MANSTON - 4

[MDIS]

This is a quote from Infratil's web site on the Manston FAQ's. I think this was posted when they first took over but interesting even then they were quoting losses for 3-4 years

"What are the short term financial prospects for KIA?

Because of KIA's administration, it has no current freight or passenger business. It will take some time for these markets to be developed. Infratil has a long term view on KIA and is prepared to absorb operating losses for 3 to 4 years."

http://www.infratil.com/kent_international_airport_faqs.htm#q6

MDIS

[EGMH]

Infratil's December report for KIA-M..
Kent International handled 3,052 tonnes of freight during December - yet another record month for the airport since acquisition, and the first time the 3,000 tonne barrier has been broken in a single month. December is traditionally a very strong month for fresh produce exports, but the 2006 volume is more than double the December 2005 volume of 1,428 tonnes.
Brockmans, a Kent-based travel agent, announced during the month that they will be based on-site at Kent International
in 2007. Brockmans will be selling Kent Escapes and Cosmos holidays and flights from Kent International, while also providing a complete service as they do at other branches.

[Evileyes]

We are going to have one more shot at having an adult discussion of Manston. If the normal suspects start their childish sniping yet again they will be banned from this forum. Last warning.

On this thread, more than any other it seems, obeying this simple rule may be the only means of thread survival: If you use another posters name within your post it is highly likely that you are either sniping or making a full-on personal attack.

Cheers,
The Mods

[deedave]

Had a look at the "Sheffield City Airport" thread today. I have little knowledge of this airport, but the thread suggests a few interesting similarities to MSE.

Sheffield appears to have a declared close-by urban catchment of around 1.5 million people. MSE similar figure, although not so geographically close.

Sheffield reckoned to suffer from being too close to an established international facility - MSE likewise.

Both airports doggedly supported by the local authority.

Both on approx 10 - year deadline.

Also, Sheffield reckoned to be eventually destroyed by the arrival of a relative newcomer (Robin Hood)... MSE may well suffer the same fate at the hands of Lydd.

[Evileyes]

And in less than an hour we have our first volunteer. His post has been deleted and he will not be returning.

Perhaps we can get back to discussion now?

[Hangar_9]

Yes. Straight away before it gets any worse.

[foamer]

OK back to discussion -

Had lots of reinvestment in the RFFS from Infratil recently with Watches being
re-established to provide ICAO category 6 12hrs daily 365 a year.

The Watches are aimed at supplying ICAO 8 from May to October if all goes well from Cosmos. After that we would be able to provide ICAO 7 at all operating times.

Those in the business will realise what permanent 7 means to most low cost operators. I.E. we are ready now :ok:

[Dont tell um pike]

Sheffield to Doncaster 21m
Sheffield to Manch 40m
Manston to Gatwick 81m
Manston to Stansted 96m
Manston runway 2752m
Sheffield runway 1200 m
Would you like me to go on ?
Discussion = good :)
Making stuff up = Bad :=
P.s not sheffield bashing BTW , hope it all works out ok in the end guys and gals

[undiemole]

If Manston are serious about attracting more freight operators, they will have to invest in better and larger freight handling facilities/handling aids, at present they can just about build a DC8 load in the BIP without it being maxed out.

At present the hi-loader is "fed" with pallets by a large forklift with a roller slave pallet fitted which is not ideal.

[Andy_S]

Sheffield to Doncaster 21m

Sheffield was first opened several years before the former RAF Finningley became a commercial airport, so this figure isn't really relevant.
However, I have to agree. Sheffield is hardly comparable to MSE. By rights, it should have worked, with a huge urban population within 30-45 minutes drive. But as you say, runway length was always going to be a constraint. And I believe there were always question marks about the owners commitment? Sheffield had effectively failed as a civil airport long before Doncaster/Sheffield opened for business.

[blazing_air]

Undiemole
I hear what you are saying, but it is the very fact that this operation provides a fst turn-around for MK & Egypt as to why it's so succesful.
Granted in an ideal world, it would loaded off onto dollies then onto a roller bed system to feed the trucks.
But Manston isnt set up like that yet, so the fork lift truck and slave pallet rule at the moment all the time it gives a fast offload.
I do agree that on the freight side, space is paramount, once a 747 build has been completed, there is hardly room to sneeze in there.
But i did see the surveyors on Echo the other day looking at putting more concrete down i hear, and negotiations still ongoing to get Hangar 3 back for freight builds.

[undiemole]

Thanks for that, what is hanger 3 being used for at mo ? although that in itself would not be a great improvement.

Problem with slave plt on large forks is that load on the pallet can move when being transferred(shunted) from docking and also when loaded onto hiloader, which is not ideal.

[blazing_air]

It's being used by Air Atlanta for storage..

[deedave]

Sheffield cf MSE.

Yes LGW is 81 miles from MSE. However, Manston's declared catchment population do not all live on the airfield, they live throughout Kent and beyond, almost all of them to the west, so that mileage is immaterial.
The London airports definitely impact on KIA catchment.(I should know. I use LHR all the time.)
According to the Sheffield thread, Manchester impacted on them in a similar way.

The runway length is different, but as long as it can launch a servicable passenger jet, the average punter doesn't care. (Some members of my family did use this airport, and declared it perfectly OK)

I have no doubt the differences outweigh the similarities, but the similarities may be of interest to future aviation historians. Perhap if only beacause it could be said of both airports (to quote Andy)-

"By rights, it should have worked".

[Hangar_9]

When was the last time Air atlanta visited MSE anyway.
What benfits is expanding echo bringing. is that the pax bit?

[MDIS]

This all sounds like positive news.
Was this part of the ongoing investment Infratil have been talking about?

I had heard that there was an operational issue holding back the development. Is this it or are there others?

MDIS

[blazing_air]

Air Atlanta have been at MSE for many years now, albeit in different forms and with different aircraft.
They mainly use it for 747 refurbs and maintenance.
Echo Apron is looking to be expanded to allow more freight aircraft to be handled.
At present it is only possible to handle 2 at a time on the apron.

