Flyglobespan: Time To Make A Stand

[Bongo Bill]

Dear Fellow Flyglobspan Crew Members:

I am writing this on Pprune so that we can organise collective action against the gross infraction of the rules laid down in CAP 371 by Flyglobespan management. I would also like to highlight their questionable policies with regards to crew welfare and ask the question: which school of airline management does that come from?

As you all know, our senior management, with one exception, come from a shorthaul back ground in airlines that our not exactly well known for their standards. They have no experience running a large and expanding longhaul airline, with the different challenges that presents. It is time they got the message that they are not running an airline with 2 B737's that can be organised on the back of a fag packet.

I am sick of our company's flagrant disregard for our welfare and disrespect for the regulations which our competitors in the airline world must comply with. We must rise against this and work together to get the message accross that things cannot continue the way they are. The shining example of this abuse of the rules is the new scheduled minimum rest Cape Town flight.

Not only that, I would ask the question: How much does it cost to train a new pilot to the airline, whether experienced or not? This cost would include, ground school, simulator time, circuits, sectors etc. Is it really more economical to create a training airline with high staff turnover than to create an airline where the staff feel valued and wish to serve out their careers. Of course it isn't! Otherwise all the large successful airlines would be doing it, however, they have learned that in the long run it just costs more money having unhappy staff.

This of course means that they will struggle to find quality pilots in the future and may find themselves with an aircraft uncrewed on the ground or in the news because of an incident. How economical will that be?

So friends, how shall we make our stand together to fight the "Evil Empire" (sorry couldn't resist that).

First: We are rostered a report time of 1 hour before STD. Let us all report for our North Atlantic and ETOPS flights exactly one hour before departure, and see what happens to the on time performance figures.

Second: We must refuse to work on our days off until such a time as the co-operation and flexibility is a two way street.

Third: We must make sure that we receive our legal in-flight rest in the way in which is laid down in Part A. That does not mean a singular Economy seat in full view of the passengers. That means two curtained off Business class seats or a bunk bed. (An in-flight massage would be nice but not a deal breaker :-)

Fourth: We must insist that we receive our minimum rest in the hotel, not in a baggage hall, minibus, standing outside a terminal.

Fifth: Discretion will become just that, Discretion, and will not be exercised carte blanche as a planning tool for the company.

Sixth: Refuse to share hotel rooms with your colleagues. I like you guys...but NOT that much.

Seventh: Insist on seperate rooms for yourself and the remainder of the crew when coming back from the ridiculous Toronto duty where we operate out and position back.

Eigth: Refuse to do any positioning that involves multi sectors and exceeds 12 hours on the grounds of human rights.

These are my thoughts on how we can withdraw our co-operation until such a time as it is not abused by the company. I would also suggest that we must get the ball rolling with regards to union representation as soon as possible. I have heard that the IPF are second largest next to Balpa and less expensive. Another option is the TGWU. Please let us discuss which is the best option and then move forward, together, to make our voices heard within the company.

I welcome your replies on anything else that we can do to change the airline for the better.

Safe Flying

P.S Please complain loudly to the contract agency.

[Mr Gammon Flaps]

Well said Bill, totally agree with you. Let's show them that they can't take the piss like this.

I hear the IPF is good. Don't really want to join BALPA, however what is important is that we all join the same Union. (don't know much about the TGWU)

I vote for IPF....anybody else?

[elburo]

Gentlemen, you are absolutely right, enough is enough.
IPF sounds good to me. In the mean time lets not allow ourselves to be rostered into discretion.
I understand the MAN-CPT has had to tech stop PMI on three occasions recently.....crew continuing on to CPT. This is not good eh? delays delays delays! Any idea which hotel we will be using in PMI?
I understand our fleet manager and chief pilot are operating the first min rest to CPT. Should be interesting to hear their views.

........An opps inspector with his eyes open might help!!

[Joe Havana]

At last someone comes up with a plan of attack. We all have to stick together and get the job done. I think the airline could be a great place to work with a few tweaks. The crew are experienced and great fun and the routes are interesting.

I'm a member of the IPF and can recommend them. They are proactive and only cost £22 a month which is a lot cheaper than BALPA. (I know what the arguments are for BALPA but I have a feeling more people will be willing to join the IPF than BALPA purely down to the cost.) Representation is really the key at this stage, not the legal cover.

I am going to do what Bongo Bill suggests and the company will soon see exactly how much they will save treating their crews like this.

Flyglobespan you have pushed us too far!

Time for a cigar and a Mojito.

[elburo]

Me again,
Maybe I'm seeing things but I've just downloaded CAP 371 from the CAA website and I quote with reference to absolute limits of flying hours,

para 23.6
The Maximum number of Flying Hours which a pilot may be permitted to undertake are,

Single Day Table D
Any 3 consecutive days 18 Hours
Any 7 consecutive days 30 Hours
Any 3 consecutive 28 day periods 240 Hours

.....................If this is so, then how can we be rostered for over 20 hours flying within 3 consecutive days re MAN CPT??

Or go on, am I missing something?

[Oldflyer]

I think Table D applies only to Helicopters.

[miles offtarget]

Sorry to interject on a company specific thread ( I drive the 737 for another low cost operator), however I have a little experience of Globespan and just wanted to wish you the very best of luck.

Secondly, we have just emerged from a period of balloting over industrial action at the company I work for and I have to say that if you are looking for support from BALPA, then don't expect too much. Many of us too are joining the IPA, myself amongst them, however most impressive of all were the TGWU.

I was suspicious that they wouldn't be keen to assist a profession that the public may consider overpaid and elitist, however that did not seem to be the case at all. Naturally they do not have the specialists in aviation law that BALPA have, but they seemed genuinely keen, and certainly able to buy the best legal advice as necessary. As I say, for all their expertise, BALPA were as much use as chocolate ailerons.

Just a thought, and as I say good luck.

Cheers,

MoT

[angelorange]

In fact IPF now includes IPA membership and costs £11 per month no matter your salary with legal cover up to £20k and free legal helpline. For extra cover eg: worldwide incl USA £125k they charge an extra £147pa or £12.25 per mth. So total around £24/mth.

All the best.

[Appetite4destruction]

Fellow Globespan 767 pilots,


Agree with all that has been said so far.

