simulators 3 months to train 120 new pilots ?

[Hudson Bay]

Pizzaro is right. Look at BA's website. I can't believe the amount of flight cancellations by Connect. The melt down has begun. Time to jump before you sink chaps. This takeover is never going to happen. French must be out of his mind. Good luck to everyone.

[skysod]

It's now a "chain reaction" people are leaving because so many people are leaving!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:

[Island Jockey]

Your forcast of events is spooky........................

re the good guys from Brymon was that the ones that dispatched without clean headset wipes:)

.Not long ago a BACON (ex BRymon PLH skipper) refused to despatch from BHX until he was furnished with clean headset wipes...

[oldflyboy]

Bacon Slicer,

What a sad and malevolent rant. Never got into BA then I presume, otherwise why so bitter?

Bet you are a joy to fly with!

My old Mum used to say, " If you can't say something nice, don't say anything"

Good Advice which I pass on gratis.

This is a desperate and difficult time for all in both Flybe and BAConnect, folk need support from colleagues, not vitriol. :=

[cheesycol]

To take the time to write such a post with so much vitriol, one-upmanship and just plain anger in it's tone defines an individual with some serious issues. Maybe anger management classes, or some sort of counselling could be of benefit.

I sincerely hope that bacon slicer is not employed by flybe or bacon or that I ever have the misfortune to fly with him or her.

[Mike Mercury]

....................and yet.............if you extract the fact from the emotion, then old Bacon Slicer has been absolutely right. Not that it helps anyone or anything. Pork Scratchings eh, PMSL!!!! He's right too, more people than this thread indicates will remain with Flybit, sheer inertia always wins out. I anticipate many months of whinging from smoked bits of BACON as they come to terms with the latest debacle. I wonder if the crew room arguments will be any different to the Loganair/Manx set-tos. I think it's just the way Regional Aviation goes, there's not enough money to keep more than one or two players going for any length of time, so all the same faces just appear again and again - and remember, scum and froth always float to the top!
One eery thought on those lines is that Jim's lot have apparently kept on some interesting figures in management. For instance, I understand the new 146 Fleet Manager is to be a certain Murph, is that who was referred to earlier as "The Monkey"? Then there is "The Cheese" - maybe a good engineer, but an 'interesting' pilot, and a 'people manager' of variable qualities?????? Don't forget MiniMe and Devious Deverall - they are still around too. Wait for the announcement that Wittless is to become a senior manager too.
Mind you, at least PH etc have been dispensed with.:}

We live in interesting times!:O

[Thumperdown]

Latest date for signing now 26 Feb. I think we should probably just go back to the original date of 22nd Dec.....07. :)

[Torycanyon]

Flybe 146 fleet manager ( BH???) on the way out!

I am surprised:eek:

Who has he upset then?:(

[Hirsutesme]

He isnt. Doesnt anyone ever wait for some hard facts? I've followed this thread since its inception, having a relative working for one of the two companies involved, and it really has been a mixture of soap opera, paranoia, irresponsibility, rumour and invention parading as fact. My sympathies are with the guys who just want to continue flying, get paid, and who can do without all the fear and stress caused by some of the postings on this thread.
Good luck to all BA Connect guys who get another job, whether with flybe or elsewhere. Now is the time to support each other, not rip into all and sundry!

[Pin Head]

apart from ezy, where is everyone going destined?

[Shoo shoo]

Someone wanted facts. Here's one.

Flybe have been trawling the agencies, DESPERATE for pilots. Claim they'll have to take A/C out of service if they can't get more pilots.

At the moment agencies have no pilots looking.

[Blackcap]

Another fact - nice picture :rolleyes: of Mr Cheese in Flyer, claiming he/Flybe needs 120 pilots per year (half of them as direct entry command).

Wonder where he's going to find them?

[remoak]

Shoo shoo is correct, my inbox has been filling with emails from agencies wanting to know if I'm available. Quite a few phone calls too.

They won't find any Q400 people, maybe a few 146 pilots but even they are very thin on the ground these days - all moved on to 737's I imagine.

Could be a fun gig for six months or so... the crew room banter alone would be worth the trip! All those rashers protesting long and loud at how unfairly treated they are (well the ones that come, anyway - ezy rejects and lifestylers). All the flybe folk who have been disadvantaged (if that ever happens) moaning about their fate. See you there, noiffs!

[Thumperdown]

There won't be too many complaints Remoak - we will be rejoicing in our new found freedom - and you with your new scheduling agreement. Looks like win-win to me.

28th Feb the latest date now

[remoak]

Hmmm I want some of that Thumperdown Kool-aid... :O

[Captain Correlli]

Well I'm glad I'm not part of it. :bored: I do most sincerely hope that it all works out for all concerned, who are staying for whatever reason. I hope the more inflamed posts die out, I doubt they serve much purpose really, and I also doubt whether those in management at whom the insults are aimed actually change their views, if anything I suppose all we achieve is hardening their opinions and increasing their dislike and distrust of the pilot community generally. However they really don't show much leadership do they?:p

I predict that Cheese will not last long before being exposed for what he is, and also that the remaining Sliced Bacon management will not be retained in post after their fleets are disposed of. With regard to BACON RASHER Mk 3, up in EDI, again, it has my most profound best wishes for success. I'm not sure right now who has ended up running it, but at the end of the day if sufficient investment is provided from Waterworld, it will flourish and be profitable - it all depends on what the BA accountants want to show. To my mind, the big question is what Willie's REAL strategy is; is he just keeping the slots warm, or does he intend it to have a genuine role. If the latter, then it will need to become more than an 8 or 10 aircraft operation to be equitable. The trouble I would have would be believing him and his minions after the years of lies, misdirection, and disingenuous hypocrisy which have been the hallmark of BA ever since they became involved with us. At the end of the day, you all have to make your decision and then hope you're right, it's no good projecting your worry, negative thoughts and concerns onto Prune or anywhere else as a means of sounding off - it just will not achieve anything except further polarisation of the workforce, which in turn will enable the Jim and Willie show to divide and rule!

Good luck!

[Grand yahoo]

The starting runners of BA Citiflyers were David Evans as CEO to be replaced by Peter Simpson ( Ex GM Finance - Bacon). P Hutchings as flight Ops to be replaced by C Phelan, Rod Wicox GM Grd Ops( ex Head of Cabin Services - Bacon), P Gruppo - Finance, IM HR & Admin ( Ex procurement BACON) and,
C McNaly - Chief Engineer ex BACON Eng)

So with lots of experience at the sharp end of Regional Aviation will these runners be there at the off?

How BACON is coping without them is anyones guess.

