Windy weather causes flight chaos

[Skytrucker87]

Just had a call from Mrs Trux at STN. She tells me that there are loads of go-arounds due to the high winds. Apparently one OLearyAir made it but only just managed to stay on the black bit.

[WindSheer]

Have you not seen the wx outside??

GA's are going to be a common thing today my friend. Its happenin a lot at BRS today aswell, a/c unstable in the APP, GA'ing, holding and then landing safely!

Just heard that Cardiff is closed!! So a few GA's at STN is not that big a deal.
All the best..:ooh:

[ajamieson]

LPL as an alternate to STN? :\
EMERGENCY LANDING AFTER LOW FUEL FEARS
By Emma Gunby, PA
An easyJet plane travelling from Belfast to Stansted made an emergency landing today after running low on fuel.
The pilot contacted air traffic controllers and requested an unscheduled landing at Liverpool John Lennon Airport.
A spokeswoman for the airport said emergency services were put on standby and the plane landed safely at 11.40am.
All passengers were taken off the plane while a safety inspection was carried out.
The passengers are now being transferred to Stansted Airport via coach.
mfl

[FlapsOne]

And the press association ALWAYS get it right.....................don't they!!!

Emergency landing!!
Safety Inspection!!

........for apparently low fuel.......................Yeah!

(unless it was a leak perhaps).

[WHBM]

And the press association ALWAYS get it right.....................don't they
Well at least they couldn't say "narrowly missed a school", Liverpool approach being over water at both ends - bet they are really disappointed in the newsroom.

[adverse-bump]

i think you will find the lvp app for 27 goes over Hale, that has two primary schools!

Interesting story on the news about the divert, fire engines where waiting, one hit a car enroute killing the driver.

[Bearcat]

it gusted at one stage 74kts at EIDW.

Sporty!!

[slingsby]

EHAM, consistent +45/50 knts, occn +70knt gust
Flying baggage, rolling bag carts, wobbling catering trucks, moving aircraft for INS/IRS allignment problems, too much wind up the tailpipes, can't shut doors, yes I would agree rather sporting. I am one who is glad to be on the ground today

Parody of the film Twister,, "hey, we got baggage going past the window" So anyone with a small black softsided travel tow-along, with a red ribbon round the handle is missing their bag, it headed off towards the KLM cargo centre at around 1130 :-)

Even the birds have given up trying to fly, I wouldn't even start to guess the ground speed of the downwind pigeon......

[touch&go]

Very sad to hear about the fire engine crash at LPL, not a good day due to the Wx

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6275327.stm

[180 Too Fower]

Question, What "Gust Factor" do you heavy metal guys n girls add on to your approach speed? Vref + ? and half gust or something.

Just interested.

[DingleRoad]

Not surprised, Stansted:

EGSS 181320Z 26032G53KT 9999 BKN035 12/07 Q0985=
EGSS 181250Z 25032G46KT 9999 FEW024 SCT040 13/08 Q0984=
EGSS 181220Z 25032G47KT 9999 FEW012 SCT024 13/09 Q0983 RERA=
EGSS 181220Z 25032G47KT 9999 FEW012 SCT024 13/09 Q0983 RERA=

Luton:

EGGW 181320Z 26045G60KT 240V300 9999 FEW018 SCT033 11/07 Q0985=
EGGW 181250Z 26041G59KT 9999 SCT021 12/07 Q0985=
EGGW 181220Z 25034G51KT 9999 SCT020 11/09 Q0984=
EGGW 181220Z 25034G51KT 9999 SCT020 11/09 Q0984=

Liverpool isn't that calm either:

EGGP 181320Z 27049G64KT 9999 SCT040 11/03 Q0980=
EGGP 181250Z 26043G65KT 9999 SCT030 11/03 Q0978=
EGGP 181220Z 26039G53KT 9999 SCT030 12/02 Q0978=
EGGP 181220Z 26039G53KT 9999 SCT030 12/02 Q0978=


If you think that is bad, look at LBA ! All that plus an out of wind runway !!:yuk: :yuk:

[omnidirectional737]

Question, What "Gust Factor" do you heavy metal guys n girls add on to your approach speed? Vref + ? and half gust or something.

