Big piston displays - what do you want?
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Big piston displays - what do you want?
We're in the middle of freshening up the 2007 display for the Sea Fury which, (once the starter is fixed,) will also be back with it's colleague the Sea Hawk.
I have some captive time on my hands out of the country and would like to know from the receiving end of a display what you want to see more or less of in the 2007 season. What is it about any big piston, but specifically the Sea Fury if applicable, that you'd like to see?
For example:
More/less high speed passes?
More/less low speed work?
More/less topside/belly passes?
More/less slow rolling manoeuvres?
More/less vertical manoeuvres?
More/Less combination (or linked) manoeuvres?
More/less manoeuvres towards/away from the crowd?
More (can't be less!) formation work with the Sea Hawk?
More/less formation work with other big pistons?
Is it just the fact that she turns up that you like most?
Go on, throw in your two-penneth worth. No point doing a display without the fee-payers enjoying it.
I have some captive time on my hands out of the country and would like to know from the receiving end of a display what you want to see more or less of in the 2007 season. What is it about any big piston, but specifically the Sea Fury if applicable, that you'd like to see?
For example:
More/less high speed passes?
More/less low speed work?
More/less topside/belly passes?
More/less slow rolling manoeuvres?
More/less vertical manoeuvres?
More/Less combination (or linked) manoeuvres?
More/less manoeuvres towards/away from the crowd?
More (can't be less!) formation work with the Sea Hawk?
More/less formation work with other big pistons?
Is it just the fact that she turns up that you like most?
Go on, throw in your two-penneth worth. No point doing a display without the fee-payers enjoying it.
FB11 - the RNHF operates a fleet of priceless, historic aircraft which deserve to be displayed with the grace and elegance they deserve. Shall we say rather more 'Shuttleworth' than 'Duxford'....
More/less slow rolling manoeuvres? The odd fast-ish nose high barrel roll - but at height! And remember the P-38 accident (RIP).
More/less vertical manoeuvres? Less - too much stress on elderly airframes and engines. And remember the Firefly and King Cobra accidents (RIP).
More/less formation work with other big pistons. More - but not those mixed type rather pointless Duxford Balbo things. In contrast, the 4-ship at Shuttleworth was absolutely epic - all 'RN' and very gracefully flown.
A synchronised Sea Hawk and Sea Fury display would be excellent!
More/less slow rolling manoeuvres? The odd fast-ish nose high barrel roll - but at height! And remember the P-38 accident (RIP).
More/less vertical manoeuvres? Less - too much stress on elderly airframes and engines. And remember the Firefly and King Cobra accidents (RIP).
More/less formation work with other big pistons. More - but not those mixed type rather pointless Duxford Balbo things. In contrast, the 4-ship at Shuttleworth was absolutely epic - all 'RN' and very gracefully flown.
A synchronised Sea Hawk and Sea Fury display would be excellent!
Last edited by BEagle; 7th Jan 2007 at 09:05.
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FB11, thanks for asking!
The Centaurus, at high speed, has a sound that is quite beautifully unique and that I, for one, just love to hear. So High Speed passes are for me - and please ask the comentator, bouncy castle and fairground noises to stop while you fly by! If HS passes can be combined with 'top-side' views that is just great. I love to watch aerobatics but methinks that we must not indulge in the high stress area - but please keep in some gentle rolling and verticals.
Manoevres towards the crowd are always good both from the visual and aural points of view - if one can have an aural viewpoint!
But above all, please don't bend yourself - or it !
Saman
Edited 'cos i can't spell!
The Centaurus, at high speed, has a sound that is quite beautifully unique and that I, for one, just love to hear. So High Speed passes are for me - and please ask the comentator, bouncy castle and fairground noises to stop while you fly by! If HS passes can be combined with 'top-side' views that is just great. I love to watch aerobatics but methinks that we must not indulge in the high stress area - but please keep in some gentle rolling and verticals.
Manoevres towards the crowd are always good both from the visual and aural points of view - if one can have an aural viewpoint!
But above all, please don't bend yourself - or it !
Saman
Edited 'cos i can't spell!
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Totally agree about the high speed passes - the sound is a joy to hear.