.....

[Pizzaro]

I'll just glad to be away from BA.

Regards P.

[Tandemrotor]

On BACF in EDI, and "keeping the slots warm" situation. If BA announce orders for A318, then the writing will be on the wall!

Otherwise it's "Happy Days!"

[NickBarnes]

i'll second that post Stepclimb, i totally agree

[4468]

maybe they arent getting as many staff as they might have wanted

Why do you think that is?

[remoak]

flybe have a solid customer base in the regions and a highly defendable product.

Well if you are going to quote directly from the "flybereallyisok.com" website, at least change the words around a bit and avoid accountant-babble!

What you don't see, is that margins are incredibly thin, and yield management is everything (as flybe only recently realised, it seems; whilst Easyjet were managing their yield on a minute-by-minute basis, flybe were doing it on a daily basis up until a few years ago). It doesn't take much to go from triumph to disaster.

However flybe have adapted very well to the LCC model on the commercial side. Ops and Crewing are apparently still disaster areas, but then they always have been - under-resourced for many years now. That side of the business is going to be a major challenge in the days ahead. I imagine the rashers will become well acquainted with the insides of various hotels, despite what they might think about "scheduling agreements". Roster stability is a distant dream, and has been for years.

Have to say that I really rate flybe, though. They have done very well in a very short time. Jim French has demonstrated that an ex- baggage handler can outwit the BA management without trying very hard, and he remains an approachable, honest and genuinely concerned manager (inside the constraints of commercial reality of course). I would go back there in a flash if I needed a new job. There might be one or two muppets in the company, but overall they are a solid bunch. Far better than the BACON management appear to be.

Anyway... back to the pleasant smell of bacon sizzling nicely on the barbie... :}

[biddedout]

Well, Remoak, between the Bacon Barbie jokes, for once, you almost make some valid points. I think those of us rashers who are left can see that the Flybe senior “Leadership Team,” commercial and IT are streets ahead of what BA imposed on us and the dross that clung on from within.

It is the operational side of things which are likely to let the new company down. As you say, Easy and Ryan fine tune things on the ramp by the minute and one only has to watch a Baby Formula One turn-round team in action to see how the Loco model should work. Flybe may be slightly better organised at the coalface, but in Baconland, we have suffered for year with having BA handling forced on us. In some of our more remote contracted out destinations, we do still get the full works flexible competent turn-round team meeting us and 15 -20 minute turn-rounds are achievable. In BA land however, we still regularly wait 10 minutes for chocks, 20 minutes for a GPU etc. Parked on a remote stand 1.5 miles from the crewroom? forget the on time departure, you will be lucky if you are only 30 mins late. Need transport? Don’t even think about getting in the “handling agent’s” minibus, that’s reserved for driving the mainline shuttle crews 200m to their machines.

It’s a shame to knock the BA staff, because there are some extremely competent, flexible and proactive despatchers, however, they too are let down and frustrated by the BA machine and the complete lack of management input on the front line unless there is a cappuchino bar within 20 m and its a week day between 10am and 3pm.

Interesting to read the article by le fromage in Flyer where he suggests that if you want a weekend off or need to book a day to plan personal activity, then Flybe is not for you. Strange that, since it doesn’t seem to be a problem in all the other Locos or even mainline companies. I don’t think le fromage has had this problem himself for quite some time. Every weekend guaranteed to be clear, golf on Saturday morning, all weddings and events assured and time off for “personal admin” at any time during the working week.


PS

Give up on the hotel jibes. Most rashers have come from wild west regional backgrounds and have probably clocked up more sleepless hours in flea pits than the combined Flybe workforce. Things are rightly a lot more serious these days, if companies want to get twenty five to thirty hours blocks time out of crews in five days, they do have to face up to having to provide the right support and they have to take their duty of care responsibilities seriously. If there is a noise problem or whatever with a hotel, it is not acceptable. Both the company and the operating Captain would be liable if complaints had been made and they were not acted on, particularly in the czase of a fatigue related incident. Feel free to continue to offer to sleep in the middle of the road, but you will be on your own and not cuddling up with a rasher.:=

[Megaton]

Give up on the hotel jibes.
How about giving up on the digs at Mainline too. Twenty mins at Heathrow for stand guidance, half an hour for a bus to take you home. And what are you talking about:Don’t even think about getting in the “handling agent’s” minibus, that’s reserved for driving the mainline shuttle crews 200m to their machines. I've never been driven anywhere in the UK by a agents bus except Man.

[biddedout]

OK, sorry, badly put, it was meant to be a dig at the fact that under mainline control, there isn't a manager in sight to sort any front line problems out. I am sure you are well aware of this. We did our best to shed some of the dead wood managment wasters, but they just seem to end up back at LHR in promoted positions. :ugh: :ugh:

I realise that the bussing thing is a bigt issue for you at mainline too, but it's incredibly frustrating to see BA transport parked outside our crewroom doing nothing with a driver in situ and yet we have to wait thirty minutes for extrnal transport to arrive. The sad thing is that for no good reason yet another flight with a BA flight number departs thirty mintes late.

We have been reporting this sort of nonsense for five years now, but nothing ever gets done about it. I know its the same or worse at LHR, but hey, T5 will be the saviour:rolleyes: You have to realise that we are the ones who have been beaten with the make a profit or we will sell or close you for some time now. It's hardly surprising that we vent our frustration.

Fact, we used to have J41's, they were difficult to make money with, but useful for pionering new routes. Before BA bought us BRAL were able to force the going rate out of BA for handling. The day BA bought us, we had to pay the internal BA rate (almost double) and the J41 became instantly unprofitable. It had to go. So from then on, there was little hope, we have been strung along with lies ever since. :yuk:

[remoak]

Well, Biddedout, as it happens I was actually cooking up some bacon on the barbie when I wrote that... 25C and a light breeze from the NW where I am...

Anyway - on the subject of HOTAC, you have no idea what you are on about with regard to flybe. There is a process in flybe to ensure suitable hotels are provided, after some real dodgy places were being used about five years ago. When I left, it was a LOT better and there were no crap hotels in use. It may have changed now of course, but I doubt it. Of course the Rougemont in EXT was a bit of an exception...

Some of us spent more time in HOTAC than we spent at home (some of us, considerably more). It is, and has been, a real problem for flybe (rostering, that is).

I just love the way that you BACON guys assume that you will somehow have some mystical ability to specify your own hotels, or rosters, or whatever. You really do believe that your existing Scheduling Agreement is just going to transfer directly to flybe in toto, don't you?

