Flybe to aquire BA Connect. Crew thread. (No Spotters)-(Part 2)

[keep em flying]

Thats it, i'm off, i'm not joining a company on c**p T's and C's, working more nights for less money, less holidays and a worse pension just so Jim and his buddies get richer, BACON Engineers were amongst the worst paid and now we get stitched even more, i hope you jockeys can accept a drop in standards when all the part time labour moves in around the bases, so far at MAN 2 have left and at least 10 are awaiting todays final nail. Nice working with you guys. Let the leaving parties begin!!!

[anotherspaceman]

KEF
Those of us staying wish you well :D

[tristar500]

Brain Fade, aspaceman and anyone else who has had a pop at EDI...
OK, so the deal is done. BA Mainline staff are out, Aviance are in. No more delays then, all things being equal EDI should be the best station in the network now - shouldnt it?
Iam going to end this post by saying that yes, EDI wasnt the greatest station in the network - I never said it was. It had its problems and we all know what and who they were. However no point crying over spilt milk - BUT please spare a thought for the hard working staff who DID try and who DID take pride in their jobs. We were greatly under staffed - moreso in the last 3 years. We were greatly under funded as we were the only station outside LHR to have their own loading/ramp section, this required vast sums of cash to keep going - evident in the LACK of equipement (if and when it worked).
Iam not making excuses here but look at the facts before decrying the station. There were also factors out-with BA Mainlines control... ie Constantly tech aircraft in the Connect fleet, constant weather delays with Loganair flights and competition from other airlines - (something BA could have dealt with years ago).
Now we know whats ahead, I sincerely wish everyone a bright and prosperous future whatever that may be. I have enjoyed my 10 years at BA through thick and thin. No hard feelings aspaceman eh?

[aspaceman]

Things are never easy in times like this and real people suffer. I am sure there were many at EDI who took pride in their job as well as those described earlier. I genuinely wish you all the very best and hope that you secure employment and prosper. The very best of luck :ok:

[flyhigh2fly]

In the newspaper this morning: This month there are going to be 900 hundred flights cancelled from Bacon/Flybe.
Routes that are going to be cancelled plus of course more to come: Bristol-Munich, Bristol-Zürich, Birmingham-Barcelona, Birmingham-Madrid, Birmingham-Berlin, Manchester-Wiena, Manchester-Lyon, Manchester-Aberdeen, Manchester-Madrid and Edinburgh-Hamburg.

I guess bmi baby is going to fly to Madrid from Bhx now!! and make loads of money like Bacon did. They are already going to start to fly to Barcelona in the summer I believe

The best of luck to everybody!

[ivor toolbox]

read it yourselves

http://nextgenerationairline.com/pdf/brs.pdf

nice working with everyone, off to post my cv

ttfn

[clv101]

Does anyone know why this is happening? What was wrong with Bristol? I'm a regular flyer on the BA Connect Bristol-Paris route, it's often full of people paying £300-400 a seat. That route alone must have been profitable, where the others bad? Are there external factors?

Will EasyJet put an early morning Bristol-Paris flight on?

[flyhigh2fly]

What a shame! all the best to the wonderful people in BRS

[ciderman]

BRS base closure

I have to position on the BRS- EDI route evey week for duty and have thoroughly enjoyed the flights and the profesisonalism shown by the flight deck, cabin crew and ground staff. To all of you affected I'm very sorry to hear this and hope you get something that suits you soon and I shall miss my Wednesday evening flights with you. Easyland here we come again!!

[brain fade]

This is rotten news and the people who work there deserve better.

The ground folk in particular are a cut above those found at other stations.

Good Luck folks. :sad:

[ivor toolbox]

Does anyone know why this is happening? What was wrong with Bristol? I'm a regular flyer on the BA Connect Bristol-Paris route, it's often full of people paying £300-400 a seat. That route alone must have been profitable, where the others bad? Are there external factors?


I fear the answer,sadly, is petty politics; Flybe do not want to deal with BRS airport management, or vice-versa; whatever; the "South-West's Largest Airline" obviously doesn't want to fly from the airport that is largest in the south-west.

ttfn

[Flying Farmer]

Have to agree, we use BAcon hadling and engineers at BRS and the news must have come as a shock for most. Saw more than a few tears today walking through the old terminal :(

Sad news guys , I hope you all get jobs sorted out quickly.

Might the answer to the above question re Flybe and BRS be that Flybe do not want to go head to head with Easy.

[Anotherflapoperator]

Perhaps not wanting to go head to head with Easy is reason enough, but surely the location of Exeter is a major point as well. I know it's a fair drive if you're a Bristol resident, but from the South, the choice would mean dividing resources to compete against themselves, not good business.

A very sad day for all at Bristol. I for one will remember Brymon as the credit to the Southwest that it was, and shall remember the hard work, dedication and professionalism of all who served and deserved so much better than the nasty carve up job Waterworld delivered.

Had Brymon tied up with BRAL and the BRAL management without BA's meddling and interference, politics and complication, we might all have survived intact and stronger. Here's to how it might have been.

I've only visited Bristol twice, but thank you all for your hospitality and warmth while I was there. Those that manage the great Orange escape route, you'll be a credit to them and best of luck.

Remember, it shouldn't really be seen as FlyBE's fault that the base is to close, from a pure business standpoint, it wasn't really viable with Exeter so close and Easy so prominent and in favour with the Airport. A good Business chooses it's battles wisely.

At least there are other options reasonably close. For the IOM staff and engineers, the future is very bleak indeed. There may be full employment, but a lot of the jobs pay crap and in no way are comparable. My heartfelt sympathy also goes out to all the Viscount House and Hanger staff. Best of luck.

Finally, what a crappy way to publicise the hand over. 900 flights cancelled! Great headline. As most of them are simply switches to code shared FlyBE flights, the lower number would have been better, routes only rather than the combined rotations of all the flights affected either way for the whole month.

It was nice to hear about all the cancelled flights whilst sitting in one operating as normal, funny that. It'll do wonders for the loads this month, not!

