Request for info on ferrying acft from US [Archive]

ConwayB

18th Jan 2007, 08:53

(this is a re-write of a previous post that didn’t seem to get submitted properly)

Hello one and all,

I would like to purchase an American aircraft, a light twin fixed wing, and ferry it back to Australia.

I contacted a company in Bankstown that specializes in ferrying aircraft (no prizes for guessing which) and enquired about doing some flight training there as well as paying for their advice so that I could ferry my own aircraft from the US.

Their response was: “Why would we want to give you our secrets? We need to make a buck too!” I replied with: “So I don’t end up in the drink!”

Even though their comment was said with some jocularity, I couldn’t help but detect a modicum of seriousness. Whilst I don’t begrudge their wish to ‘make a buck’, I think a bit of friendly advice from one aviator to another wouldn’t have gone astray.

Anyway, like a James Bond martini, I was shaken but not stirred… and so I decided to turn to my fellow aviators in the hope that some of you may have undertaken this same venture and would be more willing to offer advice.

I am not unfamiliar with long over water legs, I fly a single-engined EMS chopper in the Torres Strait and some of the over water legs are greater than an hour long and often dodging tropical storms, but I also know that there are many lessons to be learnt in aviation and so I seek your help/advice/tips/encouragement/gotchas/comments/etc.

I have found the ‘IFIM’ website by FAA and the ‘roundtheworlders’ website (dedicated to all those that have circumnavigated the globe in singles and multis) and I also have the CASA CAAP on importing aircraft. They’ve got great info… but I’m looking for more.

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers and safe flying,
Conway
www.ipas.com.au

lostpianoplayer

18th Jan 2007, 10:15

Conway, I'm in the same boat - or technically, aircraft. I have just purchased an IFR ice protected Aztec, in the US. I intend to operate it over there for a while - a year, maybe, to get ME and IFR rated, as well as getting some solid IFR practice - then fly it back myself, in this case, to NZ. I'm a 1500 hour VFR PPL, with quite a bit of mountain flying experience, but mountain flying ain't much use over the big blue, methinks. I'm afraid I can't help - yet - with much useful info on ferrying, although I wonder if you/we might get further asking Americans, rather than Aussies & kiwis. More people to ask, for a start. Might be some economies of scale available, depending on the aircraft you end up getting - ferry tanks, HF radios, emergency gear and so on. And contacts to share, etc. If you feel like it, email me - [email protected] - and we can swap notes. I'm going over to the US in a couple of weeks, and intend to start shaking some trees. I know some guys who've done it, who are all based in the USA. Prruners - all info welcome. Would be keen to find a sensible grown-up to come along on my flight...I imagine an over-grossed Aztec would still fly with two people? Hell, Conway, maybe we could study hard and train properly, plan it thoroughly, and co-pilot for each other? It's the toilet facilities that worry me the most - well, not really - maybe it's the small matter of SAR in the event of a survivable ditching. Oh, and a GPS-independent method of navigation. Not wildly confident that my pilotage would get me from California to Hawaii with quite the same precision that the old boys used to do it with, with sextants, ded reckoning and protractors. Clearly, an undertaking like this would require some serious planning and training, and would be unlikely to be cheaper than paying someone else to do it for you - still, it's not just the money, is it? Adventure and all that...:) Incidentally, I've imported several aircraft from the US, and have hitherto found that removing the wings and putting them in containers eliminates a lot of dramas - and a container only costs US$2200 or so, maybe $3K for a big one...

ConwayB

18th Jan 2007, 10:28

G'day Lost Piano Player,

Sounds good. I have sent you an email with some info.

I look forward to cooperating.

Conway

PS. I'm impressed you called it ded reckoning. Shows you know what you're talking about.

Air Ace

18th Jan 2007, 10:29

“So I don’t end up in the drink!”

They can help you with advice on that too!!! :} :} :}

Talk to your insurer - there used to be a significant extra premium for non experienced ferry pilots. You may find their premium for you to ferry an aircraft across the pond makes it an economic proposition to re-consider your friends at Bankstown! Also check out HF (and any other nav equipment you may need) hire and temporary installation costs as they used to charge an arm and a leg!

Southern Cross Aviation (http://www.southernx.com/) in California was Aussie owned, very reasonable and very experienced at aircraft ferry to Australia.