Good luck with that... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[biddedout]

No, I don't think "we" do. We just expect a reasonable compromise as is the case with any sensible negotiation. I uderstand that Flybe pilots and their representatives have been pressing for significant improvements in sheduling for a year or so. It seems to me that a blend of what you have now and what we have is a sensible way to proceed.
Other Locos seem to be developing sheduling patterns which create stability and the ability to plan a home life around a roster with little no no fuss. If as wew are being led to believe Flybe managent are despeately trying to maintain the ability to "own" its crews 24 hrs a day, then they may be missing the point. Many things may be changed, but endless last minute changes from earlies to lates and lates to earlies is not acceptable in any 21st century airline.

[remoak]

I think that you misunderstand your position in these "negotiations", any vague power you might have had is disappearing with every resignation. I realise that you have to believe that you have some power over your destiny, but you really don't have much at all.

Don't get me wrong, I think a decent Scheduling Agreement is a wonderful idea, but I also know how little success consecutive CC's have had in getting one. I'm not sure why you think your CC, that has virtually no bargaining position, is going to change things (but good luck to them).

The reason that flybe has never had the roster stability that the other LoCos have had, is partly the mix of aircraft, and partly the destinations they fly to. Oh, and also the crappy rostering software and inexperienced Crewing department. It will have to change, but it will take big bits of money to do it (always an obstacle to change).

[biddedout]

I don't think it should be about power games. It should be about achieving stability and efficiency. Flybe seems to be missing the point if they see it as a battle to be won. the winners will be the other companies who understand these things. lets hope they get this sorted for the benefit of all.

[remoak]

I do agree with you.

I can remember repeating over and over again, at various meetings, the mantra about the benefits of a happy, motivated workforce. The management always agreed - in principle - but at the time, we were always in either financial or operational difficulties, and the management simply could not afford to give away ANY flexibility without risking the flying programme... so the crews always ended up being disadvantaged.

I still have a number of email exchanges on various crewing and operational matters, and I can assure you that managers were sympathetic, but hamstrung.

Things changed a lot when JF took over, and I found him to be a very reasonable and pro-active guy. He went out of his way to sort out some of the issues we had. The internal Open Channel forum also had some notable successes (although most crews probably never knew that).

I can also vouch for the fact that on several occasions, the company spent significant amounts of money to alleviate crewing problems. Again, this may not have been apparent to many crews.

I suppose my point is that with most of the flybe managers I knew, the will to do the right thing by the crews was there, but it was difficult to carry through in the environment that they were in (remember, the last few years have seem extraordinary changes in the company). I suspect that the mindset of "yes, but not now" may still be quite entrenched. I can't speak for the new guys who arrived after I left, of course. Still trying to figure out what this Cheese guy is all about.

For that reason, I suspect that the "negotiations" may not go quite the way you hope. Not because flybe see it as a "battle", but for the old reason of maintaining maximum operational flexibility and minimum cost.

BTW, one of the stormier meetings in flybe occurred just after JF took over... and was presented with the monthly HOTAC spend. I understand that the language used was abrupt and to the point!

[4468]

BTW, one of the stormier meetings in flybe occurred just after JF took over... and was presented with the monthly HOTAC spend. I understand that the language used was abrupt and to the point!

NEWSFLASH

Hotels cost money, and if you put lots of people in lots of hotels, it will cost lots of money!

I guess that might be a little hard for a baggage handler to get his head round!

Remoak. Flybe sounds great. Why did you leave?

[bermudatriangle]

just about sums up why these outfits lurch from one crisis to another...appalling management.makes me wonder how they keep going for so long !

[remoak]

NEWSFLASH

Hotels cost money, and if you put lots of people in lots of hotels, it will cost lots of money!

I guess that might be a little hard for a baggage handler to get his head round!

Yeah well it's a lot cheaper than employing the number of crews you would need to eliminate HOTAC, especially when you consider the reduced rate an airline gets HOTAC for.

Of course the airline could have just informed a whole bunch of crews that, with immediate effect, they were based in some place hundreds of miles from home, but they chose not to do that.

There are other issues around changing aircraft types, extremely rapid expansion, and a ton of new routes. Add to this an antiquated crewing system...

The problem is a little more complex that you apparently realise.

I left because, good as flybe might be for a regional carrier, there are other opportunities out there. I would happily go back if I ever needed to, though.

[JobsaGoodun]

just about sums up why these outfits lurch from one crisis to another...appalling management.makes me wonder how they keep going for so long
Which are you referring too....BACon or Flybe?
Add to this an antiquated crewing system...
In what way antiquated? Flybe used to use RM which is still being used in a number of airlines, most ironically by BACon itself.
Flybe now use AIMS along with 50+ other airlines, including Easyjet, and more recently BMI.
I'm not sure you would ever class either as antiquated?

[remoak]

Flybe used to use RM

That's correct, but it was an old iteration... version 4? Can't remember. Good to hear they upgraded!

[Spartacan]

Large, two page, ad in Flight today for Flybe pilots. Lots of bases but, oddly, no base given for the Isle of Man.

Are they trialling the Isle of Man as a commercially viable route?

Curious for two reasons; we need better transport off the Island and I would apply if I could get a local base.

Comments please . . .

[208]

flybe are said to be commited to maintain the LGW/MAN & BHX routes and intoduce new routes if viable ......or so they say but there basing plan is 146 & 145 for next year.

[Sheikh Zabik]

So the desperate advertising campaign for experienced pilots has started.........Two full pages in Flight and all sorts of exagerated representations about "the package".......... Dream on Jimbo!....... Having blown it with experienced employable Rashers you aint going to bottom fish the experience levels you need until you start treating your pilots properly.
Oh, another thing Jimbo. Did you know that Balpa are ballotting their Rasher pilots before adopting one single clause of the various agreements you have been trying to stick down their throats these past three months?? Apparently you werent exactly told that??
Id say youve got yourself a little bit of a problem if you go ahead with this one, because the word is that the boys and girls dont go a bundle on the new "agreements". So what with TUPE etc Id say you are going to be a bit stuck once youve lumbered yourself with this lot......
This has turned into a fiasco of the first water and I am soooooo glad I have my release ticket! ( Apart from your totaly crap terms I just dont fancy working my butt off as an unpaid training Captain with your never ending supply of two hundred hour wunderkids)

[Mandarin]

Jeez - don't start. These people are fine when things go to plan, also why should I worry - they know it all....however once it goes off the rails we have big issues. I could tell you about the go around that nearly didn't happen, the level busts that nearly happened, the (multiple) long, fast, deep landings on the runway edge, the missed or mis-read RT...that's all in the last week. I come back from what should be an easy day out and find myself knackered with these kids. Go learn somewhere else....else pay me a heap more as a trainer.