I think we should CHIRP all incidents of absurd rest arrangements and the blatant disregard for FTL.

Is it not the case that when the PT and FG were delivered from Air New Zealand they had proper rest facilities, which were then removed to make way for an extra Business Class seat. I guess Globespan have shown from the outset that crew rest onboard is not a priority!

A4D.

[Farty Flaps]

Oh dear,
Dirty washing in public.:oh:
Guess the grass wasnt so much greener after all.:bored: Charter is charter ad nauseum
Nasty little short haul managers. Whats a 767 expert on their third job in three years to do? Ho hum.
AAI,AAE,XL,GSM, and god knows who else before.Maybe even JET2 if they fill the tanks of their 757s.All getting it wrong if these transient 76/longhaul experts are to be believed. Who is next for the honour of their wisdom ZOOM?
I refer you to the third line of this post again:E

[Pontious]

Farty Flaps

And your point is....?

:ok:

[Scottie]

This time last year all was fantastic in the GSM camp.....what happened?

Forget the TGWU, forget IPF. Only BALPA has the know how to sort your problems out.

If it's that bad dip into your pockets and spend the money, New members to BALPA get a 50% discount for two years.

TGWU, IPF and BALPA are only as good as it's members and I think you'll have difficulty getting the contractors onboard.

If you're serious BALPA is the only choice (and I was a member of the IPA for many years). Scrimping on saving a few pounds here and there on your representation will show in the results.

My subs to BALPA cost me £62 a month in easyJet and it is worth every penny. However I get the tax back on these subs so it doesn't really cost me £62 a month.....As an FO in easyjet it was about £30 less tax, divide by two for two years and BALPA works out cheaper than the IPF.

Here's hoping you improve things :D

[Nil further]

There is a very experienced ex EZY BALAP CC negotiator in GSM on the 767 i believe .A cracking guy with a real understanding of scheduling in pariticular.
Could he be the man to organise something ?

[pdg75]

From what I hear Globespan are aware of the disatisfaction and the Fleet Mgr will be discussing the problems with JF and importantly TD to see what they are willing to do.

My mate at Globespan tells me that SS and BM are flying the route today so problems should be highlighted first hand and hands could be untied.

[weiss5]

Well said Bongo Bill:D

We are not just fighting against BAD management we are also fighting against the yes men!!(pilots) to whom go along with all.

When I refuse to comply with illegal rostering etc... crewing simply find a yes man!:ugh:

[Bongo Bill]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your various messages of support both public and private. However, so that this does not drift into a generalised moaning session with no practical outcome, let me propose the next course of action.

I have each of the B767 pilots email addresses. I will send each of you an email from myself, using my pprune name, asking for 3 pieces of information.

1. Are you employed or contract.
2. What is your union preference.
3. Do I have permission to forward your email to the union.

I will send to you all the results of the vote for which union to use, as well as posting it on this forum.

I would then ask that once we have everyone's union preference, we stick together and go with the majority vote.

The issue over contract pilots and employees is a moot point. The union representation is decided upon by the percentage of permanent employees that are members. The number of contractors is immaterial. One would then hope that the benefits achieved for the employees, such as a scheduling agreement and choice of hotels, would be enjoyed by the contractors as well.

At this stage I am not sure if we can divide the pilot body into seperate groups of short and longhaul, or by fleet. I would ask the B737 guys reading this to try and co-ordinate some form of action similar to what I propose for their fleet.

So then colleagues, the next you will hear from me is by email. Please spread the word and reply to my email promptly. Then we can show our management that, actually no, they cannot treat us like this.

All the best!

[wheelbarrow]

Just to add my twopence.

I joined from a reputable operator for the chance of flying longhaul on a fairly modern piece of kit.

What I get is in the words of Catherine Tates OAP character " What a load of ole schit"

When I joined it was prior to the AIndia contract and was good to fair with not alot of work loads of Standbys which suited me as i live close to my base and 4 trips a month albeit 25 hour trips.

We were fed with ideas of BGI Vegas etc and could happen yet.

But Torontos there n back absolute crazy, When I operate a 8 hour flight the least I expected was to get off and overnight with the usual fun along with it. NOT to proceed thru a terminal and check in again in an economy seat to position back to UK. Utter CRAP

Now we have bullets to Capetown to content with.

I want this company to do well but some horrors have been happenng.

Real Time bullying
Constant Fatigue
Dread going to work
Jumped up Supervisors
Flawing of Cap371
Regular Discretion
Chaotic Crewing at times
Mnagement apparent hate of Crew
Insecure People who use Draconian Methods to abuse Cabin Crew
List is endless

Ive been around a while and have noticed how everyone seems to need "approval" from some dip in someother department to assist us.

WE are adults and a hell of alot more proffessional than credited for. You give us a 767 and then dont trust us with treating passengers as they should be treated.

Grow Up GlobespanK if you want staff and want to survive past April.

Think about it..........

[Bongo Bill]

Dear Fellow Aviators and Brothers in Arms on the 737 Fleet:


On consultation with persons much wiser than myself; I feel that we all must move forward as one whole pilot body within the company.

With this in mind, can I ask all B737 pilots to send their answers to the questions noted above, with the addition of their fleet, to the email address below.

[email protected]

Once I have received the answers from enough pilots I will publish the results. Please note, I will forward the email that I have sent to the B767 pilots once I receive a complete mailing list for all pilots on the 737 fleet.

For the benefit of everyone; the situation legally is thus:

We must have 10% recognition for the Union to approach the Company to ask if they will recognise the Union voluntarily.

If they decline, then we must push for 50% recognition plus 1. However, we can ballot for a vote with less than 50%, as long as people vote yes to recognition, but this allows for a narrower mandate for the Union to work towards.

We may be able to divide the company into fleets, with regards to recognition, thereby only requiring 50% of the 767 fleet to join the Union. However, I say may , as to date it has not been done before. This is obviously not desirable as our colleagues on the 737 fleet have issues as well.

I will leave you with these thoughts. Thank you to everyone who has emailed me so far.

Safe Flying

[Bongo Bill]

Dear Colleagues:

First of all, thank you for all the emails so far. Please keep them coming. We all really need to make the effort on this one occasion to make a difference. This won't work unless we all stick together.