BEagle
Perhaps a slight conflict between what aviation specialists do not want to see and what tens of thousands of 'fee-payers' do?
I can guess your response to that.
Watching vintage aircraft at Shuttleworth being displayed gently on a sunny afternoon or balmy summer's evening is a unique pleasure, but that's not how airshow crowds like to see fighters being flown. Nor do I, but I know we don't agree about the style of the pilot who was regarded not only by the crowds but by other display pilots as the Master.
BTW, there were particular circumstances relating to the Firefly accident which I'm sure will not be repeated.
BEagle
Perhaps a slight conflict between what aviation specialists do not want to see and what tens of thousands of 'fee-payers' do?
I can guess your response to that.
Watching vintage aircraft at Shuttleworth being displayed gently on a sunny afternoon or balmy summer's evening is a unique pleasure, but that's not how airshow crowds like to see fighters being flown. Nor do I, but I know we don't agree about the style of the pilot who was regarded not only by the crowds but by other display pilots as the Master.
BTW, there were particular circumstances relating to the Firefly accident which I'm sure will not be repeated.
I would prefer a relatively slow speed low g display so that the crowd gets to enjoy the mechanical music for as long as possible. There are plenty of specialist, easily replaceable full on aerobatic aircraft if that's what you want, but there is an extremely limited supply of old piston aircraft so be conservative please so others can enjoy them in the future.
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I might be flying in the face of some of the other opinions here slightly, but please bear with me...
One of the best Sea Fury displays I ever saw was Brian Sanders in the R3350 powered Argonaut (sibling of the monster R4360 powered Dreadnought) at Chino. The display ended with a shallow dive in from around 8000ft if I recall and an absolutely sizzling low pass at a speed which I suspect surpassed the fastest laps Argonaut has ever achieved at Reno. The crowd line at Chino is far closer to the action than that at Reno, so the sound of the engine and airflow, and the sight, fleeting though they were are ingrained on my memory.
Now I don't know what your operating limits are and I know the Centaurus is not considered quite as robust or easy to find spares for as the R3350, but I think a nice high speed entrance is a must to show people what the ultimate British piston fighter can do. Top-side passes along the length of the crowd line are required for the photographers and I don't mind gentle aerobatics, though having witnessed two of the accidents BEagle mentions above I do feel a bit uneasy whenever I see an aircraft appearing to make high-ish G pullouts, or getting very slow over the top of vertical manoeuvers...
Main thing is stay safe; and you are excused any high speed entrance at venues where large flocks of seabirds might get in on the act!
Cheers
Treadders
One of the best Sea Fury displays I ever saw was Brian Sanders in the R3350 powered Argonaut (sibling of the monster R4360 powered Dreadnought) at Chino. The display ended with a shallow dive in from around 8000ft if I recall and an absolutely sizzling low pass at a speed which I suspect surpassed the fastest laps Argonaut has ever achieved at Reno. The crowd line at Chino is far closer to the action than that at Reno, so the sound of the engine and airflow, and the sight, fleeting though they were are ingrained on my memory.
Now I don't know what your operating limits are and I know the Centaurus is not considered quite as robust or easy to find spares for as the R3350, but I think a nice high speed entrance is a must to show people what the ultimate British piston fighter can do. Top-side passes along the length of the crowd line are required for the photographers and I don't mind gentle aerobatics, though having witnessed two of the accidents BEagle mentions above I do feel a bit uneasy whenever I see an aircraft appearing to make high-ish G pullouts, or getting very slow over the top of vertical manoeuvers...
Main thing is stay safe; and you are excused any high speed entrance at venues where large flocks of seabirds might get in on the act!
Cheers
Treadders
Last edited by treadigraph; 7th Jan 2007 at 10:25. Reason: Fingers like hams on the keyboard...
I'd support the reasonably high-speed arrival! Particularly of the Sea Fury.
FL, the late 'Master' displayed high performance fighters brilliantly. But such aircraft and, more particularly, pilots are becoming very rare indeed; stress levels need to be kept low on both engine and airframe.