ForkTailedDrKiller

18th Jan 2007, 10:56

Oh, and a GPS-independent method of navigation

Excuse my ignorance, but why? Would not a TSO'd GPS with a spare hand-held or two + ADF do it?

If you are on track by GPS at PNR surely you will intercept NDB or radar coverage at the other end?

FTDK:cool:

tinpis

18th Jan 2007, 10:59

Friend....David Friend is the name....stirred but not shaken.:ok:

FlugWeasel

18th Jan 2007, 13:28

There was an article in Australian Flying in the last couple of years - cant remember exactly when. It was a personal account of a couple of guys doing their own ferry. I remember it covering a few clues about some of the problems etc.

Might be some help if you can track it down.

Grivation

18th Jan 2007, 20:09

While we're on the subject of ferrying - does anyone know how much is involved in removing the wings from a cessna single and packing in a container?

I was looking at a low houred 182 but wouldn't like to see it flying the pacific.

troppo

18th Jan 2007, 21:20

and a container only costs US$2200 or so, maybe $3K for a big one...
You may need to do a bit more homework on that...the ocean freight is only the start of a big shopping list of charges
Expect something like below
Dissassembly
Packing
Cartage
Export Entry (Customs)
Origin Charges (USA) e.g. ports terminal handling, forklift, wharfage
Insurance (Maritime)
Freight
CABAF
Documents - Carrier Bill of Lading
Documents - House Bill of Lading
Maritime Security
Destination Charges (AUS) e.g. terminal handling charges, forklift, wharfage
Delivery Order
Customs Clearance
MAF/Quartantine/AQIS
Cartage
Unpack
Reassembly

Deal with a professional logistics company so there are no hidden surprises with charges.

PM me if you need any more info re ocean freighting of aircraft

Bevan666

18th Jan 2007, 21:34

A few years back I saw an article written by a fellow who was moving to aus for a few years from the US and wanted to bring his Bonanza out here. He costed both the ferry, and the shipping and found them both around the same price. He chose the shipping option, as he decided that that was a good opportunity to get a really good inspection done on the airframe while it was disassembled.

Personally, I'd do the ferry thing. A once in a lifetime trip.

Bevan..

DeltaSix

18th Jan 2007, 22:07

Just a suggestion, why dont you just disassemble the thing, ship it in a container to Cairns, assemble it again and fly it from there.

Shipping it will be much cheaper, insurance wise, fuel and clearances.

Less headache too.... believe me.

Just my two cents worth.

D6

Thumbs up

18th Jan 2007, 22:43

If I was to Ferry an aircraft anywhere in the world then I'd be talking to Jim Hazelton.He'd arguably have more experience than anyone else on the planet in these sort of expeditions (cause thats what they are).
You can probably track him down through someone at Kempsy airport or maybe just in their phonebook.
GOOD LUCK!.
Thumbs.

J430

19th Jan 2007, 01:50

This might be of interest.

Andrew Meidecke is a former Touring Car racer (Nice Guy too) and now a successful MB dealer and other things no doubt in Port Macquarie.

Anyhow, he has a great story and is well logged and on the site below for anyone wanting to have a read. Great photo's as well.

http://www.ferry.miedecke.com.au/gallery.htm

Cheers
J:ok:

Contract Con

19th Jan 2007, 02:32

Gday,

Air ace is right re the insurance bit, check it out.

My 2 cents,

If it will fit in a container, thats where it belongs.

Have a look at how many went in the drink last year with experience ferry crew doin the job

CHeers,

Con:ok:

Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower

19th Jan 2007, 03:08

International Ferry is not rocket science, hire Jim Hazelton for the day, take your flight plan material with you, i'm sure that will give you pretty much all the knowledge you'll need.

1) ring Jeppesen in Canberra and buy a trip kit ( will give you all the IFR chart etc etc for the route )

2) contact an overflight permit company, they will organisae your airways clearances/visa's and hotels, taxi's etc etc.

3) Contact a flying school in the US, do a check ride or two with them.

4) down load copies of "General Declarations" and learn how to fill out a ICAO flight plan.

5) Hire/buy all the safety/oxygen equipment you need, you do not have to fly thousands of mile over the ocean, if its your aircraft, go the scenic route, its safer ( who really wants to sit in an aircraft for 20 hours, one patch of blue water looks pretty much the same as the next ( Helicopter Underwater Escape training {HUET} is a great investment ).

6) revise how to calculate PNR/ETP, have heaps of enroute alternate info.