Just interested.


1/2 the headwind + all the gust in excess of the h/w max 20kts

[easy]

Can anyone here explain why Air France and KLM 737's were giving 160kts as their final approach speeds into CDG this morning, when we managed a mere 145kts i.e half headwind + all gust to a max 20kt increment (actuals 250/30 gusting 45)?:confused:

[180 Too Fower]

Thanks omnidirectional737

So example, 260/30 Gusting 50 you would Vref +15kts (Half H/W) + 20kts (Max 20 increment) makes Vref+35.....and so do keep that Approach Speed all the way to the Threshold?

[kite]

180 Too Fower

I don't think your example is quite correct. Judging by his name I think omni is refering to B737s. If so I think the max 20kts is over and above Vref only. So in your example the VApp would be limited to Vref +20.

I could be wrong though, I've been on the Bus for a couple of years now. Incidentally the Airbus has groundspeedmini, this is a black art which can only be devined by wizards and mages.

[Stan Woolley]

easy

Probably 800's(KLM 900's?) using F30 flying Vref +15kts.

[llondel]

As an SLF who flew out of STN yesterday afternoon and back today, I was watching the go-arounds with interest from the Ryanair gate area. It was interesting to see the differences in height that various aircraft gave up - one was quite close to the ground whereas others were much further back. It wasn't possible to see how far off-centre they were at decision point but it must have been very interesting at the sharp end. There were also some impressive puffs of smoke from tyres on occasion, I guess that's when things aren't quite square.

When I boarded my flight I did ask if they'd had a fun landing... Take-off was relatively smooth, I've had worse at Gatwick in much milder weather.

Anyway, hello to all, I've been lurking here for a year or two and finally got inspired to register and comment.

[390cruise]

llondel

Welcome

390cruise

[PGA]

And what do you do when its gusting? In my company there seems to be a little confusion as to how to go about gusts. I personally take gusts in to account. Windlimit for the aircaft 50 kts, wind reported as 270/40G55, I aint going. What about you guys?

[Dualbleed]

on x-wind limit in 737. gusts are always included.

[old-timer]

easy - leave on auto & keep all fingers (& toes) crossed ! :-)
(just kidding !)

[Kin888]

I like to give my admiration and congratulations to the crew of the Flybe Dash 8 which managed to land during those strong gale winds last Thursday whilst the BA Dash 8 all did go arounds during that period.

[FCS Explorer]

in general: please note that going around is not a sign of inability and that continuing an approach is not always a good idea. a lot of accidents happen, when people push the limits instead of going around and giving it a fresh try.
during stormy days, like the ones just experienced, it's sometimes just a matter of luck, to get some kind of "hole" in the wind and gusts at the right moment.

[lamina]

You weren't flying it were you?:O

[Thumperdown]

So, the BA Dash crews are all cowards! The captains on board had no b@lls. They have 4 times (on average) the time served on the aircraft type and 'chickened out'. They should have had a go because all the passengers and their relatives would still have had admiration (at the graveside) for them had it all gone wrong. The aircraft are different and are operated by different companies who also have different limitations. One af my flybe pals told me that in hindsight he was lucky, made a poor decision to continue and wished he had gone around. Generally, most pilots will do what they think is safe - not for the admiration or congratulations of a pratt!
Get a life

[the_hawk]

IMO no need for this post, Thumper:

Kin888 is either a non-knowing SLF with an all honest post up there, then FCS Explorer's post does the job already

or Kin888 and his post are an example of "the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions" - then all that's needed is to ignore his post

either way, your post is not useful (well again, that's IMHO)

[Bearcat]

Like a boxer, one is only as good as ones last landing.......