Best of luck everyone, let's hope the transition goes smoothly as far as possible.

[Red Snake]

So are Flybe now in the interesting situation of having to pay redundancy to pilots in BRS whilst desperately trying to recruit them elsewhere?

I feel a career change into management consultancy coming on. It must be so easy with the likes of Flybe around.

[Noiffsorbuts]

You said it snakeman! Redundancy, relocation or touring and FLYBE want our answers yesterday.

Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Total bolluc%$ about MXP,ZRH and MUC routes being loss makers from BRS. These were some of our best with regular load factors in excess of 80%. Also to throw away CDG is mind boggling. An absolute gem route which was amongst the top performers in the company.

There is a political game being played out where we are only pawns......as usual.

The one thing that stands out above all the rest amidst the crap news about BRS....the arrival of smiling Jim's propaganda sheet.

"We have created the biggest regional airline in Europe" he crows.

Exactly what David Evans said of BA CitiExpress four years ago before the slide into oblivion began.

Good luck those of you who are staying.

You will need it.

[GroundBunnie]

Thanks to all of you for your kind words about BRS Ground. I shall pass them on. The party is in The Bungalow on 31Mar, you're all welcome, drop me a line if interested.

I had to cover dispatch today as we were short, not nice at all. CC in tears, and some drivers very pi**ed off. At least we on the ground were not expecting to stay, so the arrival of an end date was welcome, really. Not so clever if you were promised a BRS base, and then had the rug pulled.

Good luck to you all. Even you, Borat!

GB

[Flying Farmer]

Relative newcomer to BRS Ground Bunnie but would like to join you, can you PM details? :ok:

[remoak]

noiffs


Total bolluc%$ about MXP,ZRH and MUC routes being loss makers from BRS. These were some of our best with regular load factors in excess of 80%.

It has little to do with load factors, it is yield that determines the viability of a route. Many apparently high-load routes have gone the way of the dodo due to poor yield.

[Noiffsorbuts]

Fair point, but with no competition on these routes and heavy demand there was clearly scope to increase yield. Then again our lot probably never thought of that!

[remoak]

Even better point!!! :}

[Red Snake]

> We could not make a viable economic case for its retention

The problem with that statement is it's inconsistent with what we've always been told in the past i.e. BRS-CDG is one of the top performing routes with good loads & (presumably) good yields. No competition on MUC/FRA/ZUR, again good loads.

But, it's your sandpit. Not mine anymore. TTFN.

[Shoo shoo]

So who are you then? If you are the Flybe Flt Ops Director come out and say so clearly and give your name.

I have yet to meet a corporate manager who was straight & gave the un spun facts (except one & he quit) so what you are doing is reinforcing my prejudice - if prejudice it be - rather than impart useful information and the logical points made by No iffs & others have not been directly answered.

I am no longer BACON or BRS but was once and it was always the flagship base in Brymon & it IS true that Ej & other competition does not exist on the routes mentioned above.

If it is the usual parochial issues (like those when Brymon merged with Birmingahm European) that you want the crews and aircraft to feather your own cosy nest then just say so.

SS shu boogie.

[The Fleet Manager]

I sincerely wish all of you all the very best - it's instructive to note how the more emotive rhetoric is already calming down very rapidly.
We all enjoy the Industry and try to optimise our careers, but we all also quite rightly prioritise the wellbeing and future of our families - unsurprisingly, some of us therefore go a little over the top when these latter things are threatened by circumstances outwith our control. There is no reason I am aware of why Flybe should not become the market leader in the Regional sector with appropriate remuneration. If I were in your particular goldfish bowl, I believe I would rather be part of Flybe than what appears to be a high risk BA Cityflyer operation - at least in terms of the believeable BA commitment to the same.

However, philosophically speaking, things are rarely as good or as bad as they seem, and things generally seem to work out for most of us in the long run - if that turns out not to be the case, ....... we shall probably be recruiting again come the Autumn !

[MVE]

err???? He has given his name, or at least his initials. It wouldn't take much research to find they are correct? .........oh and they are!:ugh:

[RAFAT]

MVE - I think it would be wise to reserve judgement on TFOD's true ID at this stage. I doubt the real JA has enough time to scratch his bum, let alone review and reply to issues on here.

Additionally, the age is wrong, I know JA's birthday.

[Captain Correlli]

Anybody still within the FlyBacon setup know what the deal is on the pension?
I'm very interested to know who has picked up legal responsibility for the fund, and more importantly, its now deferred members and their pensions.:confused:

[G-FLYB]

Plenty of news on the BALPA website!

[ivor toolbox]

Names and true identities apart, unfortunately for those of us at the 'coal face' it now just seems as if we were going to be exchanging one bunch of lying two faced management for another, when it all seemed so optimistic, and yes we've all heard 'the biggest regional airline in europe' jingo before.

When the deal was first mooted, coming hot on the heels of the Flybe 'spat' with Brs Airport which saw all the (very) prominent Flybe advertising removed from Brs, it was accepted by most that there would be no future for Brs.

However after a succession of staff forums, and liason visits by senior Flybe staff, the picture had changed, route plans were afoot up until 2010, we were shown the predicted route plans and received firm
confirmation that there was a place for Brs and its' routes, albeit with some changes, and this is the story that we got at every meeting with every Flybe representative.

Now in BACON we've had over 4 years of blatant lying from messrs Evans and Co, and frankly, we're all fed up with it, and were looking forward to a fresh management, but now Flybe look to be starting as they mean to go on, barely has the ink dried and the true colours have been nailed to the mast.

So, on behalf of everyone who's not getting offered the choice of tours or relocation ....

Up Yours Jim French


ttfn

[Captain Correlli]

I hear what you say regarding BALPA, fortunately in many respects, I gave myself a 1% pay rise some years ago. I don't ask for anything confidential, but any info at all would be helpful. I've tried the Head Trustee, a certain KM, :ugh: but he's never available to take my calls, and as I understand it, isn't with FlyBacon any way. A pm would be helpful if you don't want to go public.

