ATC causing a stir in the Western Isles [Archive]

throw a dyce

17th Jan 2007, 21:36

Bit rich coming from a MSP.The only qualification they need is to have failed to be voted to Westminster,a Coonciler,or just a pompus windbag.
£463 million they wasted on that,never mind delayed flights at taxpayers expense.Maybe they should realise that it's a legal requirement for a fatigue break,they same way it's ok for MSP to only work:D half the:mad: year.
Apart from that I think Bollyrood is swell.:rolleyes:

Barnaby the Bear

17th Jan 2007, 22:07

I wonder what sort of questions would have been raised had an incident occured because SRATCOH was not adhered to? :ugh:

niknak

17th Jan 2007, 22:47

HIA were quoted on R4 and R5 today:

"the staff shortages have been caused because of ATCOs leaving the Company and retiring, and we haven't replaced them...."

Sounds like the Head Office Management regime have their finger on the pulse, one day they may even remember that they run other airports than Inverness.....:ugh:

M609

17th Jan 2007, 22:52

It's unfortunatly not the first time we have had to do this over here:

DU0005/07 NOTAMN
Q) ENOR/QFALC/IV/NBO/A/000/999/6903N01832E005
A) ENDU
B) 0701170700 C) 0701261430
D) SCHEDULE MON-FRI
E) AD CLSD 1000-1100 DUE LACK OF ATC PERSONELL
ATC MAY IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS ON VFR TFC 0700-1000 AND 1100-1430
DUE SINGLE PERSON OPERATIONS)
We are trying to cover 6 shifts a day with 5 guys, and it's a bit hard. (We have H24 due to a MIL exercise)
Similar notams pop up often at most regional airports in Norway nowadays. (And has for the last 1.5 years) It's even going to get worse.....

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

18th Jan 2007, 07:21

Many, many congrats to the operational ATCOs for standing their ground. It's high time staff shortages in ATC were headlined.

BDiONU

18th Jan 2007, 07:50

Many, many congrats to the operational ATCOs for standing their ground. It's high time staff shortages in ATC were headlined.
I did wonder if the time for that break was chosen for that reason. How many flights a day are there at Stornoway? ;)

BD

Data Dad

18th Jan 2007, 08:55

BDiONU - I believe the Notamed closures are planned around the scheduled movements (ie: when none are scheduled) but the flight in question was delayed and was then ready to depart during the closure period. I suspect that these "headlines" that appear from time to time are exacerbated by the flight crew who tell the passengers that "We can't go yet as ATC are having a tea-break" (and I quote that from personal experience) rather than "We can't go yet, this flight was delayed due to (X) and ATC are now temporarily not available due to the LEGAL requirements with regard to rest periods" :=

DD

michael reed

18th Jan 2007, 09:01

My first post, I hope my spilling is currect!!;)

Back on thread.
I'm sure it was a last resort, but what a good way of highlighting the issue.

Good on them for - a) standing their ground, and b) for making the news headlines.

In these days of 'customer focused PC nonsense', where we seem to just accept what gets thrown at us, its nice to see a little resistance for once.

Droopystop

18th Jan 2007, 12:15

Highland Director

18th Jan 2007, 13:40

Its about time something happened that shows up the standard of man management being displayed at HIAL at the moment.
One has to ask why have so many people left (not just ATCOs but also very experienced ops managers, fire fighters etc) in the last 20 months.
There are press hounds out there onto this and for once I hope they drag up all the dirt on this one.
Indeed.
HIAL management have been aware for months and months that SRATCOH closures at Stornoway were inevitable if nothing was done to address the staffing issues. I have sympathy for the Airlines and passengers who suffer disruption as a result, but I also have great empathy for the Stornoway staff who are now being asked to do the impossible. I suspect that they'll have pressure placed on them to bust SRATCOH regulations right,left and centre. Personally, I hope the lads up there adhere strictly to the regulations. Management should expect ATC staff to show a degree of flexibilty within reason but should not expect them to break the regulations. I doubt very much that Stornoway would risk flouting SRATCOH under normal circumstances, but it's probably even less likely in the present climate.