You'll love it.

Air Ace

19th Jan 2007, 03:20

Jimmy Hazelton!! :D Now there's a blast from the past, one of the industries true pioneers and nature's gentleman!

It's great to know Jim is still with us - I won't hazard a guess at his age!!

Jim would have forgotten more about long distance ferry flights than most pilots learn in a life time!!

A word of caution about long distance ferry, particularly trans Pacific:

It's not life's great adventure, undertaken wearing rose coloured glasses. It's a deadly serious and exhausting game for professionals who meticulously plan, are continually re-assessing the odds and who have a tried and proven plan B (and possibly plan C) when plan A goes pear shape and gravity takes command.

Forestdump

19th Jan 2007, 04:13

PM me if you you wish. A good friend of mine flew a B-26 across the Pacific. Apparently for free.

rsull

19th Jan 2007, 05:54

I have done a few ferry trips for a company in the States.

PM me for more info :ok:

Brian Abraham

19th Jan 2007, 07:33

Louise Sacchi a pro ferry pilot who did a lot of international (read trans Atlantic and Pacific) ferrying of Barons, Bonanzas and other Beech products has a book "Ocean Flying" ISBN 0-8306-9436-6 which you may find a good primer for any preparation.

Big Nasty

19th Jan 2007, 10:40

Get a pro to do it please, its a lot of water and a lot of other things that the blokes that do this all the time know about !!! Enjoy your plane when it gets here
steve death is some one who comes to mind based in Albury

ConwayB

19th Jan 2007, 11:58

Hello one and all,

I have had a big day and thought I'd check to see if there are any any replies. A big thank you for all your advice.

My day was interesting; Medivac to a burning freighter off PNG and then another medivac of a patient from an island near PNG who expired in flight on the way back to hospital. Long over water legs in a single-engine helo with a paramedic desperately doing single-handed CPR in the back at 500' and pushing last light. (And to think I could have been an accountant working in an office.) The poor lady, it was her time. Even cruising as fast as was safe at MCP wasn't going to help. Alas, the circle of life continues...

I'm off to bed and will PM those who have offered assistance.

I am keen for the challenge and adventure of the ferry but will consider all options prior to making a firm decision. Maybe freighting is a better idea... just not as much of a challenge to my aviation skills. Once again, thanks to all.

Safe flying everyone,
Cheers
CB

jetstar21

19th Jan 2007, 12:52

Should you decide to ferry yourself, include a face mask and snorkel in your survival kit.

Hopefully, you won't need it but should you go into the water, the inside of the aircraft is like a washing machine and these will help you locate items you would like to take with you. Also, remember there will be fuel, oil and possibly hydraulic fluid in the water.

Get any of these in your eyes and now what are your chances of survival.

As regards to using containers, twins are definitely ferried as are the majority of singles and generally to a successful delivery. (particularly if carried out by Jim Hazelton).

Should you be interested in contacting him for advice or doing the job he is contactable on 0427438694

ABX

19th Jan 2007, 15:00

Big Nasty, (ConwayB & lostpianoplayer)

Get a pro to do it please, its a lot of water and a lot of other things that the blokes that do this all the time know about !!! Enjoy your plane when it gets here. Steve Death is some one who comes to mind based in Albury.

You are quite right, Steve has done some, with Jim too I suspect.

I don't know if he still does them, but he'd be a wealth of info. He operates Hazair here in Albury.

PM me if you want.:ok:

BTW: lostpiano, its a good thing you don't play the organ.:E

Cheers,

ABX

205jack

20th Jan 2007, 09:42

Your're right about Jim Hazelton being a blast from the past.Believe his son Jim jnr also had completed 200 ferry crossings before his 21st birthday some years ago. Someone else may be able to substantiate that. Great aviation family

gas-chamber

20th Jan 2007, 10:56

Conway, if you are capable of medevacs off burning freighters in a helo, and you have a bit of IFR twin time, go for it ! In this GPS enhanced age anyone with reasonable flying skills and common sense can do a trans-pac ferry. Do you think Francis Chichester, Kingsford Smith, Alcock & Brown etc etc had any better experience, or better equipment when they undertook their adventures?

If you plan it properly, your aircraft is airworthy, and you get Southern Cross in Camarillo to tank it, it is no big deal. Don't tank it yourself, but watch the process so you understand the plumbing intimately.