For the pilots on the B737, if you have not received an email from me it is because you were not on my mailing list or your email was refused by Hotmail. However, I would still appreciate if you could take the time and send me an email to the address above with your preference of Union.

Come on guys! Lets show them we mean business!

Bill

[763 jock]

Just out of interest, how is the CPT trip scheduled? Interested as we do some fairly long range stuff with the 76.

[LeadingEdge]

Folks, I am with you on this, but I lost my nerves and resigned from GSM...good luck!

LE

[Luckyguy]

Leading Edge

We all have to make a decision based on our personal circumstances and I'm sure that you have done that. It is always sad to see another "fly the loft" because of something that could have been changed. I wish you well..... As an aside, did you resign recently or have you been gone a while ? Purely for marketing purposes !!

I have replied to Bongo Bills request for information in order that the pilots can "make a stand" and would urge others to do the same, so that we may exert some pressure on the management to think again about how they treat their workforce.

Holding firm.......:=

[LeadingEdge]

I resigned very recently....And yes, the grass IS greener at other places....

[NG708]

I'm afraid I'm with Leading Edge on this one.

Resigned a while ago after seeing the problems pile up and start my new job soon. Having been through this with a previous company, arguing over duty times, hotel rooms etc., I didn't want to sit around and watch it all get messy again. Fortunate enough to be able to move on to a company that talks to it's crews and gives the shorthaul guys a chance at longhaul.

Have to say the straw that broke the camel's back came when I listened to my colleague some weeks ago being threatened with discliplinary action, simply for requesting a hotel room for each of us on a 14 hour split day stop! :ugh:

Good luck BB and all the rest of you. GSM has the makings to be a fine company.

[BlueVikingFlyer]

Resigned also last year. Stand firm because no matter what GSM management say, the airline can not be operated without pilots and replacements can not be found now !!

Good luck BVF :D

[pdg75]

Why dont you form a local pilot council and have informal discussions with the management.

Before the situation is esclated it would be worth your while to go through logical steps before actions are taken which could be largely tackled/aired on a more 'friendly' footing. Their seems to have been little cohesion about efforts to make mgmt aware previously.

If you then do not get satisfaction then perhaps you take it down the more confrontational route.

I would always urge caution before rushing into a confrontational mode when artfully presented logic and reasonableness can get things back on an even keel.

[Bongo Bill]

Dear Colleagues;

First of all, thank you for all of the emails, and more importantly the emails of support and encouragement.

I did not start this campaign to become the company Arthur Scargill, nor do I have any ill intentions towards the company. I merely felt the need to channel our collective feelings into one combined force, so that we can achieve something. Some of you have replied to my email with a terse response, saying you cannot reply to an annonymous email, and will not, until I identify myself. Well to those people I simply say, please take my place and canvass the pilot body with the blessing of the management. I wish you well.

Anyway, an update on the voting:

I have received 48 replies to my email so far, from the 98 pilots that I canvassed.

Votes from Permanent Pilots

BALPA: 27
IPF: 5

Contract Pilots:

BALPA: 10
IPF: 1

3 people have advised me they have resigned but wish us all well.
2 people have refused to divulge their preferences.


Therefore, thus far 77% of the people that have voted have opted for BALPA. I am aware that this figure is taken from about 35% of the pilot community, but it is a start.

Please keep emailing me and I will update the figures as and when I get more information.

Safe Flying

BB

P.S I would appreciate more reponses from the 767 guys as the majority of the votes so far are from the 737 guys.

P.P.S Those pilots that have voted for the TGWU (2); I have added your votes to BALPA because I have been advised that the TGWU are no longer accepting applications from pilots.

All those who have not emailed, please forward union preference to: [email protected]

[Appetite4destruction]

BB,

Keep up the good work!


A4D (GSM 767 pilot)

[On-MarkBob]

Hi All,

Just to clear one thing up, SS and BM did not operate the flight back from CPT. True they did the minimum rest thing, but they were down there to carry out an audit of operations and flew back business class!

With regard to the unions, I have found that none of them are any good and I have had personal experience.

When I was with another company, during a dispute, the BALPA did absolutely nothing. The sat on the sidelines and watched as my rights were continually ignored or abused and ACAS protocol was ignored and even the company’s own employer manual was blatantly ignored. After that I joined another company and subscribed to the TGWU. Following another difference of opinion the TGWU at least turned up but it became apparent that they did not have the qualifications or calibre to deal with the problem. Airline pilots are obviously not their bag and they are more comfortable with bus conductors or railway porters etc. I took over the case myself and bought a good employment solicitor who made a settlement deal of over twenty times what the TGWU tried to get me to take.

The IPA faired no better, I have never been a member but my brother has. When Excalibur went out of business he went to see them to find out where he stood and they suggested that he consider another career!!

The Unions, who are supposed to support us in fact do nothing but produce copulas quantities of hot air and carbon dioxide that in my opinion rivals the emissions of the entire British Airways fleet! To make my point I give you their track record so far in dealing with another pertinent problem, that of the disgraceful way we are currently being treated by airport security at the moment. I think we all know what the arguments are regarding that, yet the BALPA sit on the fence and continue to add nothing to anything but global warming. They are but a bunch of parasites!!

The way forward I think is to start our own Flight Crew Council, which encompasses both the pilots and the cabin crew, since they are just as much, if not more so, affected by what is going on. Any subs could be used to purchase an insurance policy for legal representation if such becomes necessary.

The way forward is to prove to the company the value of goodwill and the financial shortfalls that exist due to some of the decisions being made. Eg. Leaving the aircraft on the ground in CPT for 30 hours a week when in fact sense dictates that if the aircraft were to return to the UK it could be used for something else in that time, or made available for sub-charter or at least be available to the engineers to sort out some of the cabin defects mounting up, in readiness for the forthcoming summer season.

There is a way of setting up a Flight Crew Council that would not leave anyone vunerable to victimisation by the company. PM me for more details if you are interested.

Let us never forget the most important people in this, our customers. Without them there is no company anyway. The misery currently being displayed is bound to have an effect on the 'product' and it is vital that this be sorted in the least possible time, since we never get a second chance to make a first impression.

The low cost airline busines is particularly cut-throat. Aircraft operating costs are about the same thus so are the profits. The difference that seperates one company from another thus is simply down to the good-will of the staff and the company must learn this lesson and fast!!