Lifes2good

18th Jan 2007, 17:31

How much longer must we continue to see threads about HIAL, radar, GA proposed restrictions, and now closures at ATC units?
Is it really that bad within the Highlands? Surely as has been said the powers that be are looking down on what is happening and asking questions?
Good luck to all within HIAL and hopefully some good may eventually come from all these posts.
With all the vacancies that are being advertised surely the management of HIAL must be getting worried that the unrest will cause further vacancies within the company?

Spitoon

18th Jan 2007, 17:45

From the BBC web site
John Levesley, spokesman for the Guild of Air Traffic Control Officers (Gatco), ........
On the Stornoway situation, he said: "If they are short of controllers up there with people retiring and resigning then they are having to introduce breaks to comply with the Civil Aviation Authority."Well, if it's an accurace quote, it's good to see such eloquence from a body that claims to represent us controllers!!!!

loubylou

18th Jan 2007, 18:59

Bollyrood!!!! Throw a Dyce - like it :D :D

louby

DirtyPierre

18th Jan 2007, 19:20

Excuse my ignorance of UK regulations, but why can't the RPT aircraft use Stornoway without ATC?

In OZ, RPT jet operations into either, tower operations out of hours, or into uncontrolled airfields, occurs at a number of places. For instance Ayers Rock is an uncontrolled airfield in central Oz used by Qantas 737s. We have Dash8s using airfields when the tower isn't open. This occurs at a number of outstation towers.

So do UK regulations prevent RPT aircraft into an airfield when the tower is unmanned? Or is it a company requirement, or a local authority requirement?

Spitoon

18th Jan 2007, 20:11

Excuse my ignorance of UK regulations, but why can't the RPT aircraft use Stornoway without ATC?
In OZ, RPT jet operations into either, tower operations out of hours, or into uncontrolled airfields, occurs at a number of places. For instance Ayers Rock is an uncontrolled airfield in central Oz used by Qantas 737s. We have Dash8s using airfields when the tower isn't open. This occurs at a number of outstation towers.
So do UK regulations prevent RPT aircraft into an airfield when the tower is unmanned? Or is it a company requirement, or a local authority requirement?Can't recall the exact words but it's in UK legislation that public transport flights have to have ATC.

NorthSouth

18th Jan 2007, 22:18

Can't recall the exact words but it's in UK legislation that public transport flights have to have ATC.Some of the Highlands & Islands airfields have an exemption which allows them to handle public transport flights with just an AFISO. There are also CAA-approved company-only (=Loganair) instrument procedures into those places.
NS

DirtyPierre

19th Jan 2007, 01:48

Thanks for that H D. It seems the authorities want the protection of an ATC service without actually paying for the service they want.

Keep fighting the good fight guys.

NorthSouth

19th Jan 2007, 08:17

The 'company-only (=Loganair) procedures' to which you refer were CAA-approved for use under FISO for Category A (air ambulance/SAR) use only.
I can only assume that the CAA-approval for the discrete procedures which were previously used by Loganair has been transfered to Gamma. To my knowledge, these procedures have never been available to public transport flights other than CAT A ambulance/SAR flights.The scheduled Saab 340/Twin Otter flights into Islay, Campbeltown, Barra and Tiree have never been VFR only. The instrument procedures are available to them too.
NS

Highland Director

19th Jan 2007, 09:44

Yep. I was talking bollards. Post removed.:O

mad_jock

19th Jan 2007, 13:11

I will start by saying that I fully understand why the guys are shutting. And the ATCO that has booked time off, you stick to your guns mate its not your problem.

The timing thing is getting mucked up due to the very strong head winds over the last few weeks which are upwards of 60knts. Which has been delaying alot of aircraft so arriving late so the rest period has unfortunately clashed with the outbound.

The Captain of Logie that morning is really not the type to make PA's slagging off SYY tower. It really isn't his style. And to be fair I think that the tower did say that they had to shut for a 30min teabreak due controller shortage.

