Any Cessna 210 in YSBK

[DeltaSix]

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a Cessna 210 in Bankstown that I can hire for a couple of days ?. Tried ringing around but no luck. So, I was wondering if anyone knows who might have one.


Ta

d6

[computer says no]

This guy has one. Might be worth a shot. Its at wedderburn, not quite bk but might be your only chance in the area (as taken from afap site)

Training available in both C210 and C207.Call Bernie 0425380967 or email [email protected] ([email protected])

[DeltaSix]

This guy has one. Might be worth a shot. Its at wedderburn, not quite bk but might be your only chance in the area (as taken from afap site)

Training available in both C210 and C207.Call Bernie 0425380967 or email [email protected] ([email protected])

Yeah I know, he owns the C210. He said to one guy hiring it that wherever the 210 goes he goes. I really don't want to take him where I'll take my family.

[computer says no]

Ahh I see, so that's what's known as the bernie hire. This method of aeroplane utilisation is also known in some circles as a 'charter', you, in this case being the hire or reward

[ContactMeNow]

Isnt that C210 at wedderburn a C210A, 4 place IO-470???

[DeltaSix]

Now that you've said it, I thought he was a bit strange. Apparently, he is a bit reluctant for someone to do circuits on the thing.
hmmmm...........

[DeltaSix]

Isnt that C210 at wedderburn a C210A, 4 place IO-470???
Yes, I just found out it is a C210A. With wing struts.


Does anyone know where the C206 or 207 that John Lyons use to own at Chieftain Aviation ? It's been awhile. Last time I've heard he was in AFTS at tower road but now they're all gone after Ron's accident.

[TheWrongStuff]

I too would be interested if anyone has any news of a 210 in BK.

I got an email from John Lyons - re Chieftain's (where the 210 was) interesting read... (text...)

trust you are all enjoying the break and that you have had a great Christmas.
Hopefully the New Year will be kind to us all and the bush fires go out (just where are those water bombing airplanes & helicopters?).

Anyway, the reason for this e-mail ……… news about ‘Chieftain’ …..

For a number of reasons, financial ones, I have decided to discontinue operating Chieftain as a flying school.
Simply put, under present arrangements, it doesn’t make economic sense.
The cost of acquiring my own AOC from CASA was just going to be excessive and not recoverable without significant increases in our rates, which would make us uncompetitive / unaffordable.

It’s a great disappointment, but I simply don’t have pockets that deep, even if CASA seems to think I should.

However, ‘Chieftain’ will continue.

We will provide private hire and conversion training and anything else for which we don’t require an AOC, including theory training.
At this stage we will only have the ‘172’ available, but hopefully others in the future.
For those interested, if you want to fly something bigger and faster and hold the relevant endorsement we can do the conversion training for you.
There are a number of other privately available airplanes at Bankstown.
Also, I may have some other news soon, about ‘formal’ flying training. Call if you think we can help.

Same phone number, which is monitored (diverts to my mobile).

As for other activities, such a movie nights, BBQ’s etc ….. only time will tell, but I’d like to keep something like that going, perhaps a Friday afternoon/evening beer or two.


Anyway, all the best to everyone. Thanks for your support over the years ……. John Lyon, Peter Arnold & Forrest Park

[Victa Bravo]

Not only are there no 210's at YSBK there isn't any six seat/single engine for hire at YSBK!

Bankstown Airport Limited and CASA say the industry is in "better shape" than ever.

I say "bull dust"

The genaeral aviation airport for the biggest city in Australia doesn't have 1 friggin "big" single for hire!!! Bollocks things are in good shape? :* :*

Those of you who think that this problem will right itself in time are living with your head in the sand!

Those of you who think that this problem is isolated to YSBK are also living with ya heads in the dirt!

The goverment want this industry dead cause it doesn't make them enough money and all it does is provide bad press when a lightie goes down!

RIP GA in AUS


You know it makes sense.
VB

[Wheeler]

You cannot blame CASA for the lack of larger complex singles being available. If you have any idea of the real costs of maintenance and the financial risks on 210's and other larger retractables, you will understand why no-one in their right mind will hire them out for $250 an hour to 'off the street' punters. These aircrraft can break (or crash) too easily! I used to have aircraft like that on line, but got sick of them coming back absolutely filthy after 'a couple of days hire' needing major rectification, - or being dumped in the middle of nowhere with (say) the the plugs fowled because some genius hirer could not work out how to avoid it.

