Emirates - New Conditions [Archive]

Chimbu chuckles

15th Jan 2007, 14:43

I think it a little naive to expect management to shovel out a huge 'fix all' payrise...that has never happened in the history of industry let alone the aviation industry...as much as it would be nice to see it just won't happen.

What it does do is signal that recognition exists of a problem...if this payrise doesn't solve the problem you'll see another...if it does you won't.

Any manager worth the title will only ever increase T&Cs incrementally until he reaches a point that crews his aeroplanes.

It should be obvious that we have passed the bottom of the sine curve in the last year or so and T&Cs are heading back up again at long last after a good 10 years when that has not been the case.

Where I work we got a substantial payrise last year and the consensus is we will still be scratching to crew the fleet expansions..inevitably if that happens we will get another little payrise and another until we do crew the fleet appropriately.

Every mate I have scattered around the widebody fleets of Asia and the ME says the same thing...they aren't gonna be able to crew the fleet expansions planned for the next year or three.

My, and their attitude is "great!!" Failing a economic downturn the news is all good...relax and enjoy the ride!

Rather than slagging off the payrise as too little, too late why not just accept it graciously and look forward to the next one...but in a realistic fashion.

theidler

15th Jan 2007, 15:30

Hard to know where to start in deconstructing the above post.

It shows no knowledge of the particular problems or solutions at Emirates, in particular the comment that Ts & Cs are on the rise.

Perhaps the poster should shuffle back to his impressively prolific portfolio at D & G GA & Q and Jetblast.

Fart Master

15th Jan 2007, 16:02

Yeah, Unfortunately the raise will just about cover inflation, not to mention the fact that the USD is tanking:ok:

fly737

15th Jan 2007, 16:13

1) Last year approx 8% in May, this year 6%...that's the first bad news. (6% not even covering the Dubai rocketing living cost):}
2) Pilots committed to fly as much as they can to get the 35-45 DHS per block hours, nothing during your holidays guys.... (Very clever from a management point of view):}
3) UA and SA, not for everyone…:}
4) Effective 1st May, why not immediately.:ugh:
GOOD NEWS……the wind is blowing on the pilot’s side again?:) :)

Chimbu chuckles

15th Jan 2007, 16:46

Thanks Theidler deconstruct away.:E

I spend enough time in DXB each month enroute other destinations and have enough friends working there to have a realistic idea of what living/working there entails.

So you don't consider 25% odd NET over two consecutive years significant or a change for the better? I know you guys get indirect taxed to death but then so do most people in most countries...you don't pay income tax YET.

I agree it probably isn't enough...it aint nearly enough to entice me from my nice Boeings here to your nice Boeings there...I am not sure anything would actually...but lets be realistic shall we?

What would you have considered fair...40%?

I think in time it might get to that...all I am suggesting is that to expect airline management to award a huge 'cure all' payrise that satisfies everyones expectations is to deny life's realities.

So now I'll shuffle off back to fun topics...and leave you to your developing ulcer:ok:

ekslave

15th Jan 2007, 16:53

Games over boys.
A token guesture from timmy before he retires to his country estate. It's time for him to bale out now before it falls apart around his ears. Lets face it, it's going to get more difficult for manages now - they might even have to do something to stop the rot.
Better to get out after collecting a big fat bonus and leave it to the locals to sort out, after all they have been well trained.

Well and truely a third world airline now folks.

luftmaj

15th Jan 2007, 23:01

Interesting readin material folks. I was wondering why they started inviting Regional pilots suddenly. I know every airline has its problems, but I find it interesting that they don't even bother to provide transportation on their own airplanes to the interview!

Marooned

15th Jan 2007, 23:42

At least now they have shown their hand early and we can probably be certain that this is the best they will come up with. We can now compare like with like when looking at other options outside the sandpit. The sad thing is that they are probably tapping themselves on the back thinking what a great package it is which just proves how out of touch they really are. And as for AAR 'reviewing' the other parts of 'the package', remember the last review he did? Nothing changed.

They could, just could have asked US for our opinions in an attempt to come up with something resembling a more constructive package.

I think that this will prove to be own goal for EK.

fatbus

16th Jan 2007, 04:03

And what would you have told them? If you say 30 - 40 %,jump seat and commuting rosters do you think they would listen? No.

I think they are in deep s... and are feeling the market out. This is a process that will take time ,in the mean time , as someone else said, take the raise and wait to see if the plan works and if not more to come or more to leave.

My understanding is courses in Mar are not filled Feb is full - 1 or 2.

Wait to see if the tri/tre's get , not a lot of interest from the 777 pilots to go into training, wonder why.

Tail Rota

16th Jan 2007, 04:50

Hey Guys

Happy New year fellas....

fatbus.... a little sense finally...:ugh:

I would do exactly the same if it was my company....but as pilots we all know its not going to make a bit of difference to the rate of resignations and the lack of candidates to recruit. They are testing the market.

EK has to do more.....what am I going to do ....well ..... take my payrise in May and all the other payrises we are going to get:E

If its not enough guys.....just leave and go where the money is better:D

We are nothing specail......we are all contract pilots, and thats all we are

TR:ok:

Thanks for the raise EK:cool:

BigGeordie

16th Jan 2007, 06:02

I think they have probably announced this very early to see if it slows down the trickle or flood (depending on who you talk to) of people leaving and produces more applicants. If it doesn't they still have time to "adjust" the utilities and education allowances to try and make the package more attractive. If suddenly they find themselves with more pilots than they know what to do with :hmm: then there will be nothing else coming.

They can increase the utilities by a huge percentage, which looks and sounds really good to new applicants, without costing the company anything because nobody can actually afford to move out of the company housing.

Ghostflyer

16th Jan 2007, 06:02

Sadly I don't think this is enough to meet the twin needs of retention and recruitment. Its the type of rise that if, you were staying anyway you would be happy with. It makes the EK salary a little more competitive but not really attractive to the sort of guys and gals they want to attract to secure the expansion. For a european F/O the exchange rate still hurts too much and it takes the starting salary in pounds back to where it was 8 years ago before inflation went mad.

The flying pay is set at a relatively modest level and gets the company out of having to pay extra PF contributions. Interestingly the overall quoted change is based on us flying 75hrs/month or 900/year. Wasn't it just last year that the stated aim was to reduce our flying to about 750/year. Personally, I would have preferred just a flat increase.

I wonder what they will do to the trainers and managers? If they do not get an increase that covers not only the loss of flying pay but also the loss of overtime, why would they bother to do it? For guys that have moved out the UA announcement may be critical. We have a few guys that are renting that are getting priced out of the market.

A welcome step in the right direction but it will be interesting to see if it achieves the companies aims; my guess it will not.

pissedoffpilotek

16th Jan 2007, 07:28

This simply shows where pilots stand in the grand scheme of things.

purser 65 dhs per hr
sfs 57 dhs per hr
fg1 48 dhs per hr
capt 45 dhs per hr
g1 40 dhs per hr
fo 35 dhs per hr.

i guess we are not valued that highly then!:ugh:

HundredPercentPlease

16th Jan 2007, 08:16

uplock

16th Jan 2007, 09:56

It’s better than no increase.

As others have mentioned it does acknowledge that yes there is a problem with our salary package Terms and Conditions, hence the early news.

Why all the back slapping and rhetoric in the first couple of paragraphs of the company letter. Read like the opening inaugural speech of a politician accepting office rather than getting to the nuts and bolts.

We remain comitted to the continuous review of our employment terms and renumeration package with the objective of enhancing any employee benifits to be fair and reasonable. As all ways we are keen to ensure that our overall compensation package remains competitive, and in particular we remain cognizant of recent increases in the cost of living in Dubai. Additionally the company during this review has taken into consideration and recognises the significant impact of your commitmant and personal effort to support the operational demands.

I’m more interested in what the Utility Allowance will increase given that Accommodation has been one of the most topical subjects if you do pay rent in Dubai.

The reality to date so far with the company when they “Review” the Utility Allowance….has been one big disappointment year after year and bears no resemblance at all to what the Real World Dubai Rental Prices for a Villa are at present.

What’s the bet they will factor in the Rental Cap?

What needs to be done is to increase the base level for the Utility Allowance to at least bring in line with what it would cost TODAY to rent a 3 bedroom Villa , pay for Water and Electricity and the 5 % Dubai Municipality Tax

Wishful thinking given the humongus increase in Rent 2005/2006 and all we received was a 10 % increase in the Utilities Allowance. But get real guys these are not recent increases in the cost of living in Dubai

7x7

16th Jan 2007, 11:18

purser 65 dhs per hr
sfs 57 dhs per hr
fg1 48 dhs per hr
capt 45 dhs per hr
g1 40 dhs per hr
fo 35 dhs per hr.Pretty well says it all, I think – and you be damned certain these figures won’t be lost on a few people in the IFS department who already think they’re totally in command of everything aft of the cockpit door.

A long time ago in EK there was a boss whose one reply to any complaint from one of his pilots was: “If yer don’t fookin’ loike it, oi’ll droive yer to the fookin’ airport meself.”

I wonder if that offer still holds? If it does, I suspect it’ll save me quite a few people a cab fare about three months from now.

airbus757

16th Jan 2007, 11:40

This simply shows
purser 65 dhs per hr
sfs 57 dhs per hr
fg1 48 dhs per hr
capt 45 dhs per hr
g1 40 dhs per hr
fo 35 dhs per hr.

this is not a good representation as a pilots base pay is significantly higher. Me thinks you are comparing apples to oranges.

7

southflyer

16th Jan 2007, 11:44

Not enough....
Utilities allowance for F/O: AED 114000 per year
1 Bedroom apartment at The Greens: (Gulf News Classifieds)
Greens ? Arno, 1 B/R, 817 sq.ft., 1st floor, AED 95,000/-. Contact XXXX , for viewing, at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greens ? ARNO, 2 B/R, 1,723 sq.ft., ground floor, with lake / garden view. AED 140,000/-. Contact XXXX , for viewing at --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greens, 1 B/R flat, for rent, AED 90,000/-; Al Samar 3, with all facilities, 24 hours security, swimming pool etc. Please contact: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greens, 1 B/R flat, with C.A/C free, equipped kitchen, s/pool, gym, 24 hours security & maintenance free, car parking. Rent 90K
So, AED 90000 rent, 5% tax and 5% broker commission plus utilities.... guess the company allowance only gets me a one bedroom flat today..., that is, if the landlord does not increase my rent the 7% or more...

Saltaire

16th Jan 2007, 11:56

Now remember fellas, this flight pay constitutes a small percentage of our salary while with the cabin crew it makes up close to half. Have to call := o on that one.

It is a watershed increase? No. Keep those from detesting this place to stay for another few years. Likely not. Initiate massive recruitment interest? Questionable

No doubt a huge concern for recruitment announcing this early. Someone is very concerned about manning the airplanes going forward and especially in 2008/9. How many deliveries that year?

It is some fancy bean counting and you have to give kudos to someone for thinking this through. Mitigate PF and PS, yet find a way to make it look like a big increase. Bean counting gold star :D

yankee22

16th Jan 2007, 12:07

Sorry if I sound a little confused......

But i'm still a little uncertain of how this hourly thing works.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I get my monthly base of approx 20800 dhs as an FO. As well, for every hour up to 75 hrs, I also get a 35dhs/hr override on top of the fixed based salary.

Is that what I understand to be true.

I'm not that smart.... hoping someone can cut through he crap and put it in lamen terms.

Thx guys.

Alby Mangel

16th Jan 2007, 12:23

I am an SFO at a UK LCC, very soon to get my command. I am under a lot of pressure to go to EK from the other half, I have family in Dubai, and I wouldn't mind myself really.

So I've been watching these threads with interest. I'd take a significant cut to leave here as an FO, and a massive cut once I get the command. Sadly (for the boss), a few % is nothing like enough to make me even think about applying. Shame, because a few years ago it looked like a good option.

Hi HundredPercentPlease,

in Dec 06 you posted stating you took home 3050 pounds per month at Easyjet. Based on the new payscale, an F/O in EK will get a basic salary of 20840 dhs per month. If you fly 50 hours per month, which i think is realistic, you get an additional 1750 dhs. This gives a total of 22590 dhs per month, which equates to 3137 UK pounds based on an exchange rate of 7.2.

Hope this helps in the decision.

kingpost

16th Jan 2007, 13:38

Now remember fellas, this flight pay constitutes a small percentage of our salary while with the cabin crew it makes up close to half. Have to call := o on that one.