Cheers,

AC

[Sheikh Zabik]

In connection with the base closure at BRS, interesting to note that Jim French did not even play lip service to his statutory obligation to notify/consult with any union before announcing closure.

When you see this Mr French (apparently you do read Pprune!) you might be interested to know that even amongst those who were prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt you are loosing what little respect there was for you.

If you want to play the big business man, then act like one and not like a tin pot cowboy.

[wacky]

FlYbe's management, much as expected from when the proposal was first announced back in Nov, have now shown everyone exactly the sort of people they are. Are Flybe pilots aware that rashers will be paid a £3000 bonus at end of June providing we have not tendered our resignation by then? Hmmmm, that's nearly a £1M payout if we all stay that long. Especially surprising following the recent announcement by Flybe of a £12.2M pre-tax loss in its latest trading year. Did you manage to weasel that from Willie as an extra payment for the deal proceeding? Not that a measly £3K will change anyones decision to leave before the 3 months is up. What a strange tactic. But leave is what many if not majority will continue to do - for our lifestyle issues are now shafted. What does it take for Jim F to realise that lifestyle is THE important factor that keeps pilots in regional type flying? Most people will accept hard work providing they can plan their life and say NO when necessary. The excuse for a scheduling agreement that has been forced upon us leaves no-one in any doubt that you don't give a damn about lifestyle. Well sorry Jim, you're about to learn the hard way.

[The Little Prince]

Welcome to all you bits of bacon rasher and rind, streaked and smoky, raw and burnt, all now arriving legally into Flybe, sliced pork no longer, but joining a proud organisation with a history of loyalty and effort/reward second to none, a skilled and experienced management team complemented by the luminaries who have arrived from their successes with frying bacon - out of the frying pan into the, er, the, er.....bigger hotter frying pan!
More seriously, I hope you enjoy it, I hope you don't find the seniority adjustment unfair - I believe we in pre-baconrasher can live with it. Congrats on the three grand golden hello - I suppose it'd be daft to ask why us old hands aren't getting it for staying too - but hey, no grudges held here (YOUR ROUND!!!!!!!;) !)
For those of you leaving, good luck and enjoy the rest of your lives - it'd be nice if you could start a new thread entitled maybe "How BA and WW screwed us over" :p or something; I hope we won't be on the receiving end of your bile in the meantime, after all, it was WW who ditched your loss making enterprise, not Flybe!
Let's go forward together, hand in hand, workers and management, Wotsits and (bribed) Baconeers, Flybes and fellowship, all in one nice package....

Now, about the scheduling agreement........:D

[BIGBAD]

The £3000 payment is only for captains - first oficers are only getting £1500 .

Its not going to cost flybe that much as there are a significant amount of guys leaving. I know of at least a dozen colleagues at my base who have courses with easyjet in August and I don't think any of them will retract their notice for £1500 or £3000 or even try to delay courses as easy are fully booked up till autumn.

I will not be retracting my notice for £1500 (before tax) !!!

[W_18]

Hi TLP
2 days after showing us the plan for 2010 @ BRS your beloved management came back and with no notice shut the base.
My first indication of this was walking into the crew room past rows of weeping cabin crew who had just been given, with no notice, the news that the base was to close. Relocation on a cabin crew salary is a non starter.That is not an experience I or others will forget or forgive.
The No2 on my flight had 2 children, a £700 mortgage and no partner, therefore a very bleak future.
This was all done without notice or the usual consulation period.
Most of us blame messers French Rutter and Strong.
The felling is very high. Personnally I would like to find someone to place a "Contract" with.
This is a cyclical business. Hopefully they will get their just deserts in time.
Your facile comments are not required at this time.

[BusterHot]

Sad though the closure of the BRS base is (I don't fully understand it myself), one has to ask the question. How many of the E145 guys had resigned before the Flybe/BAConnect deal was finalized last week and did this have any bearing on the decision? Come to that, if the numbers are correct that upwards of 150 of the "Rashers" are heading elsewhere (with possibly more to follow), how are Flybe supposed to crew all those flights and man all the bases? I'm no financial genius but even I can see that something somewhere has to give and offering everyone a £10k pay rise and keeping every base open is just not an option.

Flybe have been operating out of BRS in various numbers for years and they've obviously decided that it's not viable "big time". I'm sure they'll keep a few routes up their sleeve for use later, but in order to make BRS pay, I'm sure they'd have to go head to head with easyJet and I suspect right now they'd loose that particular battle. Keeping BRS open for "later use" and absorbing the costs just isn't the way we operate, otherwise I'm sure we'd have a base there right now.

If there are good routes to be serviced out of BRS, then I'm sure Flybe will operate them but using W patterns from other bases. They've just announced a CWL-CDG route and we don't have a base in Cardiff so where the a/c that operates that route will be from remains to be seen.

Announcing the closure of BRS the day after deal was finally signed wasn't a particularly good move especially if the comments about them trying to assure the BRS personnel that they had a future are correct. However, call them bast£$%s if you will, but in the end this is business and sometimes painful decisions have to be made. If you want to see how people were really shafted remember what happened to Buzz when Ryanair got hold of them. It's a cut throat world out there and we're all only as secure as our last pay cheque. Flybe don't have a huge organization behind them to absorb losses for a long time before they pull the plug. Unless we get it right, quickly, we're history.

My condolences to all the BRS personnel; I'm sure you'll have jobs in no time.

[G-FLYB]

Jim

If you want to retain the rest of the BACON pilots, until the end of their careers, you can do it in one hit. Keep the BACON FS pension scheme and you will retain all of the crews. Easy.............

:)

[W_18]

Everyone has a price mate but I think it would take more than that after BRS.
Look at the thread on people leaving.

[Ghengis Cant]

"Want to land a BIG airline job without sacrificing your lifestyle?"

"Land a job at any of our bases"

"Its all yours when you land a better job with us"

So states the Flight wrapper amidst the lies about pay and a picture of a family man playing with his kids after work.

