Virgin Blue EBA

[flytheplanemay]

Hello

Has anyone heard anything about the Virgin Blue EBA? There has been talk about it for some time now, but not sure if it has been voted on yet. What is the vibe up in the air?

How are things at DJ? Are they going to go down the avenue of recruiting casuals like QF?

Thanks

[smile]

We were told we were going to be able to vote on it in November. But it is now December and we haven't even seen a draft. :ugh:

So I guess we just keep waiting......waiting.....waiting.....


In the mean time I hope they don't spend all our pay rise on Management bonuses and parties for new airplanes. :E :E

[sinala1]

Now now Smile, you wouldn't be being sarcastic there would you??? :E


Latest update is that the tech crew EBA vote was cancelled before it even got to voting stage... company is in the process of "changing" a few of the proposed clauses in their new agreement. Under Workchoices legislation they are apparently required to give the Techies 7 days to peruse the new proposed agreement before it goes to vote - so I doubt you will see anything before the new year. As far as the cabin crew one goes - well who knows!! Not heard a word from the company for I think a couple of months now... Although I have been told numerous times by sources of differing reliability that we wont see ours until the tech crew one is voted upon.

:ugh:

[Flying Frypan]

The CC EBA was going to be released last week but a couple of areas came under question, so VB/FAAA are hoping to have it out within the next week or two. There are no ties with the pilots EBA progress at all. As soon as the I's are dotted and T's crossed it will be out for all to see.
I for one am waiting to see what it looks like.

[sinala1]

Anyone know anything about the backpay that was going to be paid on the 22nd of december, but wasnt paid?

[milbud]

When I contacted the trusty BNE H/O team on 22 Dec I was told that it had been stalled until Jan but could not be given a date for the payment.
As for the EBA...I'm happy if they take a bit more time, as long as they remove at least 75% of the ifs, buts ands and maybes from the content. I always understood that an EBA should be black and white but have to admit that I got lost in the double talk. But then again maybe I just needed things explaining to me in detail.
I still wouldn't swap my job for any other!!!

Hope all is going well for you Sinala1, have my CS PAC on 9th Jan, fingers crossed.

[crewbus]

Hi guys

Let me start by saying what a great forum where we can air our annoyances and whinge about things that only cabin crew can relate too!

My whinge:

Does anyone here work for DJ, and find the jokes that are made over the PA slightly annoying?

Why are there still those CS that insist on making jokes over the PAs? I find them really irriatating, and reflect on me as someone trying to come across in a professional manner. I was under the impression that we were trying to capture the business market.

Would love to hear from fellow DJ crew, or even people who have flown DJ, on their thoughts of the so called 'jokes'.

Am I just being a PPrude?

[skycrewhosties]

Hei Guys

I would not recommend Westaff in Sydney - very poor customer service skills - suprised Virgin Blue has choosen them as their reps for recruitment of staff!

[PER210]

who and what are they? i tried looking on google but only got some american site..

[crewbus]

They are an agency that Virgin Blue use to recruit ground staff. Many of the ground staff employed are not actually employed by Virgin Blue, they are employed by Westaff. Melbourne ground crew use them also. I think after you prove to be a hard worker/team player, you then get offered a full time position with Virgin.

Its kind of like the Qantas/MAM thing, you wear the uniform but are not actually employed by the airline.

At least that is my understanding of it.

[skycrewhosties]

Recruitment agency in Sydney Westaff - Does not match the customer service that VB offers.....:rolleyes: suprised why they recruit VB staff from there?

[NIGELINOZ]

I don't work in the industry but I fly DJ (aka V Blue) a lot,and yes the jokes are annoying,especially when they are old,bad jokes when I'm trying to catch up on paperwork etc,but what really annoys me is the music played way too loud on boarding!
On one trip last year it was so loud I had to ask the F/A to turn it down ,she did so,reluctantly I thought,I even considered never flying with them again but have relented after writing to the head office and receiving a polite reply and a promise to examine the issue.

[crewbus]

I guess hiring from agencies works out cheaper, not having to pay holidays/staff travel etc.

For the record, I have never had any dealings with them as I am crew, but here is their website: http://www.westaff.com.au/index.html

Might be a good step into the industry and company.

[crewbus]

NIGELINOZ, maybe you could write to management about the PAs. Wink wink.

[exmax]

Hi there,
Thanks for the posting about Weststaff. I actually applied and was invited to an interview for next week, I'm still working so I can't take time off to go. Having said that, on another posting a long time ago I'm sure I read that the conditions weren't so great? I spoke to a guy there and he said you'd have to pay something like $150 for the medical, $175 for the ASIC card and around $300 would be deducted from your wages for the uniform (you can buy 2nd hand uniforms too if you so desire:E )
Does anyone out there work for them currently, what's it REALLY like?:hmm:

[crewbus]

Hi exmax

I am actually crew, so I cant tell you about working conditions.

However, I think it would be a good way to get into Virgin, if you can stick it out for a few months until DJ offer you a permanent posy with them.

And I wouldnt even be able to tell you which of the Melbourne crew are employed by Virgin, and which are westaff. Same as Sydney crew. Everyone works together as a team.

As for forking out the dough for the ASIC and medicals, years ago I had to do the same for Qantas, so this doesnt strike me as unusual. I think it is worth it if you really want the job.

[skycrewhosties]

We think if you wear the VB uniform U must represent the company to same standart as VB ? Right ? regardless if you work for VB or Westaff:)

[skycrewhosties]

By the way are the VB cabin crew on U Tube and My space employed by Westaff Sydney as well ? :) :rolleyes:

[crewbus]

That is exactly right. It doesnt matter who pays your wages, if you are wearing the uniform, you represent the company.

Can I ask what exactly it is that Westaff have done in order for you to post in the first place?

[exmax]

Hi crewbus,
Thanks for the response, I've been here for 3years and only just got my perm residency, so I'm really looking to get back into flying again. A very good friend of mine is a CS based out of BNE, so I get to hear about conditions as crew:)
Still getting my head around the concept of paying for medicals etc as it wasn't something I did back home. Anyway, I'm sure if it's meant to be, it'll happen, working on the ground or flying or even both:ok:

[PER210]

How long would it take to get a perm possition with DJ?

