Big piston displays - what do you want?

[FB11]

We're in the middle of freshening up the 2007 display for the Sea Fury which, (once the starter is fixed,) will also be back with it's colleague the Sea Hawk.

I have some captive time on my hands out of the country and would like to know from the receiving end of a display what you want to see more or less of in the 2007 season. What is it about any big piston, but specifically the Sea Fury if applicable, that you'd like to see?

For example:

More/less high speed passes?
More/less low speed work?
More/less topside/belly passes?
More/less slow rolling manoeuvres?
More/less vertical manoeuvres?
More/Less combination (or linked) manoeuvres?
More/less manoeuvres towards/away from the crowd?
More (can't be less!) formation work with the Sea Hawk?
More/less formation work with other big pistons?

Is it just the fact that she turns up that you like most?

Go on, throw in your two-penneth worth. No point doing a display without the fee-payers enjoying it.

[chiglet]

FB11
Just fly it ANY way you want...as long as it flies :D :D
watp,iktch

[BEagle]

FB11 - the RNHF operates a fleet of priceless, historic aircraft which deserve to be displayed with the grace and elegance they deserve. Shall we say rather more 'Shuttleworth' than 'Duxford'....

More/less slow rolling manoeuvres? The odd fast-ish nose high barrel roll - but at height! And remember the P-38 accident (RIP).

More/less vertical manoeuvres? Less - too much stress on elderly airframes and engines. And remember the Firefly and King Cobra accidents (RIP).

More/less formation work with other big pistons. More - but not those mixed type rather pointless Duxford Balbo things. In contrast, the 4-ship at Shuttleworth was absolutely epic - all 'RN' and very gracefully flown.

A synchronised Sea Hawk and Sea Fury display would be excellent!

[saman]

FB11, thanks for asking!
The Centaurus, at high speed, has a sound that is quite beautifully unique and that I, for one, just love to hear. So High Speed passes are for me - and please ask the comentator, bouncy castle and fairground noises to stop while you fly by! If HS passes can be combined with 'top-side' views that is just great. I love to watch aerobatics but methinks that we must not indulge in the high stress area - but please keep in some gentle rolling and verticals.
Manoevres towards the crowd are always good both from the visual and aural points of view - if one can have an aural viewpoint!
But above all, please don't bend yourself - or it !
Saman
Edited 'cos i can't spell!

[Flying Lawyer]

Totally agree about the high speed passes - the sound is a joy to hear.

BEagle
Perhaps a slight conflict between what aviation specialists do not want to see and what tens of thousands of 'fee-payers' do?
I can guess your response to that. :)

Watching vintage aircraft at Shuttleworth being displayed gently on a sunny afternoon or balmy summer's evening is a unique pleasure, but that's not how airshow crowds like to see fighters being flown. Nor do I, but I know we don't agree about the style of the pilot who was regarded not only by the crowds but by other display pilots as the Master. ;)



BTW, there were particular circumstances relating to the Firefly accident which I'm sure will not be repeated.

[Mac the Knife]

Love the sound!

Formation is nice. Aggressive aeros not a good idea

Nothing like a 4-point roll as she streaks in front of you :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Just TAKE CARE of the thing.... there have been a few too many cases of beautiful old aeroplanes being busted.

[mustafagander]

I would prefer a relatively slow speed low g display so that the crowd gets to enjoy the mechanical music for as long as possible. There are plenty of specialist, easily replaceable full on aerobatic aircraft if that's what you want, but there is an extremely limited supply of old piston aircraft so be conservative please so others can enjoy them in the future.

[effortless]

Low and slow then low and fast please, just keep flying past me and I'll be happy.

[treadigraph]

I might be flying in the face of some of the other opinions here slightly, but please bear with me...

One of the best Sea Fury displays I ever saw was Brian Sanders in the R3350 powered Argonaut (sibling of the monster R4360 powered Dreadnought) at Chino. The display ended with a shallow dive in from around 8000ft if I recall and an absolutely sizzling low pass at a speed which I suspect surpassed the fastest laps Argonaut has ever achieved at Reno. The crowd line at Chino is far closer to the action than that at Reno, so the sound of the engine and airflow, and the sight, fleeting though they were are ingrained on my memory.

Now I don't know what your operating limits are and I know the Centaurus is not considered quite as robust or easy to find spares for as the R3350, but I think a nice high speed entrance is a must to show people what the ultimate British piston fighter can do. Top-side passes along the length of the crowd line are required for the photographers and I don't mind gentle aerobatics, though having witnessed two of the accidents BEagle mentions above I do feel a bit uneasy whenever I see an aircraft appearing to make high-ish G pullouts, or getting very slow over the top of vertical manoeuvers...

Main thing is stay safe; and you are excused any high speed entrance at venues where large flocks of seabirds might get in on the act!