Time to smell the roses, this is just the start. Yes, with flight deck it makes up a small percentage but this is the start introduce this "Low cost system" as your provident fund and other benefits are dependant on your basic salary.

Next year don't be surprised if you earn what an SFS earns per hour. You'll get a smaller increase on your basic however your pay per hour will be great, well sort of.....hence a lower contribution from the company into your fund.

I predict this is the start of the oozing of the open wound, next is the amputation!!

jinglied

16th Jan 2007, 14:17

Pay raise? Not every block month

As I see it, a significant part of this is flight pay, i.e., hours actually flown in any particular month. So....any month that you have vacation will be a PAY CUT. Not only do we get zero credit for vacation, but now they will reduce our paycheque every month that has vacation.

And... there is approximately SIX MONTHS before we see this money/condition improvement, as the first money will show up end of June. What will be the increase in cost of living in that time??

Not applicable to Provident fund...that is gonna hurt!!!

Not a great deal.

Jinglie'd

donpizmeov

16th Jan 2007, 14:23

100percentplease,

Stay where you are . Take the promotion. Send the Mrs to the family in DXB for holidays and enjoy the extra cash. In three years time, if you are still interested, you can join as a DEC. Whereas if you join now as a FO you will still be in the RHS.

100 aeroplanes now, 152 in 2010. 1600 pilots now, so 800 FOs need to upgrade before you, as well as the DECs that join. Even if it was 10 crews per airplane (which is what our ULH ones are said to be crewed at), you will still have at least 280 FOs in front of you in 4 years time, and that is not including any joining DECs. It also does not include any Captains leaving that need to be replaced, but you get the picture.

Does anyone know how much of long range Eds or TCASs salary is not included in the provident fund, increment increases and profit share calculations?

Dont get too carried away about the utility and schooling allowance review. This is just the same thing that happens every year (as is the pay review). But normally the are not so vocal about it. Last year the rent cap was 15% and the allowance went up by 10%, this year the rent cap is 7%, so wait and see. The schooling allowance is reviewed every year and adjusted in July.

Don

donpizmeov

16th Jan 2007, 15:51

Its just the way it is Mutts. The last of the FOs that were badly disadvantaged by the DEC thing are to start a course in the next few months. The other guys joined knowing that DECs were part of the picture.
Not saying I agree or disagree with it, but that is how the cookie is crumbling.

Don

ShockWave

16th Jan 2007, 16:05

Muttley, you should be well aware of how the EK accom dept works or doesn't work for some.
The reasons for leaving EK accom are many and varied. 4 or 5 years ago you could get good accom for what they offered and then you would not have to deal with those a----holes again.
In the last three years the cost of a villa in Dubai has increased by more than 100% and the allowance by about 20%. Reasonable 4 bedroom villas in Al-saffa area are now over 200,000AED. + 20000 for services, meadows, ranches are all the same..
EK allowance about 125000AED.
Don't even try to ask to come back to eK accom, you will get an ass kicking.
I will leave when I can and accom will be one of the main reasons. Shame really, but what to do...

Yossarian

16th Jan 2007, 16:07

I agree that this is not the perfect answer to our problems. There are a number of issues that are not addressed. Perhaps we should look at it as the first step though. If this doesn't stop or slow down resignations and increase applications, maybe another change is in store.
To be brutally honest, I was looking around, but found nothing that suited, so would have stayed with the normal 3 percent pay increase. I am now going to be getting an average of Dhs7000 extra a month. 7000 more than I expected, so I will say thanks for that.
Will it stop me looking? No. Will it make it more difficult for me to motivate a change? Yes. Goal achieved for EK? Maybe.
Everyone of us has extremely personal reasons for being here. Not one of us is exactly the same. I don't think this offer is perfect, but it certainly helps; and for that I accept it with thanks.

critical winge

16th Jan 2007, 16:39

THERE IS NO PAYRISE!!

Its simple, we all know that the record profits again this year will mean another totally lied about 1/5th of the profit shared out. :mad: Increasing profits year on year made 10 weeks become 4? This isn't even a backpayment, its probably this years 1/5th profit share payment reduced again, to not alot, so as to pay for the marginal increase from May. THEY ARE PAYING US OUT OF THE REAL PROFIT SHARE INTO THIS YEAR AS FLIGHT PAY!! AND THEY THINK WE BELIVE EM := :ugh:

jinglied

16th Jan 2007, 16:43

Geeez, Yossarian.....

That sounds awwfull purty

Jinglie'd

geespot

16th Jan 2007, 18:44

There are so many months with minimum legal days off, manual intervention in the rosters, no time off to be with family and see friends, only recovery! i hope this attracts more people as we need them to try and improve life style,but i don't think this announcement will be enough to help.
if this had been with immediate effect, then see what happens by April/May, then this would be more encouraging that they are taking this shortage of crew seriously and would have the time to tweek it at the normal time of announcements...........but:ugh:
Why not start giving back a little of what has been taken away over the past few years, just throwing a little more money at the problem will not solve it, we still need to live a normal life!!!

gee...............:\

semper fi

16th Jan 2007, 19:00

I just wonder how many pilots in EK actually made more money or lived better lives before they came to EK to complain about the new pay raise:confused: :confused: :confused:

Oblaaspop

16th Jan 2007, 19:19

HundredPercentPlease,
Just a couple of my own sums to help you along mate,
My basic today= 20800dhs + 9% = 22672 dhs basic (£3240 @ 7dhs/£)
75hrs @ 35dhs=2625dhs
Currency Protection against GBP approx 1800dhs with the % increase
Grand Total = 27000 dhs (£3900 NET)
Over time can boost this significantly ie. by the end of this month, I will have done 98 hours flying with 15 days off (2xJFK's 3xFRA's and 1 turnround). If this was transposed forward to June, this would equate to 33500 dhs or £4800 NET
I know for a fact that Easy do not pay more than £4k NET to SFO's (The captains only take home £500 more than that!!). And, yes a larger proportion of your salary is made up of productivity (read sector) pay than ours, so I guess you too are stuffed while on vacation/sick leave?
Not a snipe buddy, just a reality check on what you actually do earn compared to us (a significant pay rise coming from easy to here me thinks?)

montencee

16th Jan 2007, 19:35

I just wonder how many pilots in EK actually made more money or lived better lives before they came to EK to complain about the new pay raise:confused: :confused: :confused:

Well, using the monthly resignation list as a measurement and noting the significant numbers of people with junior staff numbers leaving every month, I would say quite a lot.

These numbers include DECs, F/Os and junior Captains. Presumably there are others of the same background who are preparing to leave and others who although keen to move on will for personal reasons stick it out for longer.

And I doubt that this pay rise will reduce the outflow because in real terms local inflation and the continuing fall of the yankee dollar are still ahead. Never mind the growing problems of living in Dubai.

Scudsy

16th Jan 2007, 19:37

Cost Neutral

"Accept with thanks" the fact that our overtime rules were changed. If the change was truly "cost neutral" then why do it? Makes no sense to do so, no manager would make a change like that without a saving. I know one thing for sure, we are all working much harder since the change occurred. That is more like a change in conditions, and for the worse. The overall savings must have been enormous. We've managed to get by with fewer pilots than the old regime required. Managed to alienate a lot of pilots in the meanwhile. So now that we (EK) have saved a pile of money, we can afford to give you a little bit back (because it is cost neutral). Only we'll give it back later (we've banked the savings). Why? Because rampant inflation means that the numbers might look similar but the VALUE is less. A lot less.

If you are reading this from outside Dubai then you don't really get it. And the posts made so far reveal your naivety. Unless of course you live in Zim!

The IMF noted in 2006 that inflation remained one of the largest challenges for the UAE economy. The IMF indicated shortcomings in the methodology used to compile CPI data, including outdated weightings, lack of imputations for missing data and different reference periods. IE lets hide the true rate of inflation.

The next time you get stopped for speeding on the SZR ask your police man how big his pay rise was. Single digits? No....

We didn't get 18. We got 6 and some flight pay (no PF, or end of service)

Government employees get whopper pay rises. We are not government employees:

Expatriates versus nationals
In the case of the GCC countries, it is important to note there is a difference in the inflation levels felt by nationals and foreigners. In the majority GCC countries, a number of benefits are provided to nationals. For example, UAE nationals are provided with land to build a house and can apply for a soft loan to finance the building of a house. Other differences include the fact that UAE nationals pay less for electricity than expatriates and are not charged for water.

If you don't like your apartment, you won't be given any land to build on. No, you'll have to shut up or move out. Most pilots are smart enough to know that land ownership is a pension in a world where pensions are worthless. If you want to buy, this place is not cheap, and the villas are not expected to last longer than 30 years (that may be optimistic).

We work hard. Make no bones about it. No pen pushing, penny counting office wallah I ever met understood how hard a roster was to LIVE through. Any roster is hard work, but add time zone changes and working mostly through the graveyard shift (any where near 4am on your body clock) and that that is truly hard.

MY FINAL WORD:

In its Cost of Living Survey, Mercer Human Resources Consulting place Dubai as the 25th most expensive city in the world in 2006, out of 144 cities ranked; Dubai's ranking jumped from 73rd position in 2005.

Unless your pay jumped that much also then you received NO real payrise. Don't look at Dubai through Europe tinted glasses.

Saltaire

17th Jan 2007, 03:38

Don,

There are at least 50 FO's hired before the DEC debacle that are disadvantaged and will be quickly approaching four years to upgrade. A solid three years on the Boeing and no signs of slowing down. Good for them.. It's really two separate entities, until they actually transfer some bus captains over. Senoirity ?? Not in the dictionary over here. Cest la vie...

Trashed Aviator

17th Jan 2007, 05:54

I agree about the payrise , no matter how much is given the changes need to be made with:
1 duty hours (get s/os)
2 Basings, guys need a way out of this screwed up city
3 Commuting and jumpseats for pilots.
4 When i came here i thought i could stay for 20 years and retire, no more Im looking at 7 years and gone, I may even reduce it to 5 and no amount of salary increase will keep me here, I like the flying when its not at the limits , but I cant stand living in Dubai and I do not want my kids growing up here into their young adult life.
This is not all EKs fault but they need to address the fact that guys still want to work for them but not live in Dubai, its really the companys loss if the pilot moves to Korean or some other commuting job.
5 The F/os need to be catered for highly experienced guys on Airbus are denied commands while relatively low houred guys on the 777 are getting commands in 3 years.
This is not fair and every other airline cannot be wrong about transition upgrades. Unfortunately you have to spend money on training , cost cutting in that department is frought with danger.
6 well if no basings in 2 years goodbye EK............

L1011

17th Jan 2007, 05:56

Agree with most of what is posted about the quantam and method of the pay-raise. 'Nuff said.

More to the point - how is this going to be tracked, managed and paid? Do swaps count for the 'basic' flight pay? Or will it be like overtime - rostered block only, unless called out?

This is the outfit that can't agree if we have flown 900 hours remember. Should be fun to watch.:suspect:

MR8

17th Jan 2007, 06:20

Ok, I am 'pleased' with the improved conditions. At least, if I'm still here in May, still on the lookout...

First of all, it will improve our pay UP TO the threshold of 76hrs (78-76-73-70 depending on the month). Actually, the valuation of our overtime went down quite a bit... For me personally:

Before: 20860/month / 76hrs = 275dhs

So, I was paid (basic) to fly at 275dhs/hour. Overtime at 325dhs = 18% extra pay for your effort to work overtime. Not a big deal, but there is some appreciation...

Now (well, in may that is..) 22775/month/76hr = 300 dhs

On top of that, we get a 35dhs flightpay, so I am basically paid 335dhs/hour.

Since the overtime didn't change, I will still get 325dhs for overtime (the flightpay is not paid for overtime). So, in overtime, I will be paid less per hour than in basic. This is ridiculous...

Another Scam:

AAR points out how much per month Flight Pay you will get based on 75hrs. This is completely misleading. How many months do we actually fly nicely JUST up to the threshold? Personally, I got a few 50hr months (annual leave or sick) where we would LOOSE pay. On the other hand, all the other months I work my ass off, and fly between 80 and 95 hours, LOOSING out on the flightpay again for my overtime...

Best of all does it get for the company once you hit the 900 hour limit. So, now you have been working very hard for a year, mostly in overtime again... You can not fly anymore for a month, and they reward you by... NOT paying you for the hours you made in the months before to get them out of their problems..