[crewbus]

Exmax, try registering for Crew and Ground Services on the actual Virgin blue website also. They are not recruiting at the moment, but will keep your details on file until something comes up.

Goodluck with the interview, let us know how you go.

[PER210]

really? im not crew, but i like it when they played music on boarding... kept me entertained...

[skycrewhosties]

Well since we work for a different airline we think someone should complain to management about the "Music" on board .... wink wink

[crewbus]

Skycrewhosties, what do you mean? The dodgy boarding on DJ? What about the even dodgier jokes? :)

[NIGELINOZ]

I have no problem with playing music at a reasonable volume,but on this particular flight it was like walking into a night club.(ok maybe thats an exaggeration) but it was very loud and I was not the only pax to complain.

[crewbus]

Fair enough NIGELINOZ. Sometimes it is too loud.

In most cases I dont think the crew mind turning the music down. If only they would turn down the jokes...

[skycrewhosties]

Crewbus what do you mean during boarding ? pls explain about the dodgy jokes? :rolleyes:

[PER210]

ahh ok.. fair enough that you ask it to be turned down then

[crewbus]

Hi skycrewhosties

Sorry, what I meant was the dodgy boarding music. I wanted to know what you meant about writing to management about it...

As for the dodgy jokes, have you flown with DJ before? Hopefully if you have, it was an incident free flight with friendly service. Unfortunately, there are some supersvisors who figure that because they failed as a comedian in the real world, they think that it would be funny to make their jokes over the PA system on the aircraft, I suspect because no one can walk off and they are stuck listening :)

For example:

(During the safety demo) There are 100s of ways to leave your lover, but only 8 ways to leave this aircraft...
(After landing) Keep your seatbelt fastened, because landing into someones lap isnt the best way to meet someone, that is what the internet is for, isnt that right ......(the crew member seated next to them)

Hope this clarifies.

[skycrewhosties]

Crewbus please clarify - be more specifc:)

[skycrewhosties]

What happened to the profesional and pleasent standart set by VB? :rolleyes: Westaff???

[cckat]

it depends on the joke and how often you hear it, as an adelaide girl I hear "wind your clock back 30 years" every flight, however when I was in Sydney coming back to adelaide as a pax a few years ago, over the boarding announcement in the terminal they said "as this is a nearly empty flight could all passengers please sit near the window when we taxi past the qantas plane so they think we're full"
which did get a giggle out of me

[skycrewhosties]

I am still not sure what youare talking about??

Why "silly" jokes??:=

[NIGELINOZ]

Sorry to go slightly off thread but I did want to say that I flew with V Blue about 20 times in 2006 and the incident I mentioned was the only one I can recall where I had a "bad" experience and even then it was a pretty minor issue,I only wrote to the management about it as i thought they might appreciate some passenger feedback,in the letter I also complimented them on their customer service,value for money etc.
I have found just about 100% of V Blue staff to be friendly,professional and good at their jobs.
(And the girls are pretty good looking!)
Seriously though,long live Virgin Blue.:ok:

[skycrewhosties]

We agree with you!, we have to say there is a nice cabin crew working for VB ;) , .........., !!

[ands]

I flew with Virgin to BNE and back (from SYD) last week.

On the way to BNE, a weekday (early) morning flight, the only joke I noticed was something along the lines of "It's certainly been your pleasure having us on board...". This was so subtle I don't think anyone actually got it. I don't know whether the crew purposefully toned down the jokes because of the time of day/passenger profile/fatigue, etc.

On the way back, a Saturday afternoon flight, the Cabin Manager made a fair few jokes that were actually quite amusing. Apart from the same "your pleasure...us on board" joke (which again, no-one seemed to get), included in his repertoire was this genuinely funny joke...

"Cabin crew, please be seated and hold hands for take-off...[perfectly timed pause] Ahh, Cabin Crew X [the previously introduced ccm seated on the same jumpseat as the CM], that's not my hand!"

Maybe you had to be there, but his humour seemed to be appreciated by a large portion of people on board.

Basically, i think that jokes are appropriate depending on the types of passengers. Really, it should be up to the crew to decide whether (and what type of) jokes are appropriate for each particular flight. However, I can absolutely see how it could be very annoying to hear the same jokes repeatedly if you frequently flew DJ.

Maybe you could introduce a joke quota, with each Cabin Manager given a maximum number of jokes per service and each joke can only be used a certain number of times before it must be retired??? Joking, BTW. Boom-tish!

[skycrewhosties]

Well Folks Have a gooood Weekend!

And I hope U appreciate my opinion about "loud music"..... :)

[exmax]

Thanks crewbus - I'm registered with cabincrew.staff - thing is I'm not sure if I'm ready to move from Sydney.

[crewbus]

Skycrewhosties, I think we are on a different page.

Maybe you are one of those CSs I am referring who doesn't realise the jokes they tell are not all that funny. Then again maybe not, with your odd attitude towards Westaff.

Keep the opinions coming guys, like I said, maybe I am out on my own in thinking these jokes bring the airline down. Especially on a Melbourne - Sydney 6.00am....

[na5tee]

I do remember reading an NTSB report a few years ago about cabin crew announcements and particularly the safety demonstration. I cannot locate the document at the moment but I will be sure to post a link when I do. The report suggested that when the demo is done in a light-hearted and/or slightly comical way, pax are more likely to a) pay attention and b) remember the content.

I would agree that perhaps DJ is a little out-of-the-ordinary in this regard and that sometimes the jokes may not be to everyone's taste and even that at 0800 on a Monday morning they may be a little irritating. Having said that, I was on a BNE-CNS recently and the CS delivered not only the demo but every PA with jokes in it (btw, with a perfect deadpan that made it even funnier) and received a round of applause from the cabin upon her last PA as we were arriving in CNS. If one thing can be said, it does show that the pax were listening for once.