Cheers

Treadders

[forget]

HD and effortless, and just about everybody else, have it exactly right! :ok:
There's nothing worse than watching an old lady being abused.

[BEagle]

I'd support the reasonably high-speed arrival! Particularly of the Sea Fury.

FL, the late 'Master' displayed high performance fighters brilliantly. But such aircraft and, more particularly, pilots are becoming very rare indeed; stress levels need to be kept low on both engine and airframe.

The worst high-speed pass I ever saw was perfromed by an F-111 on the penultimate day of the last ever Alconbury air show. It came rotting in from the North Sea at the speed of heat with the wings fully back, then pulled hard to the right - and nearly bought the farm in terminal wing rock.

The next day he came in much as before, but with rather less wing sweep for the turn!

Did you see the RN 4-ship at Shuttleworth, FL? It was really good - Sea Hurricane, Seafire, Sea Fury and Sea Hawk in box 4.

[fradu]

HD and effortless, and just about everybody else, have it exactly right! :ok:
I think you have it right already 'FB11' :)
I have only ever seen two of your displays, the first was at Sandown and I was blown away by it. You opened with a topside pass if I remember rightly, which for the photographers is a delight!
High-speed passes also sound great, but as always safety should be paramount especially with that particular Centaurus.

Back at Yeovilton Air Day 1986 (I was four!!!) the RNHF displayed the Swordfish solo, and as it finished its slot the ‘Fly, ‘Fury and Sea Hawk began running in together.
The video footage I acquired does make a good sight and sound.
Sadly the Fly and its crew are no longer with us, but the Seafire and/or Skyraider I’m sure would also make a pleasant noise.

A pairs fly-by with the Sea Hawk is always a good way to begin a display as well, with both machines then displaying solo.

[forget]

Flying Lawyer - Watching vintage aircraft at Shuttleworth being displayed gently on a sunny afternoon or balmy summer's evening is a unique pleasure, but that's not how airshow crowds like to see fighters being flown.

I’m not sure I agree; over the years I’ve been amazed at the level of aviation technical knowledge of airshows’ Joe Public. I’d guess there’d be relatively few at a ‘vintage’ display who wouldn’t feel uncomfortable when an old aircraft is being asked to do things it was designed to do – but not now, in it’s dotage.

[Southern Cross]

High speed low level, pull to the vertical and show us a few vertical rolls please...! You can keep people guessing at just how much height you gain though the manouevre.

[FB11]

Firstly, thank you all for engaging so fully. Your comments in the main mirror the general thoughts I have when I get the briefest of moments at an airshow to watch other displays. I'm sure you'll all be able to pick out your bit at the shows.

Secondly, your general feelings about safety and aircraft preservation are understandable and I'd like to reassure you that:

1. RNHF aircrew are here for the aircraft and not the other way around.
2. We have learned the hardest of lessons when we lost 2 people and the aircraft at Duxford. That sequence of events will not be allowed to happen again.
3. Following on from that, we are very lucky to be flying such an outrageously capable piston. Even though we operate the engine during display at a conservative preservation power setting, it's ample to show the real dynamics/power/sound/sensation of the ultimate(?) piston engined multi-role aircraft. Most importantly, there is a significant reserve of power available to help with those rare, unforeseen occasions when the left hand lever needs to be pushed carefully forward to help avoid an awkward scenario.
4. In spite of what has so sadly befallen others, the genesis of the Sea Fury and indeed any RNHF aircraft display is one that has us firmly in the middle of the flight envelope and the pilot's capabilities, with the lowest common denominator being the baseline.

To pick up on a few specifics:

Beagle - agree with your formation comments entirely. Have a look at the Seafire/Corsair/Fury formation picture on http://www.royalnavyhistoricflight.org.uk/home.htm and scroll down the page.
Saman/Flying Lawyer - I'm sure the new season display arrival won't disappoint.
Beagle/Flying Lawyer - How about we do a Shuttleford display? Or a Duxforth? Hopefully best of both, none of the stress or straight and level.
Forget - I promise not to abuse my old lady.
All of you - Centaurus noise. I've got it.

[fradu]

..and I'm sure all of us are grateful to all at RNHF for the displays, and wish you the very best for 2007 :D
There's a superb short video clip of VR930 and WV908 on youtube, from the official Yeovilton Air Day 2006 DVD here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK1E5u6HatA).

There's also a clip of the Firefly's first display (in 2003) listed in the 'related' menu.

[barit1]

As a pilot, albeit a low-timer compared to most here, I am at least as impressed by the slow-to-mid speed SMOOTH aeros of the likes of Bob Hoover. It's precision that impresses me, not scary antics. The things he could do while maintaining mild positive G are SO satisfying to watch.
I once watched a guy recover from a spin inside a ditch, below the runway elevation, and while it gave me a lot of respect for the airplane (which had every right to snaproll at that high AOA), I immediately vowed to avoid any airshow flown by that idiot. He was later killed when a stabilizer brace was found cracked during inspection; he decided it was unnecessary so he removed it. :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

FB11 - Shuttleford it is then!
I concur with barit 1's comments regarding Bob Hoover and precision displays. Far more interesting than the grunt-shove-flick displays of Extra drivers.