[onion]

Deedave one problem Sheffield had to start with was that single engined aircraft were not allowed to operate into there. This significantly reduced the amount of revenue they could recieve. Another problem was/is that Sheffield has a small runway, this means only small aircraft much like those that operate in to LCY can use the place. This coupled with the fact that Sheffield is towards the center of the country meant that there were already good surface transport links to the city to the ret of the country before you take into account any airports close by. The whole venture was a cock up all for a few extra hundred feet of runway. Manston on the otherhand has got a good length of runway and so there is always going to be the chance that a low cost will come in and make a go of things. Manston may have problems with catchment overlaps with the London airports but at least the infastructure at Manston is capable of supporting what the public wants. Sheffield was never allowed to.

[Andy_S]

I think that's a fair assesment Onion. There's an interesting article on Wikipedia about Sheffield Airport, which basically concludes that they planned it wrong from the very beginning. At just 1,200M the runway is even shorter than Southampton. I'm not sure if any regional jets could be accomodated on a runway that length, but 737 / 320 sized aircraft were certainly a non starter, so the holiday charter and lo-co scheduled market, for which there must be an enormous demand in that area, didn't get a look in. What a waste.

The viability of passenger operations out of Manston has yet to be proven, but as you say, at least the infrastructure is there.

[deedave]

Seems a shame.

As you know, EUjet were operating F100's - capacity 108- at MSE.

Were EGSY unable to take aircraft of this capacity?

PS - The reason I ask is that my family stated that the Sheffield a/c they were on was of reasonable "holiday" size, but was worryingly empty (similar to many MSE experiences).

[GW76]

.
The viability of passenger operations out of Manston has yet to be proven.
Is it.....? I think the EU jet fiasco has given it the thumbs down if pax numbers were anything to go by.

[Hangar_9]

Echo Apron is looking to be expanded to allow more freight aircraft to be handled.
At present it is only possible to handle 2 at a time on the apron.

I thought bravo apron (pax terminal) was also currently closed due to surface works?

Is Radar Back online? :ugh:

If they are expanding the echo apron surely this means several parties are interested and Infratil are having to creat more space? :rolleyes:

[blazing_air]

Bravo is closed for surface repairs (approx 5 weeks)
Radar should be back online within a couple of weeks
It is my understanding that they are in serious talks with more freight operators, which is why more surface area on the echo apron is needed.
Don't ask me for names, cos i can't give them.

GW76
Please don't start the EUJet debate again, weve had it to death on this thread.

[Hangar_9]

Dont talk anymore about EUJET. I watched as a guest at how bad this topic became when it was in full swing, some very mixed views, some totally pessimistic, some very optimistic.

The one thing that isnt talked about is freight movements. The one thing manstn currently has and we ignore it.

An old question but......
> how many flights a week were MK operating before calling it quits in 2004?

P.S - The BMED Deal fell through becasue the buyers have no interest in cargo flights from MSE.

[deedave]

blaze-

re- your comments toGW76

The mods have asked us to steer clear of postings carrying "implied ownership" of the thread.

Might be wise to edit, then I'll delete this posting.

[fj1]

[QUOTE=deedave;3076195]Seems a shame.

As you know, EUjet were operating F100's - capacity 108- at MSE.

Were EGSY unable to take aircraft of this capacity?

basically yes, largest aircraft type would be a ATR/F50 (50pax).
Its about 200M shorter then lydd.

[Hangar_9]

Deedave

I think this is one thing everybody agrees on though.
Implied ownershi doesnt play apart if everybody is sick and tired of the old EUJET debate.

[deedave]

Sure, I'm sick of EUjet, but I don't know about anybody else.

What do you think mods?

[MDIS]

If we all agree that that part of the history should be ignored unless absolutely necessary for reference purposes only then no one can be accused of "implied ownership" or "steering" the thread in any one direction

If we can all agree to this the mods will I hope be happy.

MDIS

[Hangar_9]

Far too many rows have erupted over the individual topic.

Would somebody be able to list exactly what Pax Flights will be departng MSE in 2007 (date etc)
Would be very helpful?:rolleyes:

[deedave]

Thie evening, we seem to be bringing our widely differing views to this forum considerately, politely, and intelligently.
We also appear to have self-moderated ourselves through a point of order.

I think the removal of certain contributors has helped.

At the risk of being creepy, do I speak for all of us when I say three cheers for the mods?

[blazing_air]

Sorry - didn't mean for anyone to take offense or take ownership of anything, just didnt the thread going back to where it was.
(humbly bowing down to the mods)

[Hangar_9]

Thie evening, we seem to be bringing our widely differing views to this forum considerately, politely, and intelligently.
We also appear to have self-moderated ourselves through a point of order.

I think the removal of certain contributors has helped.

At the risk of being creepy, do I speak for all of us when I say three cheers for the mods?

so easy for them to come back though and be disguised.
back on topic...

has anyone answered my question?:rolleyes:

[EGMH]

Kent Escapes:
Faro 3/5/07 till 18/10/07
Palma 4/5/07 till 19/10/07
Alicante 6/5/07 till 21/10/07
All weekly

Cosmos
Norfolk, Virginia 3/5/07 for 26 weeks

Newmarket holidays
3 charters. Dates 13/5/07, 24/6/07, 30/9/07

[deedave]

Yes, Hangar 9, but when they change identity, they also appear to change their behaviour, and I'm sure this will suffice.

I'm sure any re-offending will result in another ban.

Personally, I am always deedave (I wanted to be dave dee but I messed up the log in)

[Hangar_9]

DEEDAVE

There are 140,000 members on here :ok: take your pick lol.

EGMH,
Do you know what A/C will be flying the kent escapes programme?

[MDIS]

So is it dozy, beaky mick and titch that are missing?? (Showing my age!!)

Saw a couple of BAA Gatwick vehicles leaving the airport today full of suits and Hi vis jackets.

Also some sort of filming going on at check in.

Don't know what either was about. Anyone any ideas.

MDIS

[Hangar_9]

Maybe BAA going to take over the airfield :ooh:

[MDIS]

LTE flew the route last year.

Astraus were talked about for this year which is now not happening.

I think LTE are still in the frame but no one seems to know for definite.