[skycrewhosties]

Well, My question is: can VB cabin crew pose in party photos in their VB uniform?

[NIGELINOZ]

There is of course the story about a flight on an unnamed airline a few years ago,on final approach the captain came on the PA and announced:
"Cabin Crew Please Arm Doors And Cross Dress!" Perhaps DJ could try that one!(No,not the cross dressing:eek: )

[keeponsmiling]

Hi guys,

I just want to clarify a few things that have been discussed on this thread... I work for Virgin Blue and no you do not have to pay for your ASIC or your uniform. You are supplied with a sufficient amount of the uniform when you begin and any more things you wish to add you can pay for, however after 12 months you are re issued with some more clothing. The only you had to pay for is the medical which I believe if you really want the job you will pay for- it's really not that big a deal.

I love working as cabin crew and the boarding music is not dodgy - it's actually songs that are in the top 20 at the moment. Unfortunately we can't cater for everyone's music taste but it's certainly not offensive music.

The PA's you are talking about are quite amusing at times but the times these joke type things are put in are on flights that suit. For instance - the cs or crew wouldn't be making jokes on a early morning business flight from MEL to SYD yet may be more appropraite on a Melbourne to Gold Coast etc flight.

Anyway... I am proud to be a Virgin Blue employee :)

[exmax]

Keeponsmiling - the paying for uniform/ASIC was in relation to Weststaff GROUND STAFF for DJ, I was told about this by Westsaff the other day.

[skycrewhosties]

Well that current airline that we fly for, (unfortunately due to confidentiality we can not name the airline) does not play boarding music, and is not as fun as VB, so overall we think VB would be a GREAT airline to work!!

[lowerlobe]

skycrewhosties,

Why can't you tell us or mention the airline you fly for?

[skycrewhosties]

Like in the above post - mainly due to confidently we can NOT mention the name of the airline, but we are about to head of to work for our next destination….., and perhaps you can see the professional and pleasant CABIN CREW that work for this airline and you might be lucky to be served by Us Skycrewhosties. :)

[summa101]

I know for a fact that yes Ground staff employed by Westaff do have to pay for uniform and ASIC and then when you leave or put off for no reason, you hand your uniform back in and dont get any money reimbursed. A friend of mine paid close to $400, was told to hand everything back in, which I uppose goes without saying the reason why, but didn't receive anything back. It was, I guess liking hiring the uniform, and getting no bond back.

[ZappBrannigan]

I'm a very frequent DJ traveller, have been over the past few years and can give my opinion.

The jokes wear very thin very quick - in standard PAs or in the safety demo. Travelling on QF/JQ is a pleasure in this respect - just professional conduct with no rubbish. I concede, however, that this is not the image that DJ wants - so I put up with it. I've heard a lot of complaints about it but there's always a group of pax who seem to enjoy the jokes. The music's been covered - but if I had my way that'd disappear too.

By far my biggest annoyance with DJ cabin crew is their non-adherence to CAO 20.16.3, paras 3.1 and 4.1 - namely the requirement for all passengers and all crew members to be seated with seatbelts/harnesses worn during turbulence. Only when turbulence becomes close to severe do the cabin crew even consider sitting down - and a few times I've had cups of boiling water carried past my face during turbulence. The crew retire to the rear galley to talk amongst themselves at this time while the passengers are strapped down, as required by law. Trolley carts are left unsecured in the aisle. I can only imagine this is a training issue as EVERY crew does this.

A workmate has written to the company about this - next step is CASA/ATSB. Only a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured.

Enough negatives - some positives - overall the company has a very good attitude and by and large I really enjoy flying with them. Flight deck security and awareness was pathetic a couple of years ago - this has improved a thousand times over.

[adam_ant]

Hi everyone - VBCC here. To Zapp I have to say I totally agree with you - if you think as a pax the seatbelt issue is confusing and unsafe - try being a cc member. Our safety comes down to whether the flight deck think it warrants crew being seated and our personal judegement. I personally think is sends the wrong message that crew are up and about when the pax are not allowed to be. I hope that your attention to this matter will make a change as reports from crew fall on deaf ears.

As to the jokes - again I agree. There are a select number of crew who can deliver creative and funny jokes - the rest (including me) are hopeless. Also too many crew don't know when it is appropriate and when is it not. Trust me - the crew in the back are often rolling their eyes at these jokes as much as the pax are. My pet hate is when the CS makes a joke at my expense (ie - introducing me with a 'side-story'). Unfortuneatley we have a behavioural compentancy called Virgin Flair - which we are rated on every trip. The vast majority of us think this mean being helpful, kind, personable. However, old school virgin blue is all about "fun in the cabin" and there are those that persist. We actually have a book of jokes, stories, and games to use!! Again only customer feedback can change this.

The good news is that as the Foxtel TV is rolled out across the fleet - we are no longer allowed to make non-authorised PAs as it cuts out the TV which you have paid for. Also as VB reduces the crew compliment - it reduces the ability of 'fun in the cabin' as we will be flat chat trying to get our required duties/service done. The foxtel also kills the music as a/c with the live TV are not equiped with music systems - its so quiet its a bit scary!


Adam xoxo

[skycrewhosties]

Is there anything wrong with "old school"....? U can still be "old school" and have fun at the same time!!

[crewbus]

Adam Ant, we should fly together. No funny jokes allowed, wink wink.

Keep on smiling, I wish it was only on Cooly and Cairns flights! I guess I am traumatised from a CS who on a business flight made about 5 silly remarks during the final PA, not to mention the demo etc.

Anyway, I too, am proud to be DJ employee, and like I said from the beginning, it is really the only gripe I have.

Hmmm, what about those rumoured 5 sector days?? Just joking. All in all I think that DJ is a great airline, and hope they can really conquer the business market, maybe even add a business class to the cabin....