[Sheikh Zabik]

Stepclimb.A bit off topic..but Ill reply.
Not so long ago very many if not most copilots came to their first commercial job after many hundreds of hours instructing or doing taxi work.
They might not know very much about flying an airliner but basic airmanship and, above all, valuable experience had been gained in the air.
Believe you me, it is far FAR more stressful to fly with a newby who is brilliant at flying a simulator and knowing his SOPs than someone who has had some experience and already has a sound awareness.
fifty percent of FLYBEs pilots have only been there two years or less and that trend is set to accelerate wit Cheesy's latest charm offensives on the training schools.. It is for that reason I made the comment I did.

Glad to be out of it.

[Anotherflapoperator]

...They probably aren't offering the IOM as a base yet because unlike virtually all other BACOn bases, nobody has offered their resignation there. The IOM base is nearly all crewed with ex-MANX crew, all happy and determined to remain there if possible. Add to that we also have a number of folk who are marooned in MAN or BHX as a result of the removal of the DH3 that was put there to replace the THREE ATPs we had and it adds up the the fact that there's a queue to get back.

I've been there 9 years, and with 6,000hrs and a long way up the ladder on the seniority list I'm still nowhere near the LHS seat there yet. One up from the bottom actually! If the plans to put a 145 there, then replace it with one or two DH4's comes to fruition, then I reckon they'll need 10-12 F/Os over the next two years for the Island, with possible commands coming for those who join first in about three years when the bulk of the current 146 skippers retire.

If you really want to join Flybe for the Island, either hang on or get a MAN base for now. Best of luck.

[theWings]

So what exactly are experienced F/Os? A frozen ATPL and recent flying, they say. But with time on the Legacy (ERJ135) gained in GA, I'm hardly going to want to go join the "vast majority" on the Q400, no matter how "jet-like" its performance (but NOT pay), am I!

Where do I fit into this picture?:suspect:

[excrab]

It's getting off the topic, but I've flown with a fair few 200 hr F/Os at Flybe and don't remember any of them with an "I am wonderful and know it all" attitude. Often the worst offenders for that are those with a bit of GA time who thingk that they are either a) to good to be flying a turbo prop or b) deserving of a command because they have an ATPL and 1600 hrs. I'll fly with the 200 hr guys any time, at least they have enthusiasm.

[theWings]

Ooh, that's an unfortunate misunderstanding of my post, excrab!

I simply don't think I'm too good for a turboprop and I can't be deserving of command until someone else thinks I am, can I?!

It's only that having jet experience, and Embraer experience at that, the logical step (for me, at least) is to go to the 195, no? That's just the path I'm on right now and it's not clear to me that this recruitment drive will support that.

I was once a 200hr FO and I was very enthusiastic. And I still am! Brilliant!

I guess we are a bit off topic, so you gonna let me have the last word, then?! ;)

[remoak]

There is no way, on this planet at least, that you are going to end up going to the 195. It has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with seniority, which of course has it's own logic. Flybe is far more desperate for Q400 crews than 195 crews. Even if it was offered, I suspect a lot of Q400 F/Os would have something to say.

Where do you fit in this picture? Joining the mass exodus to Big Orange, I suspect, if you simply must fly a jet!

[Spartacan]

Anotherflapoperator, Thanks for your post. I note the 'thirty five years behind the times' location' so I understand the lack of resignations! It's the Island I want not Flybe so I will hang on.

Hope all goes well for your family with the takeover.

Regards, S.

[Oldsalt]

the level busts that nearly happened, the (multiple) long, fast, deep landings on the runway edge, the missed or mis-read RT
Hang on, that remiinds me of a couple of 10,000hr+ Captains I fly with? Who's training who? With a bit of guidance those low hour F.O.'s can be streaks ahead of some of the old farts.....

[4468]

Anybody else noticed the apparent contradiction in attitudes here?

Along the lines of 'the Q400 is absolutely fantastic, easily as good as any jet. Why do you want to fly jets'

on the one hand, and...

'Don't think you're getting anywhere near one of our TTJs (Toy Town Jets) they're reserved exclusively for those that have done our time!'

One way or another, this is going to be a mess!

[excrab]

The wings - sorry, I hadn't seen your post when I typed that. It wasn't meant as a dig at anyone in particular.

4468 - No contadiction at all. The sad thing is that a jet F/O or Captain at Flybe still earns considerably more than their counterpart on the Q400. That is the main reason for the attitude you are seeing. At the moment there are plenty of jobs out there even for Q400 pilots if they want to move on. Most of those trying to change fleet are possibly planning to stay because of being happy based where they are, but would like to earn more. If you take into consideration that it takes between 6 - 8 years of seniority to get a LHS on a jet at Flybe you'll see why they are not happy about the idea of direct entry pilots going straight into the embraer.

[BMed Boy]

They are desperate for pilots, hence the two page ad in Flight, so if I say I'll only join if you give me DEC jet then with my experience that's what I'll get or I won't join. Simple as that.

[BusterHot]

BMB

You won't get a DEC Jet. Period! The courses are booked up till the end of the year and there are dozens of very senior Captains waiting for next years allocation.

Q400 - yes. And they'll ask you if you can bring a friend too.

[Hudson Bay]

British Airways regional subsidiary BA Connect have advised the flights shown below to/from Birmingham have been cancelled due to operational reasons.

15 February 2007
BA4171/4170 - To and from Aberdeen - cancelled
BA1754/5 - To and from Hanover- cancelled
BA1810/1 - To and from Paris(CDG) - cancelled

16 February 2007
BA1741/2 - To and from Stuttgart - cancelled
BA4153/4 - To and from Geneva - cancelled
BA1735/1764 - To and from Glasgow - cancelled

17 February 2007
BA7711/2 - To and from Lyon - cancelled
BA4193/4 - To and from Berlin (Tegel) - cancelled

19 February 2007
BA7715 - From Birmingham to Lyon-passengers re-accommodated onto BA7711
BA7716 - From Lyon to Birmingham -cancelled with no alternative.