As for Bernie being cautious, he should be - and there really is no need to be abusive about a guy who has the sense to realise there is major financial risk in this activity. As for the aircraft, it is a 210A and one of the most nicely presented A models you will find anywhere. What do you expect from an almost 50 year old aircraft? (BTW, I thought defamation was not allowed on Pprune!!!!)

If the market would pay a reasonable rate, you would find plenty of aircraft available for hire but the economic situation you have at the moment is that you might find an owner desperate for a bit of cost recovery who will subsidise the real cost to the customer - until he or she realises what that is really costing them. Your problem is that there are few 'mug' owners at BK these days. Your best bet is to strike up long term relationship with an owner, with mutual respect and trust on both sides. If you are 'known', you might find some owners a little less cautious but the days of turning up off the street, doing a couple of circuits and then chuffing off into the deep blue yonder are long gone on aircraft like that.

[Ratshit]

You are right VB.

When I arrived in Qld's second largest city (outside the SE corner) 20 years ago, I could PVT hire:

PA28 x 2
PA32 x 1
PA30 x 1 (IFR)
M20 x 1 (IFR)
C152 x 1
C172 x 2
C172RG x 1 (IFR)
C182 x 1
C182RG x 1 (IFR)
C210 x 1 (IFR)
C310 x 2 (IFR)
C402 x 1 (IFR)
Baron x 3 (IFR)

today (if I am lucky)

C152 x 1
C172 x 1
C172RG x 1
C210 x 1 (after $1000 check ride and charter rate per hr)

None are IFR

Fortunately I now have the Forked-tailed Dr Killer (comfortably IFR)!

R:cool:

[Victa Bravo]

Certainly cash strapped times! But last year I forked out for an ASIC $160 and my medical $130 so I'm down $300. That would be an hour in a 210.

CASA don't set the cost hiring a 210 true. But when the punters are busy forking out hard-earns for expensive and sometimes useless "peripherals" then Joe Bloggs quickly finds himself short in the money department.

If CASA wants someone to regulate in the future then it would be well worth their while in aiding it's "customers" then bending them over giving it to them!

VB

[bentleg]

We are getting off topic.

There is at least one C210 at Camden but I think it is privately owned. There are sixes available for hire at Camden but not 210's to my knowledge.

And before someone else says it Camden is being squeezed too, but that's not the topic of this thread.

[Wheeler]

Sixes at Camden? Where? Who?

There is a really nice low time 210M, owned by a small syndicate, who are very proud of it. Cannot see you getting your hands on that one.

As I say, if it was worth their while, plenty of owners wouldn't mind the odd bit of cross-hiring, but who will be first to put up their hand to pay a real commercial rate? ASIC fees, CASA medical processing fee etc etc are absolute peanuts compared to the maintenance, insurance, fuel, engine, prop etc on one of those things.....

If you really want to have a go at someone, maybe lookat Cessna and the maintenance 'industry'. who are the winners as these old 'buckets of shyte' get even older. Take $500 for a mixture cable, $2500 for mag overhaul, $800 for a fuel pump, $600 for a vac pump, $16.000+ for a repaint, $50,000 for an engine. All that stuff has to be regularly replaced or overhauled. Insurance about $8000.depending on the value and what it is used for (- and of course 210's do not have a good cliams record in pirvate hire.) Say $4000 per year for hangarage at BK, fuel 50-60 litres per hour at $1.40? Even one of those dinky little tin hubcaps on a 210 is $125. Oh, and you want a nice IFR Garmin 530 setup and 3 axis autopilot too? ($60K?). Does anyone seriously believe with those kind of costs, that putting a nice 210 on line at around $300 per hour (which would be about $240 by the time GST and the operators commission is taken into account) is viable?

[bentleg]

Sixes at Camden? Where? Who?

Do you mean six seaters or six cylinders?

Have a chat with Airborne or Curtis - from recollection there is a Cherokee Dakota, a Beech Debonair and several 182's. Not six seaters though.

There ARE six seaters at SYBK - Alpha have a Saratoga and a C206 (for members) and there is a guy who advertises a Lance in AOPA magazine (Ray 9999 0584 min 300 hrs required).