MDIS

[EGMH]

Astraeus B-737 on the Kent Escapes program.
AEU 543/544 Thr
AEU 577/578 Fri
AEU 573/574 Sat

Monarch B-767 on Cosmos.
Probably a B-737 of an unknown airline for the Newmarket hols.

[Hangar_9]

Air atlanta mentioned on the kent escapes website?

[Hangar_9]

OK back to discussion -

Had lots of reinvestment in the RFFS from Infratil recently with Watches being
re-established to provide ICAO category 6 12hrs daily 365 a year.

The Watches are aimed at supplying ICAO 8 from May to October if all goes well from Cosmos. After that we would be able to provide ICAO 7 at all operating times.

Those in the business will realise what permanent 7 means to most low cost operators. I.E. we are ready now :ok:

What does all this mean?

[blazing_air]

H9
I think what foamer is saying is that, as far as the Fire & Rescue capabilities are concerned, they are ready to accept scheduled flights.
Most of the Loco's use aircraft which fall into I.C.A.O Cat7.
So should one announce flights from or to MSE, they would be able handle them without need for recruitment or too much more investment.
It takes a few years to take a guy/girl off the street and train him/her to become a fully qualified aviation firefighter.

This link provides a little more information on the RFFS.

http://www.fireservice.co.uk/articles/aviation.php

[Hangar_9]

Thanks for that advice Blazing.

On another note does anybody know when DAS are getting their license back?

[catflaps]

Did anyone else find it ironic/amusing that Lydd (London Ashford) has managed to get its advert at the bottom of the discussion about Manston ?

[tilewood]

Now what would be amusing would be Manston advertising!

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by deedave View Post
"Thie evening, we seem to be bringing our widely differing views to this forum considerately, politely, and intelligently.
We also appear to have self-moderated ourselves through a point of order.
I think the removal of certain contributors has helped.
At the risk of being creepy, do I speak for all of us when I say three cheers for the mods"?
----------------
Not three cheers for the mods..three cheers for the Manston ppruners for getting the thread back on track with lively and interesting discussion again.
Thank you
Moderatrors.

[MDIS]

Catflaps

You beat me to it!!
I've been meaning to comment on that for weeks.

MDIS

[HZ123]

As a distant observer KIA has no chance whatsoever. You have only to look at the time taken to start up and establish STN (30 years and that was with a blank cheque and government support). It is no good to dream about future growth of air traffic and how this may be instrumental in kick starting KIA. There is still a lot of spare slots at LGW and STN with a huge infrastructure behind it so who on earth is going to wish to set up and fly from KIA. The airport has always struggled and unlike many other debveloping airports does not even boast a history of civil flights.

[MDIS]

Does it then follow that no other airport in the UK has a chance because there are already established facilities with spare capacity?

MDIS

[Dont tell um pike]

"There is still a lot of spare slots at LGW and STN"

STN probly don't need that other runway then , get me BAA on the phone stat !

:sad:

DTUP

[Manston Airport]

Undiemole
I hear what you are saying, but it is the very fact that this operation provides a fst turn-around for MK & Egypt as to why it's so succesful.
Granted in an ideal world, it would loaded off onto dollies then onto a roller bed system to feed the trucks.
But Manston isnt set up like that yet, so the fork lift truck and slave pallet rule at the moment all the time it gives a fast offload.
I do agree that on the freight side, space is paramount, once a 747 build has been completed, there is hardly room to sneeze in there.
But i did see the surveyors on Echo the other day looking at putting more concrete down i hear, and negotiations still ongoing to get Hangar 3 back for freight builds.


Where abouts is Hanger 3 :confused: Is that the hanger near the DAS Hanger and taking off DAS is there any news on there return.?One other thing is the flights to the USA are they on the 767?

Regards
James

[Hangar_9]

As a distant observer KIA has no chance whatsoever. You have only to look at the time taken to start up and establish STN (30 years and that was with a blank cheque and government support). It is no good to dream about future growth of air traffic and how this may be instrumental in kick starting KIA. There is still a lot of spare slots at LGW and STN with a huge infrastructure behind it so who on earth is going to wish to set up and fly from KIA. The airport has always struggled and unlike many other debveloping airports does not even boast a history of civil flights.

For a period of several years Invicta airways flew about 30-40 flights a-day? :ooh:

[Twitcher]

Where abouts is Hanger 3 :confused: Is that the hanger near the DAS Hanger and taking off DAS is there any news on there return.?One other thing is the flights to the USA are they on the 767?
Regards
James
Hangar 3 is over near the BIP. There is no other hangar near the DAS hangar anymore except TG.
You will find out the news on DAS in February.
Post #40 explained the flights will be with a 767.

[Jes]

Echo apron is to be extended considerably, with extra 747-size stands, and the ability to pushback and/or taxi without other aircraft having to move. Tenders have been invited, and the plan is to start construction at the end of March.

MK are now running daily from Nairobi; obviously there are days when the flight will be cancelled: e.g. today.

[deedave]

Of interest to freight airports-

"The Times" today-

"Air freighted food to be given a warning label"

Tesco, Asda and Marks and Spencer are to mark their air freighted food to "encourage shoppers to leave the goods on the shelf if they wish to be green".

"Only between 3 and 4 per cent of food sold in supermarkets is flown to Britain"

"Tesco hopes to reduce the amount of air-freighted food to less than 1 per cent"

etc.
.
.

[Hangar_9]

If its only 4%, what the bloody hell they worrying about :*

secondly.
DEEDAVE
Not all freight has to be from food imports.
Ford distribution branch at dartford last month cancelled all ship imports in favour of "Cheaper" air freight, yes cheaper i here you say.
Manston could capitalise on this perphaphs?:cool:

[deedave]

Hangar9
A small point but we have been asked not to swear.
Difficult for me, for I am a very sweary individual, but I think we should abide by this.
I wouldn't like to see you banned just as you are out of your probationary period..........

[function]

Of interest to freight airports-
"The Times" today-
"Air freighted food to be given a warning label"
Tesco, Asda and Marks and Spencer are to mark their air freighted food to "encourage shoppers to leave the goods on the shelf if they wish to be green".
"Only between 3 and 4 per cent of food sold in supermarkets is flown to Britain"
"Tesco hopes to reduce the amount of air-freighted food to less than 1 per cent"
etc..
.