20 February 2007
BA1741 - From Birmingham to Stuttgart- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1743
BA1742 - From Stuttgart to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1740

22 February 2007
BA1772 - From Birmingham to Hamburg- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1774
BA1773 - From Hamburg to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1775

BA4153 - From Birmingham to Geneva- cancelled with no alternative
BA4154 - From Geneva to Birmingham - cancelled with no alternative

BA1762 - From Birmingham to Frankfurt- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1766
BA1763 - From Frankfurt to Birmingham - passengers re-accommodated onto BA1767

24 February 2007
BA1754 - Birmingham to Hanover- cancelled with no alternative
BA1755 - Hanover to Birmingham- cancelled with no alternative

BA1833 - Birmingham to Glasgow- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1757
BA1738 - Glasgow to Birmingham- passengers re-accommodated onto BA1736

[4Ohm]

this sort of stuff should be made illegal :
http://www.flybe.com/vacancies/pilots_benefits.htm
Point 2 - Published 6 weeks in advance, don't believe it - you'll be lucky to get it by the 20th of the month for the following month, and in any case it won't work out that way. Multiple changes along the way - just to help you "plan your Life".
stable roster and flybe are 2 words that just don't go together.
Do the management of flybe not realise, that with the exception of newbees, most pilots talk to each another and know what it's really like to work for them. Maybe they should put all this effort into making it a better company to work for and they wouldn't be having the pilot retention problems that they've got.

[BAe146s make me cry]

Not just pilot retention - Engineers too -

My notice goes in next shift

Now I'm happy

BAE146???:{ :{

[RAFAT]

The recent ads on the website and in Flight contain 'spin' in the extreme. Whilst I admit that £50k for a Direct Entry Captain (DHC8 of course) is not bad, £82k is an absolute lie. Looking at the pay scales that figure would be achievable only by a 146/195 Captain with 17 years seniority!

I agree with 40hm, that sort of advertising shouldn't be allowed. However, we're an intelligent bunch, and it only takes a couple of clicks on the mouse to uncover the real Flybe package. :=

[Anotherflapoperator]

Spartacan, no probs. Just remember, with the Orange or Blue, you can get several days off if you want to domicile on the Island, just like the long haul boys do. Flybe will be recruiting soon, and when they do, watch how Euromanx and Eastern bite if you dangle a CV their way;)

Best of luck in your search!

M.

[EGCC4284]

Got a call today asking if I was still interested in a job with one of the company's with reference this thread. I applied over 12 months ago. I said sorry as I have accepted the second jet job to be offered to me in the last 7 weeks. I have 440 hours total time. Nearly 40 years old.

I mentioned that I could recommend a few friends of mine who would love a chance of an interview but was told that they are only looking at those recommended by Integrated schools at the moment.

Shame really as they are missing out on some really good guys. I myself did not go to an integrated school and have been offered 2 jet jobs, what does this tell you.

Give the job to someone who is up to their eyes in debt and will leave to bigger and better things ASAP to try and pay it off or give a modular guy a chance of an interview that may also be a bit older and in less debt. Do they want a stable work force or not.

I also have a friend who is 36 years old and has only 250 hours total. He was modular like myself and started his first turboprop job 3 weeks ago.

There are jobs out there to be had. I know soooooo many friends that have got their first job in 2006, many of which were straight onto jets.

Also got told this week that easyJet are looking for around 150 pilots right now just to stay still without their expansion plans.

With reference Euromanx and Eastern, I think they will find that less and less guys will bother sending them CV's as the job market gets better and better.

I never bothered sending a CV to Eastern. Aim at the top of the list and work your way down, not the other way around.

Best wishes to all at BA Connect and Flybe. Hope 2007 ends better than it starts. I know loads of pilots at BA Connect who have been for interviews elsewhere. Shame really. I think this is due to being kept in the dark. If BA Connect and Flybe management had had open meetings with everyone earlier, then pilots would not of started looking elsewhere.

[Professor Fog]

I can say that I am happy to be leaving BACON in a few weeks time and get away from all the chaos.

We had some senior bods from Flybe in the crewroom the other day and it made for an interesting morning. I dont think they had realised how strong feelings are running and how many people are off. Feelings are running deep, more due to the people feeling sold down the river by BA after several years of upset than any anomosity to Flybe.

Although it does help that with things feeling like they were getting sorted out with the final goodbye to BAR last year, a move to Flybe feels like going back several years to unstable rostering and having no life. The no life thing you can get at many other arlines, the difference being you'll get renumerated for it !

Plus the more you look at how its been done it looks like it has been planned for some considerable time. A very senior couple of plonkers, er, pilots from BACON were at a large flight school last year sorting out a deal for picking up a stack of baby pilots. Now, true to form BACON have just "sourced" 60 baby pilots from said flight school recently, first of four courses of 15 pilots started a few weeks ago.

I can truely say I'm glad to leaving this sorry mess behind, BACON - Citiexpress- Brymon-BRAL-Manx-Lognair this company has really been through it in the last few years .I think people are worn down by it and are not willing to put up with another integration and turmoil that this brings.

Goodluck to my mates who are staying - I hope it works out for you who want to stay and for those still looking , I hope that tunnel appears...........


me, I'm worn out and glad to be off.......................

[HZ123]

Good luck to you and those that take FlyBe. No doubt they will operate the FIFO system for the transferrees 'Fit In or F--- Off. After time it will settle.

[GBNPY]

We at Flybe are interested in what BAcon boys and girls have to say about several ex Bacon employees running the flybe side now.

The most recent is our head of training B W, he seems to be as popular as a fart in a space suit.

The others have been here a while, the turbo prop manager I C and our ops director.

[fly-dj]

The others have been here a while, the turbo prop manager I C and our ops director.
Think you will find that our ops director was ex BA mainline and never had anything to do with BACON.

[Professor Fog]

IC and BW were seen in our crewroom a month or two ago, and the way they spoke to the crews is seen as a significant factor in alot of people reaching for the exit door.

To paraphrase, they told us - to be grateful to still have a job (which is a reasonable thing to say, although I think it was the tone in which this was said) and that we will all be on the Q400 within a year as the 145's will be going very shortly. Oh, and don't even think you'll get a look in as far as remaining on jets goes.

Well this dosen't appear to be happening as quickly as mentioned, but alot of folk have reached for the door as they've been told "you won't stay on a jet". These two guys have got a lot to answer for in terms of "encouraging" BACON guys to leave - but maybe that's what they want ?!?

[flybe.com]

IC & BW not only do not possess the competence and man-management skills to cope with the roles they have at Flybe, but also the roles they have been given in this BACon issue. I would suggest it is they that should be reaching for the door.

[Blackcap]

Latest rumour (on the Balpa forum) is that the deal may have foundered?

[Noiffsorbuts]

I do hope so!!!!

Probably only last minute brinkmanship to try to extract more money out of BA.

[oapilot]

Either that or someone has been talking to someone who knows the brother of the bloke down the Spar shop who's cat is related to the bloke that sometimes drives the bus that stops outside Waterworld.....