Apart from the pukeworthy hypocricy and lies it really is hard to see the sense in what is now happening at BRS.

At a stroke it puts further downward pressure on pilot numbers as well as showing FLYBE management as being completely untrustworthy.

Most concerningly it shows a company that one day is blowing its trumpet about expanding and the next is shutting up shop at a highly significant regional base and uspsetting a lot of would be customers as a result.

I wonder who will take the blame for the ridiculous situation FLYBE is now in of having to make pilots redundant whilst at the same time desperately recruiting. It makes no sense whatsoever and shows a company that has already lost the plot.

[BusterHot]

Just taken a look at the Flight Information page of AIMS for the 25th March onwards which is the date of the full amalgamation. Boy do we have some movements. They haven't added the crew names to the flights yet, but 50 flights out of BHX alone is quite impressive; then check MAN.

Together, we have to make this work. I look forward to meeting you guys.

[W_18]

The only AIMS i can find on the web is the Association for Improvement in Maternity Services( check it out on google), do Maternity Services now cover departures as well as arrivals and is it more reliable than flybe management?

[BusterHot]

Ho Ho. Hopefully you'll get access to Flybe AIMS via your crew room/home asap. Rgds.

[W_18]

Hopefully not

[W_18]

After 25th i dont have a crew room/home

[Shoo shoo]

What a very sad story - esp re BRS-, W18, as an ex BRS Rasher we may know each other & I wish you & your colleagues all the best, but what hollow words they sound.

What people need is a job and it is interesting to note that the negotiating team who shook hands with JF & co on the day they all agreed terms, were told nothing of these plans.

The deal was signed with BA on the Monday & then out comes the news that BRS is for the chop. Maybe they didn't know they were intending to do that when they ensured the reps the future was good? Maybe pigs really can fly?

I refer back to my earlier post, and repeat that corporate managers never give you the straight unspun picture, at least not in my very long experience.

They also regularly make huge cock ups and still think they are very clever people. The only way to deal with them is to either always assume the worst (& you'll need a lively imagination as BRS shows) or unionise to the level that BA mainline has.

Anyone who thinks that their Ts&Cs would be what they are without over 90% member ship + a real willingness to strike, is sadly mistaken.

I am not a spokesman for BALPA but in that repsect you pays you money etc etc

SS sh B

[remoak]

Anyone who thinks that the BRS closure was not discussed and agreed by both parties, well before it was announced, has a very loose grip on reality.

Similarly, anyone who thinks that flybe wouldn't have retained the base, if there was any chance at all of making money on it, is equally deluded.

Having been affected by several base closures over the years, I sympathise, but they don't do it to piss you off. It's all about economics/loads/yields/forecasts/competition, which is exactly what it should be. Crews do not have a holy right to stay employed in their local base, the industry simply does not work like that, and if it did, flybe would be making the same losses that BACON did and would last about the same length of time.

Some of you need to take your rose-tinted BA shades off...

[Skylion]

BACON as it was has collapsed and been given away, complete with dowry. It is entirely reasonable for the new owner, FlyBE , to do what it takes to ensure that the combined companies are profitable,- and to do it quickly. There is no point in pissing millions down the drain while protracted negotiations and consultations bleed away cash available for future development or survival even. If FlyBE don't act decisively there is no future for anyone and all that FlyBE have built up,- including the opportunities for many in the UK airline industry,- would disappear. Jim French and his team are not just entitled but obliged to act in the best interests of the long term business. While this may be uncomfortable it is not an assault on the staff,- it is to give most of them a future. FlyBE has done well in reinventing itself and being innovative. It now deserves the wholehearted enthusiasm and support of those who are staying to make it work. Mergers are never easy. It has taken BOAC and BEA over 30 years so far and it isn't until they get into T 5 next year that ground handling at LHR is unified. A lot of flexibility is needed and digging into fortified positions to resist the necessary and inevitable changes would only bring the whole roof down on everybody.

[Red Snake]

Some of you need to take your rose-tinted BA shades off...

Au contraire. Just change the tint to orange.

[remoak]

Yes, that would work too... although I suspect that the culture shift from BACON to Easyjet is even larger than BACON to flybe...

[W_18]

I dont have any BA tinted shades BA stuff up regional airlines, both historically ( Eagle, Cambrian, Brymon, BRAL BAConnect)and now every time they set their dainty feet outside LHR I am in no way a BA supporter..
And if this closure was planned well in advance why was their engineering manager showing our engineers the planned work at BRS up to2010,and why were BALPA shown the list of staff required at BRS for the next year (41pilots plus cabin crew and engineers,numbers of which I am ashamed to say that I can`t remember)only a week before the closure.
I have no problem with management deciding that a base isnt viable, I`ve been there before.
I have a distinct problem with low life trash that handle their employees this way. Oh, I`ve just realised, maybe thats why they don`t have enough pilots of their own.
And you sunshine wern`t there to see the girls crying maybe if you had been you might have a slightly more understanding attitude.

[Red Snake]

I suspect that the culture shift from BACON to Easyjet is even larger than BACON to flybe...

Well, let's see: reasonable pay, good colleagues, stable roster, home most nights, 12 hour days, knackered after 5 days on, good chance of staying on a jet aircraft, reasonable job security...hmmmm.....decent BRS base.....yes we're getting there now..... - you're right.. big culture shift.

[bermudatriangle]

This fiasco just goes from bad to worse....what fun the summer schedule will provide.Good luck to all of you trying to make this circus run like an on time regional airline....looks to me like the basic requirements to run a decent operation will not be in place.I will watch with amusement !

[red17]

Does anyone have any details on the BE/BA codeshare agreement?

[208]

one of the reasons for the BRS closure could well be the number of crews who have left(deserted) Flybe are just protecting all the other routes.
Just look at the number of cancalations accross the BACON network in Feb/Mar BRS unfortunatly was a nice small base easy to close and realocate the aircraft.