But it also says in the same article that ..........."that food imported by air may be more environmentally friendly than something grown out of season in a heated glasshouse in Britain. " and ......" A reduction in food miles, however, poses an ethical dilemma for supermarkets. Sir Terry Leahy, chief executive of Tesco, said: “There is a strong international development case for trading with developing countries. So the question is, should we shun Fairtrade horticulture from East Africa to save CO2, or champion it as an important contribution to alleviating poverty?”

Its my experience that the majority of shoppers don't pay too much attention to the labels on the produce they buy....so while there is a demand.......I think it will continue to be flown in.

[Twitcher]

....and of course a lot of fruit, vegetables and flowers cannot be grown outside Africa/Asia and will always have to be flown in if we want these as fresh produce.

[catflaps]

There are two ways of looking at this letter, which appeared in this week’s local paper. On the one hand you could argue that flights from Masnton are over-priced. On the other hand, you could argue that they must be getting a lot of bookings to justify the prices they are charging. I guess we could settle it by looking at the comparable costs from Gatwick?

"I have always been a great supporter of Manston Airport and flew regularly with Eujet during its operating life. I understand this is a business and a profit has to be made in order to maintain and develop services, but I am very disappointed by the exorbitant cost of tickets for families during school hoidays. I tried to book tickets for flights only, to and from the Algarve, for my daughter and granddaughter for October half-term. The cost is £538. The previous week it was £318. On checking further the cost of a self-catering week, with flights worked out cheaper than the flight-only option.

I know this is a complaint that comes up regularly. However, this is a local airport that is predominantly reliant upon "local" people supporting and using it on a regular basis.

If families are to be penalized in this way then the operator is limiting customers options, particularly those people whose income cannot meet such inflated prices unless their children are removed from school. Personally, I would be prepared to pay more for my flights thoughout the year if a more level playing field could be offered during the school holidays. Surely as parents or grandparents we could all benefit from this to some degree."

[function]

KIA have no input into what the holiday firm SEGURO charges it's customers.

[Dont tell um pike]

A valid point but are there ANY holiday companies which don't charge a premium during the school holidays ?

I seem to remember this became a political bandwagon a couple of years ago but as always, after a few headline grabbing sound bites got sunk without a trace.

DTUP

[catflaps]

It's probably true that all companies charge a premium during the school holidays. But £318 for a ticket booked outside the school holidays, and nine months in advance, sounds quite steep to me.

[Manston Airport]

Hi all I was just wondering can Manston Handle the A380 & the A380F? Im sure the runway can but what about the Taxiways and Aprons:confused:


James

[fj1]

Good chance of “yes”, don't forgot that MSE can take a AN124, which is just larger in certain dimensions. The A380F is all but dead and buried. Atlas has some 747-8 on order, you might get one of those at MSE …one day.

[Manston Airport]

Damn did UPS cancel the A380F now then oh :mad: :( Be good to see a 747-8 at MSE :8

James

[Hangar_9]

Why woul atlas come to manston?:rolleyes:

MANSTON AIRPORT - Your more likely to see the wright flyers machine than one of them at MSE

[Manston Airport]

Why woul atlas come to manston?:rolleyes:

MANSTON AIRPORT - Your more likely to see the wright flyers machine than one of them at MSE


They might come into MSE you never know what could happen:rolleyes: Does anyone have any infomation about MK Airlines operating out of manston from when they started at MSE to when they left and returned again thank you.

Air atlanta mentioned on the kent escapes website?


Where abouts on the website? It might be done by an Excel 737-800?

James

[MDIS]

I understand the writers problems but this is not an issue specific to Manston.
It would be interesting to see how much the same or simliar trip would cost from LGW. Taking into consideration that residents from Thanet could be delivered by taxi or friends, thus saving return taxis to LGW or the car parking charges.

This is not a pro Manston post but a suggested response to the letter writer.

I will investigate and post my findings.

MDIS

[Jes]

More on freight

Let me modify my information on Echo apron. I've now got news from an organ-grinder that surveying is taking place, the aim being to extend the apron so that it can take 2 x 747 and 1 x A300 such that each aircraft can move independently. I'm not sure about dates now.

Perhaps our fire chaps can say more, but another source has told me of some poor service given to DAS (before their troubles started). On one occasion a load of flowers (30 tons) was rejected by the importer, having been unloaded 12 hours after arrival, and on another a departure was put back 24 hours because fuelling was not carried out as booked. Recent staff changes might be partly due to these failures. The lesson here is that business often suffers because it is not looked after, and not because there is no demand.
It looks as though the welcome addition to fire cover is part of an attempt to improve customer service.

DC-10 operation rumours are surfacing again.

[MDIS]

Kent Escapes Flight only
OB 18th Oct IB 25th Oct 2 Adults £538
TAP dates not available but OB 18th IB 28th 2 adults £559.80
EZY Not available
Monarch Dates not available but OB 16th IB 25th 2 Adults 257.68
Thomsonfly Dates not available but OB 18th IB 28th 2 Adults £217

Result is yes you can do it cheaper but taxi to LGW return £150 or Parking £85 Plus fuel 150 miles at 25p per mile £37.50. Plus at least 2 nights extra accomodation and costs.

Probably not a lot in it.

So MSE is not such a bargain after all??

Kent Escapes are a package holiday co and so they will fly you to FAO but will want to add on their lost hotel profit, which is not unreasonable.

The person who wrote the article is being a little 2 faced! On the one hand he/she is saying that people from Thanet cannot afford inflated prices but on the other he/she is suggesting that they would be willing to pay higher prices all year to subsidise the school holiday rates?? He may have more luck writing to the hoteliers in Faro who know only too well the academic calendars in the UK and the rest of Europe

Sitting on the fence

MDIS
............................................................ .........


DAS
Heard about the problems with DAS but these apparently relate to quite a while ago. I also heard that there were other circumstances which added to the problems.

Hopefully if and when DAS restart ops MSE provide a quality service.