The worst high-speed pass I ever saw was perfromed by an F-111 on the penultimate day of the last ever Alconbury air show. It came rotting in from the North Sea at the speed of heat with the wings fully back, then pulled hard to the right - and nearly bought the farm in terminal wing rock.
The next day he came in much as before, but with rather less wing sweep for the turn!
Did you see the RN 4-ship at Shuttleworth, FL? It was really good - Sea Hurricane, Seafire, Sea Fury and Sea Hawk in box 4.
FL, the late 'Master' displayed high performance fighters brilliantly. But such aircraft and, more particularly, pilots are becoming very rare indeed; stress levels need to be kept low on both engine and airframe.
The worst high-speed pass I ever saw was perfromed by an F-111 on the penultimate day of the last ever Alconbury air show. It came rotting in from the North Sea at the speed of heat with the wings fully back, then pulled hard to the right - and nearly bought the farm in terminal wing rock.
The next day he came in much as before, but with rather less wing sweep for the turn!
Did you see the RN 4-ship at Shuttleworth, FL? It was really good - Sea Hurricane, Seafire, Sea Fury and Sea Hawk in box 4.
I have only ever seen two of your displays, the first was at Sandown and I was blown away by it. You opened with a topside pass if I remember rightly, which for the photographers is a delight!
High-speed passes also sound great, but as always safety should be paramount especially with that particular Centaurus.
Back at Yeovilton Air Day 1986 (I was four!!!) the RNHF displayed the Swordfish solo, and as it finished its slot the ‘Fly, ‘Fury and Sea Hawk began running in together.
The video footage I acquired does make a good sight and sound.
Sadly the Fly and its crew are no longer with us, but the Seafire and/or Skyraider I’m sure would also make a pleasant noise.
A pairs fly-by with the Sea Hawk is always a good way to begin a display as well, with both machines then displaying solo.
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Flying Lawyer -
I’m not sure I agree; over the years I’ve been amazed at the level of aviation technical knowledge of airshows’ Joe Public. I’d guess there’d be relatively few at a ‘vintage’ display who wouldn’t feel uncomfortable when an old aircraft is being asked to do things it was designed to do – but not now, in it’s dotage.
Watching vintage aircraft at Shuttleworth being displayed gently on a sunny afternoon or balmy summer's evening is a unique pleasure, but that's not how airshow crowds like to see fighters being flown.
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High speed low level, pull to the vertical and show us a few vertical rolls please...! You can keep people guessing at just how much height you gain though the manouevre.
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Firstly, thank you all for engaging so fully. Your comments in the main mirror the general thoughts I have when I get the briefest of moments at an airshow to watch other displays. I'm sure you'll all be able to pick out your bit at the shows.
Secondly, your general feelings about safety and aircraft preservation are understandable and I'd like to reassure you that:
1. RNHF aircrew are here for the aircraft and not the other way around.
2. We have learned the hardest of lessons when we lost 2 people and the aircraft at Duxford. That sequence of events will not be allowed to happen again.
3. Following on from that, we are very lucky to be flying such an outrageously capable piston. Even though we operate the engine during display at a conservative preservation power setting, it's ample to show the real dynamics/power/sound/sensation of the ultimate(?) piston engined multi-role aircraft. Most importantly, there is a significant reserve of power available to help with those rare, unforeseen occasions when the left hand lever needs to be pushed carefully forward to help avoid an awkward scenario.
4. In spite of what has so sadly befallen others, the genesis of the Sea Fury and indeed any RNHF aircraft display is one that has us firmly in the middle of the flight envelope and the pilot's capabilities, with the lowest common denominator being the baseline.
To pick up on a few specifics:
Beagle - agree with your formation comments entirely. Have a look at the Seafire/Corsair/Fury formation picture on http://www.royalnavyhistoricflight.org.uk/home.htm and scroll down the page.
Saman/Flying Lawyer - I'm sure the new season display arrival won't disappoint.
Beagle/Flying Lawyer - How about we do a Shuttleford display? Or a Duxforth? Hopefully best of both, none of the stress or straight and level.
Forget - I promise not to abuse my old lady.
All of you - Centaurus noise. I've got it.