[skycrewhosties]

No News is good News right...... OK we get the joke:)

[ands]

skycrewhosties

The term "old school" needs to be read in the context of the sentence: "old school virgin blue is all about...". I think adam_ant was talking specifically about crew who are still stuck in Virgin Blue's "old school" way of doing things (eg 'airobics', toilet paper races, over the top announcements) rather than Virgin Blue's "new school" approach (business like, etc.).

adam_ant

I agree about the extra information concerning crew that gets divulged during announcements. Does anyone care that Crew X recently bought some quirky item from e-bay? Or that Crew Member Y's birthday was three weeks ago this Tuesday?



I can see the logic behind the argument that making announcements 'light and fun' may encourage people to pay attention. But isn't there a point at which this becomes counter-productive? Surely after being bombarded with irrelevant pa's people just shut-off to all pa's.

[skycrewhosties]

Well, perhaps U guys R right, VB flair....., but we think cabin crew regardless if they work for Virgin Blue or Royal Jet should ADHERE to some type of Standard, and by the look on U tube and Myspace the image can be perceived not as cabin crew!!

[ZappBrannigan]

adam_ant - Thanks for your reply, I'm glad to hear that some of the crew have also noticed the turbulence issue.

Apart from the fact I believe it's against the law - I see strapping pax down but not crew as a complete contradiction - pax are not strapped down for the crew's convenience but for safety in the cabin. Unless DJ crew are wearing magnetic boots that I haven't been informed about, they are just as likely to fly around the cabin as me. And I don't recall the CAO's saying anything about PICs choosing who's secured during turbulence.

I also draw attention to the SOPs of QF and JQ - everybody or nobody is strapped down. There's never a situation where crew are moving around but not pax. Of course, DJ are entitled to strap pax down at FL200 on descent - this is not a safety or turbulence issue, just a company SOP to allow the crew to prepare for landing. No worries there.

Anyway I've made my point, and I hope I get some response from the company on this issue.

[air doris]

I wont take chances, if it's good enough for the pax to be strapped in thats a good indication to me that I should be strapped in too. Airlines such as Qantas, United and others have had their fare share of crew hitting the ceiling, broken bones etc. We dont hear so much of this now as many airlines have adopted the rule that when the seat belt sign comes on, you strap your self in. I'm interested to learn the policy that you have at DJ, if you have a good one I would like to know as it could save lives. We have 2 announcements to the cabin, one is "All passengers and crew return to your seats and fasten seatbelts" . This alerts the crew that expected turbulance is coming, gives us enough time to secure carts, coffee pots etc. The other is "All passengers and crew return to your seats and fasten seatbelts Immediately" this means we are experiencing clear air turbulance and for our own safety we are to secure carts where they are, put all hot beverages on the floor and sit in the nearest seat or on the floor if required. I have found that passengers respond better to commands if the crew themselves are adhering to the rules aswell, we are after all safety proffessionals in our field and we MUST set the example. I know we are a service industry but safety is priority.

[adam_ant]

Magnetic boots - FUNNY. As this is an issue I have grappled with since day one at VB, I like to joke that we recieve a day of training from Spiderman on how to cling to floors and walls. Unfortunately I ahve ended up on the floor twice - once with negative results.

Again I agree if pax are seated, we should be seated. I like the idea of different PAs. I always think its funny that someone will need to use the toilet when the SB sign is on - and we are meant ;) to get them seated, but there we are as crew, standing up with 10ton carts out and hot liquids a-flowin'. If I were a pax I think my idea would be 'yea right, whatever - outta my way I gotta wee'.:ooh: Most CC use a bit of common sense in this regard, but there are few who are unable to think outside whats written (or not in this case) and those are the ones that will get hurt.

I don't think VB is being intentionally negligent, its just with the way the company outgrew itself so quickly, many of these issues have gone unchanged (I could give you list!). Sometimes I wonder if it takes a major injury before a change is made.

And just on a personal/political note - I have zero faith in CASA to give a crap about this or most other issues. FYI there are a few ex-VB/QF employees at CASA, one of which (ex-VB) is rather high up in the ranks. Need I say more.

[flytheplanemay]

'Why sit the crew down when they can still walk through the cabin serving and selling and snacks?' I suppose is managements point of view. Keep the pax happy continuing with a service, even if they have to remain seated. What do you think?

[sebby]

I dont think the above statement is accurate at all, safety is paramount. Apart of getting the pax seated is to restrict the danger of a congested cabin during turbulence, people up and about can injure those seated, whereas if the majority are seated that risk can be reduced. In NZ, we are often given a couple of minutes to secure the cabin before we are required to sit, baring in mind we operate in often poor windy weather and on short sectors.

Skycrewhosties... hardly any of your posts make sense nor do you use proper english??!!

Although im not a fan of DJ, I have always commended them for their innovation and for seeming to adapt as they need to. Its a jungle out there and you need to do what you can to survive. :D

[flytheplanemay]

Hi sebby,

The issue raised, was why dont DJ crew have to sit down when the seatbelt sign is on?

I was just giving a suggestion as to management MAY not want to sit crew down when the seatbelt sign is on. I agree safety is paramount.

Maybe they think that crew are more experienced in dealing with turbulence? Who knows why they make certain decisions, but I think like management most companies, the dollar usually comes first.

[sebby]

Yes you are right with the $ point of view, I know within the QF group there are times when apparently CAA or CASA has given certification to certain crew on the aircraft to be able to stand, eg - safety demo, arming and disarming of doors (these tasks are performed when the seat belt sign is illuminated).

Back in the days of Ansett NZ (not sure if this applied in aus), (and i know this because crew have told me here in nz but i used ot also fly in aus), that seat belt sign at certain times only applied to the passengers and if crew were required to be seated then the captain would inform them to be seated separately of crew. I believe that perhaps this method still applies to a lot of airlines, including DJ. The idea behind it being applied at Ansett NZ was the short sectors and limited service time. So perhaps from this point of view, yes you are correct. I also believe one crew member may stand up to relay jackets back to pax seated in J/C, during taxi in. This is a company policy within Jetconnect, but im not sure how it would stand up against CASA or CAA.

[wa.man]

Curious to know after the court case a few years ago if Virgin have started to employ older crew..????