This advice is from one who once did it for a living, but back then we didn't have GPS so there were secrets we kept to ourselves to protect our income. That certain Sydney company that doesn't want to give away its secrets has no secrets although they are pretty good at ditching drills.

lostpianoplayer

20th Jan 2007, 10:59

Just want to echo Conway's thanks for the advice and so on. He and I are corresponding on this issue, and I'm sure we'll be sharing notes at some stage. A coupla minor clarifications, in response to questions/comments about my post:

FTDK - maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but I'd prefer to have a basic idea how to navigate more traditionally for the big blue. I mean, I know how to navigate, but this is a while different ball of wax. My concern re GPS is the zillionth of a percent chance of the GPS network going down, or, well, who knows - but I try never to trust electronics totally. Giving due respect to Murphy's law has kept me alive so far in my flying, and I thought I might try to keep it that way :) Re being on track at PNR and then keeping going till ADF range, well, yeah, I guess - I dunno what ADF range is, but I would have though it would be prudent to have some idea how to get close to where you're going using something a bit more precise than holding "last known accurate heading" for another 8 hours or so. You know, wind shifts, that sort of thing.

Troppo - yes, you're quite right, an awful lot of other charges on top of the basic shipping container. I was only making the point that the container itself is quite cheap, and that I believe it is likely to be cheaper to freight than fly, overall. I've imported quite a few machines to NZ, and have been thru the rigmarole, but appreciate the input, and may well pick your brains if I bring anything else over in a box.

Re the general consensus that it's safer to trust these things to the pros, well, yes, of course. Safer for US that is - not sure if it's safer for the pros, who would otherwise be sitting at home watching TV. An ill-planned PPL venture can be a very scary thing indeed - but I have come to believe that PPLs who plan carefully, get appropriate training and equipment, and adopt a professional attitude are quite capable of flying as well as the genuine pros. One thing that I think actually works in favour of PPLs is that we have the luxury of time - and sometimes budget - to do things properly, which to some degree makes up for the lack of SOPs, experience, etc. An analagous argument could be made that homebuilt aircraft are sometimes -although often not - built better for spamcans, and I am quite sure that this is the case. This being essentially a professional pilot's forum, I'm sure my POV is likely to be controversial. Hell, it's the professional pilot's rumour network - am I even ALLOWED here? :} No particular desire to enter into that debate again, but rest assured that some of us PPLs try very hard to fly with a 'pro' attitude, and even that dude who completed 1400 ferries before his 12th birthday, or whatever, must have started somewhere, right? Safest thing to do, of course, is not to fly at all in the first place, let alone over enormous oceans, but it's all about risk management, not risk elimination, right?

Myself, I'm totally into the adventure of the thing. I think it would be certainly cheaper and safer to put the Aztec in a big ole box - but I, for one, would love to see New Zealand come over the horizon, at least once, from the cockpit of my own aircraft, and am prepared to accept a higher level of risk, minimised as much as possible, to have that in my lifetime "memories list". My point re the container, and all that, was that I wasn't sure what Conway's motivations were, and if he was looking for a convenient, cheap way to import an aircraft, then self-flying it over the Pacific may not be the best option. I'm not sure if convenience, in particular, is at the top of his list - and it's certainly nowhere near the top of mine!

Thanks, again, for all your input.

dragchute

20th Jan 2007, 12:44

I don’t consider a well planned ferry flight imposes any more risk than crossing Australia, after all the aircraft doesn’t know it is over water. If it is mechanically sound it then falls back on the pilot to operate within the engine limitations.
Pre-departure flying should give you the opportunity to assess oil consumption and overall reliability of the vital systems.
The first leg is the most demanding – just under 2100 nautical miles so consider these points:

The aircraft will be ten or twenty per cent above MTOW therefore early long range cruise settings may be close to maximum cruise power, just to keep it on the step.
Performance calculation will require conservative extrapolation of the relevant charts provided by the manufacturer.
As weight reduces power may be reduced to improve range.
If you are still relying on ferry fuel at PNR any failure within the ferry system will reduce range to that contained in the wings. This may not keep your feet dry but may allow continued flight (east or west) to within range of a rescue helicopter.
Of course the ideal situation is an aircraft that will allow depletion of ferry fuel at PNR and the remaining wing fuel to meet destination fuel plus reserves.
A good ferry system is vital. As suggested by others scrutinise its installation so that you have a good understanding of the system, contingency plans should a ferry pump fail and general confidence in its reliability. Test it before departure.
A back-up hand pump will get you over the PNR hump should you suffer an electrical failure.
GPS is your primary source of navigation. Carry a spare hand-held should the aircraft installation fail. If both systems fail before PNR this may be a valid reason to turn back.
Evaluate the rated coverage of your destination NDB. A ten degree track error on the first leg may lead to a 350 mile track displacement at destination, potentially outside the rated coverage of the aid and requiring additional fuel and track miles. Based on failure of your GPS at PNR the track error would be approximately halved.
Stick to the major air routes and the contrails may help with track assessment and reassurance.