[llondel]

I like to give my admiration and congratulations to the crew of the Flybe Dash 8 which managed to land during those strong gale winds last Thursday whilst the BA Dash 8 all did go arounds during that period.



Sounds to me like they either got a lucky break with the weather, guessed right on how much to allow for or perhaps had less experience than the BA guys that know from that experience that being too close to the ground with unpredictable gusts is not safe.

I wonder what the tyres and landing gear thought of it all? Presumably it's good tyre-bursting weather with a nice high-speed sideways scrub and a heavy landing?

[boeingdream787]

Did 3 misses and a landing on a 738 into EGBB just a coupla days ago with winds showin cross for both runways 35 gustin 47kts.Now this was a delivery flight and i had nowhere to go....!! Rway was damp and very slippery.Think about that........Air India Express......hehehe.
Cheers matey.......
Sure needed a cold one........AND a dry set of pants for the good ol F.O..........:O

[Diver_Dave]

Sounds to me like they either got a lucky break with the weather
Exactly what happened at MAN.

We watched 6 GA's on the trot everything from TP's to 744's, wobbling
all over the place in time with the gusts. GA's initiated from various points in the approach.

For anyone who know's it we're the big office block on the right before the Pyramid so a good view from the 7th floor.

Then the PIA 777 followed by a BA TP straight in no wing rock at all.
1 minute later a Dragonair 74 GA's as does everything else IIRC for the next 10 min.

As SLF I'd rather a GA and be 20 min late than anything else.

Regards to all.

DaveA


{Edit: I seem to have lost the ability to type English} :ugh:

[V2+ A Little]

Kin888, stupid post mate! Sure hope you are not a pilot ....:ugh:

[Faire d'income]

A little info for the non-flyers. Most modern aircraft have a system which detects windsheer both as it occurs and in the area ahead of the aircraft.

A lot of companies have a mandatory go-around policy for a ' windsheer ' or ' windsheer ahead ' warning. With winds gusting into the 50s and 60s it is highly likely many aircraft will get such warnings.

Personally I disagree with the mandatory go-around policy. I landed in AMS while all the aircraft ahead went around due to w/s warnings. They probably had no discretion, I did and landed safely. BTW the wind was straight down the runway.

[Avman]

But you could argue that 'discretion' leaves a particular situation open to personal interpretation and possibly an accident waiting to happen? What use SOPs if they are subject to 'discretion'? Just a thought.

[Doors to Automatic]

There have been numerous crashes attributable to windsheer in the past.

Presumably the alarm only goes off above a certain level where proceeding could take the aircraft outside the capability of the pilot?

[Right Way Up]

Faire d'income.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.

[Faire d'income]

Faire d'income.
Can you clarify what discretion you have. I can understand discretion with windshear ahead caution, but cannot believe that you can ignore a red windshear warning. The windshear ahead caution can be ignored in my company if you believe it is false, however I would hardly believe you could argue that last week.

Sorry should have differentiated between the two. If you have a windsheer warning and obviously are experiencing windsheer then there is no discretion, not that I would want it.

The problem with last week of course is that because of the high gusts the predictive ' windsheer ahead ' could go off on every approach. No discretion could lead you into fuel problems.

Presumably the alarm only goes off above a certain level where proceeding could take the aircraft outside the capability of the pilot?

No. It merely warns you of the presence windsheer above a certain threshold which is actually quite low. +/-15 kts can set it off but wouldn't overly tax an experienced flyer. In theory an Airbus can still fly with greater than -50kts windsheer at Vr, not that I would like to be the one test the theory.