[ZappBrannigan]

flytheplanemay - I think you may be missing my main point - that is, it's against the law. It is not merely a bad idea - it is not permitted, under the Civil Aviation Orders, to be moving in the cabin when the presence of turbulence has been defined.

CAO 20.16.3 para 3.1:

"Each crew member and each passenger shall occupy a seat of an
approved type:
(a) during take-off and landing; and
(b) during an instrument approach; and
(c) when the aircraft is flying at a height less than 1000 feet above
the terrain; and
(d) in turbulent conditions:
except:
(i) infants, children and stretcher cases carried in accordance with
subsections 13 and 14 respectively; and
(ii) package dispatchers carried in accordance with section 29.5; and
(iii) parachutists carried in accordance with subsection 16."

Paragraph 4.1:

"Except as provided in subsections 14 and 16 safety harnesses, or
seat belts where safety harnesses are not fitted, shall be worn by all
persons at the times listed in paragraph 3.1. Seat belts and safety
harnesses shall be adjusted to fit the wearer without slack."

Subsections 14 and 16 referred to above relate to stretcher cases and parachutists - not applicable.

The only grey area would be mild turbulence - but DJ's policy is to remain unsecured until it's hard to stand up. DJ management's view on the matter is quite frankly irrelevant - company SOPs cannot override the CAOs. The flight attendants do not have a legal option to remain standing in the cabin - which is why the airline has liability issues when something serious happens.

In short, being seated/secured is good safety practice, but more importantly, the ONLY practice allowed under the Civil Aviation Orders.

[Melbourne]

We would place Virgin Blue slightly above other airlines as they are innovative, and by the looks of the two cabin crew on U tube which look professional makes this airline fun to work for.

We also heard that the recruitment process is different and lot more relaxed than other airliners. :)

[wirgin blew]

Turbulence is rated into three levels
Slight - continue service with caution
Moderate - service may need to be discontinued or modified
Severe - sit at station or in nearest spare seat

I realise that the company wants to get the most out of there crew but also putting the carts away everytime the seatbelt sign is switched on is also impractical. We are told when we are expecting bumps and we adjust the service accordingly.
The Cabin Supervisor or any member of crew can decide when they have had enough of the bumps and halt the service.
I have not felt the need yet to do this yet. Which could be down to luck or the sheer fact that our service doesnt start till the bumps stop or that the service is over well before the bumps begin.
I generally find that most of the turbulence is closer to the ground. During cruise on most occassions the flying is smooth.

[wirgin blew]

Any more info on this. The pilots vote finishes today I think and early indications were against there EBA.
Be interesting to see if this affects ours in any way or whether the company will continue with it regardless.

Rumours I have heard-
allowance for food in, snacks in, meals out
3% payrise for CC, more substantial for CS
5 day trips
5 sector days under CAP 371 rules
130 hours over 4 weeks
No available pay just overtime once you work over 130 hours
Part time paid pro rata, you get to nominate how much less you want to work
New rostering system to be rolled out

Still waiting for a hard copy to sink my teeth into and discuss with my fellow PPPruners.

[sinala1]

Pilot EBA voted down, 87% No vote vs 13% Yes vote

I too have heard the "no crew meal" concept, and am hoping that its not true!!! I already have more than enough to carry without having to bring my own food too :ugh:

[sebby]

Good point sinala, do you know what the snacks would be?

If you were receiving a snack (hopefully something healthy), would this tide you over until you could use your meal allownce to buy something?

I guess it all depends on the ammount of allowance you get, I know we are crying out for an allowance as our crew meals are so unhealthy. We do receive fruit and cheese and crackers to snack on aswell as instant soup, I find I generally have this until its I get home or to hotels ec, but feel ripped off that my DTA goes on eating at home and when im away!

I believe Air NZ crew get a meal allownce if they do not get time to consume their meal, and its up to the cabin manager to report whether this happens or not...

[crewbus]

What do we think about the 4 crew being implemented on the 737-800? Do you think it will make that much difference?

I dont think it will make much of a difference to the crew, but I think the CS will definitely feel the pressure.

[sinala1]

Crewbus I dont know of anyone who is pleased at the concept... so far from my experiences it presents the biggest issue on turnaround - CS and L2 boarding, R2 at the overwing (during refuelling) only leaves R1 spare - the CS and R1 tend to swap boarding back and forth quite a bit as CS does a fair bit of work during boarding (OBT log on, flight report, bank bag etc - especially on a short sectors day) - so if you have a boarding issue at the front (eg duplicate boarding pass etc) and R1 goes to deal with that, and all of a sudden L2 has a boarding issue too - well the sh*t can potentially hit the fan - same goes for R2 collecting unmins etc.

I can see a lot of delays occuring because of this... not to mention supp payment forms for crews not getting their breaks (even less frequently than happens now)

Any other thoughts?

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

Sinala1 - I thought the cart with the OBT and bank bags was supposed to be sealed during turnaround and until crew release. You not following procedure young man.
The best thing to do is understand the processes and try to implement them and fill out an action sheet or a hazard and event report whenever something goes pear shape. The business runs by the law of KRA's and KPI's, so if there is a spike in reports with legitimate issues in them that the safety department has to investigate, it will definately get the attention of management. We can't stop it being implemented, we can only report on and best manage the areas we are in control of.
Totally agree on the supp forms and breaks though!!

[sinala1]

I thought the cart with the OBT and bank bags was supposed to be sealed during turnaround and until crew release. You not following procedure young man.
Its called Time Management - the less time I have to spend inflight doing that kind of stuff increases my available time for helping crew with other stuff, and therefore ultimately the amount of time available to crew for breaks - and was cleared by my CCDM as a "good idea" - but thanks for your feedback anyway :)

A question to the CS's - do you ever, ever get a break? Eg on a -700 (and soon -800 :( ) with 4 crew 4 sector MEL-SYD there is No time at all that you have away from the punters - at least the crew down the back get a bit of down time (after take off, and on descent)! R1's I find on these days get exhausted, and say the same thing - they are "on" all day. Sure its different when there are longer sectors etc, but I am talking about in general.