In the words of the man from Wynwith who employs many of us. "By the end of this year there will only be two kinds of aircraft operator, those with the pilots and those without." The company must, therefore, decide what kind of aircraft operator they wish to be!!

[Scottie]

On-MarkBob,
The same arguments you've stated were used by many in easyJet as an excuse not to join BALPA.

However BALPA is only as good as its members because the company council is comprised of members. I'm not saying BALPA is perfect, far from it.

People slate BALPA but all you're slating are the individual contributions that members make to try and improve the conditions for all.

You need access to legal information and a host of other things when conducting negotiations, representing members on disciplinary matters etc which you get through your subs with BALPA. A small company like GSM with only a couple of hundred members would soon have it's budget spent if you do things on your own.

I've been in a previous company with a Flight Crew Council who achieved the square root of naff all. Not because the FCC didn't try, just that the company ignored them. Unless you can back up your discussions with a strike threat you won't be taken seriously.

Food for thought.

[On-MarkBob]

Hi Scottie,

First of all I’d like to know when it was when BALPA ever called for strike action outside of BA? I don’t think our management is exactly quaking with fear.

Secondly, I would like to see some form of representation for all flight crew and not just the pilots. In my humble opinion it is high time the cabin crew were recognised as a profession themselves. Over the past year I have seen the cabin crew work their socks off and build a dam good reputation for the airline, only for it to be trashed by the actions of the company management. Eg. Business class passengers travelling to Orlando non-stop in plush 767 comfort, then having to return to the UK economy class on a 737 with a stop at St. Johns.

The golden rules are being broken:-


If you don’t look after your customers, somebody else will.
If you don’t look after your staff, they won’t look after your customer.
You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
What would BALPA do about that? Ans. Nout! The company would simply tell them to mind their own business.

What the company needs is a positive united front that can enter into a professional dialogue with the management, with positive arguments that, where possible, lays down financial benefit for the company. I personally would like to see the accounts for crew travel and Hotac, I cannot believe the way it is being managed is any way economical, and even though the idiot in charge thinks he’s saving money (which I doubt) the goodwill within the ranks of the aircrew is, by his actions, being seriously eroded. (see rule 2). It is hard to put a value on goodwill, until there is none left. They need to understand that making a profit is not about screwing the crews, but having a reliable and happy workforce! Amber Airways was bankrupted when the staff gave up being flexible. History is repeating itself here.

We shouldn’t need to ‘go on strike’, and even a good union wouldn’t call a strike until the management was in possession of all the facts. We don’t have to wait for BALPA to do that, we can do it now!! Militant action at this stage would just see the management dig their heals in. They must be able to believe that we are working for them, if they are to take us seriously. In the mean time we do our jobs by the rules and if those rules mean that things don’t go as they planned, then it’s not our fault but theirs and when they see that for themselves they might start to listen.

Did I read that BALPA membership was now £60 per month? Christ, that’s £720 per year, many of us can insure our house and our car for that. A good legal insurance policy would cost a quarter of that!!

[NG708]

ONB said " I would like to see some form of representation for all flight crew and not just the pilots."

ONB - they already have this. Their union is called Amicus and does a good job of representing it's members. Many of the more senior cabin crew are members and I have often seen them trying to sign up the newer ones too. Unfortunately some of them suffer from one problem - too apathetic. Having watched one senior try and convince a new hostie to sign up, having explained all the benefits she'd get for £8, was told - "well I can't afford that can I!"

BA is a prime example of how a strong cabin crew can get what they want. I think the pilots at GSM have enough to work for already. However, yes in an ideal world. Also of course Ops staff should also be licensed and unionised too.

TD claims to know what he is doing. Whether he does, or he is allowing himself to be led by the nose by others, the results as you have said, are very obvious.

When I arrived in EDI nearly 2 years ago to join the company, even the taxi driver told me what a good firm they were. I doubt he'd say that now.
I think a lot of people have a misconception about what BALPA, or any union actually do. You obviously don't know that you now get tax relief on your BALPA subs, so it really only costs a third.

What you need to do is phone them up and tell them to come to MAN and GLA to give a presentation, as they did my last firm. At the end of the meeting we'd convinced everyone who wasn't in, to join up for a trial period. As far as I know, none of those people quit.

But as long as people find an excuse not to join or do anything unilaterally, nothing will change.

[Scottie]

OMB,

First off BALPA costs 1% of your basic salary. However there is now tax relief on that 1%. If you're new to BALPA then membership is 0.5% for two years (I think). Perhaps someone could clarify how much tax relief is available.

Secondly you misunderstand me, I was not calling for militant action, far from it. As the easyJet CC have shown use all available resources to negotiate with your management, but carry a big stick.

We overwhelmingly rejected a crap pay deal and with a high percentage of membership stating via a secret ballot that they would strike if necessary we got a much much improved deal. It normally never comes to a strike. The threat is enough. No threat = being walked over.

For 1% less tax relief a year if BALPA can help their members to an improved pay deal that is more than 1% less tax relief I believe that 1% less tax as being well spent.

So far BALPA hasn't let me down.

[Nil further]

Well looks like you guys have nothing to worry about as there is a nice statement from your "dear leader" in the Sunday Times today explaining that GSM made £3.1 million last year and has 21 aircraft !
A payrise and bonus for the lads and lasses must be on the table with spectacular results/growth like that.


*must get on to Jethros as they seem to think GSM has 10 or 11 aircraft.

[cunningplanmylord]

Dear All,

I am about to start with FGS very soon and I am reading this thread with much interest and concern.

When I spoke to senior management at my interview they seemed to be aware of the problem and especially with regard to deadheading and duration of trips away that this would be resolved in the summer programme with the inclusion of more aircraft and routes. Does anyone think this will happen ??

Best Wishes to all

CPML

[Bongo Bill]

Dear Colleagues:

Once again, thank you for the steady stream of votes that are coming in as well as the words of encouragement. I know we will really make things happen on this occasion as long as we all stick together.

I have received quite a few emails from guys who were not on my original mailing list enquiring whether they were able to take part in the vote. This vote is open to all GSM pilots whether contract or permanent, so that I can gauge the preference of the majority with regards to Union recognition. The only reason some pilots were not on the mailing list is because the list I was passed was a little bit out of date.