I won’t go into the safety equipment as you would know more about that than most people on the forum.
No special skills needed just fore-thought and planning. Don’t be reluctant to turn back before PNR if all systems are not operating to your satisfaction or winds impede your planning requirements.
Enjoy the flight and the sense of achievement at the end.

A310driver

20th Jan 2007, 12:45

Have made two trips to Australia in my Aztec from my eastern US base. Don't let 'em scare you out of it. Try it........ you'll luv it. PM me if you wish.

ForkTailedDrKiller

20th Jan 2007, 13:06

FTDK - maybe I'm being a little paranoid, but I'd prefer to have a basic idea how to navigate more traditionally for the big blue. I mean, I know how to navigate, but this is a while different ball of wax. My concern re GPS is the zillionth of a percent chance of the GPS network going down, or, well, who knows - but I try never to trust electronics totally. Giving due respect to Murphy's law has kept me alive so far in my flying, and I thought I might try to keep it that way :) Re being on track at PNR and then keeping going till ADF range, well, yeah, I guess - I dunno what ADF range is, but I would have though it would be prudent to have some idea how to get close to where you're going using something a bit more precise than holding "last known accurate heading" for another 8 hours or so. You know, wind shifts, that sort of thing.

lostpianoplayer

This is indeed an interesting question. If it were me, I would go the long way round. However, if I was going to fly the pacific, I would consider the risk of the GPS system ****ting itself to be among the least of my worries.

While in the US chasing up the Aztec, I would hunt down a reconditioned GNS430 (US$5-7k?)and have it upgraded to TSO145/146 (GNS430W) (US$1.5k). My understanding is the TSO145/146 units are approved for overwater navigation cause they have more sophisticated software that can eliminate a schonky satellite without shutting the whole system down - and at the very least will provide a dead reckoning position. I'd back that up with a couple of decent handhelds (GPSNAV496/396/296). The longest leg you have to fly is what, LA to Honolulu? say 2200 nm/15 hrs in the PA23? You should have WAAS for all of that leg.

I have flown with Garmin GNS430, GPSNAV296 and III Pilot for 2, 4, and 7 years, respectively.

The III Pilot dropped out not infrequently
The GPSNAV296 drops out occassionally
I have yet to see the GNS430 drop out
The GNS430W should rarely if ever drop out, particularly if you get a RAIMS forcast and don't fly without RAIMS.

I have seen up to C206 come out in a container, but have yet to see a twin crated.

FTDC:cool:

NW_Pilot

20th Jan 2007, 23:32

lostpianoplayer

This is indeed an interesting question. If it were me, I would go the long way round. However, if I was going to fly the pacific, I would consider the risk of the GPS system ****ting itself to be among the least of my worries.

While in the US chasing up the Aztec, I would hunt down a reconditioned GNS430 (US$5-7k?)and have it upgraded to TSO145/146 (GNS430W) (US$1.5k). My understanding is the TSO145/146 units are approved for overwater navigation cause they have more sophisticated software that can eliminate a schonky satellite without shutting the whole system down - and at the very least will provide a dead reckoning position. I'd back that up with a couple of decent handhelds (GPSNAV496/396/296). The longest leg you have to fly is what, LA to Honolulu? say 2200 nm/15 hrs in the PA23? You should have WAAS for all of that leg.

I have flown with Garmin GNS430, GPSNAV296 and III Pilot for 2, 4, and 7 years, respectively.

The III Pilot dropped out not infrequently
The GPSNAV296 drops out occassionally
I have yet to see the GNS430 drop out
The GNS430W should rarely if ever drop out, particularly if you get a RAIMS forcast and don't fly without RAIMS.

I have seen up to C206 come out in a container, but have yet to see a twin crated.