I would also like to thank Benbecular Tower for keeping an eye on things and giving us a heads up if a short notice closure has occured.

The boys have been on the end of quite a bit of banter and taken it with good humour. It did make me smile when I heard Bristows had offered to send a packet of biscuits over to help out.

Lets just hope nobody goes ill.

flyingbricksh

19th Jan 2007, 15:19

with all this talk of controller shortages from HH to PO and PM perhaps it could be time for another pay rise to keep the staff they have got !

I see the RAF are even offering recruitment and retention bonus now to entice rtd ex mil types!

side-saddled

20th Jan 2007, 11:56

Best of look guys, I know how you feel.:ok:

I'm familiar with an airport that used to shut every two hours for a half hour break due to staffing for a while during a summer and there is always a pressure to break schratco.
They never got into the paper though so had to fight it out on their own!

Problem is that the CAA regard any time you are plugged in position, whether talking to aircraft or not, as being on duty and so you cannot say that because nothing happened for half an hour you've had a break.

A lot of pilots and management types often don't understand this fact and find it hard to accept that you're not actually being difficult for the sake of it, you're protecting your licence which is your major source of income.

Often the problem also occurs that when you shut and take your break, you come back to open up again the traffic situation you have to resolve can be very difficult and a lot worse than it would have been if you had broke schratco and continued working anyway.

Catch 22!

The only way it will ever be resolved is to get more controllers but staffing will always be an issue at some of the smaller airfields because the large airfields will always be able to pay more money and poach your staff.

parkfell

20th Jan 2007, 13:03

Just wait until the present numbers reduce due to sickness. Closure will be every two hours.
Dual validations would help resolve this - SRG need to approve suitable ATCOs.
AFIS operate at other HIAL airports for public transport flights - Islay,Tiree - so why not at Stornoway. Get the red tape sorted.:ugh:

Lon More

20th Jan 2007, 13:41

Back in nineteen canteen, the early morning Loganair inbound to Stornoway reported to FIS that he was starting his approach; the Met. observer phoned later to say he'd landed and close the flight plan.

BTW a/c type was Beech 18 IIRC (shows how long ago it was)

055166k

20th Jan 2007, 19:27

Scottish Independence will sort this out. A Scottish CAA may realise that relief breaks needed at places like EGLL/KK etc are rather draconian at quieter airfields. EGPO used to be done by two guys and EGPL by one.....and the pay reflected the hours very nicely thank you. I'm sure that a dispensation/compensation package could be arrived at by all parties....if there is a will to do it.

Lifes2good

20th Jan 2007, 19:35

Parkfell
Surely the FISO only units are using "discreet" procedures" belonging to Loganair themselves, I know this is changing but AFAIK hasn't fully changed yet. If dual validations were to be used HIAL would initiallyneed to have extra staff to spread them round their units whilst training. If all the latest posts on manning are correct I doubt if they have any extra staff to spread around. Or am I wrong? I'm sure someone from HIAL will put us in the picture. :ugh:

ecj

21st Jan 2007, 07:54

Discrete procedures do not "belong" to the airline.
They are "owned" by HIAL. CAA then approve certain operators to use them.
As to dual validations - should not this process have been in place before the present shortages occurred. What are SRGs views dual airfield validations?
Anyway strategic planning would appear to have failed.
Wait for the excuses to start.

Bear 555

24th Jan 2007, 20:41

I definately recall SYY tower being manned by a fireman offering AFISO to help cover ATC Holidays when I was there 20 years ago.
I'm sure everything was 'at your discression....'

Report@Boddam

24th Jan 2007, 22:27

055166k
Scottish Independence will sort this out. A Scottish CAA may realise that relief breaks needed at places like EGLL/KK etc are rather draconian at quieter airfields. EGPO used to be done by two guys and EGPL by one.....and the pay reflected the hours very nicely thank you. I'm sure that a dispensation/compensation package could be arrived at by all parties....if there is a will to do it.:ugh:

Just because EGPO might not have the movements that you demi gods at NERC (or whatever its called this week) handle what gives you the right to suggest that the ATCO doesn't require a break. How do you know that he/she is not the only person on that day, and how long at the desk should they do before a break.