[Red Snake]

one of the reasons for the BRS closure could well be the number of crews who have left(deserted)
The reason so many deserted is exactly because of the complete lack of commitment to BRS that Flybe has shown right from the press release on day one of the acquisition announcement. I don't think any of us believed a BRS base would stay permanently in Flybe's plans given the history of Flybe with BRS, but the callous speed with which it was dropped even after assurances there would be 2 ERJ145s based here at least through summer 07 is why there is so much vitriol against them right now.

A great many of us were willing to give it a try. Yes, we were upset to loose the BA label even if we never did look through real BA tinted glasses, but the continued lack of communication and uncertainty over the post-acquisition issues has had even the most die hard believers tripping over each other to the exit door.

And, I said in another post somewhere, there's a strong whiff of BS surrounding the stated reasons for the BRS closing. We were often told that BRS was a good performing base. Our loads have been good on most routes where EZY didn't compete. The tickets aren't cheap so the yields can't be that bad. CDG has been a stalwart performer for years at BRS - you don't operate 4 flights per day for 10 years if the route isn't viable. Yet, all of a sudden 'there's no way we can see a financially viable model for maintaining a base at BRS'. Strong whiff, indeed.

[Shoo shoo]

"Some of you need to take your rose-tinted BA shades off..."

I know of nobody at BRS who wears them.

That sort of comment is an example of the lack of commone decency displayed by the management. Of course bases have to close and airlines need to make money that is not the point.

You can take tough decisions but it depends HOW you impliment them & just tossing peope asside without looking after them or handling them sensitively has no excuse.

W_18 has hit the spot too. It will not be the managers who take the heat but as always those at the coal face. These people have already had one re-organisation after another and their once profitable airline trashed. Surely the way to help Flybe as well as them is to be the kind of employer people want to stay with rather than escape from.

Frankly few managers have the imagination or leadership qualities to do it. They understand stick but not carrot.

It's a free country & pilots can walk if they want ( it's not desertion) - and usually do - because they are in deamand, Not everyone is so lucky.

[Shoo shoo]

Moderator - can you explain why my last post produced a response - "The Moderator must view this before posting" and has subsequntly not appeared? There was nothing offensive in it.

[W_18]

maybe you mentioned flybe, that would be offensive to some

[Resurgam]

Monty Pythons Dead Airline Sketch
The cast:
MONSIEUR F.B.
John Cleese
HONEST PADDY OF WATERWORLD AIRLINE EMPORIUM
Michael Palin

The sketch:
A customer enters ‘Honest Paddy's' airline emporium.
Monsieur F.B: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(Honest Paddy does not respond, and looks shifty.)
Monsieur F.B: 'Ello, I wish to make a complaint!
Honest Paddy: We're closin' for lunch.
Monsieur F.B: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this airline what I purchased not half a week ago from this very boutique.
Honest Paddy: Oh yes, the, uh, the BA Connect...What's wrong with it?
Monsieur F.B: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. Its dead, that's what's wrong with it!
Honest Paddy: No, no, its uh,...its resting.
Monsieur F.B: Look, matey, I know a dead airline when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Honest Paddy: No no its not dead, its restin'! Remarkable airline the BA Connect - Beautiful hexperienced flight crews!
Monsieur F.B: The flight crews don't enter into it, they’ve all turned orange and disappeared. It's stone dead.
Honest Paddy: Nononono, no, no! 'They’re resting!
Monsieur F.B: All right then, if they’re restin', I'll wake them up! (picks up phone, dials crew room) 'Ello, BA Connect flight crews! I've got some lovely new routes for you.
(Honest Paddy shouts “hello” out of corner of mouth pretending to be answering the phone)
Honest Paddy: There, they answered!
Monsieur F.B: No, they didn't, that was you pretending to answer!
Honest Paddy: I never!!
Monsieur F.B: Yes, you did!
Honest Paddy: I never, never did anything...
Monsieur F.B: (yelling and banging the phone hand piece repeatedly) 'ELLO BA CONNECT CREWS!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!......... Now that's what I call a dead airline.
Honest Paddy: No, no.....No, they’re stunned!
Monsieur F.B: STUNNED?!?
Honest Paddy: Yeah! You stunned them by taking away their scheduling agreement! BA Connect pilots stun easily, major.
Monsieur F.B: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That airline is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf a week ago, you assured me that it had lots of pilots.
Honest Paddy: Well, they’re...they’re ah...probably pining for their scheduling agreement.
Monsieur F.B: PININ' for the scheduling agreement?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that? Look, I took the liberty of examining this airline when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it was still keeping crews was that you’d promised them two full years to sort it out.
(pause)
Honest Paddy: Well, o'course I had to promise them two years! If I hadn't been economical with the truth they'd have all pushed off long ago - VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Monsieur F.B: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this airline wouldn't have enough pilots to go "voom" even if you cancelled loads of flights, mothballed aircraft, and closed bases! Its bleedin' demised!
Honest Paddy: No no! They’re pining!
Monsieur F.B: They’re not pinin'! Its passed on! This airline is no more! Its expired and gone to meet 'is maker! Its a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! Its off the twig! Its kicked the bucket, Its shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the AOG operation in the sky!! THIS IS AN EX-AIRLINE!! IT HAS CEASED TO FLY BE
(pause)
Honest Paddy: Well, I'd better replace it, then. (he takes a quick peek behind the counter) Sorry squire, I've had a look round and uh, we're right out of regional operators, an I got shot of B-Med a couple of weeks back.
Monsieur F.B: I see. I see, I get the picture.
Honest Paddy: I got a GB Airways.
(pause)
Monsieur F.B: Pray, does it operate regional aircraft?
Honest Paddy: Nnnnot really.
Monsieur F.B: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
Honest Paddy: N-no, I guess not. (gets ashamed, looks at his feet)
Monsieur F.B: Well.
(pause)
Honest Paddy: (quietly) D'you.... d'you want to come back to my place? I think out the back I’ve got a Gatwick operation I was thinking of getting rid of.
Monsieur F.B: (looks around) Yeah, all right….. if you bung me another couple of million to take it off your hands.