MDIS

[Hangar_9]

SO.....
Cargo

MK - Daily
Eygpt cargo- 4 weekly?
Das - Yet to be announced?
Any other long term users?

PAX

3 weekly Alicante/Faro/Palma
Monarch weekly wednesday?
New market - about 7 flights this year.


Am i right? :uhoh:

[Hangar_9]

Where abouts on the website? It might be done by an Excel 737-800?

James

Pretend to book a flight and then you will see Air atlanta operated ;) . The AEU (astraeus) code has disappeared.

[catflaps]

Hi MDIS.

I had done similar research to yourself. However, as there is a range of prices I didn't want to publish figures for fear of being accused of bias. Nevertheless, I did conclude that it was significantly cheaper to fly from other airports. You rightly cost in the price of car-parking. However, you should do this for Manston too, because most of the intended market does not live within walking/taxi tange of the airport. At £25 per day, that's £175 a week. For a person living in Chatham they have a choice of driving to Manston or Gatwick. It will take them about the same time. I suspect the overall cost will play a big mart in their decision of which airport to use. Gatwick comes out much cheaper overall.

[MDIS]

Hi Catflaps

I think car parking at MSE is £7.50 per day, but you are right that does need to be taken into account. I was just using the example of the letter writer who is from Thanet and therefore could probably avoid the car parking charges.

MDIS

[Dont tell um pike]

Manston Car Parking

Daily = £7.50

7 Days = £30

15 Days = £67.50

Sounds quite reasonable to me :)

[Manston Airport]

Pretend to book a flight and then you will see Air atlanta operated ;) . The AEU (astraeus) code has disappeared.


Yeah at first nothing came up but put a later date it comes up with it.So it might maybe done by excel 737-800 ,or a 757 :ok:

PS Hope MSE improves the DAS service if they return.

James

[function]

"PS Hope MSE improves the DAS service if they return."
James.

How would you suggest the service be improved , are you aware of
all the facts then....there's more than one side to any story.

[Manston Airport]

"PS Hope MSE improves the DAS service if they return."
James.

How would you suggest the service be improved , are you aware of
all the facts then....there's more than one side to any story.


To tell you the truth I dont even know why I write that for :ugh: :ugh: Maybe its cause I want good old DAS back :O

James:zzz:

[niknak]

All this reminds me of the latest TV advertising campaign/crackdown on Benefit cheats... the use of IF, BUT & MAYBE features heavily...:rolleyes:

[trumpcard]

I've watched the bickering about Manston for some time now, and confess to having used the airport on every occasion where a choice was available to me.
Driving up the M25 and M11 to Stansted or using the M20 and M25 to Gatwick can't compare to 25 minutes on the M2 and Thanet Way.
EUJet certainly had it's faults and when they dropped the GLA route it certainly forced me to go back to using LGW. But I continued to use them whenever possible.
I will use the flights to Norfolk Va. a couple of times this summer and if another carrier emerges to run regular scheduled services within the UK and mainland Europe I will use them also.
More power to Infratil's arm. I wish them good fortune and early success at finding a reputable carrier for the airport

trumpcard

[deedave]

Bickering?

A little unfair perhaps.

That was all in the past.

Everyone is behaving very well I think.

Congratulations to all !!!

BTW - I don't normally join in detailed discussion about comparitive surface travel to airports, but I thought I would mention that, if one is seeking the cheap LGW deals, the obvious way to go is by rail via Tonbridge.
I think the last time I did it from Thanet, it was around 25 quid return.

Car is OK but you have to park.

Going by taxi would be a bit bonkers.

[Herne Bay]

Train Travel
from Ramsgate to Gatwick
just looked at a day how to get to Gatwick from Ramsgate
Outward journey: Thursday 1 February
from 2.28 hours to 2.45 mins

Cost peak via Tonbridge £32.80 off peak £22
Cost peak via Vic £35.30 off peak £32.80
and thats each way, with a journey time of 2.28 to 2.45 mins
two adults two children your looking at around £200
with check in times and a bit of insurance time, you have to leave about 5 hours before your flight. so you need a flight after about 10.30 to get there, if your flight come in after about 9.30 ish. your miss the last train.
take a taxi much better.

[deedave]

I travel alone, so I get a saver return. Just phoned rail company - it's 27 quid return off-peak.(cheaper with railcard)

Wth a family, you would use a family railcard.

Mind you, just phoned Gatwick BCP and you can currently park there for a fortnight for 59 quid.

Bargain!

[Hangar_9]

Just though i'd say that on the KIA website there is an advertisement for cargo ramp agent?
A sign :rolleyes: of things to come!?
Only a three month spell though strange arrangment?

[deedave]

Air Show Cancelled - according to "Isle of Thanet Gazette"

[Herne Bay]

What is a (cargo ramp agent)

[blazing_air]

I" think it's more to do with the holiday flight programs rather than cargo flights hence the 3 month contract."
Actually it is more to do with cargo than passenger.
10 additional ramp staff are being sought at the moment to allow freight to be built 24 hrs a day.
This is a sign that the increase in freight handling is not just a blip, but a steady and expected increase.
The 3 month contract, seems to be the way to get in the door at the moment.
Most of the staff that have been taken on over the last 12 months, started on a 3 month short term contract.

A "cargo ramp agent" is a job decription for someone trained to work on the "ramp" ( ground handling services )
Which may include building freight, general warehouse duties and all that is involved in the turn around of aircraft.

[MDIS]

Do they say why the airshow is cancelled?

Mdis

[catflaps]

I think the airshow's been cancelled because the bloodhounds are busy sniffing out just how much it has cost Thanet's long-suffering taxpayers. Then the real questions will start; first and foremost, who presented the Council with a projected estimate of the cost and when did the Councillors vote to sanction this expenditure.

[Twitcher]

from the BBC site:
The 2007 Kent Air Show has been cancelled but will return in 2008, Thanet council has said.
Organisers have told the authority they cannot take any financial risk over the event, said Councillor Roger Latchford.

He said that would mean the council having to underwrite the show by £300,000 instead of £30,000 as in 2006.