So, to conclude, you will get a 18-19% payrise if you work every month just up to the threshold to exactly 900 hours/year.

For my personal roster, 2006, I would get paid exactly for 727 hours. So instead of a yearly pay of 12 x 20860 = 250320, I will get 12 x 22110 (I only used the 6%, the other 3% is contractual seniority pay) 265320 + 727 x 35 (25445) = 290765

I had around 130 hours of overtime, at 325 = 42250, which remain unchanged.
My payrise fo 2006 would have been 290765+42250 / 250320+42250 = 13.8%

This is suddenly a completely different picture. Less then 14% payrise... So this is probably just making up for the 'new' productivity pay introduced 2 years ago.

MR8

PS: Sorry for all the numbers, just trying to get a point over..

145qrh

17th Jan 2007, 06:33

Not forgetting overtime and duty pay do not count for Provident Fund Contibutions.....so 13.8% becomes a few points less, if you want to make it up yourself....

Wiley

17th Jan 2007, 07:20

Once the emotive responses are done with and tempers have cooled somewhat, maybe it’s time to look at what’s really happened here.

1. Do the PowersThatBe recognise that something needs to be done to address the current situation?
- It would appear so – (and some would say: “not before time!!”)

2. What does this announcement really represent?
- An ambit offer, pared down to the absolute minimum those same PowersThatBe believe they can get away with.

3. Is it sufficient?
- While it’s certainly welcome, I don’t think the PowersThatBe really understand the depth – or breadth – of disillusionment and cynicism among the pilot group, especially the First Officers. It’s now a novelty to meet a happy FO, and if he is, you can almost guarantee he’s still in the ‘toy phase’, that first few months in the country.

I agree with the person who already said it above – it’s now gone well beyond ‘just’ a question of money.

4. Will this stem the rate of resignations?
- Perhaps a little, but in my opinion, not by much. Most looking to go elsewhere are weighing many other factors apart from money.

6. Will it increase the recruit base?
- Let’s be honest – yes. But much of this positive effect will be lost by the very negative message potential recruits will receive by word of mouth from friends and colleagues who are already here – and from sites like this.

EK will always attract applications from a wide range of wannabes, many with no shortage of skills and aptitude, but without the experience levels EK has to date been able to demand. And in the not so distant future, I suspect they may be forced to dip a little deeper into that wannabe pool than they have to date, which has all sorts of implications to the training that will have to be provided that until now, EK has got for free (even if they all too often make no use of it!!!).

7. What are some of the non monetary considerations that are weighing so heavily on people’s unhappiness levels?
- Some have been mentioned already. I can only mention the ones that impact on me.

Dubai simply isn’t what it used to be.

The traffic has become utterly horrendous. Mr Ed himself mentioned in his last missive to pilots that over the last twelve months, and extra 500,000 cars have been added to Dubai’s roads, (and God alone knows how many unregistered cars on top of that).

But it’s not just the quantity of traffic, but the two tier system of law enforcement (and not just on the roads) that prevails in Dubai. Many drivers operate their vehicles with utterly mind-boggling disregard for the most basic rules of commonsense survival, to the point where many of us now avoid using the roads as much as possible because we go in fear of our lives every time we step into our cars.

As an example far too close to home for comfort, many of us will be going to a memorial service on Thursday for the daughter of one of our senior pilots. She was killed in particularly grisly circumstances in a road accident a few days ago. At 20, she is the third young person from the same year from one Dubai high school to be killed on the roads in Dubai since they graduated – (and it’s worth noting that one of the other two dead from that same class was also an Emirates pilot’s daughter). Her 22 year old companion killed in the same accident last week is the second to die on Dubai roads from his year from the same school.

And it needs to be said that in most of these accidents, the major cause wasn’t the young kids speeding or doing something silly, but others, their elders, driving at ridiculous speeds in heavy traffic in built up areas.

Housing/rental, or the cost thereof. The subject’s been done to death, but it’s a huge factor to many here.

Basings. In the not so distant past, the Dubai economy was small and the financial input of the EK pilot group having their families in Dubai was a significant part of the local economy. Dubai has grown well past the point where the (even larger) EK pilot group has any real impact anymore.

In fact, the company has grown now to the point where another factor should be seen as having become more important: EK can no longer hope to get away with finding someone on leave in a distant port who is willing to bail the company out by operating a flight when someone goes sick downroute.

We need to start basing pilots, or failing that, (and maybe even better than basings), allowing a number of pilots to write their rosters from a designated outport. Of course it will make things more complicated for the schedulers, but it will save the company money and give it far more flexibility downroute when crews go out of hours or fall sick, Another huge factor, basing will retain for the company many pilots who are willing to remain in EK employment but are not willing to remain living in the ‘new’ Dubai.

8. Will they up the offer?
- I think they’ll have to, (or at least sweeten the deal with a few more lumps of sugar that won’t necessarily involve more money), if I’m right and the resignations continue and suitable recruits don’t appear in considerably larger numbers.

I’d also like to know the details of the new hourly flight pay. Will it apply to deadheading? Simulator? Groundschool?

ShockWave

17th Jan 2007, 07:47

Well said Wiley!

On the point regarding resignations:
If you hand in your letter of resignation before the end of may, will they still pay you your proffit share?

southflyer

17th Jan 2007, 08:22

you will only get your profit share if you are still on the property at the time you get your May paycheck, i.e., you have to be on the payroll on May 26.., so resign no earlier than February 27...

...."check"!!! ...or is it "checked"? ...or "checks"?

HundredPercentPlease

17th Jan 2007, 08:33

HundredPercentPlease,
Just a couple of my own sums to help you along mate,
...
Not a snipe buddy, just a reality check on what you actually do earn compared to us (a significant pay rise coming from easy to here me thinks?)

I apologise, I was just using the figures published on the Emirates website. My pay now is £3100 (£4600 very shortly) plus bonuses and shares and so on. I read 19660 and xe.com told me £2712, so I considered that a cut.

Now the new info on the site says 20840 + 2625 (£3249) which I agree is about the same (once bonuses and shares are considered), but not enough to tempt me away from the left seat pay here.

I understand the reason people went to work in the sand in the past was because you earned a pile of cash, and so put up with the "oddities". If that was the case now, I'd go!

Andu

17th Jan 2007, 10:39

Note to the office boy who monitors this site for EK management: could you please make sure TC gets to see AND TAKE NOTE OF Wiley's last post? Especially Point 3.

waldorfin

17th Jan 2007, 12:18

The problem here is credibility. How on earth can management take us seriously when we complain about things like traffic. Will more money ease that inconvenience. Dubai is a growing city and like all growing cities it has its problems, traffic being but a part of this issue. Its tantamount to complaining of the rain back home, simply nonsense and it minimises our real complaint base.
Please lets leave that one alone.

The real issue’s are things like inflation, the hidden tax we pay and the fact that management is constantly eroding our non remunerative perks. There are issues with the amount of work we do and the impact that has on our family lives, rostering matters and the fact that at any stage management can call us in and read us the riot act without us having a leg to stand on.

We have a non-flying boss who has absolutely NO!!! idea with regards to what goes on in the modern flight deck but has the cheek and audacity to issue directives on how to fly and limit our influence in the flight deck with nonsense FCI’s.

A two tier legal system, enough said.

But please leave the traffic gripe alone.

MTOW

17th Jan 2007, 12:38

Don't mention the traffic? You obviously don't have to take kids to school each day, waldo.
For me, the traffic (or more specifically, the idiots I share the roads with who can try to kill me daily with total impunity and no fear of the law, as they're untouchable), is one of the main reasons I'll be leaving here earlier than I need to, so we're probably really tallking about the two teir legal system rather than the traffic per se.
I think a number of people have said that quality of life is as important to them as money, and the traffic is a big part of the lack of quality of life today.
Put it another way; the money bucket no longer outweighs the **other** one, as it once did.

waldorfin

17th Jan 2007, 12:49

My point is lets grieve issues that management can do something about. Children have all left the air-conditioned nest however I do not live on an island and am subject to this mess.

Try the M25 on a Friday afternoon though, or a monday or tuesday or or or!!!!!!!

Vorsicht

17th Jan 2007, 14:55

With all due respect, if you do not have school age kids in Dubai, then your views on the traffic have little relevence to someone who does. It is a problem, regardless of whether the company can do anything about it or not, and it is influencing peoples (particularly wives) view of the long term viability of being resident in Dubai, therefore it is an issue for the company whether they want it to be or not.

nuff said.

fatbus

17th Jan 2007, 15:39

What can EK do about the traffic? I have kids in school and traffic is just plain stupid . The last time I checked EK did not run RTA. I guess everyone wants more money because of the traffic.Ya ok sure,cheques in the mail

bigilla

17th Jan 2007, 15:52

Fatbus/Waldorfin Traffic has nothing to do with money. I don't think that the guys are saying it's EK's fault that the traffic is dangerous. No money on EK's part will solve that. What will is the possibility of foreign bases, so people can still work for this company but live somewhere else. Someone mentioned the M25 in London - not all countries have that sort of traffic and few have traffic as dangerous as Dubai's.

chinawladi

17th Jan 2007, 15:57

I concur that EK can do nothing about the traffic. But it will not be a particular problem to those with kids only. Just wait until they'll fix the pick-up time to 3 hours before ETD without any compensation and everyone will agree that traffic IS a problem that affects all of us. The horse has already fired a warning shot, so believe me, it won't be long and the traffic problem will be shoved upon us, and us only. :{

violate

17th Jan 2007, 16:26

Waldo, the M25 is like afternoon tea at the Ritz compared with the free chipati queue mentality of the SZR. Not even close.

China you are so right, just lubing us up for the next round of bu**ering

Dune

17th Jan 2007, 16:52

You are all absolutely correct.

The bottom line is every pilot who leaves his/her own country to fly as an expat does it for 2 reasons........money and standard of living. Period. End of story.

Dubai in the past 5 years has gone from a quiet third world country where an EK pilot enjoyed a reasonable standard of living, had a reasonable life and could put away a few dollars/euros/pounds/yen/etc for retirement to a hell bent/corrupt/out of control third world country where EK pilots DO NOT enjoy a reasonable standard of living, don't have a reasonable life due to jet lag/manning/rostering/etc and cannot put away more than a pitance towards any sort of retirement.

The point is why in the hell would anyone outside EK leave his home country for this circus (unless they come from either a worse 3rd world country or are unemployed with no chance of a future in their home country). The answer is obvious in the fact EK CANNOT recruit the numbers of suitably qualified pilots they require. Hence this feable attempt to put "lipstick on this pig" to make it appear to outsiders things are getting better.

As an aside, a big thank you to the moderators of this forum for allowing the word to get out. It probably has saved hundreds of wanna-be's from making probably the biggest mistake of their aviation careers.

Just my thoughts.

ekpilot

17th Jan 2007, 17:19

Along with many colleagues I have chosen to drive on the M25 in preference to the Sheikh Zayed Road. I have chosen to pay tax and live in the UK. Why? Because a.) I can and b.) I want to. Dubai is not for me and I have chosen to leave for many reasons, some of which are stated above. Did the pay rise have any affect at all on my decision to go or give me a few regrets? No.

Now, I assume that those of you loving it in Dubai are staying because a.) You can and b.) You want to.

New Dubai has us split into two groups, you either love it, or hate it. Life's about nothing other than choices. Good luck with your decisions in life Gentlemen and I hope that whatever dreams you are chasing come true for you all.

BYMONEK

17th Jan 2007, 19:10

Waldo

I agree that Emirates has little control regarding the appalling traffic situation but as someone has already stated, this does contribute to an overall deteriation in ones quality of life.This may ultimately be a factor in coming and more importantly, staying in EK.

Try telling the two families who've just lost a son and daughter in a tragic road accident that it's not 'part of the deal'. Every parents worst nightmare and a 24hr reality here in Dubai. An impact so great yet NO skid marks from the other vehicle! Maybe the Police should be looking at mobile phone records. I don't want to make any accusations as we don't know all the facts yet. Nor may we ever know the truth, but past experience in this part of the World has taught us that even if proved guilty, what kind of a sentance would the local woman expect to serve? A rhetorical question if ever there was one. Until the law stops differentiating between races and nationality, some locals will continue to take advantage of skewed rules and continue to drive like morons.