Would be interested to see what other CS's have to say, and more to the point how they are able to achieve these breaks and maintain KRA's at the same time?

Thanks!

[cokecropduster]

Any truth that a SYD base is going to be opened again?

[sinala1]

Apparently Yes, CokeCropDuster - not officially announced by the company, but pilot EBA talks made reference to 3 bases (BNE 30%, SYD 30%, MEL 40% I think were the sizes) - and I have heard an email went out to SYD ground crew that, amongst other things, made reference to the establishment of tech and cabin crew bases there this year.

[crewbus]

I guess that would mean bye bye Sydney overnights?

[wirgin blew]

I guess that would mean bye bye Sydney overnights?
Some, but can they get cabin crew in SYD to work for what we get paid?

As for no L2X only time will tell whether or not this is a good or bad thing. Yes we will be working differently than before but will we be working harder I cannot say for sure. We seem to survive when there are only 4 of us on a 700 and as a floater I dont always feel that welcome onto a 800 anyway so perhaps this will be better as far as the team goes. Breaks are already in the roster on the turns so you can forget about the sup payment form. No second service on flights below 2 hours, so once again forget the sup forms. The reality is that a fair few of those flights didnt have a second service anyway so lets just be honest with ourselves about that.
R1 and R2 dont marshall so that will save us and if the caterers put that away properly then more time there. All we have left is the cleaning and I am sure that by the next EBA when they reduce us to 3 crew and get the cleaners on they will save some more money.
My only thought is that live to air isnt going to be the saviour that we think. I believe that many people will think the tv is to expensive and wont bother paying the money. Have the wise men at the top thought about this and how they are going to keep foxtel happy. Will we have to increase our tickets by $6 to give the product away.
Also with all the changes happening with our breaks and reduced crew have the wise men worked out yet how expensive it is to pax us all around the country. When you pax a crew from MEL-SYD and the flight is full you are missing out on revenue. Who is accounting for this. I have seen full flights with 4 paxing crew equating to $2000 in revenue gone( 4xfully flex).
I guess you could say I am not happy with the way things are going atm but who is. Its time to start listening to all your employees and not just the ones going into the office.

[sinala1]

The reality is that a fair few of those flights didnt have a second service anyway so lets just be honest with ourselves about that.

How about the crews that are not following Service Flows on flights that would require a second service anyway?

I staff travelled BNE-ADL the other day, a 2hr 30 flight that only had 1 service done, and no more than 3 cabin crew walk-throughs done. Why? Because the crew were "too tired", or so they said (not that I asked - I had gone to the galley for a drink and when they realised I was on staff travel, the comment was, and I quote - "damn we were hoping there was no one on board so we don't have to do a second service"). I can tell you now that all flights that I operate that require a second service, get a second service (circumstances permitting, of course).

As for breaks being on the rosters during turns, well time will tell if that happens or not - but then of course crew are going to whinge and moan about spending time in airports!

As for R1 and R2 marshalling well that does not really make a huge difference either way - I am guessing thats been done purely to keep R2 at the overwing on the -800 during boarding/disembarking when refuelling.

So much is going to change, and I for one am looking forward to having an EBA document to read so I can make some informed decisions on how I vote.

[adam_ant]

this is a very interesting dicussion indeed!

As crew we can only do what we can do. I do my job very well at the moment and for me personally I WILL NOT work any harder next month. It will be interesting to see if there is an increase in delays as I think on an 800 the days of 15 minute HOT TURNS are over with 4 crew only. I suspect there will also be an increase in "door incidents" at R2 as some people will rush through the disarm/crossck in order to get to the overwing before the stampede??!!

Alas, howver, I think the boat has sailed on this issue as CASA has put its stamp on it and soon our JQ friends will also have to endure reduced crews.

Adam xoxo

[crewbus]

Hi colleagues

Has anyone heard if we are getting our backpay this week?

Is that 'over promise, under deliver' line they drummed into us in training not appicable to payroll or management?

[lowerlobe]

WIRGIN BLEW,

It was interesting to read your comments regarding the seat belt sign and when crew should sit down.

As a crew member for 30 years I realise how inconvenient it is to halt the meal service because of turbulence.However if it is good enough to have the seat belt sign on to protect the pax then it is also good enough to protect the cabin crew.Otherwise you would not have the sign on in the first place.

I find the VB classicification of turbulence interesting but I can assure you that turbulence can occur at any altitude just not when in close proximity to the ground.

[crewbus]

Backpay? Anyone know anything?

[smile]

Crewbus,

I haven't looked myself, however another member of my crew got two payslips this week. One for normal pay and the other for backpay. But, alas, the backpay amount was no deposited into her account. :ugh: :ugh:

[sinala1]

I got mine... apparently was processed last friday, and would have been deposited into different banks friday night/monday morning

[lowerlobe]

What happened that caused crew to be paid short in the first place?

[smile]

Sinala- mine finally arrived in the bank on Monday morning.


Lowerlobe- we were never "underpaid" in the first place- the back pay is a result of the on-going negotiation of our eba. We haven't had a payrise in two years.:ugh: :ugh:

[resboy]

am curious how you can receive backpay for something that hasn't been voted in yet?!?! :confused: :confused: :confused:

[wirgin blew]

The Company and FAAA have agreed that this amount of 3% is seperate to the agreement and I guess is to be seen as a gesture of goodwill by the company.
Kind of like the commission we get paid for onboard sales, nothing in the EBA about it but just another gesture of goodwill.

One week till the 4 crew start on the 800. Most seem to be resigned to the fact that this is the way to go. Please fill in safety reports if you think things are going amiss and meal break forms as well.
We cant reverse the decision but we have to let the company know if its not working.
My scenario is R2 picking up the 8 UMNR's, R1 standing at the overwing, and the CS halting boarding for any number of good reasons leading to delays. What problems have the rest of you forseen?