Anyone who has not received an email from me should send their union preference to:

[email protected]

We really need your vote!

If anyone has a current list of 737 pilots email addresses, I would appreciate a copy so that I might resolve the issue.
737 Email list received with thanks.
VOTING UPDATE:

So far I have received 62 replies to my survey:

Votes from Permanent Pilots

BALPA: 33
IPF: 7

Contract Pilots:

BALPA: 13
IPF: 3

4 people have advised me they have resigned but wish us all well.
2 people have refused to divulge their preferences.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I plan to close the vote on the 27th Jan. I will then forward the results of the vote to each and every GSM pilot whether they took part in the vote or not. Contained in the email will be a link to the chosen union, a break down of the costs and instructions on how to join. I will then respectfully ask that in the collective interests of our future within the company that we all join that union and put our personal opinions aside. I know this will be hard for some to swallow, judging by the opinions expressed in some of the emails, but I feel we MUST work together as a team, and hopefully the benefits will follow.

I will also include in the email posters to be displayed in each of the crew rooms with the outcome of the vote and the instructions on how to join the chosen Union. I would then optimistically hope for Union recognition by the company for the start of the summer season. Imagine a summer season protected from the excesses of the management by a scheduling agreement and a company council!!! WE CAN DO IT!

Okay Guys and Gals, that's all from me for now. Keep spreading the word and sending the votes. Let's keep the momentum going and stay positive; we really can make a difference to our workplace!

BB


P.S I accept the argument for a Flight Crew Council, but cannot see the current Chairman ceding to the will of mere pilots (or employees). I believe it will take more than a rational mature dialogue to get things done or else I wouldn't be writing this post. If he listened to any of the pilot management at the moment we wouldn't be where we are now. Our Chairman's attitude is blinded by the commercial department, and until such a time as the pilot body have collective teeth, that will continue.

[chikenscanfly]

Bill Bongo and all other GSMers...

Just want to say from an outsider, good luck in your pursuit!...
coming from ryr, we know too well the stink of what youre in...

[Donkey Duke]

Did I get that right? The flights to CPT are out and backs or turns? I see that YYZ was like that, with one crew Dead heading in the back each way(horrible), but is that the same for CPT? How about Sanford? Also, where do you fly the Air India 767 wet lease? Which cities? And, is there a small STN base for the 737? I see there is a daily 736 to TFS, but is that it? How often do STN crews fly that? Do they go anywhere else? Cheers.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I joined GSM at the start contracting on the 737 fleet, but moved on at the end of the first year. I was a bit sorry to go, as it was a happy company whilst I was there. Shame to see it going down hill:( . But good luck to you all.

[LeadingEdge]

Guys, have you had a chance to read the new memo regarding the alternate base? Seems like everyone will be "dual-based" by now...

cheers

LE

[NG708]

Interesting, as in 2005, the Fleet Man issued a memo in response to rumours of such, categorically stating that this would NOT happen:bored:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

According to the web site the MAN-CPT-MAN schedule is

MAN-CPT 1525-0400
CPT-MAN 1935-0755

[Luckyguy]

Did I get that right? The flights to CPT are out and backs or turns? I see that YYZ was like that, with one crew Dead heading in the back each way(horrible), but is that the same for CPT? How about Sanford? Also, where do you fly the Air India 767 wet lease? Which cities? And, is there a small STN base for the 737? I see there is a daily 736 to TFS, but is that it? How often do STN crews fly that? Do they go anywhere else? Cheers.

Donkey, the Cape Town flights go on the schedule above and are minimum rest downroute, operating both ways. :eek:
Toronto, a whole crew position out on Thursday and operate back on Friday evening/Saturday morning. The crew that operate out, then dead head home after a 3 hour turn at YYZ. They get off, clear customs/immigration etc and then check back in as pax. :=
Air India wet lease routes are BOM and AMD.
SFB is operating currently only once a week.
STN does indeed have a small base with a large number of pilots who do very little. Presently go only to TFS.:bored:

The icons say it all !!!

[captaintrigger]

The Stansted-Larnaca has been on sale for less than 72 hours and has alredy been pulled!!

Never Mind!!

CT

[763 jock]

Mr Angry, does that mean the aircraft sits on the ramp at CPT all day?
Cheers

[Luckyguy]

Indeed it does, twice a week, on Sunday and Tuesday. That's a good use of the asset, eh ? 30 hours doing nothing !!

And to make matters worse, the schedule was changed to a night flight, from a daytime return flight after a 3.5 hour turn, so all the passengers had their flight times amended..... I know, because walking through the terminal, I suffered the wrath of some of them, unhappy at the whole shebang.

Anyway, it remains to be seen, what the outcome of it all will be. :ugh:

[763 jock]

Looking at that schedule....ouch. Report at 1425Z MAN, checkout at CPT 0430Z so total duty of 14h05M. Report at 1835Z for another duty of 13H50.:mad:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Looking at that schedule....ouch. Report at 1425Z MAN, checkout at CPT 0430Z so total duty of 14h05M. Report at 1835Z for another duty of 13H50.:mad:

So a 1425 report on 1 sector (with a heavy crew to negate the ETOP rule) =
13 hrs = 0325 last land. Therefore they need 1hr 05 mins extension by presumably in flight relief?.
However on the return (acclimatised as only 2 hrs different in CPT) the max FDP is 12.00 hrs so 1835z + 12.00 = 0635 last land so a 1hr 20 min in flight relief required. So I guess the question would be is the seat provided acceptable and screened from the punters?.
I would also point out the rest period is noted to be min rest, not really its a lot more, and falls into a much better rest period than a 18-30 hr rest period, which in the eyes of the CAA, the sleep experts and many many Pilots is to be avoided. Clearly if the aircraft is not needed in MAN why bring it straight back, this is nothing new look at other L/H Airlines!. :\

[Stan Woolley]

Mr Angry from Purley

Spoken like someone who knows all about the theory and nothing about the practise. You really haven't a clue have you?