No, i'm sorry to say Waldo that for many of us, the way people drive here is very much a part of our daily life. I'm sure that for many reading this forum and for those that knew the family involved in this tragedy, our thoughts and prayers are with them at this difficult time.

Cyberbird

17th Jan 2007, 20:20

I really have to agree totally to the undeniable fact, that driving on Dubais roads ,is nowadays one of the most dangerous things i've ever experienced in live- and that includes parachuting, competition downhill-skiing, trekking through soutamerica/ climbing in Patagonia/ Torres de Paines& Himalaya and done some "sportsmans-class" aerobatics flying - which is far less dangerous &not endangered by some (not necessarily - but most of the times) young locals/nobrainers with their "daddy-sponsered" overpowered Sportcars, SUV or other misused vehicles on publich roads ! It's hillarious !

Examples - Here we go ....

... just last week, i've just been able to avoid crashing into a massive piece of furniture lying on the middle of SZR - apperantly just coming off from some open Pick-Up - which they use commonly for movin' their stuff here - with obviously insufficient (if any at all!) securing of that stuff!
everybody was driving around that lump with 100+ km/h - as it was in the middle of the lanes -deadly dangerous!!!
... on another occasion a local cab-driver veered (without any sign/ signal given) over all the lanes in front of the Jmeirah Beach Hotel - just to pick up a "russian lady" (my guess after sighting her with golden hand-bag and on high heels) signalling after finishing her "business" over there ... forcing me and others onto: MAX-Brake to avoid a collision ..

Furthermore - last year i visited a really nice friend of mine (a european EK Co-Pilot) at the American Hospital, who was run over at almost the same U-turn-Bay in Jumeirah, whilst he was sitting (not driving though!) on his bike (he shoudn't have done that ...), and got hit by a local reckless SUV-Driver with Sharjah plate, who was speeding through the U-turn bay, in an attempt to overtake some slower traffic ....:eek:
that poor guy broke his leg pretty badly in that incident - and police did nothing at all to find the driver, even as the make of the car and some letters of the arabic SHJ-licence-plate was given to the police by onlookers of the scene -
the policeman actually told witnesses, that the unlucky bike-driver, who was run over from behind, might have been speeding on his bike - whereas the witnesses confirmed to him, that he guy was stationary waiting on the bike to get over onto the other side, and not driving at all -as his bike had just suffered minimal glass damage /unlike his leg- the police-guy was however not convinced - nuff said ...:confused:

and i remember sadly that last year someone from AUS/NZ was run over, by bicycling on one of the major roads from behind - just like the popular young lad, who dared to get out of his car, after fuel starvation -
it's really like war out there - you never know, when Your number is coming up! :eek:

I'll be tomorrow givin' a last thouhgt to that very unlucky young couple that was hit flat-out by a local lady - on nthe Al-Wasl U-turn;
apparently as the damage to their car was deadly and fire involved, those two in the car dindn't survive;:bored:
i saw the accident-site in the afternoon, and could also find NO skidmarks at all from teh AUDI of that local lady!? - Odd!?
Said all that - and agreeing to Wileys post - i'm also one of the demotivated & postponed F/Os with >3 yrs in the company, who just had enough by now, and are actively looking for greener grass (where it grows naturally -that is):)
- and those "peanuts" of salary increase, won't keep me off doing that and rather staying/ strugglin' here - my family & my health have to go first - and - yes - as stated above - it's sad to see, but You can't deny the fact (!) that Emirates has truely become one of the plenty third world airlines nowadays ...
"Pay penuts => You'll get monkeys ....":*

propaganda

17th Jan 2007, 22:46

Wiley,

An excellent post and one I concur with...especially the infrastructure nightmare, which is Dubai. .... O/seas bases must be on their radar .

Craic Ore

18th Jan 2007, 02:26

I totally agree with the following:

Lifestyle, not money, will keep people here long term.

Bases will keep them here even longer.

Without some fundamental changes to the management's understanding of the pilot's mindset and priorities, the outflow valve will remain fully open. Unfortunately I'm in the camp that believes they won't realize the problem until it's too late or at least until heads roll as widebodies are parked due to crewing issues.

As for the fact that driving should not be an issue, please think about what is more important to most of us - a big shiny a/c or our families safety. My wife already knows that one incident that's too close to home (accident, cultural, applied wasta, etc.) and we're outta here. That's something that bases would solve.

turtleneck

18th Jan 2007, 03:52

while i totally agree whats said about local driving skill, be careful as pros: abs/esp do not leave skid marks.....

MR8

18th Jan 2007, 03:57

Basings seem to be the big thing nowadays... I can see why, I wouldn't want my kid (if I had one) to grow up as a teenager in Dubai. I wouldn't be at easy if my wife (if I had one.. hehe) had to struggle through traffic everyday. Actually, although I'm quite happy at the time in Dubai, I wouldn't mind to go and live in a nice sunny place with real nature and real people, nice bars, relaxed atmosphere, you know... So, basings would make me happier as well!! I want a base as well!!

But then comes the wake-up call.. Even though EK would announce bases overseas, how many people would actually profit from that? On the contrary, how many people would suffer inderictly from having bases?

For example: EK announces a base in Sydney. Great news, everything I want, actually, me and a sh1tl0ad of Ozzies. And there obviously won't be that many places in a base. The contracts for the guys with a base might be ok, (otherwise I wouldn't want to go anyway) so these guys who do get it, well, they are probably going to stay untill they retire. How long would I have to wait to get into a base? Years? Is it worth staying that long in Dubai? If I want to get out, probably not.

On the contrary actually: because of my more senior colleagues who are now fat and happy in their Sydney base, I can't get any Sydney flights anymore, and I can't go and see my Ozzie chick anymore...:{

SO basically, oversea bases would be good for a happy few, but most people would have absolutely no advantage with it...

Commuting rosters or part time on the other hand...

MR8

mini cooper

18th Jan 2007, 05:48

Only things that would make me stay long term:
Final Salary Pension scheme - as the locals get at the moment!!!! This would really make people want to stay long term.
Basings - enough said, though my idea would be for a Korean type basing (not literally though still looking). The idea would be 2 weeks off, 4-6 weeks on, flying from Dubai or wherever they want. That way we could all live near an EK destination and commute. Simple.
:ok:

YYZguy

18th Jan 2007, 06:41

While any pay rise is greatfully accepted, I agree with many that there are also conditions that can be changed at little expense to the company but would make a difference in morale, and I believe, recruiting;
1. No more DEC's
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days.
I know we could compose a list 20 items long but these seem like simple and easy solutions.
Cheers all,
YYZguy.

waldorfin

18th Jan 2007, 06:43

Firstly let me state that I am a personal friend of BOTH grieving families. I have been with them over the last 96 hours and lived this horror.

My point is EK can do nothing over the traffic, did someone really say driving the M25 was easy, surely not.
Yes- Dubai has grown into the “city that doesn’t care”, but what on earth can EK do about THAT. Basings ………… Laughable, it will never ever happen, besides will the whole company be based in their home country. No, at best it will be a few, my guess is less than 3% of the total pilot work force would be based, if ever it happened. I maintain basings to be highly unlikely though.

So what can we actually change? We know that management read these forums, lets give them something they can tangibly work with, none of this bleating over issues they have absolutely no control over.

For instance, YYZ's issues. Totally workable!!!!!!

My thoughts anyway.

Scudsy

18th Jan 2007, 07:33

I have to agree, basings would be great for a tiny minority, and a disaster for the rest of us. I hope it never happens.

Vorsicht

18th Jan 2007, 08:16

OK Waldo,

I'll give em something tangible they can use. How about communicating with their workforce to find out where the problems lie, rather than d*ckheads like TCAS and the talking horse espousing their wisdom from up on high, like they actually have to put up with the things that affect us.

Until they actually ask us what would help, and engage in some constructive dialogue with some democratically chosen pilot representatives (who are not on management payroll), how the hell are they ever going to come close to finding out what the problems are, let alone finding a fix for them.

V

canadansk

18th Jan 2007, 08:30

For the answer is to provide a "Korean Airlines" type of rostering pattern (even the option of it for those that want a commuting type lifestyle). EK retains us all as UAE residents BUT we are able to maintain a somewhat normal life outside of the UAE. This would keep me here long term.:ok:

theidler

18th Jan 2007, 08:49

Emirates has never been a big payer, it's always sat in the middle group. And 10 years ago this didn't matter. Those who joined either by design or more often by circumstance found good flying and a city that was easy to live in. So the money was enough.

Not anymore. Dubai is becoming a hardship posting and the money doesn't cut it anymore.

YYZs points are well made but singularly or collectively they wouldn't drive me out of EK.

The two things that will and are driving me out are working a short haul/long haul/ultra long haul roster with short haul rest patterns month in month out and the increasing misery and sometimes fear of negotiating the traffic in Dubai.

As chuck kindly pointed out if the work and the driving don't get me first then the ulcer will.

QUOTE=Chimbu chuckles;3069812]Thanks Theidler deconstruct away..................and leave you to your developing ulcer:ok:[/QUOTE]

disconnected

18th Jan 2007, 09:30

The UAE traffic is not under Emirates' control. It should be mentioned that they have been highly supportive to those who have suffered tragedy

Nonetheless, the traffic should be seriously considered before moving to Dubai. Its level of risk for death or serious injury surpasses any other city I have driven in by a wide margin.

There have been tragic losses to the families of pilots and one should also consider those flight attendants that have lost their lives on these roads.
Almost everyone call recount a number of very near misses that might well have resulted in their fatality. Fate is certainly the hunter. There are almost daily incidents, to someone in our profession, where minor injury or damage occurs through no fault of their own. These are traumatic and expensive for those concerned.

Aside from this, driving is unpleasant and tedious. The volume of heavy traffic is intimidating; convoys of large trucks moving at high speed, interspaced with frustrated drivers manoevring recklessly around them. Occassional suicidal drivers moving at ridiculous velocities in large saloons or SUV's. All this against a backdrop of tangled interchanges, badly controlled intersections, confusing or inadequate signs, road works, diversions and thousands of red cones or barriers that are poorly lit or advertised.

It is tiring and stressful. I believe it to be more stressful than we give credit for.

The reasons are multiple: Expansion and poor planning, inadequate policing, insufficient regulation, unaccountability of a chosen few, low levels of education for the majority of drivers, windshield tinting. The list goes on.

Its not likely to change much in the near future. Given the proposed expansion there is a strong case that it will get markedly worse. Certainly it has got steadily worse in the past ten years.

Those of us already here must simply weigh up the risks against everything else. For those considering moving to Dubai, I would recommend a few days of driving around to see for yourselves. Look at the routes your family may have to take at relevant times.

As requested, I will be taking the minute of silence at 16:35, Dubai time, in respect to the family of one of our most highly regarded Captains, to contemplate their tragic loss.

waldorfin

18th Jan 2007, 09:37

VORSICHT- I agree
CANADANSK- not in your or my lifetime
THEIDLER- apart from the traffic issue, I agree
DISC- a sensible gripe but one that the company can do sweet nothing about.

Ghostflyer

18th Jan 2007, 09:49

Traffic, Traffic, Traffic.

I know a bit about traffic; my family having done an aileron role in a Prado on a roundabout in Dubai. It sucks but there is nothing EK can do about it. Whoever talked about the bucket theory got it right. Traffic is a major contributor to the sh1t bucket and for many the cash has ceased outweighing it.

From my point of view, the payrise is welcome but it disappoints me that it wasn't just a blanket 'take 20% boys'. That would be nice, I wouldn't have the feeling that some (not particularly smart) bean counter thinks he is pulling a fast one.

Instead we get flying pay which is variable and non-pensionable thus saving the company cash or denying the full effect of the rise. Why so cynical? Over the last few years we have lived through the 'cost neutral' scam. It actually was 'cost neutral' if everyone flew to the hourly limit without overtime. Since then however, we have often ended up with 75hrs block in a month when we have taken 7 days leave and had our PPC. This is how they changed our credit rules:

{Written in 2004.} 42 days leave, 10 training days, 30 hrs dead heading and 10 standbys/year. Under the old system that would have added up to about 205 hrs of credit. The reduction in overtime trigger off-sets about 76 hrs. So every pilot loses about 130hrs of potential overtime/year i.e. 52k/yr for Captains and 37k for F/Os.

So overall, a brilliant strategy by management. The company saves money and we all work harder. Individuals may be better off in the short term but it seems that the pilot group contract has just taken about a 15% pay cut for the same amount of work.