[sinala1]

Wirgin Blew, I echo your sentiments re boarding and disembarking on the -800 during refuelling being the major safety setbacks. Ground crew told me the other day they have already been told that 8 unmins will change to a cap of 4, which is a start. I suggested that Ground Crew bring them to the aircraft and sign them over to the CS at the L1 door. A point that was made was that ground crew are unlikely to ask the questions that CC want the answers to (medication, food allowable, can purchase stuff of carts etc etc) - not through intentional negligence, but because they already have enough to think about. Possibly the unmin forms can be expanded to include sections where parents can answer all the questions CC would usuallly ask?

[hostebv]

Do Virgin Blue cabin crew also work on Polynesian Blue aircraft that fly to places like Vanuatu and Fiji or is that a different company?

[sinala1]

Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue and Polynesian Blue are all crewed by separate companies (at least I think Pac Blue and Poly Blue are not crewed by the same crew!)... at this stage, VB crew operate domestic sectors only.

[adam_ant]

The cap on unmins is a good idea, however we have a cap NOW which the ground supervisor can lift at his discretion - the cap of 4 needs to be frim. Not sure a form with the questions on it is a good idea as I find parents just tick boxes to get their kids on - when you actually ask them if there are any medical issues - they suddenly come forth with some. My understanding is JQ doesn't bother with unimins and I can see why!

Thre crew ratio has not changed - it is simply that CASA has given VB an exemption on the 800 - which means that if CASA audits us and thinks its unsafe (ie - no time for the over the top briefing to be done properly - or R2 not making it to the overwing before the stampede) then they will withdrawl the exemption - so safety reports are essential! Its only if parliment ever change Oz to 1:50 that the 4 crew will be permanent. Hopefully CASA will see the better of this little experiment.

Anyone else being hit with massive hours lately??? My understanding was we were only going to be hit with mega huge trips AFTER the bidding system??

Adam xoxo

[sinala1]

Anyone else being hit with massive hours lately???
I am finding at the moment, in general, I am getting long days with relatively short rest periods... I dont mind working long days or working up to what we are able to be rostered (140 or 135 hours), however I do object to it when there is insufficient time to use a rest period for Rest. Rest does not mean bus to hotel, check in, strip off uniform, iron next uniform, eat Tony Ferguson shake for dinner, do tomorrows paperwork, climb into bed, sleep 7 hours (if you are lucky), get up, get ready, eat Tony Ferguson shake for breakfast, get bus back to airport - just to do another 9 hour day with short rest all over again!

Rest is also about winding down and relaxation - "de-working" for a bit. This is something I have bought up in the past, and will bring up again. I know some crew want to be home as often as possible, and thats great. However for those of us who actually enjoy the travel, I think crew would look forward to going to work more if they had time to spend in the cities we fly to - outside the hotel! ESPECIALLY in Melbourne - 15 hours from midnight till 3pm the next day at the airport hotel is mind-numbingly painful. I personally believe little things like this (giving crew enough time to get out there and see the places we fly to - doesnt have to be 5 days or anything, but sufficient rest - even with long days thats fine - just give us time to get out and about as well!) will really increase crew morale and engagement. I understand there is talk of increasing Min rest in the next EBA to 11 or 12 hours, but 12 hours really is still not enough to see or do anything other than the hotel really!

I love my job, really I really do, and want to continue to do so! Sure there may be a bit of a cost increase in transport to and from MEL city hotel instead of us walking to the airport hotel, but especially on the midnight arrivals into Melbourne this would greatly reduce sickness on those trips I think - so the costs would balance out. Same goes for the bus system in SYD - spending sometimes up to an hour of your rest period sitting in airports waiting (half hour at sign off, half hour at sign on) because of the bus schedules is not particularly pleasant.

I am going to Pro-actively bring these points up in the forums - I want to present solutions rather than problems - its these little things that make such a difference to crew, and I believe that people who don't fly and dont live the lifestyle we live cant really understand that (not through lack of trying - moreso through lack of living their lives out of a suitcase!). With the massive cost savings achieved through the 4 crew on the -800, combined with other cost savings that will subsequently be achieved if the new work rules come in, I believe there is scope for a little bit of change in our favour too :)

Oh and just to clarify, its important that people understand that this is *NOT* a whinge/bitch - moreso a suggestion on ways to, as D.R. says in his email sign off,
“Creating an environment where people want to fly and enjoy it”
- because everyone used to love working for VB - now I am finding each subsequent VA Exchange group that comes back from the UK is commenting on the noticeably decreasing levels of job satisfaction amongst crew.

Thankyou :)

[smile]

sinala for prime minister:E

[wirgin blew]

Morale is going down but the comment that I had heard recently was "out with the old in with the new". That was in reference to the fact that VB turns there staff over. I dont like to believe this as it costs money to train people and to have them leave just when they are getting efficient is madness.
People are leaving for various reasons and in the last week alone I have flown with more than 5 which is possibly the reason why the hours are out of control. I personally have been around the 125 for the last 6 months but next month it has dropped to 110 ish. These are only rostered hours, add in the AVL days and this number starts to go up.
Also I just feel like DR is "over promising and under-delivering" atm with the EBA. First it was Sept 06 then Dec 06 now we are looking at Jun 07. WTF is going on with this. Let us have a look at the EBA and decide whether it is even worth looking at rather than drag it out for 6 months then vote no anyway.
As BG said in his email about LH. We need to stay focused on SH which is our business.
Sorry if I am ranting, too many early starts.

[sinala1]

Jun 07
Where did you get that info? :eek: The email that came out the other day said "very near future" for an EBA...

[charlie_vb]

[QUOTE=wirgin blew]
As BG said in his email about LH. We need to stay focused on SH which is our business.

Hey guys,

What was this email??? I must have deleted it

Thanks

[crewbus]

From what I hear, I think most people are happy with the EBA we have. Let's face it, we are always going to want more rest, more money, more days off etc.

My opinion, the longer this EBA takes, the better. I think we have it pretty good at the moment...