The guys up there are working hard to cope with what is an extremely difficult situation and I'm sure your comments are really welcome. :=

niknak

24th Jan 2007, 23:42

Parkfell - you clearly have no idea of air traffic control, aviation in general or the type of operation which currently prevails at Stornoway.
Not only schedule airline services but regular charter traffic, all of whom operate IFR but they are all entitled to a full ATC service.

The HIAL airfields which operate FISO only are those which only ever have one IFR movement at any one time, these are the same airfields which company procedures for the airline which are approved by the CAA, which is why, under these specified circumstances.
At other airports which normally have full ATC during the day, FISOs operate after ATC closes, but for emergencies only.

Duel validations are dangerous - as has been clearly demonstarted in the past when an ATCO with such an endorsement mistakenly cleared an aircraft for a procedure, which although valid at his own airfield, put a scheduled aircraft operaing IFR through an active danger area at the other.

You're not a HIAL Senior Manager are you?:rolleyes:

chevvron

25th Jan 2007, 06:28

In the past, SRG have discouraged dual validations, but as far as I know there's nothing in the book to say they're illegal.

London Mil

25th Jan 2007, 07:10

I'm with 055166k, give the Scots independence. They already have a unique interpretation of some of the rules. ;)

Lifes2good

25th Jan 2007, 09:30

I think niknak has made a very good point, as traffic levels have increased dual validations become more difficult to maintain, for the controller and probably for the rostering of either unit that the controller is working at!
FISO is used for Ambulance and Emergency callouts within HIAL.
In the past I can remember controllers being used at Airfields such as Tiree and Islay(Dual validations in some cases or ATCO/manager). As niknak rightly says they have been replaced at quieter units over the years. If SCRATCOH is to be applied correctly, imagine how many controllers would be needed to run these units if FISO did not provide the on-call requirement? How many controllers would be willing to work at the FISO only units when there is limited traffic?
Don't think Parkfell can be a Senior Manager niknak as if some posts are correct are there any left?

PPRuNe Radar

25th Jan 2007, 10:16

I'm with 055166k, give the Scots independence. They already have a unique interpretation of some of the rules.

Would a Mil Controller recognise a rule even if it bit him ?? :):p ;)

London Mil

25th Jan 2007, 11:59

Would a Mil Controller recognise a rule even if it bit him ?? :):p ;)

yes, but no, but yes, but..............

At least we know what a RAS is. :}

AyrTC

25th Jan 2007, 12:12

Of course we could always go back to the old pre SCRATCOH days when as an ATCO I spent 30 out of 32 hours physically at the airfield ( good money bad home life ):zzz: I suppose the o/t made up for the 10p per hour on call rate.:ok:

AyrTC

Lifes2good

25th Jan 2007, 12:24

AYR TC now you are showing your age?
Probably about a fiver now?

surfingatco

25th Jan 2007, 17:15

BTW a/c type was Beech 18 IIRC (shows how long ago it was)
That was probably GASUG, which is now at The Museum of Flight at East Fortune. It made me feel my age when visiting East Fortune for the first time last October. Most of the exhibits were flying when I was an "enthusiast" at Turnhouse on the late 60s/70s, eg. GARCX, the Ferranti Meteor!

parkfell

25th Jan 2007, 21:53

Niknak may be interested to know that I know Stornoway quite well, and operate into it on a regular basis - sometimes twice daily in a Saab.
As to ATCO/FISO matters, I have held both UK licences in the past.
You are right in saying FISO could only handle one IFR aircraft at a time. The west coast sector would have to provide a quasi approach function.
The point is that some movement would be better than no movement even if it was one at a time until the manning levels can be restored.
Stornoway find themselves in this pickle due to poor planning.
As to active danger areas - ATCOs make mistakes like everybody else.;)

Eric T Cartman

26th Jan 2007, 21:28

@ Lifes2Good
Yep, I used to have dual validations for Glasgow & Tiree - happy days for me but expensive for the CAA !
@ Ayr TC - only 30 out of 32 hours ? Lightweight stuff, old boy - the Longside loon (now @ EGPE) & I did 336 hours out of 336 continuously on site every month in the 80's (mind you, that was in the East Shetland Basin on oil production platforms - but we still had APC validations!) LOL
:ok:

watchingbrief2000

13th Feb 2007, 21:18

How will the takeover of Dundee airport by HIAL affect aviation in Scotland?