God, please don't make us have to go and work for our friends in the north if this all goes tits up. Another 18 months of PH promising jam tomorrow, and CP whistling while Rome burns really would do my head in:{ 0

[Pizzaro]

Don't know if I can take any more BA Connect business plans and future size and shapes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards P.

[Dash-7 lover]

Pizzaro - get up to speed - Future Size and Shape was the old spin - it's now called the BA Connect 'Change Programme'

[Pizzaro]

Ah well, now I feel at ease !

[Whispermode]

Frankly, I hope the whole thing falls through. The last thing I want is to find myself again in a Co with more routes that it can service, more aircraft than it can crew and utter chaos at HQ. Flybe is just emerging from the trauma of the last 4 years and its people (wherever they come from or wherever they work) do not need this uncertainty. Whoever thought this due diligence could be sorted out and the whole thing finalised inside the original time scale needs a reality check. :ugh:

Good luck to the Bacons who are looking elsewhere.

[Cutoff]

'Good luck to the Bacons who are looking elsewhere'

What about us Bacons that do not want to go elsewhere? There are some of us that actually just want this deal to go ahead so that we can get on with it. Be part of a company that is not saddled by a totally unsuitable parent, part of a company that does at least know what it wants to be and perhaps be part of something that is in a state of growth and expansion for a change.

[Pizzaro]

Have to agree with you Cutoff, if this deal doesn't go through then where do we go. The truth is BA doesn't want us. Flybe may not be perfect but at least they want us and they also seem to have a plan.Finally they're trying to expand something we have never experienced in Bacon.

Reagrds P.

[Cutoff]

Where do you go is a good point.
I think that the most important motivator is getting a base close to home, followed (closely) by pound notes and then terms and conditions. So if you are with a company that gets you the base that you want that is a big tick (I think anyway).
Further we are all aware that EJ are mopping up, but people are now coming back from assessments with potential start dates of Sept (and beyond), there is no base with them until a month to go to start date and many of their more provincial bases already have people waiting to work there, Liverpool and East Midlands for example.
The traditional charters have now recruited for the summer season, before Mytravel and Thomas Cook merged which will undoubtedly mean fewer jobs, and Jet 2 are now putting people into their hold pool having over recruited. So whilst there are certainly airlines that will willingly interview people from Bacon, and Flybe for that matter, there are not that many at present that can offer immediate starts. This job is better than any real job, I know I tried a few, and I for one am keen that this deal progresses asap so that I can relax a little and keep doing what I love.

[tiggerific_69]

Completely agree with you cutoff.What about those of us trying to get a job,going to interview after interview but not getting a job because you never know what the companies are looking for at these assesments (i am cabin crew,not flight deck). Im going to flybe, as are many of us. Does that mean people like Whispermode wish us bad luck and hope that everything fails for us?
Very nice person

[remoak]

tiggerific_69

Does that mean people like Whispermode wish us bad luck and hope that everything fails for us?

I doubt that anybody thinks that... everybody that comes to flybe comes from another employer, it doesn't matter if it is BACON or somewhere else.

Most flybe folk will be very protective of their seniority and future prospects for command, if they are pilots. That is probably going to be the biggest bone of contention. Neither side wants to be disadvantaged, but the only certainty is that one side will be. Sad, but true.

Having worked for both sides, I hope it can be sorted amicably, but - as they say north of the border - a hae me doots...

[anotherspaceman]

Most flybe folk will be very protective of their seniority and future prospects for command


By the sounds of it there are to be plenty of opportunities for both communities in a very much enlarged company. Just needs a sensible approach with an incremental advantage give to the flybe lads and lasses. I am a BACON lad who wants to transfer

[rhythm method]

What I would be most worried about if I was remaining with flybe/bacon, is that quite a few current Bacon 'managers' have already been pencilled in for the post-merger 'new-flybe'!!!

Current flybe staff need to be worried about that scenario! Ask any of your potential future colleagues about the management track record, and also feel the hairs on the back of your neck rising when you start to see the Bacon old-boy network re-emerging from the dungheap that British Airways left from BRAL & Manx & Brymon!

I'd be very wary... do you know how much money they had to pay out in settlements for victimisation/grievances due to their illegal/incompetent/inept managerial abuse in the last couple of years?!!!!

It's a scary situation for all my friends on both sides of the newly acquired fence if these plonkers are given charge of the day-to-day running of the company.

I hope Flybe manages to flourish if/when this all goes through. We all have too many friends and relations still working there.. I definitely do not want to wish malice on any of these very fine people... I just think that too many of the old boy network are going to parachute into these positions and it will be a backward step instead of the breath of fresh air which Flybe will need.

Good luck.

[The Little Prince]

Having come to terms with the idea of some sort of seniority adjustment, and also with the idea that this whole merger may mean less chance of a 195 for some of us, having grudgingly accepted that maybe eventually it will benefit all of us, I'm beginning to think again.
I sympathise hugely with Cutoff and co :( , but really, looking at the plans, looking at the mess this appears to be turning into, and now looking at how IC and BW in particular have started to behave - coupled with the point that rhythm method has made, What I would be most worried about if I was remaining with flybe/bacon, is that quite a few current Bacon 'managers' have already been pencilled in for the post-merger 'new-flybe'!!!
I have to wonder if this is all a workable idea. Somehow, we seem to have been allocated some real duffers of managers that I know all too well, and who have been involved in some Kilimanjaro sized cockups!!!!:( when with BACON and its predecessors. I just wonder if Flybe REALLY needs this forced expansion - if the deal fell through, then who would pick up the bits of BACON RIND on the floor - I can't think of an organisation big enough. More, if the deal DOES go through, and we have Bacon Rasher influence in many more middle and senior management positions, we could all be facing yet ANOTHER rerun of the last six years of BRAL/BACX/BACON/RASHER. I couldn't go through all that again. Flybe have turned the corner anyway, perhaps, as I recall the great TRPL saying many times..."What we need is a period of consolidation"... of course we never got that, and look where we all ended up - some of us, me included, got fed up and left, and now it's all coming back to haunt us!!!!!!!!!!! Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: :ugh:
I sympathise deeply and genuinely with all you Rashers, and would not like to see bits of rind fall onto the floor in the journey between frying pan and dustbin - however, altruism apart, me and mine come first! If we don't get some coherent plan, with everyone on board, and NO MORE BACON MANAGERS, then my vote is to consign the idea to the dustbin of Aviation History. And then throw Tim de la Fosse, Hutchings, Evans and Witts, along with Phelan and Deacon in before the lid is welded shut!