YYZ,
1. No more DEC's
2. Give us back use of the jumpseat.
3. 2 ALT's per year.
4. Pay us for training/sim days

Small beer really. DECs has been a disaster unless you got in as one. Use of the jump seat will help on some flights but not on the big commuter routes because the cockpit is already full. 2 ALTs/year, why not. Pay for the training/sim.... Aaaah, return to the status quo and give us back the 15% that was removed 3 years ago, now there is an idea. Perhaps it has been done with the new flying pay scheme but with the proviso that we will still get worked to the limit.

I am delighted to get a raise. I don't think it will stop guys leaving or make guys jump at EK. Most people don't make their decision on whether to join a company based just on money unless they are comparing 2 companies working in the same country or that have the same working conditions. Mind you there is a guy on the EK forum who thinks EK is the best. If I get him right its because the hosties are all young and as a singly living on the SZR he doesn't need his car to get to their appartments for a shag.

Were I to make a change I'd see if commuting rosters were feasible for those that want to do it. (That wouldn't even cost money but it would stop the Aussie/Brit/SA brigade whining at me) I'd also make overtime optional rather than compulsory; that was the biggest knock to our lifestyle and that is what changed with the old credit scam. The company have worked us harder for less cash and have under-resourced the pilot workforce ever since.

Ghost

Gillegan

18th Jan 2007, 09:53

Emirates pays us to fly their airplanes, train their pilots, AND to move our families half way around the world AND to live in Dubai. All of these things go into the equation and the traffic, whether it is of Emirates making or not is part of living in Dubai. I and many others find ourselves saying more and more often, "They don't pay me enough for this sh....!" Some of this shi.... is of Emirates making and some of it isn't but it all affects whether it is worth it or not. Jobs that are in difficult places to live routinely pay premiums for those places. It is a normal part of global business. The question is whether Dubai now requires a premium. When many of us came here, Dubai provided a lifestyle that didn't require a premium. In fact, Emirates did trade on that (no one ever accused them of not being shrewd). I think that what many of us are saying is that given the diminishing lifestyle factors of Dubai (both company induced and external), that a premium to live here is now in order. In fact, many other companies in Dubai are now starting to realize this. What many are also saying is that if the company addressed those issues that are under their control (rosters/fatigue, credit and in general, respect), that the premium would not need to be quite so large.

Does the pay increase address this? "Are they now paying me enough for this sh...?". I think that most of the responses here (which in my opinion tend to reflect the larger pilot force) answer that question.

chinawladi

18th Jan 2007, 10:56

If EK decided to offer these basings to 'new hires', this would cause a revolt within the present pilot group.

And just what would such a revolt look like??? Has there been any due to DEC's? Any due to the cheating on "cost neutral changes"? Or will there be any due to the horrible new pick-up times?

Nahh...,

It has been said before, they'll eventually open a basing in the USA or NZ for the "round the world" operation. It will be for new hires, to attract newbee's and it will. They will be on a different (much better) contract, fly only the back-side routes only, no contact with us, the left behinds.

Henrydog

18th Jan 2007, 11:43

Just what are these new pick up times?

uplock

18th Jan 2007, 12:23

Pick up Times depend where you live vary from 125min to 180 min an 210 if your next door in sharjah
http://i12.tinypic.com/2d0cmli.png

Ghostflyer

18th Jan 2007, 12:45

I reckon I might actually arrive over 2 1/2 hrs before the flight. What will I do? I hope I am going to get a Starbucks allowance and be allowed into the terminal. Maybe the new package includes a refuelling and loading allowance!

ShockWave

18th Jan 2007, 15:57

SW5 165= 2hrs 45min In 8 years it has never taken me longer than 1hr 20 min to get to the cbc/tbf/ops center/training center, if they arrive on time!
The average would be 45-50 min.
I think we have been shafted again with this one. Obviously the Audi drivers were consulted on this but how about us???
It will of course be easier for EK to fill each car with multiple pick ups now that they have extra time! For us poor, sleep deprived and fatigued aeroplane
drivers- we get an extra 30-40 min to spend driving around town or standing at the CBC.

Just a thought- Is it illegal for us to start flight planning prior to sign on time?
I mean are we not actually involved in the exercising of our legal responsibilities as flight crew while performing such duties as signing on, briefing, flight planning, FCIs, ordering fuel etc.
It is quite possible that a lot of us will now be signing on at the CBC around two hours before departure, yet our Duty time sign on time is being recorded as one hour prior, and our duty limits calculated from then. (illegally IMOH)

southflyer

18th Jan 2007, 16:10

don't worry guys and girls, if you arrive too early at the CBC, you can always step into the office and volunteer for some office duty...
Now, to stay at EK, these would be my priorities, not that anyone cares, but...
1. Base in Europe
2. Commuting roster
3. By-pass pay
4. Only flight duties
...and none of the above if our salary is increased at least 50% effective immediately...

PS. SW, I believe the check-in computers do not allow you to check-in before a particular time prior to your assigned flight.... so, no record of that..

BigGeordie

18th Jan 2007, 16:22

777Goose

18th Jan 2007, 16:38

Hmmmm if the car shows up at -165 do we actually have to board or why not wait until -135? I live near the 5th interchange and it only takes :30 to get to CBC unless in the afternoon rush. Are they pushing us to self drive??

Great turn out at Kimberlies memorial.........
My kids are +/- in age and it makes one wonder if it's all worth it!
All the best Marc. May you and the family have the strength to get through this one day at a time..

montencee

18th Jan 2007, 17:28

It will be worth considering the new pick up times when you decide if you want to go into discretion or not. If you are leaving the house 2 hours before your check in time that must be a factor in how tired you are.

Bit of thread creep here but noticed in the latest ASRs that a Captain recently operating on a four sector day stood the crew down after the second sector as he predicted that they would go into discretion on sector four. In return he was invited to spend his next day off discussing the event with an aviation doctor.

Back to the thread, this is a 6% pay rise come May + nominal flying pay, nothing more nothing less.

MR8

18th Jan 2007, 23:02

Although I know it's probably not worth the effort and the paper, but why not write a serious group letter to Ed, TCAS, TC, Maurice and HH? If we could verbalize our grievances in a serious constructive way in a letter that we post on pprune, post in CBC, as well as to all mentioned above, at least we can expect some answers. Lets start:

Dear Sirs,

....

MR8

Trashed Aviator

19th Jan 2007, 04:49

The transport issue is nothing more than a squeeze on conditions. EK and Al futtaim want you all to buy a second car , so in a few months when youre pissed off about the whole thing youll just drive yourself to work, and you can legally show up 1 hour before, with all the delays ex Dubai it wont make any difference to departure time. But EK will save loads on transport.
We will eventually erode our own conditions , in the future they may make pik up 4 hours before , hey the offers there but nobody will use it.
You cannot beat these pricks but they have lost all loyalty and many many guys are ready to jump.

410

19th Jan 2007, 06:01

I have to agree that only a very few would gain the advantage if a straight basing system was to be introduced. However, knowing EK, my guess would be that they would make any system they introduced so unattractive that few current pilots would (or could afford to) take them up, so then they’d be offered to new hires (which would have been the real plan from the start, as it’s new hires they’re trying to attract and can’t convince to come and live in Dubai).

But what could be made work – and very easily – would be a variation of the KAL system, (and not unlike what Wiley suggested) …or failing that, (and maybe even better than basings), allowing a number of pilots to write their rosters from a designated outport.– e.g. start duty as operating crew from the designated port of domicile, and fly a roster when and as required by EK for the next ‘n’ days of the month, ending with a final leg as operating crew back into port of domicile (and another pilot with the same domicile port takes the service out as operating crew).

Even this would only be available to a relatively small number of people, but I suppose it would be a case of ‘seniority rules’, so everyone would be able to look forward to getting one eventually if he wanted it – unless, of course, they come up with a separate package available only to new hires, which (sad to say) no one here would put past them.

Zer German

19th Jan 2007, 08:43

Guten haftanoon,

Zer pay rise is like zer Waffen SS; too liddle, too late! Zere SS vere to slow in dealink viz zere little 'Punch und Juden' problem, und zer 'problem' moved to ozzer kuntries to korse more problems. Even zat fantische aktor und Ozmate, Mel Gibsun, has been vingeing about zem causing all zer Vorld Vors.

I always said mein Furher vos innosent!

Zer same ist happenink in Emirates. Zer insuffishuntrisenontime inkrese ist nicht enuff to stem zer ourflow auf kvalitats Luftmen. Zer whores have bolted before zer doors vos closed, no; so to sprechen.

Ach, I know ve haf moved on lieblings, und kannot look at ze past, so, mein schnitzels, lettuce look into zer future mit mein prediktions:

a. Basinks; Only zer DEC's vill haf zem as even zey cannot afford to kum to zer land auf dates und funny salad, zat stiks on zer teeth. Zer EK Furher vill not allow zer konditions to improve. As zer Furher says; "If zey don't like it, zey kan Bumsen auf!"

b. Reichmarks: Only zer Ozmates deserve zer inkrese in zer money, as zey are ze only vuns kapable auf talking out of zere Ausgang holes! HA HA! Only joking mein prisoner Tommy's.

c. Drivink zer automobilen: Shtay at home und drink schnapps (but nicht before zer 4 hour before zer duty pickuppen)

d. Pik up timen: Ve vill build ze hotel at CBC so you kan kum to verk und never leave. Maximum prodoktivity viz kost neutral.

Auf wiedersen....

MR8

19th Jan 2007, 08:43

410,

I don't know about all that:

First of all, it would, as you state correctly, only be for a small minority. The rest of us would suffer NOT getting the valuable flights home evry now and then because they are most of the time taken by the people who are based there.

Second, althoug EK wouldn't have to provide accomodation for the commuters, they will need to be put in hotels for every night of their 'n' days. I just can't see how EK can provide a good basing package at the same cost of a pilot who is living in DXB. Don't forget the 'based' guy needs to pay taxes, social security, ...

Third, and I'm not sure about this. What is the ration expats/local guys in most airlines who offer basings? I think that in KAL, JAL, MAL, ... the locals outnumber the expats. So even if it's a small minority who gets basings, it's still a big part of the expats who can have it. (basings or commuting rosters)
I'm not sure how CQ handles their system, but I do know they have a Çathay City' or whatever it's called at HK airport for their crew to stay when in HK. I know they offer basings on the 747-classic, for Cathay Cargo, at a reduced package compared to the mainline. I have no idea about basings for Cathay mainline operations (although I heard of a A340 FO opening in Amsterdam recently).

So to be fair, I don't think basings will be a good solution for the problem. The way to go is commuting rosters with confirmed seats. It must be quite easy to accomplish that: work somebody for almost 90 hrs in 3 weeks, then 2 weeks off. This will result in a monthly average of about 75hrs. SO there is no loss of productivity. The guys opting for the system KNOW they would have to work hard in their 3 weeks on, but I think a lot of us wouldn't mind, considering the time of at HOME you get after that.

atiuta

19th Jan 2007, 10:16

The only difference between a commuting roster with confirmed seats and a basing, is that the commuting roster starts in Dubai.

I think all parties would prefer the pilot to work the sector when possible, although sometimes a positioning sector will be required. Commuting in Emirates will involve a lot of dead time and it is NOT a good long term solution for the majority.

Korean have basings but typically (correct me if I'm wrong) deadheads pilots to the base. It isn't an attractive option to me for that reason, I'd prefer to operate and be productive which = more days off.

Cathay bases pilots and some bases are more popular than others, but it works and they are a similar size to Emirates. F/O's on a base have to return to HKG for a command, some defer commands for the lifestyle option. It appears that most pilots could have taken a base in some form in the last ten years. I also heard that they offered temporary bases as well, another option.

There is a lot more to basings than meets the eye. To be content with tickets for commuting is way too simplistic in my book.

MR8

19th Jan 2007, 11:00

atiuta,

I agree with some of what you say. The big difference though is that the troops that scream for basings are mainly the same nationalities. I think most of them are actually Ozzies and Kiwis, some English/European.
If you look at the Ozzies, that would mean that only a small amount of people would be able to be based home. They would do the most of the Ozzie flights, leaving the rest of us with no flights there (which might be home as well) and doing the cr@p to Japan, India, Middle East, Africa,...
Basings as you put it, would be only a good thing to a minority, giving the majority a headache and a roster which is even worse then now.