NorthSouth

13th Feb 2007, 23:05

which "takeover of Dundee airport by HIAL" would that be?

blind and leading spring to mind

NS

Sudden Stop

14th Feb 2007, 06:37

This one:

''Transfer of Dundee Airport to HIAL
12 February 2007

It has been agreed between the Scottish Executive, Dundee City Council and HIAL that HIAL will assume operational responsibility for Dundee Airport in September of this year.
HIAL is working with the Scottish Executive and the city council to ensure a smooth transition of the operation with the target date for transfer being 1st September 2007.
HIAL's priorities for Dundee will be the safe and efficient operation of the airport while pursuing any air route development opportunities that may exist.''

NorthSouth

14th Feb 2007, 17:36

That'll make HIAL easier to run then:confused:
Wonder how long it'll be before we get "HIAL - formerly known as Highlands & Islands Airports Ltd".
NS

Droopystop

17th Feb 2007, 19:22

For those that are interested a friend brought this to my attention
PRESS STATEMENT:
MACNEIL CALLS ON TRANSPORT MINISTER TO INTERVENE AT HIAL

Na h-Eileanan an Iar SNP MP Angus MacNeil, has written to the Transport Minister, Tavish Scott MSP, asking him to intervene and investigate what is happening within the Scottish Executive funded company Highlands and Islands Airports Limited. Mr MacNeil has compared the present situation at HIAL with the situation at the Western Isles NHS Board 12 months ago. Staff morale at the company is low, with a number of personnel leaving during the past year.

Mr MacNeil said “Over the past few weeks it has become evident that there are difficulties within HIAL. There is a situation at Stornoway Airport, where a shortage of fully trained Air Traffic Controllers is affecting flight departures, and now reducing the Airport’s opening times. Management should never have allowed this to arise and from all the noises I am hearing from within HIAL, both on the islands and the mainland this is an outward sign of inward turmoil.

“We have to remember that the job of an Air Traffic Controller is not the same as a Driver or a Member of Parliament - it takes 3 months of validation to become a fully trained Air Traffic Controller. Therefore, it is of huge importance to find out how this shortage of staff came about, and to ensure that the management does not let it happen again.

“Over and above the Stornoway situation there have been major management changes at HIAL HQ in Inverness, and I am also hearing of disquiet at other airports.

He added “It took about six months of asking last year before the Health Minister; Andy Kerr listened and looked into the problems at the Health Board. I am now asking the Transport Minister Tavish Scott MSP, to intervene and find out what is happening at the public owned company. A good Government will react quickly to the slightest hint of a problem.”

:D :D :D
We have heard so much about the dire goings on within HIAL, could this be what is needed?

The Family Ness

16th Apr 2007, 16:37

The long running ATCO staffing problem at Stornoway has not been resolved

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/6560381.stm

:(

ecj

17th Apr 2007, 06:59

A little local difficulty yesterday Monday 16 April.

Due ATCO sickness the airport closed early afternoon. Scheduled flights cancelled. Local MP will be jumping up and down.

Other HIAL airports use FISO for schedules - why cannot Stornoway?

Further details in the Stornoway Gazette [on line]

:{ :confused: :ugh:

Dances with Boffins

17th Apr 2007, 13:04

Barra anyone?

VectorLine

18th Apr 2007, 15:30

HIAL nailing their colours firmly to the mast with this:
"Our priority is, of course, to avoid disruption to scheduled air services and passengers travelling on these, although short delays may be unavoidable due to operational circumstances."
While the rest of the ATC world put safety as priotity, HIAL go for minimum disruption.
would that be an expeditous, orderly and safe flow of air traffic then?