If you have a silken purse of sorts (or at least a profitable one), attaching a Sow's Ear, (A BACON Sowarny :O ) won't help.

[anotherspaceman]

Well TLP, I appreciate many of the points you make. BACON has several managers who are to go across to the new company. Cotton is one, a real people person and a good bloke. Ian Baston, Steve Deverall and James Smart are also good blokes (Smarty is a bit pompous) but may not have a post after integration. Deacon is not to migrate, neither is Hutchings, Phelan or Evans - thank god :D

I see the problem being for both companies now if it dosen't happen. BACON is stuffed cos the wings are falling off anf flybe will be broke after French has to pay Willie wads of cash for damages.

Not a pretty thought

Glad you managed to come around a bit to the seniority thing etc and hope that we can all achieve are different aspirations. Moi - no interest in a 195 - your are welcome to it!

[The Little Prince]

Hadn't heard about IB, I agree with you, he's a top banana! What is his projected post to be?
Cotton? As I recall many of us thought that he was somewhat overstressed and achieved rank through licking TDLF and subsequently TDLF's protege who we already have here - 'nuff said! Not many original ideas, some might say just a good example of someone else promoted somewhat beyond their abilities.:rolleyes:
Smart - a BIT pompous!!!???!!! :hmm: well, if you count being a member of the Worshipful Company of Archers or whatever, and sucking up to Minime on most occasions, he'll be great.
Some might say that Deverall achieved his elevation solely for the latter reason as well, and became quite insufferable afterwards. Considered by many to be a Hutch/Deak clone.:uhoh:

It might be thought, by some, that Flybe would do better promoting some of its home grown talent rather than importing the remains of failed airline management. I wonder if anyone knows how many of these guys were involved in the processes of victimisation and failed (expensive ) persecution. I know Deverall was involved from the start in that shameful business of trying to discipline an Emb Captain for declining to go into discretion.....

Do you have any more names for us - I was very glad to note, as you say, that at least Deacon is not to migrate, neither is Hutchings:yuk: , Phelan:yuk: or Evans:yuk: :ugh: :yuk: - thank god That would really be the end of the world.

[JAR]

Sun 25th March 2007 sees many more aircraft registrations on FlyBe's daily rotation.

[flyingbug]

Hello JAR,

what do you mean (which airport/s, registrations)?

FB

[JAR]

Aircraft ER4s with reg G-EMB*, DH3s G-BRY*, 143 G-OINV at all bases on the combined route structure.I guess thats EMB145s, Dash3s and 146-300.

[anotherspaceman]

TLP - IB is a top bloke - rumoured to be the new head of flight crew!
Cotton - Disagree - he is as sound as they come. He was overstressed because his boss did f**k all and left it all to him. Rumour is he may be to work for him again. He is more chilled now.
Smart - ok 'bit' was a bit of an understatement! Anyway minime won't be there for him to suck up to.

I am sure flybe has a heap of talented potential managers and it would be good for them to achieve their aspirations I agree.

As far as others go Green is off to s*ittyfryer and the monkey will be dumped at the earliest opportunity I am sure.

The BACON cabin crew have all been asked to attend a WTF day. This is a Welcome to Flybe Day or has been knicknamed the 'what the f**K day'

Most people this side are quite enthusiastic.

What are your opinions about the scheduling agreement?

What in your reformed opinion would be the most equitable way for BALPA to merge the seniority list?

JAR

Those are the regs of the BACON fleets.

[The Little Prince]

OK then, jury out on DC, I'm sure it will be fair to judge him by his actions - what is his post to be? Oh, and please, please, who is the Monkey?? :confused: :confused: I thought this was initials DM, but gather I am wrong.
Ref the scheduling agreement, I would love yours to be implemented, but have to live in the real world. I would suggest we are concerned that it may be conflated with a potential crewing agreement which may do us more harm than is currently expected, mainly with regard to seniority, although I freely admit the issues are not connected. There is also concern, despite all the talk, that it is expensive - we certainly don't want to become overcooked BACON ourselves!
With regard to the seniority list merge, after a lot of thought, I would suggest that it be proportionate to the size of the lists rather than a straightforward DOJ, otherwise inevitably the longer serving Rashers will clean up. I don't think it should affect ANY current Flybe posts, so no demotions, nor should it affect any bids already into Flybe for the 195. In practice, the demography will probably make it perfectly fair anyway, because there are unlikely to be many Rashers or bits of Rind who want to move (after all, that's why you all stayed at your present regional bases) and hence they will get (presumably) first crack at any 195s going to bases with no current Flybe presence. The IOM and INV are cases in point.

I hope you enjoy the "What the Fluckbe" day!

[anotherspaceman]

DC - not sure about post but glad jury out! - thats fair.

Indeed - his initials are DM. He was re appointed to 146 Fleet manager. OD has resigned from combined 146/RJ manager. Rumour has it to join CAA. Green has taken RJ manager job and DM the 146 on a TEMPORARY basis until the fleet is (quickly) absorbed into the flybe AOC at signing.

Andrew Strong came to see us. He said that there was a cost to the scheduling agreement but that he knew, and wanted to make clear, that it was NOT this that 'cooked' the BACON. He said he was willing to take a good proportion of the cost but not all. He said he recognised the current lifestyle (or lack of - his words) required to be addressed.

With regard to the list - nobody wants anybody to clean up or to take or have an advantage. A thought would be to give the flybe an increment and the merge them no 1 on flybe then no 1 on BACON then 2 on flybe etc etc. It wiould be illegal for it to have an adverse effect on anybodies current position/type/seat etc - no fear of that

WTF day for cabin crew only - at the moment!

Now we have BACON and rashers etc what about flymaybes etc. Any rashers any ideas?

[skianyn vannin]

DM is indeed "The Monkey". Word on the streets is that his reappointment as146 FM maybe a lot more permanent than some may have wished. I'm sure his old mucker BW will take care of him. After all DM was responsible for some of the murky goings on when BW was appointed fleet senior trainer. Maybe now BW will reciprocate the favour!

[Dash-7 lover]

Heard that the deal signing that 'may' happen on the 28th will go right to the wire again.....Flybe haven't released their main summer schedules yet and are itching to get going before they have no summer at all. They may be looking at October and are rumoured to be quite upset over the crew shortage cancellations. The second cabin crew ballot result was supposed to be today but not heard the result......
If the deal doesn't get signed - what happens to Cityflyer???? (actually - who cares?)

[Tyreplug]

If you were not already aware the sched' agreement was signed up yesterday between flybe & connect. It will appear on view very soon. Believe this was the last obstacle in the way of completion of the deal. looks like it's a dead cert now!.... Remember this a rumour network - but this is a bloody good rumour!