[weiss5]

How can we improve conditions at GSM when Pilots take the aircraft to cpt WITHOUT sufficient crew rest seating:ugh: The last flight to cpt the crew went with econ seats as rest:mad: for FD and NO seat rest area for CC.
SHAME SHAME SHAME:confused:

[cunningplanmylord]

Surely someone must ASR this, or at the very least flight report it.
CAA would be interested to hear this im sure.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Mr Angry from Purley
Spoken like someone who knows all about the theory and nothing about the practise. You really haven't a clue have you?

Stan i'm not saying its right just pointing a few facts.

In theory and practice , crew will only get one chance at a sleep be it 11 or 14 hrs rest. 18-30 rest periods check Chirp.
If there is no screened seat then something is amiss, call CAA Flight Ops Policy on 01293 567171 ask ask for the chap with the same surname as Gordon at 11 Downing Street. Maybe there is a variation en force unlikely I think :\

[Stan Woolley]

Fair enough Mr A.

All I know from looking at that trip is that I would be totally knackered by the time I landed back in the UK, particularly without a proper rest area. The fact is you will be trying to sleep through the day with the associated light/noise/ interruptions between two very long night duties and I at least always found that difficult to do.

BTW I've never seen a UK 767 with a proper crew rest area.

[Banzai Eagle]

How can we improve conditions at GSM when Pilots take the aircraft to cpt WITHOUT sufficient crew rest seating:ugh: The last flight to cpt the crew went with econ seats as rest:mad: for FD and NO seat rest area for CC.
SHAME SHAME SHAME:confused:

I'll mention this to as CAA inspecting officer for you i know weiss5

[Mr Moustache]

How can we improve conditions at GSM when Pilots take the aircraft to cpt WITHOUT sufficient crew rest seating:ugh: The last flight to cpt the crew went with econ seats as rest:mad: for FD and NO seat rest area for CC.
SHAME SHAME SHAME:confused:

Funny, sounds a bit like the B737 Hurghada flights of the summer of 2005 (our first attempt at long haul!). No proper in-flight rest facilities etc. I thought the company realised how much unhappiness this caused and were not going to try it on again. Perhaps everything was fogotten over the intervening year or so. :rolleyes:

[weiss5]

Management sill no closer to having eye on the ball.... 3 more pilots resign:ugh: seems like they are still seeing the trees and not the forest:hmm:

[Barnaby Rudge]

weiss5,seems to me from your posts that English is not your first language so did you came here for a contract,were you told lies at your interview,if so leave and claim compensation from your employer,if not either stay or leave,your views are not those of people I fly with on the 737 so don't assume to speak for everybody.
PocaHostie,you won't be poking me f#tboyslim,heres hopeing the Ryanair assessment works out for you as Korean obviously didnt want you.
BongoBill,pity you didnt include cabin crew,but a lot of the flightdeck at Glasgow and Edinburgh didn't even reply to you and asked why didnt you do your survey in the open?

[NG708]

Barnaby Rudge,
BongoBill,pity you didnt include cabin crew
Why should he when they have a perfectly good union of their own?
You don't say what you do, but from your profile, I presume you are cabin crew. In which case why not get in touch with your union and make some changes rather than slate others for trying to.:yuk:

[weiss5]

hey Barnaby,

English may not be my first language! What has that to do with anything? Seems like you have little command of the english language! Clearly you cannot understand what i have wrote. I am not 73 you fool:mad: so P****** back into your little whole.

[Barnaby Rudge]

What a nice foreign gentleman you seem to be weiss5,I'm so glad you are not on my airplane,just stay where you are or leave but dont lump all globespan crew in with your problems.
And the word is hole not whole you silly man.

[On-MarkBob]

First of all, weiss5, many of us would be proud to have a second language spoken and written as well as you obviously can. You have reason to be proud. Don't rise to the derogatory comments of others. We are supposed to be professional people and this kind of comment and backbiting is not required in this thread. Is it not surprising that it is so difficult to organise proper representation when you cannot seem to join as a coherent and popular front?

Might I suggest that we keep to the subject and useful input.

[Jetdriver]

My thin ice alert is flashing , and I see one or two people skating out there. :=

[Dash-7 lover]

BONGO BILL


SOUNDS LIKE YOU NEED A SCHEDULING AGREEMENT SIMILAR TO THE ONE AT BA CONNECT - and look what's happening there!

[Barnaby Rudge]

weiss5 I apologise that you take offence. You joined as a non english pilot, if you dont like things here you can leave but pilots in globespan arent all up in arms. Like us they dont like 4 sectors and positioning in taxis,maybe different where you are but here were happy.
pocahostie how paranoid are you? wing commander g is the manager, now me ? If Ive not made any posts maybe nothing interested me, this thread interests me because it relates to people I work with,including you. Everytime you come into the crew room we shudder, hows that for CRM.:*

[haggis hurler]

"fgs are presently considering an RPI increase in salaries"

The futures bright, the futures Orange!

[Climbforever]

GSM has informed that they are welcoming an internally selected pilot commitee.
Bongo Bill, any info about how many joins to BALPA?

[Banzai Eagle]

haggis, how much of a payrise are ezy getting then?

[beenarround]

I have been waiting and hoping for some recognition from the 4th floor that the only experienced long haul manager they have has something to offer.I have been disapointed. He is sent off to far flung places in order that they can perform their evil deeds without hindrance. He was not consulted prior to the introduction of the CPT min rest. Despite his representation to the hierarchy after he experienced the ordeal first hand it continues. The commercial dept runs this airline without any constraint from the Flt Ops Dept
The union recognition thing is vital, but will take time.Congratulations on the progress so far.The T&G are indeed very powerful, but will not be interested in representing the pilot body if previous experience is anything to go by.From the numbers published BALPA is the obvious choice despite my personal abhorance for the organisation.
In the short term a withdrawl of good will might achieve some results.Unfortunately I think that there are still enough people who will do anything rendering that course of action less than ideal. Having said that, a refusal to undertake unreasonably long duties does not seem to meet with any hassle.If all of you who feel strongly enough say 'NO' to climbing in the back they will run out of 'yes men'. At the same time a crossing of the T's and dotting of the I's with a very blunt pencil on the CPT planning will definately hurt.What is the hotel in PMI?
Chirp is an extremely powerful organ and it really gets their attention when the ministry comes to call. The time scale is frighteningly fast when 'flight safety' is mentioned. In the min rest CPT this is clearly an issue.
At the same, time an ASR sent directly to the CAA seems to have the same effect. We no longer have a Flight Safety Officer as I understand it so the only way to retain annonymity is to go direct.
There are issues with escape routes over Tehran and Diverion fields in Africa which are just being swept under the carpet.
No one wants to harm the company's long term viability. Every time we go to work we are expected to perjure ourselves by signing a voyage report showing fictitious rest in a non existant crew rest area. If this is the only way the company can afford do the job is there any long term viability? With NG joining the India contract and the introduction of assorted leased AC and crews are they just running 'a virtual airline?
Finally, it doesn't do what it said on the tin shown to me not so long ago and that is very sad.It looks like the company is finally running out of the 6's it has been throwing since it started the long haul ops.Lets hope it doesn't come down to earth with too much of a bump!!