[marlowe]

Resurgam you forget that Willie has the shiny new Cityflyer to offload in the future, he has given it the dreaded full backing of the board speech so as soon as he can get LCY under the mainline banner it will have passed its point of usefulness and he can take it out back and shoot it!!!

[The Fleet Manager]

It seems that I was wrong, things are not calming down at all, if anything, the feelings on here seem to have polarised even more. My sympathy to those who are made redundant. (When a Company ceases a route, it is not usually very long before a smaller operator sees an opportunity - I hope this may happen for BRS)
Do bear in mind that a Company of any description cannot tell all its employees all its plans all the time - having said that, I can quite appreciate (assuming the Prune version is the accurate one) where you are coming from, and it does seem like rather poor IR. Having sympathised personally, if your feelings continue to sublimate into action, it seems that Flybe may find it rather difficult to crew and operate as many of their flights as they would like.
The intemperate language on here rarely seems to translate accurately into numbers taking action - eg the BA strike thread - it will be interesting to see how the summer goes, particularly in two to three months time.
Good luck.

[Ghengis Cant]

Very amusing Resurgam......Your talent is clearly wasted on the flight deck!

Many a true word said in jest.............

[ivor toolbox]

In connection with the base closure at BRS, interesting to note that Jim French did not even play lip service to his statutory obligation to notify/consult with any union before announcing closure.



And the latest on that, is, absurdly, that we have to serve out the 'consultation period' continuing after the base closes on 25th March,if we want to see any of our redundancy money

I smell BS too

ttfn

[W_18]

Rumour has it that the letter from flybe closing the BRS base will be sent to us this week and back dated to whatever date last week they choose.
If they are able to do this it suggests to me that the upper echelons of BALPA have been nobbled by either Monsieur FB or Honest Paddy.:mad:

[W_18]

:} Ghengis Cant Very amusing Resurgam......Your talent is clearly wasted on the flight deck!:D
Too rite m8,
Flite deck works betta without him:E :E :E :E :E :E :E
:ok: :ok:

[oldflyboy]

From the other side of the cockpit door, may I ask were any of you at the 'Welcome to Flybe' event at Exeter a week or so ago? It was, so my spies tell me very professional, everyone was very welcoming to the ex BACON folk attending, apart from one important person in cabin services?:=

No one is spilling who it was however, any ideas chaps??

[Beaver man]

Good grief!! Fancy meeting you here OFB!! You've just had a go at me for being an engineer on the Cabin Crew thread, and here you are on here. More to the point OFB, a slightly different angle to your other posts!! What's this, trying to be level-headed and having a chip on both shoulders!! Can I just say to all the ex-BAcon guys and Galls, flight deck, CC, ops etc, etc,...oh yes, and the scum of the earth, (that's the engineers, I know 'cos I are one), welcome to the company. Let's give it a good bash. There are difficult times ahead for ALL of us. But please, don't bring any preconceived malicious thoughts across! If you don't want to work for FLYBE then...don't, no doubt Richard B, MOL etc are waiting with bated breathes for your applications!! Hope to get to meet and have a beer or two with some of you in the near future...even OFB!

[oldflyboy]

Hallo Beaverman! How strange, just posted on the CC thread, moved over to look at this andhere you are. Please read my cc post, its spooky, over there I offer to buy you beer! First one's on you then?

[Beaver man]

Good for you OFB. I'll drink to that! My round...oops, lost my wallet "again"! Bloody engineers, short arms deep pockets!

[redflyer]

I was in Exeter today.

Being an ex bacon guy ( from midnight tonight ) It was welcoming to meet a flybe, and now fellow colleague, make an effort and come over and welcome me to flybe.

I didn't want to add to all the bitching before.

As that all seems to have finished, on this thread, and all those who said the deal would never have been done have gone silent, I am one of probably many who have sat back and watched It all happen without giving THEIR OWN PERSONNAL OPINION.

I for one will be a "flybe person" NOT "When I worked at BA connect person"

[bad bear]

Have the two seniority lists been merged yet ? What was the advice from the BALPA lawyers on how it should be done?

BB

[Smokie]

" I predict a Riot!"

[Modderator]

Well we now know.

The seniority lists will be merged by date of joining the individual company.

This means alot of BACON pilots go straight onto the 195.

I perdict a riot as well.

[AlphaCharlie]

I predict a riot? Nah not right now at any rate. But what I do smell is someone stirring the honeytruck.

No idea where you get your info from Modderator but its nothing like the info we are hearing from the company council. The seniority issue is still being negotiated.

[Hirsutesme]

Modderator. You are a liar. Please note no asterisks. Your information is wrong. meetings re seniority continue. Another is scheduled for thursday 29th March. Legal advice would preclude what you suggest has been decided.

[speedrestriction]

Would the moderators please consider preventing "Modderator" from making any further posts in the T&Cs forum.

The forums rules ask that we all behave in a professional and ethical manner when we make posts. For the past number of weeks all of the posts made by "Modderator" re. Flybe/BACON have been based on disinformation with the sole aim of stirring up trouble in what is an already difficult and stressful situation for many.

I understand that PPruNe and the moderators have to strike a balance between freedom of expression and censorship of harmful material. It seems to me that letting "Modderator" post complete drivel on the website serves only to devalue PPruNe. Just a thought.

sr

[flying jocks]

modderator,
whilst you are entitled to your views as much as anybody and you seem so sure of your information, I would ask that you effectively resign yourself from future postings on this forum if your 'source' subsequently proves unreliable! That's fair isn't it?
On the other hand you might be right on the seniority issue in which case everybody will owe you an apology!!

[Modderator]

Why are you so correct? I happen to have access to a lot of information that you sky monkeys don't. I know for a fact the seniority lists are being merged. Not my fault you don't like the situation. You bus drivers gossip from the start of a duty till the end of a duty, you think the more you talk up a situation the more chance it has of becoming reality.