[G-LOST]

Well, at some stage you have to ignore the SOP or run out of fuel... On the day (into LHR) I briefed that we would continue to make approaches until X fuel remaining and at that stage we would have to disregard a windshear warning because the alternative didn't bear thinking about. And yes, we made the decision that diverting into the unknown was a waste of precious fuel because all the alternates were presenting the same conditions. Fortunately after a windshear GA and an hour of mod/sev turbulence, we got in. Not a fun day - thank God it was down the runway.:yuk:

[G-LOST]

Good question.
I kept the four sets of weather I collected that morning (as evidence). On paper things didn't look so bad, but experience told me at the time that it was going to be a very rough ride. In fact it was the turbulence and gusts at altitude, not near the ground, that made things really horrible. You can deduce these from the forecast, but it is not an exact science. Go/no go information generally relates to weather on or about the runway.
There is commercial pressure and it's a fine line factoring in commander's discretion when things are marginal. It's nice when things are clear cut one way or the other, but so often they aren't. My collection of paper reveals screeds of calculations, crosswind components for alternates, etc. The base line is that the wind was more or less down the runway at destination and alternates, and although there was the chance it would get very gusty, it was generally within the aircraft limits. The company leaves gusts up to the commanders discretion, because the manufacturer won't give a definitive answer on the subject. So you go, because you don't really have a valid reason not to. At least not until someone braves it and reports how bad things are and convinces the powers that be. When you join the airlines, being 'a bit nervy today' is not a good enough excuse, although it's a bloody good personal litmus test...

[Airbus Girl]

I'm always amazed at passengers responses when weather is bad.
I diverted from Faro once when the weather was crap, the aircraft ahead of us landed, but there was no way he could have possibly had the visual references legally required. Our passengers, once they'd discovered an aircraft had landed at Faro, proceeded to go on about how rubbish we, as a crew, were, because we didn't get in.
I later bumped into that Captain and he admitted he hadn't seen the runway at decision point, but "knew where he was, as he could see a glimpse of the sea to the side" so continued!
Now, I know which flight I would rather have been on as a passenger!

[Earthmover]

Airbus Girl, how very true. A colleague of mine, holding over an airport which was below minima in shallow fog got a handwritten note passed forward .. (a handwritten note for God's sake! ) .... from a "Company Director" whose "time was money" ... he "could see the runway perfectly plainly, so why are you fooling around up here?" !!!!:ugh: My colleague (who was the DFO at the time) sent his hat back with an invitation to put it on, proceed to the flight deck and swap seats with him. :D The response was a deafening silence.

But, conversely, I once delayed take-off for a big thunderstorm just off the upwind end, and a certain airline overtook me, took off - and got very publicly struck by lightning just after rotation. Quite a number of passengers on that side of the aircraft saw this very clearly and many told the Cabin Crew how glad they were that we had held off for a while.

[Dunhovrin]

Did anyone else find getting in to LHR a piece of easy yesterday? We pitched up with 2 hrs holding and PIK fuel only to do a 270 at OCK and into the pattern. The runway was white but wet and we still made the usual turn-off without max autobrakes. Explaining 30t to the gingerbeers was a tad embarrassing.

When I later flew home down the back we de-iced and had a head-count faff but still pushed only 1 hr late (cheers bmi). Meanwhile T1 was full of cancelled BA pax, hur hur. Old Louis Walsh's crowd must have done some pre-emptive damage control and just cancelled everything they could see on the plot.

Now, I admit I had been girding my loins ready to do some of that run away bravely stuff, but I just felt the met men were covering their @rses a tad and everyone bit, especially the schools. All those shots of kids sledging..you could see the grass fer gawds sake. Certainly the TV and the Times made it seem like the second coming, unless you live in Scotland where it was "Snow? I'll show ye snow, pal!".

Rant over, back to the bar...

[Golden Ticket]

The Media and the TV weather folks did seem to make the impending weather sound like second only to a meteor strike but I suppose they're damned if they do and if they don't.

[40KTSOFFOG]

Don't knock it.
Based at EGCC. Live in Shropshire.
We have had one hell of a dump of snow this afternoon at home but Man is O.K. Weather is like that!