[Buy one get one free]

Last two days FLYBE people have been approaching pilots in the terminal buildings at EDI & GLA handing out leaflets and CD roms inviting them to apply on-line. Great amusement in the Loganair crew rooms I am told.
Road shows next week.

Some might say this is a bit "cheeky" - it is clearly a sign of how short of crews they will be, and that they are trying anything to get the numbers up.


Nearly as bad as being intercepted by timeshares touts at GCTS. :=

[Slackbladder31]

Has anybody any idea roughly how many flight deck are leaving BHX?

I ask for selfish reasons as I am due to start with Flybe in a couple of months and was told there was no chance of BHX basing at interview.

I wish everyone good luck with what every path they take. I have been following this thread with interest thinking what the blazes have I got myself into?

[anotherspaceman]

A very fine mess indeed :)

[granddaddy]

I don't want to pee on your chips,but,

Have you seen the Euromanx thread reference possible deal with Flybe on IOM routes::( :( :( :(

[Whispermode]

Just to respond to tiggerific69, of course I don't wish ill of those Bacon employees who may or may not eventually join up with flybe, from whatever role or position they come from or go to.
My concern is one of practicalities. I have worked for flybe for nearly 10 yrs now and have endured, along with many of my colleagues, the mess and disruption that we have all had to go through since 2000 when we all but went to the wall. Unlike some in Bacon we at flybe have had no 'charm' offensive or management visits, talk of scheduling agreement is exactly that - just talk, nothing in writing and everything has dragged on in a complete vacuum for us here with clearly more and more Bacon people leaving, from ground and air positions.
I know what flybe was like when we had more aircraft than we could crew, when 30% of the pilot workforce turned over in a year, when, as a line trainer, I barely knew which day of the week it was let along from which base I was operating from and I can see it all about to happen again. I have absolutely nothing against any employee from Bacon (my best man happens to be an ex Brymon Bacon) but I can just see the bad old days coming around the corner again, especially in the training area - do you know we are now being offered a bonus to recruit a pilot for flybe? :hmm:
So, to make it absolutely clear, good luck to all Bacon employees whether you stay or go but I still wish this deal had been better thought through because I don't have any confidence in the flybe infrastructure being able to cope with the Co doubling in size overnight.

[RAFAT]

I don't have any confidence in the flybe infrastructure being able to cope with the Co doubling in size overnight.

Hit the nail on the head with that comment Whispermode. IC & BW are already struggling to stay afloat, and making a whole bunch of mistakes as they go along.

[The Little Prince]

I know where you're coming from Whisper, and I agree entirely. However, if the deal is signed, then it's going to happen - the smooth implementation (or not) will be down to our management and those bits of Rasher or Rind who are appointed or who stay in post. Inevitable that there is going to be some mayhem with the training schedule - but hey, that's why you get paid the extra bucks, can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined!!;)
With ref the seniority list from the spaceman, yes, that sounds fair, provided every one agrees on the size of the increment:} . With ref the Monkey (why is he called that???) how can we get confirmation regarding the permanence of his post?? Not that it's my fleet, but I do remember him of old, a real mucker of Hutch and the Feelan!:cool:
I'm still not holding my breath, but the deal is looking more done than not from all I hear, and just maybe it's not a bad thing. I've been speaking to a Bacon CC member, and I think things will be done fairly, at least as far as possible!
Go with the flow guys, it's easier and less painful. :oh:

[Rider of the Purple Sage]

It's been many moons since I was with BACON, it was called BACX then.(what's the difference between BACON and RASHER and RIND anyway??)

However, I always thought DM was a kosher bloke. Sorry indeed to see all the unhappiness and slagging off that's gone on here, I sincerely hope it all turns out well for you. It was a wrench leaving the Final Salary Pension, but it looks as though that's gone now anyway. There is life outside BACX etc etc, and it's turned out to be a much better one than I thought possible. I don't mean just leave for the sake of leaving, but do consider it - initially there's a big loss of 'comfort zone' with a new type, new SOPs, new colleagues, trainers, management, routes etc, but it's only after about a year that you come to realise that BACX is/was actually a tuppeny halfpenny operation in the great scheme of things, and not actually half as professional as it thinks! No reflection on any ex-colleagues intended.:O

[Ghengis Cant]

About the single most stupid thing French did (apart from setting a totaly unrealistic time scale for this deal) was to send in IC and BW to talk to their old mates about how wonderful FLYBE was.

The message they brought and the manner it was carried is one of the largest reasons so many of us decided to get the hell out..........

Nothing against the guys personaly..just ambitious fellows trying to leg it up the ladder..............but the acceptable face of FLYBE??

We know them and whats in their broom cupboards too well. Pity Jim didnt take a peek.

[brain fade]

Just to add my name to the long list of Rashers..................who are not coming.

Good luck to the new company and all who sail in her.:ok:

I'll miss the Barbie.;)

[anotherspaceman]

TLP said

I think things will be done fairly


Thats all anyone can or should expect. (does size matter??) - of course

The monkey? because he is! :eek:

IC and BW have come across as a couple of di*khead* and have renewed few friendships they may once have had.

[Norwegian]

Is there any Norwegians at Flybe now. PLS pm me.

[Sky God]

Being a bit rash aren't we? My understanding (and being a Sky God I'm always right) is that the outcome will be:

(i) smashing and FlyBe will give us fair conditions, a few more £s and some nice modern jets to fly

or

(ii) BACON will fold and on the way out we will trouser redundancy - then we will just follow our buddies to the LOCOs

Over the past few weeks I seen a lot of 'out of the frying pan in to the fire' type career moves. Better the devil you know.

[anotherspaceman]

Over the past few weeks I seen a lot of


Not in your use of the English language I fear - 'I saw' dear Sky God.

[Mike Mercury]

A lot of people would probably agree that IC was always a complete dick, used to go on and on about how many thousand hours he had on the VC10, but not actually tell anyone they were all as a Flight Engineer!!! Pillock!:mad:

Sorry to hear about BW though, always thought he was a pretty straight sort of a bloke, hope it wasn't the Flybe effect that changed him!:O

[Grand yahoo]

Good luck to all and remember that the bacon pilot management were being controlled by the people at the top with their gangs of 4 or 5, future size and all the other total waste of breath when they should have been selling seats.

DE & SW were calling the shots and toppled RH & Dental Flos.

SW has lasted all the way since BA bought BRAL, is he the bogey man?

As with previous posters I couldn't live with all the cr*p and spin that came from the top and just left. Bit nervy at first but after a few months put the nightmare behind me.