A second problem would be that of equipment change. If we look at Oz flights again. SYD is done on the A345 now, but will in the near future apparently change to the B777. In a few years, it is most probable that the A380 will go on that route. How would you accomodate for those changes on a basing system?

A commuting roster on the other hand will give everybody a fair chance to bid for destinations and it doesn't really matter on what equipment you passenger home for your 2 weeks or so off.

I think if you want to reach something (in any company), you have to come with a reasonable well thought and proof proposal which has little or no flaws. Otherwise it's too easy for the management to disregard whatever you came up with.
Personally I think basings as you put it, are a step too far from where we are now. Although I don't say that it would be impossible in the future.

But wasn't the thread about the new conditions?

I hear that colleagues are actually very pleased with the 18% payrise. Please guys, before screaming around that we have 18%, do the math. On a realistic yearly roster, you will have a payrise of around 14%, not more, probably a bit less. Whether or no you are happy with this payrise, that's completely up to you, but don't go yell around the wrong numbers. If someone could PM me some rosters of last year with their grade and seniority, I'd be happy to work out the REAL payrise.

MR8

uplock

19th Jan 2007, 11:13

The start of the tread was correct its a 6% pay rise...try telling your bank manager you have more than that and show him the paper work its 6 % pay rise guys

Short summary
6% on basic
3% for those eligible (increment)
45 dhs/hr flying pay for Captains
35 dhs/hr flying pay for F/O's
Both of the above are up to the present productivity levels
Review of education/utilities allowances
Review for training and management pilots
Effective 01 May 2007.
Just the facts.

Wizofoz

19th Jan 2007, 12:41

So 75*45 (3375 where I come from!!) is "A little extra"?

watertheflowers

19th Jan 2007, 12:52

So 75*45 (3375 where I come from!!) is "A little extra"?

Not to be sniffed at, but as usual you're missing the big picture aren't you Wiz?

Don't forget to log out now.

dunerider

19th Jan 2007, 12:57

The basings and or commuting type rosters will only come about when they need to use that trump card to attract new joiners.We will soon be car pooling and doing more pick ups on the way with the extra time they have bought themselves.The DSO guys will be using a bus system.The list goes on and on.Did I mention the 1000 hrs a year.You guys need to understand very rarely do things like flight pay and payrises come for free around here.

Dune

19th Jan 2007, 12:58

Muttley Crew:
As far as I know, EK cannot do away with the transport altogther as someone theorised. It's a gov't requirement here, just like it is for the busloads of jinglies you see over-turned on the SZR from time to time. Only difference is we only squeeze two pax in.

Pretty sure you're incorrect here. My wife does not get driven to work and I have friends working in DXB who are doctors, engineers and mid-level executives at several companies who do not get driven to work.

uplock

19th Jan 2007, 13:46

My money is with M.C. Dune

The norm in Dubai is that a Transport Allowance or Transport is provided. Check out the Grapeshisha web site (http://www.grapeshisha.com/UAE-salary-structure-and-components.html)for some general job info on Dubai

The UAE labor Law is on line here (http://www.mol.gov.ae/Pages-EN/documents-en/rule-labour.HTML) trawled through it there was only section 101

Article 101

Each employer employing workers in areas remote from towns and not covered by regular means of transport shall provide his workers with the following services:

1- Suitable means of transport.

donpizmeov

19th Jan 2007, 14:53

Louise Roselle, one of the attorneys representing victims' families, said the pilots' conversation about searching for other jobs reinforces one of the central issues in the lawsuits related to the crash.
"It reinforces how Comair has been treating its pilots," Roselle said.
---
Associated Press writer Brett Barrouquere in Louisville, Ky., contributed to this report.

Did long range Ed ever work for Comair?

Don

L1011

20th Jan 2007, 05:21

The core of the issue is that many of the guys (not just the old-timers) do not want their families to live in Dubai. The reasons may vary, but it is a personal decision. If you love living in Dubai - good on yer. Enjoy it.
Is management going to accept this and deal with it, or bury their heads in the sand? The future of the airline may well depend on how this issue is handled.
How about trying a long term experiment? Call a series of meeting (on a day off naturally) for anyone intersted to come and discuss the pros and cons.Try commute/remote rostering for at least 10 months (two roster cycles). The main commute destinations will probably be LHR/LGW/MAN/FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH/SYD/MEL/JNB. All these places have two flights day, allow three days a week for training/line bids and block the remaining four days for the commuters.
Assign rosters (no bidding) for the guys who want to participate in the experiment. Guarantee that they will spend ten days at base (two blocks of 5) per month. Put two of the more competent schedulers in charge of crewing the flights as efficiently possible, operate or deadhead (jumpseat) depending on what is feasible.
Revisit after ten months and analyse. Publish the figures and have another forum to discuss it. Ensure the whole process is transparent and cost-neutral. Then plan for the long-term. Reallistically we can't have bases until the 380/777 is all sorted out and we know where the aircraft go. But if we try it this year, we will be better informed when the bases become reality in 2008/09.
Of course I am only dreaming, none of this will evr happen :{

chinawladi

20th Jan 2007, 19:54

Some interesting postings on the thread. It seems that the predominant issue is about having the family in Dubai. I totally agree. The city is developing a hostile environment for the kids and the missus once she gets fed up with Karama or the MoE. To know they have to venture on Dubai’s roads every day becomes unbearable and if you want to choose either school or home to minimize this impact, you’re confronted with unbearable costs and timeframes. I suppose that given a little more time to the miserably organised megalomania of Dubai’s infrastructure, even a suparcalifragilistic payrise would not hold back the exodus of fed-up families and with them their dad-pilot. EK might think that they can fill the gap with newbees, but they get somewhat rare and if they want to take in the still waiting but less experienced, then their training expenditure gets too big (and if they hate something, it's "cost"). - What to do, as EK can’t stop the screwing up of the neighborhoods, roads, beaches, clubs, desert (in short: Lifestyle)?
All our ideas rotate around commuting rosters and basings, and they are certainly the shortest term solutions to the threatening pilot shortage. Many would then consider staying longer. It wouldn’t be rocket science to implement and it would certainly be COST NEUTRAL (Squeely!!), but it would need a little less ego and a little more brain power.
But I’m afraid that as long as such ******* ******** like AAR and TC remain in their armchairs, nothing will happen. Their ego would rather run EK into the ground than give us the minimum we request as to retain the majority among us.
But maybe EK could make a survey among the Audi-drivers, this will certainly bring up a similarly intelligent answer to this topic as the new pick-up scam.

Not from here

21st Jan 2007, 03:19

Looks like they will now save some money on overtime payments,
As effectively they have been reduced the overtime rate Capts 45 P/hr and F/O 35 p/hr,
I am still trying to work out how I got a 18% pay rise, when I work it out it’s a lot less then that???

uplock

21st Jan 2007, 04:19

Fact

On the Bus Fleet You will be assigned overtime and no way to bid avoid flying overtime. Why the smoke and mirrors in the letter to pilots over Flight Pay when Flight Pay STOPS when you go into overtime?

Quote below from the letter

Introduction of Hourly Flying Pay Flying Pay will be paid for all actual block hours commencing from "1 hour " up to the level of the "Productivity Pay Threshold " AFTER which Productivity Pay would commence at the current rate. The hourly Flying Pay will be at the rate of Dhs 45 per block hour for a Captain and Dhs 35 per block hour for a First Officer

To further test your intelligence as others have pointed out the money you receive doing Overtime or productivity is LESS than your hourly pay rate.

So not only do you have no choice to do overtime but you will be paid LESS for it.

What ever the spin put on by the company this remains ONLY a 6% increase

fatbus

21st Jan 2007, 04:57

The longer you are at EK the less the pay raise. The example used was for new FO and new DEC.

fatbus

21st Jan 2007, 07:27

I think the 75 hr ref was just an example, I take it as 45/hr up to the o/t make then a pay drop after that and a bigger drop in pay if you have been here for a while

616200

21st Jan 2007, 07:33

[QUOTE=Muttley Crew;3080847]No. Flight pay stops when you reach 75 hours.
Not really,the 75 hours is only an example. The hourly flight pay stops when you reach the productivity pay limit for the given month that dipends on how many days that specific month has.
Happy open days flying:E

montencee

21st Jan 2007, 09:09

Except that if the company still accepts that it is going to lose people, it wants it to be the senior people on high increments that go first.

Having said that the early announcement of the pay review indicates a shift in their crew retention policy that previously consisted of just f*** 'em.

white rat

21st Jan 2007, 09:27

Aiming Point said, Getting rid of the rotating bid groups will give an incentive to stay longer, recognises loyalty and contribution, has no cost impact and has the much added benefit of allowing pilots based in Dubai to at least get back to their families as much as possible in a month.

Amen Brother!

But will we ever see this?:sad:

uplock

21st Jan 2007, 09:49

Hi Muttley sorry your wrong Fatbus has it correct the quote I used was directly from the company letter As in most letters you need to read it several times to see what was slipped in. EK have never given something away for nothing.

Cabin Crew Flight pay does not stop at any thresh hold yet whith our scheme once you reach the productivity level for the month (when your over time payment kicks in) then you will not get Flight Pay. Wheres the logic in that?

To add insult the Productivity Pay (Overtime Payment) is less than your normal Hourly Flight Pay Rate, and you do not have a choice, you have to do Overtime some months.

Personally I am not interested at all in flying overtime. We were promised over a year ago by A.S that more pilots would be employed and we could enjoy flying around 780 hours a year. A.S even took the bold initative to blame the previous head of Flight Ops for all the problems.

What the company failed to take in to account was a massive increase in resignations as well as finding it difficult to recruit suitable candidates. They grossley underestimated the number of guys leaving and would continue to leave. Some how I think they have under estimated the numbers again.

Few points worth noting.
This letter has been produced 5 months before we even see a rise. Why not implement a rise NOW?
Company are making record profits again
The Oil Price continues to drop
Over seas Revenues ( Pound , Euro, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Dollars) continue to rise against the AED and US Dollar.
When was the last time we had a Pow Wow with our Leaders....

Fart Master

21st Jan 2007, 12:53

Actually I think that the rotating bid groups are a very good idea to retain people, as they benefit a lot more people than they don't. It's ok if you are senior to have a fixed system, but I thinks it's nice to give everyone a crack at a good roster, thats if the system isn't played around with tho.

Another thought I had that was mentioned was that when you reach the overtime limit you should get your OT hourly pay + your 35/45 dhs/hour as well.

As I said before this raise will just about cover the 20-25% inflation in Dxb over the last year to 18 months.

Kawasaki787

21st Jan 2007, 13:20

Heard FZ resigned because:
Scored 3 in PPC (office work lead to less flying practice)
Not enough mngmnt pay.

Apparently, he got a grade 3 on his last line check as well!!! Yet he has the guts to give a hard time to others!!!

Kawasaki787

21st Jan 2007, 13:38

I agree that it is better than nothing, but, I must stress that this increase is PART of the pay that EK took away from it's pilots. About 18 montns back. pilots were given a months notice of the change with an "attitude of take it or leave" So be advised that things change at EK without notice, but pilots are required to give 3 months notice for resigning.
Inflation in Dubai is skyrocketting every year, the yearly 3% EK increment increase is insuficient, particularly when last week the Dubai Goverment raised salaries between 40 - 80%!!!
EK also need to address rosters and layover time. At the moment one flies during the day to a European destination then returns after 24 hours. How is it possible to have 2x 8 hr sleeps in a 24 hour!!! 8+8=16. 24-16=8!! After arriving to Dubai you are then sent off on a graveyard 3am flight to the sub-continent or even worse to Japan!! Again on a minimum layover. This continues non-stop to 900 hours a year. No wonder pilots are sick, fatigued and leaving. They have to reduce the yearly hours on LONG-HAUL flying to 750.
Flight Ops managers are not aware of the flying culture that exixts at EK. So if the left does not know what the right is doing then you have a guess.
Safe landings.

atiuta

21st Jan 2007, 16:58

Apparently, he got a grade 3 on his last line check as well!!! Yet he has the guts to give a hard time to others!!!

Considering your statement from a curtain of anonymity, what makes you any different?

GoreTex

21st Jan 2007, 17:26

FZ is a w****r he destroyed somebodys career just to show off when GN departed, he thinks he knows more than the psycologist and told one guy he is not fit to be in command for psychological reasons even the shrink said he is more than ok.

atiuta

22nd Jan 2007, 05:22

Refer my previous post.