Secondly, your general feelings about safety and aircraft preservation are understandable and I'd like to reassure you that:
1. RNHF aircrew are here for the aircraft and not the other way around.
2. We have learned the hardest of lessons when we lost 2 people and the aircraft at Duxford. That sequence of events will not be allowed to happen again.
3. Following on from that, we are very lucky to be flying such an outrageously capable piston. Even though we operate the engine during display at a conservative preservation power setting, it's ample to show the real dynamics/power/sound/sensation of the ultimate(?) piston engined multi-role aircraft. Most importantly, there is a significant reserve of power available to help with those rare, unforeseen occasions when the left hand lever needs to be pushed carefully forward to help avoid an awkward scenario.
4. In spite of what has so sadly befallen others, the genesis of the Sea Fury and indeed any RNHF aircraft display is one that has us firmly in the middle of the flight envelope and the pilot's capabilities, with the lowest common denominator being the baseline.
To pick up on a few specifics:
Beagle - agree with your formation comments entirely. Have a look at the Seafire/Corsair/Fury formation picture on http://www.royalnavyhistoricflight.org.uk/home.htm and scroll down the page.
Saman/Flying Lawyer - I'm sure the new season display arrival won't disappoint.
Beagle/Flying Lawyer - How about we do a Shuttleford display? Or a Duxforth? Hopefully best of both, none of the stress or straight and level.
Forget - I promise not to abuse my old lady.
All of you - Centaurus noise. I've got it.
..and I'm sure all of us are grateful to all at RNHF for the displays, and wish you the very best for 2007 
There's a superb short video clip of VR930 and WV908 on youtube, from the official Yeovilton Air Day 2006 DVD here.
There's also a clip of the Firefly's first display (in 2003) listed in the 'related' menu.
There's a superb short video clip of VR930 and WV908 on youtube, from the official Yeovilton Air Day 2006 DVD here.
There's also a clip of the Firefly's first display (in 2003) listed in the 'related' menu.
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As a pilot, albeit a low-timer compared to most here, I am at least as impressed by the slow-to-mid speed SMOOTH aeros of the likes of Bob Hoover. It's precision that impresses me, not scary antics. The things he could do while maintaining mild positive G are SO satisfying to watch.
I once watched a guy recover from a spin inside a ditch, below the runway elevation, and while it gave me a lot of respect for the airplane (which had every right to snaproll at that high AOA), I immediately vowed to avoid any airshow flown by that idiot. He was later killed when a stabilizer brace was found cracked during inspection; he decided it was unnecessary so he removed it.
I once watched a guy recover from a spin inside a ditch, below the runway elevation, and while it gave me a lot of respect for the airplane (which had every right to snaproll at that high AOA), I immediately vowed to avoid any airshow flown by that idiot. He was later killed when a stabilizer brace was found cracked during inspection; he decided it was unnecessary so he removed it.
FB11 - Shuttleford it is then!
I concur with barit 1's comments regarding Bob Hoover and precision displays. Far more interesting than the grunt-shove-flick displays of Extra drivers.
By the way, the RNHF website is one of the most interesting and informative aviation websites around. Many thanks to all your team!
I can just recall seeing the odd Fleet Requirements Sea Fury flights around Yeovilton in the very early 1960s. My late father's business partner (an old Swordfish/Albacore pilot) was ecstatic when he heard the Centaurus whistle!
A pity there isn't a Sea Venom around to add to your flight - I used to spend many hours watching them at Merryfield when Yeovilton was being extended for the 'Vixen.
Or is there? Could the NEAM's FAW22 ever be made airworthy again?
I concur with barit 1's comments regarding Bob Hoover and precision displays. Far more interesting than the grunt-shove-flick displays of Extra drivers.
By the way, the RNHF website is one of the most interesting and informative aviation websites around. Many thanks to all your team!
I can just recall seeing the odd Fleet Requirements Sea Fury flights around Yeovilton in the very early 1960s. My late father's business partner (an old Swordfish/Albacore pilot) was ecstatic when he heard the Centaurus whistle!
A pity there isn't a Sea Venom around to add to your flight - I used to spend many hours watching them at Merryfield when Yeovilton was being extended for the 'Vixen.
Or is there? Could the NEAM's FAW22 ever be made airworthy again?