"The sad fact is the underwriting required would be 10 times the amount of previous years. We can't take that risk with taxpayers' money," he said.

He added that the council needed a commercial operator to take the remainder of the risk, which had not proved possible.

Aerial displays

"We are already working towards putting the Kent Air Show Margate on in 2008 and are talking to other operators," he said.

An event featuring music, clowns, entertainers, trapeze artists and pyrotechnics will take place at Palm Bay on 16 and 17 June instead of the air show.

It will also include aerial displays on both days, the council said.

Margate's first air show in 2005 included a Red Arrows display and the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, with Harriers, Spitfires and Hurricanes on display.

In 2006, a single-seater Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft was exhibited as the show's major highlight. Other features included the Red Arrows, the latest fast jets, fighters, bombers, WWII aircraft and parachute displays.

[catflaps]

And from the local paper:

Thanet Council had been trying to find a company to put on the display in Palm Bay this Summer after Tonge Events pulled out. Tonge had been behind the past two years' shows but ran the displays at a loss. Last month parent company Tonge International went out of business."

Hmmmm. Thousands of paying customers, a generous subsidy from the local Council, the beaches closed to force people to pay, perfect weather, and they still made a loss. Where did all of that money go? I think we should be told.

[blazing_air]

i agree catflaps we should be told, but surely this isnt the forum to have this discussion?
Apart from the aircraft that may have come to the airshow and possibly overnighting at MSE, what does this thread have to do with Manston?
Surely this is better suited in the replies column of the local gazzette?

[MDIS]

I know we didnt want to mention that word again but didn't EUjet sponsor the first one in 2005?

MDIS

[EGMH]

Indeed they did.
On Saturday 18 and Sunday 19 June 2005, the town will host its first ever Air Show, the Flight Margate Air Show, on the seafront in Palm Bay, which will be sponsored by EUjet, the low cost regional airline, flying from Kent International Airport Manston.
Link (http://www.tongeinternational.com/news/news_170205.htm)

[deedave]

Thanet-based aviation activity running at a loss?

Surely not........

[MDIS]

OK

Lets all scrap it it and move on or we know where it will end up!!
Did anyone see the acccounts of the unsuccessful airshow??

MDIS

[catflaps]

Hi blazing air,

Agreed. Let's not mention the airshow. Instead, perhaps you can give us for the source of some information you quoted as if it were a fact:

"10 additional ramp staff are being sought at the moment to allow freight to be built 24 hrs a day."

As I'm sure you're aware, Manston is covered by a legal agreement with the local Council, which applies punitive financial penalties to movements between 23:00 and 07:00. Pray tell us how they are going to build to 24hrs a day.

[fj1]

As that legal agreement was signed by the previous owners, is it still binding ? The last I seem to remember, was that the new owners were concidering their position.

[blazing_air]

"As I'm sure you're aware, Manston is covered by a legal agreement with the local Council, which applies punitive financial penalties to movements between 23:00 and 07:00. Pray tell us how they are going to build to 24hrs a day."
Yet again you are quite correct !!
However, you seem a little confused :confused: - i said that they were looking to build through the night ( 24 hour operation )
This does not mean than any aircraft would be operating outside of the opening hours.
Freight turns up at many times during the day and night sometimes, and to allow this freight to be built into outbound loads takes many hours.
With the increase from inbound and outbound cargo, it makes more sense to allow this activity to happen through the night, rather than having it wait for day staff to turn up for work and fit it in around aircraft turn-arounds.
I hope this clears up any confusion :p

[catflaps]

Hi fj1

The agreement is most certainly binding on Infratil. I can't remember the exact wording, but it bound the original signatories and anyone who subsequently owned the airport. I think the acid test will be the night flights that took place in the run-up to Christmas. By my reckoning there must be at least £10,000 of fines to be paid. It could be a lot more. If Infratil pay these fines it will prove they accept the agreement to be binding on them.

[Herne Bay]

"10 additional ramp staff are being sought at the moment to allow freight to be built 24 hrs a day."

To allow freight to be built.

what has that got to do with taking off and landing at night. Is the fact that staff will be working nights at the airport a problem ?

[catflaps]

There's nothing to stop staff working at the airport at night. However, I can't see the need to employ more staff unless additional business is on the cards. As I haven't seen an MK in the last week, I'd have to say that things are looking decidedly quiet.

[foamer]

MK are landing in an hour.

We are moving more freight than I have ever seen at this Airport.

More staff are needed to cover today’s work load, not tomorrows.:sad:

[Twitcher]

Catflaps said "As I haven't seen an MK in the last week, I'd have to say that things are looking decidedly quiet."
Monday29th An12 with freight
Tuesday 30th MK with freight
Wednesday 31st MK and Egyptair both with freight
Friday 2nd Egyptair with freight
Today MK with freight
It seems you must have driven through on Thursday and today:rolleyes:
And before you ask, these weren't the only movements this week, they are just the freight ones.
Also as has been said, building up loads overnight etc makes it a much easier and quicker task to load the aircraft when they come in.

[catflaps]

"..these weren't the only movements this week, they are just the freight ones."

Are you saying there were some passenger movements this week?

[Twitcher]

Small private charter jets regularly carry in a few people at a time, technically these are passenger movements on a small scale. Here are examples.
Monday 29th 2 x private jet
Tuesday 30th 2 x private jet
Also,
Wednesday 31st airline circuit training
Saturday 3rd airline circuit training
These airlines just fly around in circuits but on each 'lap' they touch down, for doing this Manston charge a fee, This then earns revenue to the airport, a phrase you're not keen to hear.

[MDIS]

"Infratil shares are not cheap, and have never looked cheap," says McEwen. "But its strategy of focusing on long-term growth sectors like energy and airport assets is proving a good one as these are highly sought after sectors and, when managed well, highly profitable."

Infratil are always saying that they are in for the long haul an dthis quote from analysts in NZ seems to back them up.

Hopefully this strategy will apply at MSE and in the long run jobs can be created for East Kent and in particular Thanet.

MDIS

[Jes]

On Saturday Tower and Approach were being worked separately, and it looks as though the radar is about ready.