[Monarch Man]

CHIRP continues to be an effective tool at MON to bring the authorities focus to bear on questionable rostering endeavors.
I would suggest that you GSM boys and girls use this system as it was designed for this very reason.

[beenarround]

Dont forget the down time in SFB is over 24 hrs, and that was happening twice a week.Alltogether over three days down time per week. What does it cost to lease one of these beasts? The crews all do bullets and the hotac and allowances are less so thats all right then!!

[haggis hurler]

Disappointed but not surprised by the less than proactive response from BALPA, I have been a member for many years and paid my subs. What are they doing?

[haggis hurler]

No, I wasn't, what happened? Do tell.

[greenscreens]

Are Globespan struggling to employ? I bet they will now after this thread is read. I was contemplating joining as a direct entry captain.

......dont think I will bother now.

Good luck guys.

[Luckyguy]

That's interesting. What were the circumstances behind it, do you know ?

[LeadingEdge]

Are Globespan struggling to employ? I bet they will now after this thread is read. I was contemplating joining as a direct entry captain.

......dont think I will bother now.

Good luck guys.

Good decision you made. But in case you join, have everything in written what they promise you. At the same time, you will find out that communication is very poor between operations and flight crews. Always follow up on emails you send, as you might just simply not get an answer. The same goes with documents you send via email. I sent them my Disclosure Scotland form twice, and they told me a few weeks ago, that they never received it. After resending it, the same thing happened again.

The same goes with expenses. I sent in mine (via snail mail),and they rejected it, but "forgot" to tell me.

Overall, they need to work hard to improve their communication efforts, as it seems to be a one way road right now.

cheers

LE

[haggis hurler]

"gsm flightdeck delayed the gsm711 10th feb causing an over night stay at man for the pax"

How were BALPA involved? What did they do?

Its nearly 3 weeks since the vote for recognition, has anyone heard from BALPA?

[Walter D. Ned]

Afternoon all. Just delivered the wife to her wrestling class (advanced) and found myself confined to barracks so decided to look up prune for old time sake and lo and behold what do I find myself reading but reams and reams on this outfit which is now calling itself "Globespan" and it occurred to me that perhaps some of you now working for it or, worse still, some of you who might be thinking of "giving" your very hard earned or yet to be earned money for "training" to this or indeed to any outfit which has similar attitudes and abilities to this one and might not be aware of its recent history. So, set out hereunder are a few "pointers" which may or may not give you some insight into the "professionalism" of "Da Management" of the company which you are or may in the future have to deal with.

When myself and my colleagues worked for this outfit they called themselves Cougar Leasing Limited and were based at Stansted. Approximately two years after "Da Management" eventually managed to get the outfit up and running, the flight crews were informed by the head of flight operations that the company had "gone" and given the somewhat "erratic" management style not to mention the "abilities" of those who had become known, non too affectionately, as the "Cougar Cowboys", many of us employees were less than surprised that events had turned out as we had been informed they had by "Da Management". However, what we failed to comprehend was that when the head of flight operations told us that the company had "gone", that is exactly what he meant! The company had simply shut up shop in Stansted and "gone" up the road to Scotland where, with the benefit of a swift name change, they "morphed" themselves from Cougar into Globespan and opened up as "Scotland’s favourite airline"??!!!

Now, naturally, like any family moving house in "a bit of a hurry" a few "items" went "missing" and in the case of Cougar/Globespan it turned out to be the employees! Particularly, the flight crews who were "unfortunately mislaid" in the move along with their jobs, salaries, allowances and expenses, not to mention hopes and desires and of course the "trifling" matter of the thousands of pounds involved in the cost of a type rating and additional expenses incurred in gaining it and no salary for months on end for those who were "obliged" to pay for their rating!

However, dear reader, I'm delighted to tell you that the move wasn’t all bad news as "Da Management" to an individual and complete with their salaries, expenses and "management perks" managed to safely negotiate the perils of the A1 and arrived in Scotland without losing a single solitary manager in the process, which for this lot let me tell you, was quite a feat and "achieved", quite possibly, because for the first time in their lives they knew exactly what they were up to! Of course, once safely ensconced in Edinburgh it seemed "obvious" to "Da Management" that their hard working and much put upon flight crews "probably" would not really want their livelihoods back or their jobs back or their salaries or their expenses and it would be "easier" all round if "Da Management" simply went out and got a "bunch" of "new" pilots who would "naturally" have to pay for their own type ratings rather than the company having to go to all the "bother" of paying to type rate their existing pilots onto a new aircraft type and that is exactly what they did!! Of course the "exceptional" and "highly qualified" not to mention most secretive management pilots and their three pals were not subject either to the loss of their livelihoods or the pittance involved in type rating them onto the new aircraft type which was paid for by "Da Management". After all, the company "owed" these "individualists" much for the part they had played in this rather shabby little whizz. If ever there was a company and a job where that old adage of "you shouldn’t have joined if you can’t take a joke" rang true, this is the one.

So my two pennies worth for those who might be thinking of spending substantial sums of their own, or worse still, their bank manager’s money with this or any company with similar type attitudes to this one is to consider your every move very, very carefully indeed as it is utterly unrealistic to expect that any company which is unwilling or unable to spend money on training employees to do their jobs will adopt a more conscientious attitude toward any other aspect of your employ which, put very simply, means that you and yours will be the losers and that loss may well be total, everything, jobs, salaries the lot, as your colleagues who went before you have had to endure.