GoreTex

22nd Jan 2007, 06:26

atiuta, and you are?

atiuta

22nd Jan 2007, 08:27

We all use the protection of anonymity that this forum provides. Most of us do so to avoid any possible degree of vindictive response, typically because of our geographic location.

Unsubstantiated personal attacks that name an individual do not do enhance our collective professional reputation and personally I see it to be a classic case of "the pot calling the kettle black".

My post questions the ethics of identifying an individual, name calling and general "slagging" all from the sanctity of an unidentified user name. Ethically it would be in the same category as the so called perpertrator.

southflyer

22nd Jan 2007, 10:26

I agree with Warlock,
I will be OK doing 3 JFKs per month and then bugging off..... or 3 SYDs, or 3 MELs, or 4 Japans or chinas or Koreas... etc
That way you family guys can stay at home in DXB all the time and do the short turn-arounds.....

maybe it's time the fleets were split, i.e., A330.... and A340.... I keep having to do recency simulators every 90 days to keep legal on the 330 anyway.. not too cost efficient, me thinks...

grumpy_bugger

23rd Jan 2007, 08:55

Not only do SFS Cabin Crew get more flying pay than a Captain they have had their rosters for the past 3 or 4 days :rolleyes:

L1011

23rd Jan 2007, 09:37

Aiming Point, like your post. Stright seniority would be a great idea.

Let's look at the Pro's:
Cost Neutral! In fact no action required from the company at all.
Will retain the senior skippers - who cost about AED 1M to replace - figure from HR not my imagination.
New guys will do about three months on RSV, then never see that mess gain - the expansion will take care of that.
FM - don't think it will bother anyone who is here now, in the long term. We are suppose to triple in size remember. Everyone will be in in the top third of list.

And the Con's:
It will inconvenience DECs.
Oh well, that's it then. Long Haul Ed and Capt. America will make sure it never happens.

Marooned

23rd Jan 2007, 10:12

Standards meeting 22nd:

After Ed complimented everyone for their hard work/commitment which was directly responsible for the high standards at EK, he continued to tell us that the reason the pay rise was not implimented in Jan was that it was not in the 06/07 budget and would therefore effect everyones profit share adversely... so in effect the pilots would get the blame for a poor share throughout The Group... I kid you not.

His underwhelming speech fell on the stoney ground of a demoralised, could give a s**t audience which has heard it all before...except the budget bit, that was rich.

It got worse through the day as we were told that it was patently obvious that we are cronically short of trainers and pilots and that May/June should see the problem parking aircraft. Out sourcing of training (at much greater cost to the company) is actively being pursued to help deal with the situation with several agencies that were contacted unable to help due to high workloads themselves (BA, Althoen, Boeing). (I wonder if this was in the 06/07 budget).

Apparently the 'senior management' have been approached by our immediate managers in an attempt to communicate the problems but the impression I got was that 'NOTHING' is being done about it.

More resignations, lower standards of new recruits/DECs was also communicated...

EK is in crisis. The pilots know it, the training department know it, anyone around an EK aircraft knows it, but it still fails to penetrate the thick padded walls of those responsible for the situation in the first place...

grumpy_bugger

23rd Jan 2007, 10:49

What was the response to your request for training pay; it is something I have also considered and am in the same (stinking leaking) boat that you are. Wait...let me guess...NO RESPONSE? That is the normal one we get when "they" dont like the question.:mad:

montencee

24th Jan 2007, 15:35

Ever had a day when you thought that maybe things are not so bad at EK after all? I had one recently, but it didn't last long.

I just logged onto Fleet Facts for Jan and attempted to digest the patronising twaddle written by Ed (a self confessed non expert) about Cabin Crew Briefings by Flight Deck crew. I've been very happy with the 3 minute rule, but now find that I'm expected to spend up to 10 minutes 'building bridges' and not looking at my shoes. Guess this is why the pick up times have been brought forward.

But this is as nothing compared to the unattributed spiel (Al?) further down the page about Sim duties when hitting 900 hours. This policy is criminal, in the same way that factoring was criminal, 10 sim duties, whether day or night, in a month legally required for recuperation after exceeding the 900 hour FTL is morally reprehensible.

Fleet Facts; a stomach churning cure all for outbreaks of improving morale.

Username1

24th Jan 2007, 20:18

Do captains make less money in flying hours than cabin crew?. Impossible
:\

ruserious

25th Jan 2007, 02:43

Do captains make less money in flying hours than cabin crew?. Impossible
Its not a valid comparison as we get payed in a completely different fashion. Cabin Crew have always had about 50% of their wages paid with a hourly portion and 50% basic wage. Flight deck have just had the hourly portion introduced, historically most of our pay has been a basic wage. So you really can't compare the two.
However the new hourly pay is a fiddle to get around giving us a proper pay rise that has an erp, profit share and pensionable aspect to it. It is just another cynical effort by our management and the bean counters to pretend they are giving us something significant, when they are plainly not.

uplock

25th Jan 2007, 03:53

Hey Marooned Would have been a bit close to the bone for Edd to admit that Management really dont want their profit share diluted in way shape or form what so ever.

Why do we here the same tune evry year but just in a different key ....geeze they have started early this time around, must be a dung pile full of money waiting to be distributed as profit share for Miss Management.

What about the Oil price which has dropped so much which they budgeted for long with the huge revenues from the increase in Foreign Currencies against the UAE Dirham...mmm guess its easier to blame the pilots

Nice One Edd

After Ed complimented everyone for their hard work/commitment which was directly responsible for the high standards at EK, he continued to tell us that the reason the pay rise was not implimented in Jan was that it was not in the 06/07 budget and would therefore effect everyones profit share adversely... so in effect the pilots would get the blame for a poor share throughout The Group... I kid you not.

Mysalami

25th Jan 2007, 04:21

Should that be "Profit Share (pbuh)". Often see it in the paper that way.

Oblaaspop

25th Jan 2007, 06:34

:ok: 'Kin funny! Nice one

Marooned

25th Jan 2007, 08:00

Agreed Uplock...

To recap: They announce a reviewed pay package which I assume was to stop pilots leaving out the back door and attract more through the front.

Since the announcement: The pay package has been deferred until May (because Ed didn't have the authority in the first place to suggest it would be implimented in January as the 06/07 budget didn't foresee any requirement to attract or keep pilots). When finally implimented in May (perhaps) I assume it will effectively be frozen for the next financial year as the 07/08 budget constraints will again ignore crewing levels and attrition rates.

In addition to the current attempt to keep pilots:

Duty time has increased, not the virtual one that EK submits to the GCAA, but the actual duty we do on a daily basis in crew transport and post trip.
Ground school has been offloaded into our free time and will be extended as it 'has been a success' according to 777 Cheif Pilot (as it prevented aircraft being grounded due to 1000s of pilot hours being released for line work). This alone could have funded the payrise.
Company required visas to be done on our days off.
If you do work hard and exceed 900 hours, you will be required to do simulator duties.
In the meantime the airline is unsuccessfully seeking training outside of the company due to the cronic lack of capacity within (not budgeted) as insufficient numbers of EK pilots have applied to become trainers as you can earn more as a line pilot. (I assume this extra cost was not in the 06/07 budget, which will cost the company 2 to 3 times more than keeping training in-house). Regardless this outsourcing will still not prevent aircraft parking very soon.

Almost forgot... jump seat blocked again (TCs decision no doubt).

And the fiddle keeps on playing in EKHQ...

donpizmeov

25th Jan 2007, 08:08

Not to worry Montencee, I believe this SIM when you've done your 900hr scam is another way to encourage people to fly on their days off. It would seem to be as well thought out as most other decisions around here.

Don

uplock

25th Jan 2007, 12:52

Mr Edd's argument is hard to follow as in the Paper every one trusts and has to readThe Gulf news Business section today has this article (http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10099339.html)
Seems EK have 3 Billion $$ Green ones lying around...
The carrier is seeking compensation from Airbus to make up for the revenue lost through the delays.
"We won't be modest in our demands," Flanagan said. "When we get our first A380 we should have had 18, a huge hit on the airline and on its revenue producing capability."
Emirates has a cash balance of $3 billion at the moment so doesn't need to borrow to finance fleet expansion. In April at the end of its financial year, the airline will announce profits higher than last year's, Flanagan said, declining to be specific.

So there you have it from the man in the know Mr Flanagan says EK will announce profits higher than last years.....

Thylakoid

25th Jan 2007, 16:11

This cabin crew briefing is bull!! Once you tell them the flight time, the altitude, and the weather, you lose them. Whatever else you have to say, will be to the walls of the room.

EGGW

26th Jan 2007, 05:32

Before my upgrade i saw some hilariously bad briefings by Captains. The best was going on a DOH, the guy spent 20 mins, i kid u not, briefing on how to board the bus yadada. Bored the tits off me.
I've heard from Cabin crew of one guy recently asking them pass or fail questions, i thought that was the pursers job. Then this whole process made them late at the aircraft, tosser.

Most and i mean most do great briefs, short n sweet. I now delegate that its the pursers job to get all the cabin crew to visit the f/deck for team buidling purposes :E Thats an operational reason in compliance with the FOM. :ok:

EGGW

Dr Know

26th Jan 2007, 19:46

Thought the Y2K bug was a bad one...!
Rumer has it that the 1st O'March bug last for 30min and comes around at pickup time.....No cure yet!
Seems 2 me that mr driver will have 2 wait....Sh!T happens!:\

donpizmeov

27th Jan 2007, 15:38

Sorry to tell you peedoff, but you do not get paid for the 60min before a flight. You get paid from when the brake gets released to when the brake gets applied (or the companies guess at how long that will be, which is less than actual in a lot of cases!). Your duty period starts 60mins before STD, not your pay.

Don

Trashed Aviator

28th Jan 2007, 03:01

Will we get paid actual flight time in May under the new rules or will it still be the companies guess.
Is anybody interested in forming a pilot representitive group to bring likes and dislikes to the companies attention.

ratpoison

28th Jan 2007, 03:35

Because that would be "industrial action". A big no-no.

Well Mutt, if every one had the balls to stick together and did it, I doubt they would end up throwing all 1500 pilots into prison and shutting the airline down. One thing that EK cant handle and that's bad publicity.

Backwater

28th Jan 2007, 04:36

Talk of pilot representative groups; unions; industrial action...

Guys, this is the Middle East. Beyond the gloss and hype of Dubai you still have a ruling class that is fundamentally conservative and traditional. Therefore they still value LOYALTY over all other things (confirmed by HH SA in a recent copy of the staff paper).

Loyalty is important of course because without it control is more difficult. Loss of employee loyalty is seen as a loss of control. We are talking obout some deep-seated fears here. Show disloyalty in any form and you are finished.

I can't see a change from the 'stick' management style currently in force. They will continue to come up with nonsense solutions to all sorts of issues from crew transport to pay structure. But rather than try to make them see sense, better to play the game at their level. That means...

1. Stay below their radar.
2. Utilise Evita '2' option when Adopt fails to do it's job.
3. Put yourself and family first in all decisions.
4. Try not to read PPRuNe!
5. Update your CV and start looking around.
6. When the time is right for you, go home and get on with your life.

Now I'm off to take my own advice!

Gillegan

28th Jan 2007, 05:41

Talk of pilot representative groups; unions; industrial action...
Guys, this is the Middle East. Beyond the gloss and hype of Dubai you still have a ruling class that is fundamentally conservative and traditional. Therefore they still value LOYALTY over all other things (confirmed by HH SA in a recent copy of the staff paper).
Loyalty is important of course because without it control is more difficult. Loss of employee loyalty is seen as a loss of control. We are talking obout some deep-seated fears here. Show disloyalty in any form and you are finished.
I can't see a change from the 'stick' management style currently in force. They will continue to come up with nonsense solutions to all sorts of issues from crew transport to pay structure. But rather than try to make them see sense, better to play the game at their level. That means...
1. Stay below their radar.
2. Utilise Evita '2' option when Adopt fails to do it's job.
3. Put yourself and family first in all decisions.
4. Try not to read PPRuNe!
5. Update your CV and start looking around.
6. When the time is right for you, go home and get on with your life.
Now I'm off to take my own advice!

One of the most succinct summaries of the situation and some of the best advice I've seen here.

Snake man

28th Jan 2007, 06:15

Backwater, you get my vote for president! A mind like yours is wasted on aviation!