[Wheeler]

Yep, some really good new 4 seat 182's around Camden, some even G1000, but I think we are looking for 6 seats here.

Aside from the issue, but what is interesting is that two operators seem to have found new $500,000 182's actually appear to be economic to offer for public hire - so maybe in GA things are not so bad!

[DeltaSix]

We are getting off topic.
There is at least one C210 at Camden but I think it is privately owned. There are sixes available for hire at Camden but not 210's to my knowledge.
And before someone else says it Camden is being squeezed too, but that's not the topic of this thread.


Hi bentleg, can you please PM me the details of the owner if they are hiring it out.

Thanks

D6

[DeltaSix]

Not only are there no 210's at YSBK there isn't any six seat/single engine for hire at YSBK!

Bankstown Airport Limited and CASA say the industry is in "better shape" than ever.

I say "bull dust"

The genaeral aviation airport for the biggest city in Australia doesn't have 1 friggin "big" single for hire!!! Bollocks things are in good shape? :* :*

Those of you who think that this problem will right itself in time are living with your head in the sand!

Those of you who think that this problem is isolated to YSBK are also living with ya heads in the dirt!

The goverment want this industry dead cause it doesn't make them enough money and all it does is provide bad press when a lightie goes down!

RIP GA in AUS


You know it makes sense.
VB


I've heard the number of duchess available for hire are dwindling too....

[Xcel]

I used to hire 210's from bk. they are all in the territory now. why leave them down there doing a few private hours when they get 80 hours+ a month up here. including john lyons old machine mdz, others - bec, kss, ltt. the list goes on.

bk isnt the stronghold of aviation. try hiring a 206 down there i know there are still 2. go see schofields, pat watson will tell you where 1 of them is cause it is a members one (mick tickner).

apart from that if it is 210 time ur chasing for up north then any 200 series is close enough.

people are scared of private hirers, if you honestly cant find these machines then you may not have been around long enough, try networking a little and you would be surprised how much you find out.

as for bernie and his 210a, it isnt half bad and the guy is a bit paranoid but so was john lyons. most owners are until you can prove that you arent a weekend warrior who is out to cause them more heart ache than the $250 / hr or part thereof you are willing to release for a 250k machine.:ugh:

[bushy]

Many of today's cpl's would have difficulty hiring a car due to insurance requirements.

[kingtoad]

Wheeler is right about why there are few (no?) big singles around for pvt or any sort of hire anymore.

I'm a C210 owner (sorry - not near Sydney). My IFR Charter category 100 hr'ly last month cost me $3750.00 inc GST plus ferrying time. There were only 2 snags found - broken exhaust bracket ($75) and a leaking static system ($400 - labour to find where the leak was).

Each time I've hired my plane to someone else (pvt or professional), it doesn't come back the same. Broken plastic trim in baggage compartment, lost fuel drain, broken window (yes - broken window).

They push their bags over the back seat into the baggage compartment (instead of using the bag comptmnt door) and scrape the wool off the sheepskin seat covers. Fly from Longreach to Rockhampton with a broken HF antenna flapping behind the plane, scratching the paint to billy-o.

I'm also scared sh1tless that the engine will get shock cooled on descent - there goes another $bigwad.

But still only want to pay less than $300 per hour.

I don't want to sound like I'm whingeing, but thems the facts - its just not worth it financially. If every pilot would treat every plane they flew like it was their own, it might be a different story.

Anyway - in the meantime if you want to hire a C210 in central Qld, pm me. (Am I nuts or what?)

[DeltaSix]

Guys,

Please hear me out. I am not trying to build my hour on the C210. I just like to fly it as I have done in the past. I am not a newbie ( check my profile ) and I am used to flying turbo charged engines as I use to fly a chieftain in my past life.

I am just looking for one that I can hire for a few days so I can take my family (and friends) around Sydney when I'm there. I am also thinking of buying one but that's down the track.

If nothing is available in BK on the Cessna 200 series then I'll settle for a Baron or a Duchess.

Thanks everyone.

D6

[DeltaSix]

Why not use a PN68? Costs the same as someone would want for a C210 and theres two or three around Sydney...


I also had that in mind Doc, thanks.

D6

[das Uber Soldat]

I've heard the number of duchess available for hire are dwindling too....

that would most likely be due to people increasing number of people not putting down those little rubber inflatable things when returning to terra firma.