Why you are so bothered about seniority lists is beyond me. The way I see it is,

a. The company will do what it has to do regardless of seniority lists.

b. You all love flying Dash 8's. So moving to the E-jet is not an issue.

c. It's not about money because you all want to live in the regions.

d. It's not about leave because the company will allocate it if it doesn't suit them.

The only possible reason is, it's something to gossip about during your 2 hour turnarounds in Norwich.

I promise you, the seniority lists do not mean a thing. Look at the top of the list and you will see senior Jockeys still flying around in a Dash8. The reason? The company cannot afford for them to go on the Jet. Jet drivers are easily available and nobody wants to fly a prop. Period.

[remoak]

Well, he's right about the props... :}

[AlphaCharlie]

Moderrator.

Well worked out - the seniority lists will be merged!! Don't think anyone ever expect a deal to be done whereby BACon company council agreed to have all their pilots placed at the bottom of the list.

But what you posted earlier was they were being merged by date of joining. Well DOJ will come into it, but no doubt in some complicated factored way with an equation to work out what each pilots DOJ is worth on the new list, so as not to massively disadvantage Flybe pilots.

Even the lady in the canteen knows they will merge!

[ajamieson]

what fun the summer schedule will provide.Good luck to all of you trying to make this circus run like an on time regional airline....
And a glance at the departures or arrivals board of any regional airport will tell you how things are going.

The vast majority of BE departures out of EDI were late yesterday, similar pattern at GLA and BHX.

[anotherspaceman]

It will just take a bit of time to settle down.

[flyingbug]

Modderator,

why do you say "period" at the end of you posts?
Are you currently experiencing one??

:eek:

[MVE]

I still refer you to the posts I made earlier, don't give this @rse any more credit than he deserves! ie none!!!!:ugh: :mad:

[brain fade]

A.Jamieson.

Your lot. aka the press, have totally missed the point with this deal.

BA have just punted about 1200 regional ground staff onto the unemployment register!

Most folk would judge that to be significant or newsworthy- I would!

There's been v. little in the papers.

DO YOUR JOB.

[Modderator]

Flying bug. Go and ask the street. Second thoughts you better not. Jumped up rich kids like yourself have a hard time with real life and you might just say the wrong thing.

You obviously don't like the situation with a merged list but that is the way it is. Accept it and get on with your job. Stop crying to mummy all the time.

Flybe are in a mess at the moment. We can only hope they come out the other side. What concerns me is that Air Lingus looked into purchasing Flybe and walked away rather quickly. I wonder why? Maybe if you put more effort into your job things might be slightly different.

[remoak]

ir Lingus looked into purchasing Flybe and walked away rather quickly.I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

flybe was never sale, and I'm sure JF would never have entertained it - nor would the trustees/shareholders.

(edited for clarity)

[ajamieson]

There's been v. little in the papers.
DO YOUR JOB.
WAKEY WAKEY, brain fade
We reported the threat of job losses back in November (Flybe deal threatens 350 Scottish BA jobs (http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1707722006)) and again in December (Salmond demands job assurances over BA sell-off (http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1902022006)). We were the only paper to give the actual announcement a full two-page spread (BA's air apparent must set higher standards (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=350532007), 6 March). The Herald also covered the issue of job losses on 6 March.
So you must either be registered blind or reading the wrong papers.

[anotherspaceman]

Alastair
Good coverage by you in Scotland obviously - hardly a ripple in Manchester or Birmingham press.

Your coverage covered your area (Scotland) and as you would expect, not much on job losses at Man or Brum

Brain fade was probably reflecting on the lack of more southern coverage - which was really quite poor

[ajamieson]

Yes, it seems indifference to The World Outside London is shared by London media as well as Willie Walsh :hmm:

[brain fade]

AJ

I have seen a small amount in the press but nothing like the amount it deserves.

1200 folk being laid off by BA merits much more attention than it has received.

BA have gotten away with their withdrawel from the regions with hardly anything in the papers or the other media.

THe 'sale' of BACON to Flybe was the cover under which this was done.

[flybe.com]

remoak - just to correct you there slightly, although I have my doubts about the Aer Lingus thing, please remember that the Walker family have been trying to sell the Company for a number of years, be it through a public flotation or some other means. Jim has always said that he'll take his money and run when that happens, although I can't see it happening for a little while now.

[remoak]

Yes I'm aware of that - I was cleaning out the old files last week and must have come across five different letters from BP and later JF, explaining why the float was off, yet again... I reckon that "float" rumour must qualify as an urban myth by now, it's been put on hold so many times!

I don't believe that sale would have been contemplated until the expansion was complete, though. A float, maybe, but not an outright sale.

But WTFDIK... :}

[flybe.com]

Indeed. What I find quite amusing is the number of people that have stayed with the Company solely on the basis of what they'll get from selling their allotted shares after a flotation! :{

[Sheikh Zabik]

So what is the deal on combining seniority lists then??

Agreed last week by the CCs and waiting for management "ratification"

Sounds like a hybrid solution based on date of joining.

Someone must know???

[Noiffsorbuts]

scarcely one week down the road........all our worst nightmares reality.

Chaotic operation, make-it-up as-you-go rostering, bully boy tactics to cajole and bully into working.

Latest desperate attempt to slow the pace of departure..........a letter from management tellng us that we now have to give up to four months notice of resignation.(previously three)

No contractual right to make such a change.........but, hey, why should the company bother with a small detail concerning whats lawful or not?

Totaly vile.

Good luck to all those still looking!

[tiggerific_69]

:D well done flyer guy,cheered me up after a long day!

[flyhigh2fly]

I have been working for a week now and is has been absolutely chaotic. You wouldnt imagine the disorganisation there is, a real shame!! We have known that Flybe were going to take over BACON for 5 months or more and not much has been done to organise a better transition.
I know its only been a week but come on people, we are all trying are best!

[bermudatriangle]

i am amazed that anyone could have believed that anything other than utter chaos,would follow this disastrous merger.roll on summer,then the real fun will begin.