[deedave]

On the ADVFN noticeboard a couple of years ago somone asked about training circuit revenue.

There was a reply from someone who reckoned they were "in the know" who said it was a faily nominal amount, stating "I find it hard to get excited about training bumps - I doubt if it even pays for one ATC."

[Twitcher]

The amount is irrelevant, it is all money EARNT that they wouldn't have had if those aircraft didn't use the airport.The air traffic controller was there already, so it cost nowt extra for Manston to do.
Your comments were a perfect example of having to knock everything that is said in support of the airport:ugh:

[Manston Airport]

I saw the Oasis 744 on saturday look great doing touch & goes on rwy 10 I think at MSE.Comes into MSE quite alot after its flight from hong kong to LGW. Any news on BMed doing cargo flights or is that old news now:confused: wonder what will happen with BMI now the new owners of BMed.Hope DAS get the come back :ok:

james

[deedave]

Twitcher-

Your posts today and 4 Feb contain personal attacks, albeit mild ones, which the moderators have specifically instructed us not to do.

Such comments are in breach of posting guidelines, and contribute nothing to the material facts of the discussion.

Although your comments were mild, such things have a habit of escalating, and I would not wish to see you banned from the forum.

Lets stick to discussing the airport, rather than questioning another member's right to hold a particular point of view.

[catflaps]

Posted by Twitcher:

"The amount is irrelevant"

I beg to differ. If the amount of revenue being raised by the airport is too little it will go bust. There is good an substantive evidence to support this thesis. It's happened before.

[catflaps]

26th January, AN26 operated by RAF Avia of Latvia departed for Ostend carrying engine parts for MK Airlines jet plane on the tarmac at Ostend. Which MK are we talking about?

Whose is the 747 with a blue tail fin which has landed today ? This Blue tailed bird has been in few times over the past two weeks?

[Twitcher]

The 'blue tailed bird' is an MK machine.

As for the amount being irrelevant, I was just pointing out that even if just £1000 was generated it is more than the airport would have got if the aircraft hadn't used the facility. It isn't enough to run the airport on I agree, but each of these small amounts added up make a difference.

[MDIS]

Catflaps

The engine parts for the MK was only a replacement engine cowl for an aircraft in Africa. The part was taken from MSE to OST and then went on another MK to Africa.

MK over the weekend should have gone from MSE to Brize and on to Basra but they used a different aircraft due to the late arrival of the originally scheduled one from Cairo.

The blue tail was 9G-MGU an MK going to NBO.

I think Twitcher is saying that all revenue is important and as long as it doesn't incur additional cost it will reduce the current losses. It could be said that £1000 is a drop in the ocean but it all helps.


MDIS

[catflaps]

"..even if just £1000 was generated it is more than the airport would have got if the aircraft hadn't used the facility."

If you have a fully-equipped airport handling many flights per day this would of course be true. However, if you have a handful of flights per day the economic analysis changes. You are having to provide fire and rescue services, air-traffic control, customs, security, ground-staff etc. etc. All of this is costing you money. The longer you are open for each day the more it costs you.

Consequently, the cost to you of providing facilities to accept that one flight far exceed the revenue you obtain from it. Far better to close down and divert the one flight somewhere else. Perhaps you could persuade the proper airports to pay you a finders fee every time you send them a plane.

[Twitcher]

On the day in question there were a further 48 aircraft movements (takeoffs, landings, internal flights etc). These were all between the hours of 10:12 am and 4:34pm. Therefore the airport was busy enough to justify having all the required services (atc, fire etc) in attendance on the day. The 747 doing training was a bonus.
If the airport was kept closed on quiet days to save money, no doubt somebody would chip in that there could be a missed opportunity in the event there was problem at a major airport nearby and Manston could not take any diversions.
Anyway on another note I shall take the bait no longer from now on and will keep my fingers away from the keyboard in response to certain types of posts from users that are just made to stir up reaction.

[Expressflight]

Did MSE attract any snow diversions today?

One would have thought that it might, with STN and LTN being closed for much of the morning.

It is reported on this Forum that SEN received 27 diversions, although I cannot vouch for that figure being correct. There would obviously have been many others that SEN could not accept due to runway length and if MSE is looking to be taken seriously it needs to be picking up this sort of business on days like this. Otherwise ............

[Dont tell um pike]

Perhaps with the Bravo apron being closed due WIP and ECHO required for freight there may not be too much room left for diversions ?
:8
DTUP

[blazing_air]

.....absolutely correct dtup.
Unfortunately to prepare for the summer business, Bravo Apron is closed and work is being completed on most of the taxiways to finish and comission the new taxiway lighting and repairs.
Echo is the only apron available, which is being used by Air Atalnta, MK, and Egypt.
MSE did manage to open today for business, which considering the amount of snow/slush that had to be removed from the runway and taxiways was an excellent effort.
I am biased, but the teams did work very hard today, to ensure it was business as usual.

[snarfel]

After a first of its B747-200 being UK re-registered (G-MKAA) in August 2006, it was expected, according to Mike Kruger, that every month another B747 would join the UK register. Not so!
Why didn’t the last by MK in October 2006 acquired B747-200 get a Ghana-registration instead of a UK one?
According to a Memorandum of Understanding of November 2005, the actual MK-fleet would be soon and gradually replaced by B747-400. Not so either! Instead, MK is going to keep its 25 year old planes flying by equipping them with supplementary Pratt&Whitney kits (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070202/clf061.html?.v=39) and so trying to extend their viability. 36 kits seem to be ordered, i.e. good for 9 B747’s, MK having at this moment 7 of these planes. The capabilities and performances of these P&W kits can be found on http://www.imakenews.com/pwconnections/e_article000501981.cfm?x=b11,0,w.
What is happening? Or are all the prospects just postponed?

[Jes]

Wouldn't this be better on the appropriate Freight Dogs thread?

[snarfel]

Well, this has in fact a lot to do with MSE, since MK is a mayor player in connection with MSE freight.

[Hangar_9]

..and havent engine changes been taking place at MSE itself?

[catflaps]

What is happening to MK?