[VH-BCY]

G'Day All,
Have you ever wondered why there is no longer a C210 available from YSBK? It is because most pilots who don't own an aircraft, don't know how to look after them. They are not some hire car which you can trash :ugh: As far as I know, every C210 that has been privately hired from YSBK, has come back broken. That is why I don't let my C210 out of my sight. For those knockers out there, just because you spent your rich daddy’s money on your CPL, doesn't give you the right to trash aircraft. Maybe if you earnt some respect, people might be willing to hire you something a bit faster than a Warrior.
For those inspiring CPL pilots out there, who would like to learn a bit about respect for the aircraft you fly, you are welcome to fly my 210 with me in the RHS, for those who prefer to trash their planes, don’t bother calling me. Check out my details on the AFAP website under jump pilots required. It may only be a C210A model with 4 seats and an economical IO470, but its the fastest climbing 210 around and not much slower than the later models. You still have the same engine and speed management as later models and after all, it still goes in your logbook as a C210. I offer a 10 hour block for only $2000 wet and have just got back from a trip from YPKU with 3 pilots building 10 hours command each. They all learnt what real flying is all about, travelling great distances, making their own command decisions and coming back in one piece. I’m sure if you ask around who they are, they will fill you in on what type of a guy I am.
More than 75% of pilots who fly my 210, have ended up with some sort of flying job, being skydiving or otherwise. Not a bad prospect if you are after the all important first flying job.
If you call it charter where I give up my own time to help pilots appreciate the respect for the machines they fly, experience the pleasure in going to places they have never been before for no real reason other than just because as pilots we can, then call it charter or even the BERNIE HIRE if you will.
Blue Skies
Bernie:ok:

[Zhaadum]

I know all to well about people trashing the BK C210s. In the late 90's several 210s were available from Chieftain/Illawarra. VH-BEC and VH-M?? both ex Arhnem Air Aircraft. I can't remember the second aircraft call sign.

Anyway I went to Illawarra to get a C210 check out and a few hours prior to going on the big trek NW as a VFR CPL.

I did the first check and no worries, then went to hire BEC again a few weeks later, but someone had dropped it in on landing and busted the nose gear/engine/prop. It didn't fly again for several years that I know of, forlornly sitting over on Tower Rd side of the field.

THEN I went to hire the other C210 that replaced BEC, M??. It had met a similar fate a few months after BEC!!

I had to find a 6 seat single and quick. (No twin rating at that stage)
I eventually settled for a A-36, for a flight to Nowra Naval Museum.
Six pax could take no bags, or lunch (they offered to bring lunch for all including me in an esky) and I had to carry ballast fuel to stay in CG.

In a 210, six pax, bags, esky and full fuel no probs!

Some people have no respect for an aircraft. Bernie I feel your pain.

Z.:ok:

[BOK_]

Bernie has a point here guys and gals, when you look at if from the owners point of view you can understand the reasons why they are reluctant to cross hire an aircraft to a fresh CPL with low hours and whose training has primarily been on warriors or 172's. Hard landings, reckless engine handling and numerous other events have scared a lot of 210 owners in the past which is why there ain't too many around these days for hire.

Stepping up to the 210 although not a huge challenge does require a bit more forward planning and engine management skills and simple things like pulling the power of 4-5 inches for a descent in say a Piper or Cessna aircraft no longer apply when flying a 210 or 207, everything must be gradual in order to preserve the engine and if you return the aircraft with cracked valves or damaged piston heads because you couldn't care less or were just ignorant, then its ok for you but for the owner, then there in the you know what.

And this aircraft that Bernie hires out is his living so he cannot afford to have people flying it that have no experience on that particular aircraft type. He is doing newbie pilots a service by letting you get valuable 210 hours before trekking north and this will give you the edge over a lot of others so be grateful that he is willing to hire it out to you in the first place.

I hired his plane out Jan/Feb 2006 before I went north and did not mind having Bernie next to me at all, he is a nice guy, won't rip you off and you will learn a thing or three from him in the process....it was the icing on the cake that got me my first big break and for that reason, I am grateful to the guy.

BOK

[Zhaadum]

Dr Oakenfold,

Don't get my meaning wrong, I loved flying the A36, just that it could not carry the load I required on the day. Compared to the particular C210 I had flown previously. We turned up to fly the 210, only to find out at the last minute it had been trashed! No disrespect to Bonza drivers/owners intended, as the A36 felt and handled beautifully!