By the way, the RNHF website is one of the most interesting and informative aviation websites around. Many thanks to all your team!

I can just recall seeing the odd Fleet Requirements Sea Fury flights around Yeovilton in the very early 1960s. My late father's business partner (an old Swordfish/Albacore pilot) was ecstatic when he heard the Centaurus whistle!

A pity there isn't a Sea Venom around to add to your flight - I used to spend many hours watching them at Merryfield when Yeovilton was being extended for the 'Vixen.


Or is there? Could the NEAM's FAW22 ever be made airworthy again?

[matspart3]

...and should you need to exercise the privileges of your DA en route, Gloucester is always happy to oblige...missed last year's 'closer look'

[Hot Charlie]

I'd support the reasonably high-speed arrival! Particularly of the Sea Fury.

Right to left at OW please, "appearing" from behind the trees...

I seem to remember being quite impressed by Paul Stone's impromptu display at OW last year. That was nice.:)

[ChrisVJ]

I too went to a Yeovilton display when I was four, Spitfires and Hurricanes etc, must have been 1948! I had a particular interest in the Hurricane. Cloud base was three or four thousand feet. Hurricane did a fast approach, several turns and rolls, a dirty pass with the canopy open and the pilot waving to the crown and then a last low pass wth a half loop into the cloud and just disappeared.

Thank you Michael Graves for that and for my love of flying ever since.

[Plumb Bob]

On the subject of formations, I would like to point out that ‘dissimilar’ combinations sometimes really drown the sound of the less noisy machine(s). Let the violin also be heard without the accompanying instruments.
I once witnessed the Dutch military Beaver + Auster pair fly up and down the field rather fruitlessly: I never heard the proper Auster music.

Otherwise :ok:

[Man-on-the-fence]

FB11

Talk to Stoney about what he did on his last ever Sea Fury display at Old Warden (the one with the crosswind, he flew in from Duxford).

Do what he did! The hairs are standing up on the back of my neck just thinking about it :D

[skiddyiom]

Low n slow for pictures, with the Sea Hawk and solo, then a some fast fly-by's so we can appreciate the awesome sound of that big radial engine!! :E

And if you could see your way right to flying via the Isle of Man at some time, that would be most appreciated!! :D

skiddy

[Akubra]

Hi
Saw A Fury display that included a mock strafe run from 6000. It was A very steep dive and the vapor off the wings on pull out equaled any jet fighter display I have seen.
Guess this is not a good thing to do to the airframe but it sure was impressive.
Most importantly in any display to me, Is a break in commentary and/or music to hear the machines in all their glory.

[wileydog3]

I was in Colorado a few years ago and there was a Sea Fury beating up the pattern. What was MOST impressive was the way he did his high speed passes. He would come out of a descending turn over the runway at a point near where we were standing. Just before leveling off, he would POWER UP... it was one thing to hear him in the descent but then came the sound of MORE power. It was like a weight lifter flexing. His timing was excellent and the sound change added immensely to the display.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Fly it the way it should be flown, within limits of both airframe and pilot, but just dont bend it!

[Raven30]

The sound of the Centaurus is what makes the display, so a high speed pass always works. Big smooth basic aero manoeuvres are what I enjoy seeing. As has been said previously, the Extras et al provide the high energy 3D style of display, and the likes of the Sea Fury provide the grace.

I spent many summers back in my youth watching your predecessors doing their pre season work up overhead my home at Westonzoyland. Don't know whether you still use it for practices, but if you do, I know my old mum will be grateful, beacause she too is a big fan!!

Keep up the superb work

Raven

[airborne_artist]

What is it about any big piston, but specifically the Sea Fury if applicable, that you'd like to see?

Much as I love to see it, I want to hear it even more. Just make sure it's loud :cool:

[Centaurus]

The Centaurus, at high speed, has a sound that is quite beautifully unique and that I, for one, just love to hear

Oh my heart goes all a'flutter - I didn't know you cared!:8

[hairyclameater]

Concur with what has been siad, though as a photographer some nice, close, sweeping not too fast top side banks around the crowd are an absolute must!! Does the hook work? I think a carrier borne type with everything dangling in a slow, low, dirty flypast looks the bizzz!!

Re formating, I've always thought a joint BBMF/FAAHF formation would look and sound rather scrummy! Though these days without the Firefly, and the Sea Hawk being too fast and Swordfish being too slow, it aint gonna happen.
Fingers crossed if the Sea Vixen is on the circuit this year in proper colours it will be a must to formate on that with the Sea Hawk and poss even the Sea Fire....;)

Just carry on the good work, always a joy to see!:D