FTDC:cool:

For my back up units I use a Skymap III and to back that up I use a Garmin 396. For A Radio I use a Icom 706MKIIG and have a Icom VHF Hand Held And Have lots of Fresh Batteries for both!

Flying the ponds take a lot of planning and is done many time each year safely.

Http://www.ferrypilotservice.com

rsull

21st Jan 2007, 01:33

There is a lot to ferrying, prob a lot more than you think.
For example you will need a Crew Visa to pilot an aircraft to / from the USA.
Where is the aircraft registered, do you have the right licence?
Fuel supply and payment can be an issue.
Handeling agents or self handeling at airports.
Airports with PPR, some will detain you for as long as it takes to verify who you are if you dont notify them and so on.
Also, i had to do a Pac and an Atlantic crossing with another ferry pilot before i could get on my particular companies insurance.
The offer still stands though, PM me if you want.
I do agree with previous that you may be able to do it yourself but if you can afford it i would suggest hireing a ferry pilot that has done the trip before and bring him with you. There is no need to try and re invent the wheel, bringing someone with you that has done it before will be a world of knowledge and make it so much easier. especialy on where you can get a good hotel and cold beer :ok:

There seems to be a wealth of knowledge and a willingness to share from most in this forum, i suggest you do your homework and make the most of it.

Brian Abraham

21st Jan 2007, 05:04

In 1999 Ike Bartlett of Perth flew a Mustang II homebuild around the world. The notable point is he only had 250 hours on departure and as he had no instrument rating it was all VFR. Two friends many years ago set a round the world speed record in a Baron. Shortly after departure from Oz they lost all nav gear (before GPS) save for one ADF. With the destination being a dot in the Pacific and mindful of the Amelia Earhart story they held council (CRM before it became fashionable) and decided in light of the expenses incurred and the 18 months planning invested it was worth a shot. They made the entire trip on that one ADF and got the record. While the wisdom and legality of their decision can be debated they were willing to live (or die) with the consequences. Go with your heart and have a good trip.

Buck Rogers

21st Jan 2007, 09:32

Here is the export from the Us check list and open water ferry flights are not hard as long as you have fuel and weather on your side the aircraft does"nt know its over water.
I have more info if you dare .

EXPORT CHECKLIST

I. APPLICATION CFR21.327

1. __ Form 8130-1 submitted and properly filled out.
2. __ Check chain of ownership from registered owner to exporter.
3. __ Required Bill of Sale if registered owner and exporter are different.
4. __ Is signature of applicant an authorized representative?
5. __ Statement of conformity – Form 8130-9 for new product that has not been manufactured under a production certificate.

II. REQUIRED DOCUENTS

1. __ Must meet requirements for an Airworthiness Certificate. CFR 21.329(a) & (b)
2. __ Registration Certificate (Required for Special Flight Permit Only)
3. __ Flight Manual (Current – if required) CFR 21.327 (f)(8)
4. __ Weight & Balance / Equipment List – Current CRF 21.(f)(2)
5. __ Aircraft Maintenance Records as per CFR91.417 CFR 21.(f)(6)
6. __ Exporter requirements. CRF 21.335
a. Forward all maintenance records to importer.
b. Remove or cause to be removed any temporary installation.
c. Secure all foreign entry clearances.
d. Ensure Airworthiness & Registration certificates are returned.

III. ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS

1. __ Annual inspection within proceeding 30 days of application. CFR 21.329(c)
a. Annual inspection only required on export to used aircraft.
b. If engine or propeller, item must be new or newly overhauled. CFR 21.329(d)
2. __ Rotorcraft and transport aircraft must be weighed within preceding 12 months. CFR 21.327(f)(2)
3. __ Special requirements of importing country. CFR 21.329(f)
a. If first of a kind – additional information required.
4. __ Required paperwork for any modifications and alterations.
5. Do engine, aircraft, and propeller model / serial numbers –
a. Match aircraft records.
b. Match application
6. __ General condition of aircraft.
7. __ Conformance to type data sheet.
8. __ AD’s current and recorded. CFR 21.327(f)(4)
9. __ Issue Export Certificate.
10. __ Complete Export Number Assignment Card- Form 8050-72
11. __ If shipped-method of preservation, duration and packing. CFR 21.327(f)(7)

 If overweight ferry system installed, note on Export Certificate under “Exception”.
 On Australian export, note on “Exception” verification of compliance with Australian Air Navigation Order, Section 101.2 deferred until aircraft arrives in Australia.