SM

Trashed Aviator

29th Jan 2007, 02:43

I would just love to see 1500 pilots marching down SZroad in uniform with banners and yelling , at least it could be a guiness book record attempt.
Anyway there is already a union house, union pacific(UP) , union co-op,the new national airline is Etihad or union in english also known as united. And the mosques yell 5 times a day or more and we aint allowed to speak up , what a ****en joke.

Scooter Rassmussin

29th Jan 2007, 02:48

Imagine 1500 pilots getting deported at the same time.
Speaking of mosques Im really spaced out from them , I am thinking of moving to silicon oasis it there any mosques out there or plans to build them.
Also I heard the union office is at silicon,:D in an underground nuclear proof shelter.

dubsor

29th Jan 2007, 05:41

Gents, before we get too estatic about the suposed payrise consider the following:
1. Going on leave for a month? Personally I'll be AED3,375 short.
2. For the same reason dont get sick!
3. Profidentfund contributions?
4. Loss of licence payout obviously calculated on basic pay!
5. Profitshare calculations?

Once again the management at EK are showing their true colours, considering we have been pulling in record profits over the last few years! Can anyone imagine what they will come up with if we start loosing money!!!?

Keep on recovering!

disconnected

29th Jan 2007, 16:10

This is not about this year's pilots salary budget. My guess is they have worked the figures over the next 5 or 10 years. Into this will be factored:

Savings on Provident Fund contributions
Savings on Profit Sharing
Savings on Sickness
Savings on Insurance/Loss of Licence
Etc Etc. There are probably other advantages.

Each year they can tweak the hourly allowance and call it a raise but the spreadsheets have been run for a few years ahead. It results in a big saving in the long run. That means a big cost to us.

Crinklstein

29th Jan 2007, 18:22

When I signed the bottom of my 'golden contract' I went in with my eyes wide open. I knew how much they were going to pay me. I knew the allowances were dismal, and I knew than any annual payrise was 'money for jam'. How can I or anyone else for that matter turn around now and say after signing an agreement based on a certain understanding that 'they' are not paying me enough? Maybe we all should try to find happiness or fullfilment outside of how much money we make and look maybe at others less fortunate. It is better therefore to give than to receive. Thanks for the payrise EK. I certainly was not expecting anything more than what I signed for...2 payrises in 2 years, wow! Better than any union has ever done for me thats for sure.

:yuk: Crinklstein

ernestkgann

29th Jan 2007, 21:57

Nice first post. I agree that it is much better to be given a pay rise than a pay cut. But why do you think that the management raised our pay? It certainly isn't because they wanted to make your life more pleasant. They did it because they need to staff their expansion plans and maximise profits. Why haven't they the staff? Emirates offers fast commands on the most modern aircraft in the world, open ended contracts, accommodation and medical care. Dubai is exciting and vibrant and has endless sunshine.
The bosses don't have the staff because the realities of the job and life in Dubai as reported by word of mouth and on forums like this mean the 'package' doesn't stack up. Not having any other realistic vehicle to express opinions about conditions of service, ek staff members tend to use this forum to air their grievances.
It is one of the reasons those conditions have recently improved. Not enough though because I think the long term viability of the work conditions here is the real problem. Still if you have to spend most of your time at work or home dealing with company issues then you may as well get paid for it.
It's nice that you've just signed a contract and your happy with it but bear in mind all the people who go before you that secured your contractual conditions. If it really is enough then volunteer for a pay freeze and take up a position as a sim instructor - enjoy.

rjdrvr

29th Jan 2007, 22:42

Are you withEmitares?Short summary

6% on basic
3% for those eligible (increment)

45 dhs/hr flying pay for Captains
35 dhs/hr flying pay for F/O's
Both of the above are up to the present productivity levels

Review of education/utilities allowances
Review for training and management pilots

Effective 01 May 2007.

Just the facts.

rjdrvr

29th Jan 2007, 22:44

Anybody on who's with Emirates? I'm thinking of applying and have alot of questions.

1. What a/c is used for the sim evaluation?
2. Whats on the sim evaluation
3. Whats on the tech exam?
4. Emirates has a housing allowance or will put you up somewhere. Do they have a "dorm" system?
5. Does the UAE allow pets (my cat) into the country?

Ahad Adump

30th Jan 2007, 01:15

Crinkle cut

For guys like us, this is heaven.
The inflation here doesn’t affect us because we live on alfalfa seeds planted in the back garden.
Traffic does not exist because we walk and cycle around town, visiting other vegan friends.
The roster doesn’t bother us because we listen to whale music after heavy flights and just chill out.
The 2 tier legal system is up our ally, just turn the other cheek brother.
I have baked some gluten-free biscuits for the labourers across the road, the ones who have been banging away all night.
You must get the latest Peruvian pan flute cd to play in the Audi on the way to work and remember to give the driver a cup of home grown herbal tea.
I have changed my standing bid to night turn-arounds only, to help my EK brethren.
K9 can have my pay rise; I do not need earthly things.

It is better to give than receive.

donpizmeov

30th Jan 2007, 02:48

Ahad Adump,

I have just spat my organically grown coffee all over my solar powered computer!!!!

Good work fella.

Don

Crinklstein

30th Jan 2007, 03:49

Ahad a Dump: Very funny...really. And to all others that have laboured long and hard to secure my 'new' working conditions by airing their unhappiness on forums like these, I thank you. Carry on campaigning!

Back to my herbal tea and whale music then... Crinklstein :yuk:

helen-damnation

30th Jan 2007, 03:56

AA,

Excellent post, just back from the standard overnight and larfed so hard I've woken up :eek:

H-D

chinawladi

30th Jan 2007, 04:26

Captain America is back ..... ! :{

donpizmeov

30th Jan 2007, 04:58

Seems someone upset the new boy. Bugg@!!!!:E
Off to give and not receive.

Don

Craic Ore

1st Feb 2007, 01:34

Backwater,

I agree, loyalty is what they most want to see. Our regal boss, Mr AAR, when finding out that a few boys were applying to Dragonair a couple of years back, said 'tell me their names and get rid of them. If they don't want to work here, we don't want them!" True story from a guy that was in the meeting. Nice place to work hey?

The only thing I have to say about loyalty is that it's a shame it's a one way street. I'd be nice to see a little coming back our way. Things like this tend to feed off of each other....

CO

chinawladi

1st Feb 2007, 03:21

Loyalty a one way street? It is stuck in grid-lock traffic for a while now:yuk:

mini cooper

1st Feb 2007, 13:37

On a slightly different thread, I think its wonderful that everyone is getting 30 days leave this year - I thought the contract said 42 days!!! In my case it is totally laughable because having been given the 30 days that I apparently should be so happy about, they still owe me 33
PS not a hope in hell of gettting the extra 33 days this year if you look at the leave calendar. They still insist we are not short of pilots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BIKKERDENNAH

1st Feb 2007, 23:35

I remember when nobody i mean nobody ever responded to anything on this forum positively more importantly negatively. About Emirates.

The airline was reasonably happy and therefore there was no reason to bitch or complain.

However from 2003 onwards this has not been the case. Something has been introduced into the greater scheme of things that has caused massive discontent amongst the people that mean the most to the ultimate expansion plans and longevity of this airline and for that matter DUBAI, that is its PILOT workforce and that of its frontline personnel in general.

5 years ago, you would not hear very blatant SLAGGING off of this airlines product or its practices RE COST CUTTING, which is the management BUZZ word of modern aviation. But now on any crew bus return to CBC, that is all you hear, tired this fatigued that, cannnot wait to leave this, i have already resigned that, ETC ETC ETC . It is disheartning and demoralizing and unfortunately most of it is true and well deserved.

This airline will yet again announce record profits on the backs of its VERY cheap labour force, and behind closed doors will be patting each other on their backs for a job well done!!

The crux of the matter is something needs to be done to improve morale in this forever declining atmosphere of contempt and disgust for this company. To start with the removal of those disgusting and provocotive FULL blown posters and banners in customs telling us to stop being THEIVING BASTARDS.

This company is heading into decline, we are peaking now but are relying on great PR which i cannot deny,BUT THAT is the only department I am willing to concede to as being GREAT!!!!! The rest is mediocre!! AT BEST!! :ugh:

I will not say to anybody do not come and see for yourselves, infact i openly encourage it. However does anybody not get a pang of guilt or embarresment when they see an open TOP bus Trawling the streets of Dubai taking tourists to see the TOP SPOTS of dubai in stinking heat, caught in the nightmare of 24 hour traffic. To see those poor tourists in that open top bus sitting there in pain having spent over the top prices to see WHAT exactly, EMIRATES MALL, THE BURJ, just what exactly!!!

So when all the first timers have been DUPED to spending 24 hours here, do you think we are going to get return business, my guess is a big fat NO!!!:=

Is this airline going to survive the next TEN years without a serious unblockable, newsworthy INCIDENT, or god forbid the worst case senario, in my humble opinion NAHH!

We are entering a VERY VERY crucial stage in the further developement and expansion of this airline, and all trends, however profitable in the short term,point to an underlying trend of decline in the quality and motivation of its frontline staff!!

Take heed Emirates, you are ****ting in your own nest!! Unless you like the smell of your own faeces you had better be more mindful and respecful of your frontline staff and find ways to motivate staff,retain pilots and entice quality pilots to join OR face the the inevitable fact that you will ALWAYS be an ALSO RAN second string airline with great PR!!

Over and OUT!!:ugh:

Wiley

2nd Feb 2007, 04:49

BIKKERDENNAH makes an interesting point - I can remember only a year or two ago quite a few people (myself included, I think) lambasting Cap56 (in any one of his many guises) and defending EK against his (what to most if us then seemed) unfair criticism of the company.

I haven't noticed any posts on this forum from Cap56 in quite a while, but find myself wondering if the same people who came out of the woodwork to defend EK then would be as vocal today as they were then.

Like BIKKERDENNAH, I have to admit to some serious concern for the future of EK unless someone at or near the top addresses the issues that are so concerning many if not most of the pilots in the company. I'm not a malcontent - anyone who takes the time to look through my posts on this forum will find that I'm not one of those who usually moan about EK - but I have to admit to being very worried about the future of the company.

Most of the areas of concern could be quite easily addressed, and I suspect some of the fixes would actually save the company money, if only in reduced wastage ffrom disaffected pilots leaving.

Antman

2nd Feb 2007, 08:08

Maybe we all should try to find happiness or fullfilment outside of how much money we make
True, I think this is a valid point, BUT it is a bit difficult to do this when you're always at bloody work.
I for one would happily give up the increase if I could only work my contracted hours and get my 42 days leave to pursue things which increase my happiness. However the reality is I have avergaged 95 hrs block (115 - 130Hrs Credit!!!!!!) for the last six months and spend a good deal of my time off just trying to fell human.
So it's not all about money but unfortunately thay don't get it:ugh:

uplock

2nd Feb 2007, 08:49

The Latest Fleet Facts should explain clearly that the message will not get through.Just read what is said about SIM support duties on page 22 !

Company FCI 2006 Instruction that Pilots who have exceeded the 900 hour total will now be rosterd for up to a maximum of 5 simm support sessions

Changed again in 2007 to now allow an additional 5 Standby Simm Support ( SSS )all though it really should go by the name Sly Sneaky Simm Support so now its perfectly ok to roster a guy for 10 support Simm Sessions in the month he should be recovering and having nothing at all to do with flying.

Read the last paragraph of the Fleet Facts when it is stated that “This stand by time cannot be used for line flights”…….Hate to state the obvious but isn’t the reason the guy is Rosterd OFF then later given SIMM STBY was because he was out of hours in the first place.

Just to make it clear, Company are OK with you as a Captain or support pilot in the simm to a guy doing a PPC or Upgrade when your rosterd off for exceeding the legal Flying Hour Limitation. Is this not 130 % productivity! Nice one Guys and I thought the time off was to forget about flying and relax and recover.

This all sounds very familiar …remember the Flight Time Limitation FCI Factoring allowing 120 or more hours in 28 days to allow for the huge expansion and training with the arrival of the Airbus A340. The assurance things would settle down, fly less yearly hours and we would get more pilots and things would change……………..

Now we have a shortage of pilots even to crew simulators!
Annual Leave unable to be taken in full
Company Really pleased that they could give out 30 Days instead of 42
Pilot Hours problem with the 12 month 900 limitation

Credibility has been given another beating !