[208]

the engineers are left in limbo too what have flybe been doing since NOVEMBER the CC rosters seem to be in chaos I flew to IOM with a CC member rostered to work 145 after she told crew control she was 146 qualified, they sent her anyway piss ups and brewerys spring to mind

[Anotherflapoperator]

I reckon one of the biggest problems is that they decided to change everything at one go. Had the management left the handling for a while, the ramp contracts, etc, perhaps it could have transitioned mor slowly and easier, then again, a clean break and time to fix it before the real summer starts is also a valid option, just more chaotic in the short term

The IOM is a depressing place right now. All the engineers bar the line have been put on gardening leave, the hanger is closed. Flight support are doing their best to prove just why Euromanx has been such a laughing stock these past few years...I've never seen so many elementary check-in errors in such a short time.

Manchester cancellations seem commonplace, and because it's Flight Support, pax get switched onto Euromanx flights in seconds-funny that.

The thing is, it will get better, new staff will get the hang of things and the errors should reduce as time goes on. Crew shortages will be the huge hurdle to jump though. That won't improve I suspect until the industry crashes in a couple of years.

All we can do is try not to let our tempers fray and try our best to get the job done in good spirit. Best wishes to us all.

[Bad Robot]

"I flew to IOM with a CC member rostered to work 145 after she told crew control she was 146 qualified, they sent her anyway piss ups and brewerys spring to mind"

I sincerely hope not! If this was the case and she was not qualified on type, then there are some serious Flight Safety implications here.:ugh:


BR.

[speedrestriction]

Bad Robot,

Depends on interpretation - was she operating or positioning to IOM?

sr

[The Little Prince]

As I remember, it took nearly 18 months to amalgamate the Loganair Fleets with Manx back in the early nineties, and this is several orders of magnitude greater.
You don't just press a switch you know!!:ugh:
Give it time and stop whinging for heaven's sake, if you have anything useful to contribute, then try doing just that, but destructive criticism is ridiculous and unhelpful, I thought we were past all that.:{

Of course......there's still the door and your feet are capable of voting...:E

[Anotherflapoperator]

Ah ,but...

The thing that's winding me up is that to all intents and purposes, our little route is fully crewed, has a stable route, one hull, good engineering and has really had very little change, except for the ground handling. I know change takes time, but checking in pax isn't rocket science and it isn't getting much better either.

Anyway, got back on time yesterday, so TGF small mercies, eh?

Still trying MY best to make it all work out fine though, there really isn't much other option anyway.

[Ghengis Cant]

According to Jim's friendly welcoming letter it will be all the fault of the remaining rashers if it goes T£tts up.

By the way, if we dont like it we can get out..........provided we now give as much as four months notice!!!! (previousley three)

Particularly gratifying to hear a rumour that Jim and his directors will be just fine if it all goes pear shaped. Apparently up to 18 million of the BA £100 million slush fund (the money FLYBE was paid to take BAcon) has been earmarked for Directer bonuses and pension contributions (youll never see it in the accounts though..........handy being part of a Jersey trust eh Jimlad??) . Couldnt possibly be true........could it.

Didnt someone do something rather similar with the MG Rover slush fund that the government gave them before the company went bust??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As an aside. When easyJet took over Go the transition took 6 months. We were all briefed on the project and the various stages were outlined online and in briefing packs. One month a few SOP's would change. The next would be new uniforms and crew ID's. Following that some more SOP changes and new manuals. The next month the Sim details were changed and postholders transitioned. The month after the aiport signage and livery were changed and the final SOP's were introduced.

You get the picture.

Slowly, carefully and pre-briefed.

At the time there was resentment that the 35 managers charged with the transition process were to share a £10m bonus IF it all happened on time and without major cockup. The main man being Ed Winter (ex-BA EOG and GO CEO) pocketing a million.

I think it was small change for implementing such a fraught and complex task. It was done well and the customers were basically unaware.

So it can be done. It can be done well. It has been done well on a bigger scale than Flybe.

Its just down to management.

Cheers

WWW

[Ghengis Cant]

In a word PROFESSIONALISM!

The one word that would be the last way of describing this utter shambles of these amateur bumpkins.

Hardly surprsing when you look at the experience (lack of) of some of the key players.

[Snigs]

Hmmm...

The seniority list is being merged, on a percentage position criteria from the original 2 lists.

So, I was half way up my previous Flybe seniority list, and I still am 50% the way up... but a lot more pilots are above me. There is an bid "aspirational freeze" for the Flybe pilots until the end of summer 2008.

In my circumstances it'll slow down my move from right to left seats. Unfortunately you can't please everyone all of the time. What do you think, am I pleased or not??? :rolleyes:

[anotherspaceman]

I would think you should be! Had it been done on DOJ you would have been stuffed.
I think it is pretty fair all round

[CheekyVisual]

Snigs don't panic and don't feel hard done by. Most of those extra pilots above you won't be on the list come October ! They haven't even removed those working their notice let alone the many more about to hand it in. Most EASY courses now are not until September !

Oh and by the way three calender months means just that. The new definition is totally illegal especially as no one has yet signed a Fly Be contract. Until that tme BA Connect contract is still valid and three months means just that. However, I suspect this has only been done to draw out those people sitting on their resignations for EASY courses in AUG / SEP. Lots of them !

And as for the latest letter of welcome from JF. All I can say is Goodbye ! Anyone who thinks BACON failed because of pilot's / Cabin Crew / Engineers T&Cs or attitude is a total prat ! (I think I can say that on here although I would like to be a bit ruder).

[arelix]

Funny how the Bacon BALPA website falls over at critical times,
Just been greeted with "Welcome to the Air 2000 Members Forum", No posts and you can't post either.
Probably just as well!!
Doh

[Blackcap]

It would seem that some people are affected, others can still get in to the old Bacon site. Take a look at the members list on the new (non working Air 2000) site - surprised to see a manager listed there. Perhaps it is as well it isn't working?