Maintenance Requirements and Logbooks: The aircraft must have the Maintenance Records and Logbooks as specified in the DNAR Part 91, Section 91.417 (Adopted from FAR Part 91) and all required inspections, service life limits, etc., must be recorded.

ConwayB

21st Jan 2007, 10:09

Ladies and Gents,

Thanks for your input. I have been in touch with a number of very helpful individuals who have 'been there/done that'. For the most part, they have all said - "If you're planning and preparation are good... then go for it and ENJOY".

An interesting thing happened to me today; a request to go and pick up a premature baby and its mother from an outlying island about 1.4hrs over water. Flying through some very very bad weather and the GPS fails to read a single satellite all the way there! Not one! Fortunately, my back up GPS strapped to my thigh was working great guns.

When I landed, it picked up satellites.

On the return trip, it lost all satellites again and picked them up again once I landed. If I had not had my back up, then it would have been 'clock/map/ground' and ded reckoning. Not much fun in poor vis and no landmarks.

The problem? Rain on the perspex causes a static build up and the GPS antenna is on the inside of the perspex on the central pillar. In effect, the GPS was being shielded by a sheet of static electricity.

A good lesson in not relying on a sole item of equipment. Fortunately, Prior Planning Prevented Piss Poor Performance, and mother and son are doing well.

Please keep the advice coming. This is all good stuff.

Cheers and safe flying,
Conway

Bevan666

21st Jan 2007, 10:36

Here is what Cape Rianga looks like from 10k feet coming in from Norfolk Island..

http://www.bja.com.au/ext/images/DSC_4241.jpg

:)
Bevan..

lostpianoplayer

21st Jan 2007, 10:58

Yup, Bevan, that's the kind of view I'd like to see once in my life.

Thanks for all the kind offers of PMs and so on. Since I'm kinda piggybacking on Conways's thread, and he and I are corresponding, I won't double up on anyone just yet, but will save the thread so maybe I can follow up later, after exchanging notes with Conway.

One Q, though, for Buck Rogers. Do I understand you correctly that engines and props on transpac ferries must be new or newly overhauled? That certainly seems to be what you're saying. If so, seems a little counter intuitive, in that I was under impression most genuine engine failures (ie not fuel related) actually occur in first few hundred hours of service, and NOT on high time engines, which are well worn in and all that. I seem to recall a Lycoming comment to this effect, anyway. Would you mind clarifying?

Thanks for the encouragement, and warnings. Both are being taken on board.

bushy

21st Jan 2007, 12:02

Just to add a bit of spice to the discussion, and to add to your query.
When I first starting fllying for a living (decades ago) one of the aereoplanes we flew was a new 260hp cherokee six that had flown the pacific on its delivery flight.
At about 200hours total time it made a forced landing out bush, with a broken camshaft. I guess it flew the pacific with a faulty camshaft. Who knows?

ForkTailedDrKiller

21st Jan 2007, 12:32

gas-chamber

22nd Jan 2007, 00:14

I was always more nervous of freshly overhauled engines than those at about mid-life. My reasoning was that problems and unpleasant surprises often seem to show up in the 1st 200 hours or so, then once oil consumption and compressions remain steady, with no metal being produced in the filters, most engines will go full life if not mis-treated. An exception to this could be any engine - new or otherwise - that had been idle for months on end.
Before launching, you do need to do a long shakedown trip over land with engines at fairly high power for the 1st 2 hours (to simulate how long you will need to be at more than 75% to climb and cruise at a reasonable TAS while over gross weight) then a couple more hours at normal cruise. Do this after the tanks have been installed and put just a few gallons in each tank to test how low they will continue to feed. Do careful oil dips before and after and drop the fuel filters to clean out any crap from the tank installation. Whatever fuel consumption you achieve over this 4 hours is a good planning figure for the 15 hours it will take to make Hawaii - as the plane gets lighter it improves of course, but you need some "fat" in the planning. Don't count on anywhere near book TAS while at high weights. I never ferried an Aztec, but guess it would only average 150KTAS on such a trip, as everything else I ferried always seemed to come in 15 to 20 knots under the norm.
BTW, there is no requirement for engines to be overhauled prior to export, but it is obviously in your interest to have all the logbooks for when you come to apply for the new C of A.
Oh, and when you take off over gross weight, do so at sunrise, for two reasons: it is the coolest time of day so you just might achieve a positive rate of climb for a few thousand feet and if you do lose an engine in the 1st few hours you ARE going to crash or ditch, so you better have daylight before trying that stunt (remember to pop the door just before you hit). But unless you are a total pussy for risk, you should definitely do it.