Z.:ok:

Thanks Bushy, the A36 C of G rear limit was my problem, hence rearranging heavy pax fwd and not able to take any bags etc. We were at max takeoff weight and I had to arrange it so as C of G moved aft when fuel burned off we ware ALWAYS in limits until landing.

[bushy]

Dr Oak
I suggest you check the C of G position with six adults and baggage.

[Zhaadum]

Ok, try this calculator http://www.alman-tmb.org/N567EB-weight.html

Load as follows;
FRONT ROW 2 adult pax at 200lbs ea = 400lbs
MID ROW club seats 2 young adults at 152lbs ea = 354lbs,
REAR ROW 2 youths at 125lbs = 250lbs.
FUEL 40usg fuel and you will be at MTOW 3600lbs.

Front seat arm almost all the way aft (big guys have long legs).
Mid row seat arm mid range,
Back seats fixed.

THEN same pax load but landing fuel anywhere less than 20 usg the aircraft is out of rear CG.

These are not the exact actual weights we had as I can't remember but it was the same situation.

Anyway, this thread was about C-210's. I am sorry but I don't know of any in BK.

Cheers,

Z.:ok:

[GWYN]

Zhaadum

I remember them well. I managed to take BEC to Mudgee with a couple of mates, then the week after it was pranged by someone landing it on the nosewheel at BK. So the next time we took the other one, MHC, to Coffs. I just could not believe when the following week someone bent that one as well. Makes you wonder who they let loose on some of these aircraft. As you say, one of them sat for ages over by the tower in a very forlorn state.

Nice aircraft but obviously beyond the ability of some!

[Xcel]

when i was in the 210 hour building phase kss was the pranged one.

got a few hours in bec... remember the wires all falling out of the panel on my feet on approach one day, the notorious darrin parkes rescue team seriously give any formula 1 pit crew a run for there money.
good on ya dags.:}

mdz is the plane you are thinking of.... and the owner dinged mdz pulling out of the hangar cant remember it ever crashingthen again i knew it for only a short time.


oh and to the original poster, if it is a duchess you want go see phil onus at sydney skydivers. baron see schofields or look at av trader there is one there to speak of. and depending on hours and people known some operators will hire a charter plane i.e australia by air due to lack of errr business...;)

:E

[ContactMeNow]

oh and to the original poster, if it is a duchess you want go see phil onus at sydney skydivers. baron see schofields or look at av trader there is one there to speak of. and depending on hours and people known some operators will hire a charter plane i.e australia by air due to lack of errr business...;)

:E

Phil owns IIF right?
And im sure pat watson will be able to help you out with a Baron, one of his mates owns a nice shiney one :E

[DeltaSix]

Yeah I've heard IIF had a prang. Wheels up I think during taxi ? :*
ASA does not have a HSI though.
I was looking for a Chieftain to hire and it's difficult too. The 2 old Chiefs I was flying back in 02-03 is not there anymore. :{ . One of them has gone to Cairns the other one is at PMQ.

So, looks like I will have to hire a PN68. I know IYN is for hire out of Camden.
Do you guys know of any other outfit that rents it out ? Does Aerospace still have their Parte ? what's the condition of that ?

[morno]

If it's anything like other twins in Bankstown, 3 moon landings, and a shuttle go around in the last 90 days, :hmm:

[das Uber Soldat]

Yeah I've heard IIF had a prang. Wheels up I think during taxi ? :*
ASA does not have a HSI though.
I was looking for a Chieftain to hire and it's difficult too. The 2 old Chiefs I was flying back in 02-03 is not there anymore. :{ . One of them has gone to Cairns the other one is at PMQ.

So, looks like I will have to hire a PN68. I know IYN is for hire out of Camden.
Do you guys know of any other outfit that rents it out ? Does Aerospace still have their Parte ? what's the condition of that ?


yeh the space still has 2 partes, and a duchess available.

The 'condition' is marginal ;) I think Z has 19800 hours now.

[bentleg]

I've seen IYN out the front of the old Aero Link hangar at BK, I'm assuming it was being used by SAC, you could call them and perhaps they would x-hire it???
IYN is parked outside Gostner Aviation at Camden at the moment. It is listed By Gostner and by Airborne as available for hire.