According to government sources, the six remaining aircraft have been dry-leased by the airline pending their transfer to the UK register. Although they are registered in Ghana the aircraft are operated under MK's UK AOC, and are under the supervision of the UK CAA. The initially anticipated rate of re-registration has been slowed by "an unexpected" shortage of JAA qualified engineers and pilots.

Doesn't make any sense to me, but you decide.

[Hangar_9]

Maybe The change to P&W comlies moreso with UK aviation laws so no new registering will take place until the engine change has taken place.
I am probably totally wrong but it gives us somthing to discuss/argue about, whatever your viewpoint :)

[Jes]

I suggested that discussion of MK as a company would better be carried out on a Freight Dogs thread, as that is the correct procedure. The danger with the Manston thread is that Kevin Spacey's crowd pluck a theme from the air and turn it into another "Manston is finished" rant. The one this week on snow diversions was a masterpiece of the genre.

The well-informed Snarfel has tried several times to fish on whether MK is or should be moving to Manston from Ostend. Nobody ever replies to him; I must admit that I should have but didn't, because I was suspicious about his motives.

MK has had capacity problems for a few weeks, arising from unplanned maintenance demands. This week they've hired in a DC-8 and a 747.

The rumour around the airport is that the new shareholders in MK are pressing for the base to be moved to Manston. Not only are there lots of short-hop positioning flights, the Synergy-operated crew-ferry flights can't be cheap.

I shan't say anything at the moment about rumblings re DAS, another DC-10 operator, and African International.

[Stanstedeye]

Actual divertions not known. Excel Coaches of STN were paid to supply coaches for a maximum of 27 divertions.

[Hangar_9]

What benefits would moving base to MSE bring.
From an enthusuasts PoV would it bring more flights?

[catflaps]

My recollection is that Kevin Spacey was 100% right about everything. He WAS an alien and he DID return to K-Pax on a beam of light. If the Kevin Spacey crew are predicting failure for Manston, watch out!!!

[deedave]

It is not my job to moderate this forum, however, a few timely reminders seem to save the moderators some aggravation.

Jes-

Your comments on Snarfel ("suspicious about his motives") amount to a slur. This places him/her in a difficult position - allow the slur to go unchallenged, or respond and risk a return to bickering. This has been a troubled thread in the past, and must now set the highest standards on pprune.

To paraphrase Evileyes - "play the ball, not the player", and "if you use another person's name, you may well be sniping."

I find it disappointing that a handful of "Manston Supporters" seem unable to go for more than a small march of days without veering away from the subject of the airport, and having a pop at other contributors. If you really cling to the belief that MSE has a profitable future, you should be able to make your point without personal comments.

This is an anonymous forum, and one should retain a healthy scepticism for all contributors. Please don't just pick on Snarfel.

Speaking of healthy scepticism...

In September you posted a rumour that there may be two new passenger operators at MSE this year.
As we could reasonably have expected an announcement by now, do you have any more information on this?

[dionysius]

I shan't say anything at the moment about rumblings re DAS, another DC-10 operator, and African International.

C'mon Jes do enlighten us :hmm:

[Dont tell um pike]

DD as much as i respect your new role as community forum police could you please stick to the the facts , The original post by jes states

" because I was suspicious about his motives."

note the word "was" is chosen and not "am"

I come to this forum for Rumours and News, when i want made up stuff I'll read a newspaper.

:suspect:

DTUP

[Manston Airport]

Hangar_9 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=164001) vbmenu_register("postmenu_3119213", true); My point off veiw off MK moving to 1 ramp MSE is I would love it if MK came back to MSE and I would hope they would create more flights from MSE plus it be good to have some movements ;) and also be good to see the 747-200F there all the time. who is Kevin Spacey:confused:

James

[Hangar_9]

ermmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... What the first bit of your post about apart from wasting pprune bandwith?

About rumours

I have heard some news but nothing is official so it cant be said.
Give it 3-6 weeks and something may happen i.e MK. :rolleyes:

[dionysius]

Seems strange that MK would move op to Mse now that they have their own dedicated freight shed/offices and large ramp area at Ostend, I believe that they also arranged a good deal for their fuel to be brought into the port of ostend.:bored:

[snarfel]

Deedave, thanks.
One thing is clear. You shall not speak in negative terms about aviation. Only good news is acceptable. That makes the MSE forum sometimes so clownish.

[catflaps]

"I shan't say anything at the moment about rumblings re DAS, another DC-10 operator, and African International."

I, in turn, shall say nothing about the airport closing down in a few weeks time.

[dionysius]

Will both of you stop comparing manhood sizes and reveal all, after all this is supposed to be a rumour network forum....:ugh: :rolleyes:

[Manston Airport]

Hanger (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=164001) 9 you said
What benefits would moving base to MSE bring.
From an enthusuasts PoV would it bring more flights?
and PoV means Points of Veiw so thats what I said sorry if you did not understand me :uhoh: Catflaps please say something nice about manston for once:ok:
James

[Hangar_9]

Come on jes, i sort of know what your gong to say and CATFLAPS go ahead tell us.....:)

Manston airport - You keep linking my name to my profile. Why?

[Manston Airport]

Sorry about that I too lazy to write your name so i copyed and pasted it which answer to the link sorry again :ok:.

James

[MDIS]

I heard today that Viking Airways will be operating the Kent Escapes programme this Summer. MD 83's

2 unbranded 747's belonging to Air Atlanta in for cleaning and on XL 747 in for the same.


MDIS

[tommyc2005]

Hmm, Viking?! I hope Infratil invest in some entertainment. The cafe will make a killing with 140 people trapped in the terminal for 12 hours three times per week! :ooh:

To be fair, pre-Scandic at STN their performance was good, I hope for Kent Escape's sake (and their reputation) that is a better indicator of things to come!

[Hangar_9]

also the monarch flights with there B767's. Thats if they fill them flights up? :uhoh:

[Evileyes]

A few of you need to find a chatroom or a pub and work it out. PPRuNe is tired of seeing it.

A break is hereby declared and will be rescinded at PPRuNe's pleasure.

To be clear, no more Manston posts are welcome until the mods say so.

The issue shall be revisited later at PPRuNe's discretion.

The Mods