lostpianoplayer

22nd Jan 2007, 05:59

Thanks gas-chamber - that's the answer I was trying to find out. Buck roger's review of regs included this:

"III. ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS

...

b. If engine or propeller, item must be new or newly overhauled. CFR 21.329(d)
"

...which really got me thinking. I agree re new engines v run in ones - which is why I was so surprised to read the reg above. I am trying to hunt down the reg in its initial context (I don't even know what a CFR is, sorry, or what country promulgates CFRs anyway. Spot the NZ PPL, huh :) ) to see what it's referring to.

This woulda meant, if nothing else, that I wasn't gonna fly the ditch in my 1000 SMOH engined Aztec.

Dunno about dangerous felines, but I'm pretty comfortable doing this, planned, trained and equipped appropriately. You guys have all been very helpful, and I'll be consulting the Greek chorus regularly before actually doing it, as I'm sure will Conway.

gas-chamber

22nd Jan 2007, 06:36

I believe the "if engine or propeller" refers to the situation where you are importing an engine or prop as a replacement item, not the situation where they are already fitted to the airframe in question. Must be some local rule that I have not come across, 'cos it is common enough for 2nd hand engines to come in to Oz and get bolted on to airframes. Provided the records are kosher, of course. Don't know nuthin about props, but, as it has been a few years since I had to deal with them.

jib

22nd Jan 2007, 09:01

ConwayB,
PM me if you need any other help, lots of advise above, some good, some bad (in my humble opinion). David Friend, Steve Death or Gary Mitchell are the men to contact for flying help and I can give you the numbers. Me if you need some advice and equipment and want to do it yourself. I think Jim H is having some time out at the moment but Gary and possibly David or Steve would be available. I've done about 40 crossings so can add a bit to what you have been told if you still need and or want it.
Cheers,
jib

Buck Rogers

23rd Jan 2007, 21:25

You have been getting some good info , But in regards to GPS going out ,well that may happen when one of your legs may go for 14 hours just hold your heading . the longest trip I have done in an Aerostar is Cocos island to Marisius with a couple of GPS no signals , and get use to flying overweight ! The going rate for a ferry from the Us to Oz is around 20K AUD
Good Luck..have a look at this website http://www.earthrounders.com/index.html

Ovation

24th Jan 2007, 14:22

There are ferrys from USA to OZ fairly regularly,and if you ask nicely you might be able to fly the aircraft yourself in company with one of their ferries. That way you'll log the hours and have a great adventure, and your insurer will view it more kindly.

I would start with Australian Air Ferry AKA Hazeltons. They can suggest who in the USA could fit out the aircraft with ferry tanks and hire/purchase survival equipment etc. They are nice folks to do business with if you decided to use theur services.

I would definitely avoid those people at Bankstown who have a reputation for water landings, and have litigation pending.

rhyllie

24th Jan 2007, 23:50

Don't recall if its been mentioned (and not re-reading all this again :) ) but another issue to look at is ferry insurance.

A lot of insurers demand a high level of practical ferry experience from pilots and their demands could also include oil systems, know ferry tanking contractors and the like. If their criteria isn't met, then no insurance offered or extremely high rates.

No expert here at all but just thought I'd pop that in. Could look into it further if you'd like but I'll give Jim H a plug too. Great guy.

bushy

25th Jan 2007, 00:20

Jim Hazelton was ferrying aircraft between Australia and USA before most of us started flying. Jim was using electronic navigation before any one had heard of it. He had a unit specially built in the US for his ferry flights. It used to give him a fix every 45 minutes or so, and was about the size of a beer carton..

The Hazelton organisation also had good engineering and design capabilities. He took my brother's Piper Pawnee, and made it into a "fat" pawnee, with side by side seating and dual controls.

There was also an occasion when one of their Cessna 310's had a problem getting the nosewheel down, so they got two vehicles, tied a rope between them and put one of them on each side of the runway. The 310 made a very low run along the runway and the two vehicles used the rope to pull the nosewheel into place. Sucessfully. True story. This was caught on film, and shown on TV.
The film is probably in the archives somewhere.

The Hazeltons are some of Australia's aviation greats.