Should you however happen to be a Captain "downsizing" from a large professional airline and looking for something a little "edgy" to do as you don’t play golf but fancy the idea of seeing how the "other half" live or should you be loaded and don’t mind wasting a few tens of thousands of pounds and a couple of years of your life not to mention be treated like a total moron, then my friend, you may have found your spiritual home either with this outfit or indeed with any of its low cost, low standards, allies. So, if it’s for you, please go right ahead, fill your boots, enjoy yourself and jolly good luck to you. If, on the other hand, you have a mortgage to pay, a family to feed and regard yourself to be a professional airline pilot and are looking to enhance your career prospects, then my friend, there is, in my opinion, absolutely nothing of interest for you here. Rather as "bantermanter" says "keep your money and buy yourself a flash car" or you might like to consider taking yourself and the money that you were going to "give" to this outfit for a type rating to the races at Cheltenham, find yourself an outsider, something with three legs, a cough, an attitude problem and who is double jobbing with a milk round and put your last penny on it! If it does come in, you're rich and you won’t ever need to consider such a risky venture as a career in flying. If it fails are you any the worse off? At least, you’ll be able to say you’ve enjoyed yourself which most certainly will not be the case if you "give" your money to this type of operation in the hope of obtaining through hard work and effort, long term job prospects! If you want a career in flying, join a company which "simply" bonds you. That way you'll have nothing to beat yourself up over if you should find that, through absolutely no fault of either yours or your colleagues but rather due to what might be called an "avant-garde" management "style" the entire edifice comes down around your ears. Then at least, you can console yourself with the thought that "all" will suffer the pain and loss equally!!!

Some contributors have written about this outfit’s "terms & conditions" and while I sincerely hope that they are somewhat different to those endured at Cougar, it would seem more likely however that as a Cougar never changes its spots when push comes to shove (and believe me it will!) and with the behaviour this outfit and its management saying far more and showing in the clearest possible terms how they "value" their employees than could ever be written here, the employees will find that the modus operandi of globespan is, like all aspects of this company, identical to those employed when they called themselves Cougar, which, put bluntly, means that T's & C's are something of a moveable feast as far as the "unconnected" PAYE employees are concerned. In one article, a contributor writes of receiving "no pay rise". With respect, I would suggest that if you can hold on to your original salary you’ll be doing bloody well!! As Cougar Leasing Limited, some aircrew who joined having paid for their own type rating, accommodation and all expenses while training and of course no salary until, for whatever reason the Flight Operations Manager thought of came to pass, the end of training, the end of line training, the end of the world?!! The reasoning tended to be, how can one put it... "fairly nebulous", found that within a few weeks of going "on salary" the flight operations manager decided that "at least" two First Officers would have their salaries cut in half, regretfully, this "plan" couldn’t be "implemented" as the Cougar Cowboys were always short crewed!! (can you guess why??) but that never stopped the Flight Operations Manager scuttling around as a Caudal. At various stages during the "Cougar success story" individual flight crew members had their salaries "adjusted"by "Da Management" in order that as PAYE workers they could "help out the company"! Needless to say "Da Management" never saw the same necessity for any adjustment to their own salaries or indeed any other aspect of their farcical and diabolical behaviour.

So, what are the chances of Globespan succeeding? I would most respectfully suggest that they are exactly the same as those of Excalibur? Or Gill Air? Or Cougar or any of the other assorted riff-raff outfits that "Da Management" have already "managed", straight into the nearest ditch!

One final point... do not rely on the Authority, the Legislator or the British Airways Pilots Association coming to your aid. When this company was called Cougar and it decided to "emigrate" up the road to Scotland, it was not "hampered" in the slightest by rules or legislation.

Run far and run fast my friend. Chalk it up to experience. You will not make the same mistake again!

Humans have the dexterity to think and consider and to put a value on themselves and their efforts. What a shame to waste such abilities.

[weiss5]

TomCat111 no need to pick any brains. this airline is the worst airline i have worked for. i will soon leave when my next job starts (may..if i can wait that long):mad: I have tried to put up and hope all would change. I give up! so many things are wrong here and nobody seems to care:ugh: the yes men are slowly winning:D i am only talking of 767 operation but i am sure the 737 would be the same.

Lots of jobs about look elseware.. because we all are. going to work now is a sad event:mad: :mad: :mad:

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Walter D.Ned,

Made for good reading, VERY interesting stuff, certainly made me think twice about submitting a CV.

Just wish the pilot fraternity would get a backbone and say "NO" to all these airlines which are now DEMANDING you have to pay for your type rating-If there were to be some kind of pilot revolt, the airlines would be forced to pay for training as in the past...

Most of us would be happy to be bonded, which in its self is a form of paying, but all these schemes at the moment are all aimed at getting as much money out of you as poossible-Someone somewhere is getting rich on the back of it, including the training organisations!

JUST SAY NO!!!!! (Wasn't that Zammo Maguire in Grange Hill back in the 80's?)

[weiss5]

anyone know the legal requirment for issue of roster!! again no roster = no plan for next month = family problems again. why can this company get away mit this:}

[Mr Angry from Purley]

weiss
7 days notice of days off according to cap371 :\

[flybe.com]

CAT 1 -

Just wish the pilot fraternity would get a backbone and say "NO" to all these airlines which are now DEMANDING you have to pay for your type rating

There are hundreds that wish the same, me included, but could you honestly say that, in an interview, you would stand up and be counted and say no to one of these Companies knowing full well that the next guy in the queue is going to say yes and get the job you wanted?

As for me, I simply wouldn't apply to such a Company in the first place. :=

[5552N0426W]

Walter D Ned
I read your post with interest but I don't think you can equate them with Gill Airways.
Yep they had their ups and downs but it was one of the best Companies I worked for.
Happy days:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Until it went bust...........

Always the sign of a great company.:}

[parcelpuppy]

5552N,
I think what Walter De Ned refers to by including Gill Airways is not so much that Company, but suggesting anyone with a greivance,owed money,considering joining or leaving GSM, just makes the connection with the common denominator between Gill, Cougar and Globescum.

Walter is right on the money with what he says.

All those who warned of the Globespan con and the dubious future of its dodgy management and how ordinary crew would eventually get ****** will be proved correct.

****** in a similar way to the ex Cougar employees who are still trying to get justice from 17th May 2003.
If any of you want the dirt from that period email [email protected].