[smile]

I think most people are happy with the EBA we have
I think we have it pretty good at the moment...
Crewbus do we work for the same Virgin Blue????
Do you really enjoy the fact that you can do a 3 day trip with 4 sectors everyday and minimum rest both oevernights.
How about getting a phone call on your day off to work- and not having the option to say "no"!
One of my favourites is doing 6 days on and then 1 day off, only to back up and do another 6 days on!
I could go on and on and on...
Really take a good look at our current EBA, we really don't have any protection for health and lifestyle. Everything can be changed due to "unforseen circumstances". Everything. (I worked with a crew member last week who had just had 12 hours rest at home!)
A lot of crew may be say that the current EBA is 'better the devil you know', but I haven't spoken to anyone who thinks that the current EBA is a good EBA.

[crewbus]

Hi smile

Yes I do work for the same Virgin Blue, I guess the difference between 'my' Virgin Blue and 'your' Virgin Blue is that I take the good with the bad. Compared with other airlines, I think we have it pretty good for the money we make.

I dont think I am in the minority, but still that is my opinion.

What I like about our EBA is the chance to earn money on available days. From what I hear, and I admit, this is only rumour, but with the new EBA, we will not have the chance to earn the extra money as available days will be scrapped.

Yes, we are going to get paid overtime if we go over the monthly hours, but how often do you think this will happen? With all the extra training groups going through, plus the reduced crew on the 800, I would say that the company have planned that there will be no need to pay anyone overtime, because of all of the extra crew. Just a thought??

As for being drafted, I rarely hear of anyone being drafted, this could be due to many crew, including myself, not answering private numbers.

I guess I like this EBA because this is what I agreed to when I joined the company. I knew exactly what I was in for when I signed across the dotted line.

[adam_ant]

I hate AVL days.

[smile]

HI crewbus,

I too agree that the money isn't bad for what we do- but the conditions are very bad!!!

Up here is BNE we have a few crew maxing out their monthly hours. Only last week I almost offloaded a crew member who was within an hour of maxing out for the month- the rest of her roster was set in stone due to training requirements, so if there had been a delay it would have been trouble.

The reduced crew on the 800's only affects cabin crew numbers- not supervisors. Did you know that we have just had the first recruitment drive for CS's in BNE in nearly 3 years. No wonder my doctor diagnosed me with fatigue when I was unwell last year.

As for being drafted... I don't want to get started on that one!!:mad: :ugh:


At the moment it looks like life is a little different in MEL than it is in BNE- we are getting hammered.


Anyway the fact is that the current EBA will be taken over by a new EBA some time in the next year. (or three) When you receive the first draft to vote on take the time to really read it. Apply every scenario to it that you can possibly think of, the good, the bad and the very ugly. If a scenario fits, it can (and probably will) happen.


good luck

love SMILE

[crewbus]

Hi Smile!

Do you really think our conditions are that bad??

What are Jetstar or MAM casuals conditions like I wonder? 'Better' than ours? Doubt it.

Like I have said previously, we are always going to want more. Gone are the days of long overnight stops. Doesnt work out cost effective. And lets face it, the company is here to make money, and I think they will want more and more as time goes on, hence making our conditions not as favourable as what (I think) they are now.

Im happy to do my 4 sector days with min rest. Gets me home quicker, but with the overnight in my pocket:) Don't fancy 5 sector days though ;)

Anyway, we will wait and see what happens when the new EBA comes out.

Happy flying :ok:

[sinala1]

Crewbus personally I detest min rest overnights - defeats the purpose of flying. I don't buy into the "cost effectiveness" arguement in places like bne/syd/mel/adl/ool - even hba/per - as there is plenty of flights in and out of those places a day to create the pairings around. Crew can still do 8 - 9 hour duties each day with reasonable rest each night - reasonable is 15 + hours. I have nothing against working the hours our agreement states we can - but when you have 9 hour days 4 days in a row with rest each night being 13 hours or less, it just does not work for anyone, and its increasingly difficult to motivate crew to work hard when they turn up for duties like that week in week out.

I believe that there is a happy medium to be had - one that keeps the beancounters happy, whilst keeping crew happy at the same time. Right now the $$$ vs Employee Happiness pendulum is swinging firmly towards the $$ side of things.

[crewbus]

Hi Sinala1:ok:

I have never worked in a crewing department of an airline, so I will never fully understand the 'reasons' for making the rosters the way they do. Giving someone, for example, a 24 hour layover in Sydney, would not be cost effective, when they can give you a 12 hour layover, and get another 9 hours out of you, while still achieving your 10 days off per month. Does that make sense, or am I completely off track?

At the end of the day, we know the company is looking at ways of cutting costs, at our expense. But look at Qantas, Jetstar, and I assume many international airlines overseas. I am not saying I agree with it, I guess I have accepted it.

At the end of the day, I can't imagine doing anything else, I love flying, so things would have to deteriorate considerably before I would even think of leaving. That is why I am happy with the EBA we are on now, because I know the company can, and will, make things more unpleasant for us. Then we will really have reason to whinge.

Happy flying :)

[ccguy]

I have read through this thread and I am literally beside myself. The whinging and complaining that is going on here is just out of this world. I am a Cabin Crew member with DJ and I have also worked in other departments with in the company and have to say that Cabin Crew are looked after better than any other department I have worked in. Even outside of the company. My partner works in an industry where he is over-worked and underpaid and when he looked at my EBA couldn't believe how well we are looked after when he compared it to his EBA.

The only thing I can say about the EBA is just wait till it comes out, read it, and make up your own mind. Galley FM is rife within Cabin Crew and so many people are gossiping about this that and the other. Anyone ever heard of the game Chinese Whispers? Take what you hear and divide it by 20 and perhaps you might be closer to the truth.

I am all for creating a happy and fun working environment, but when I have to hear all this crap about the EBA on every-friggen-flight, I really wanna lock myself in the lav. There hasn't been a single flight that I have been on lately where someone hasn't brought up the issue. And quite frankly I am sick of hearing about it.

If you are that concerned about the conditions and it is that taxing on your life, then find a new job. It is as simple as that. I don't want to hear about it anymore, and I don't think the guests in the last few rows near the rear galleys want to either.

JQ don't overnight their staff at all, so already they don't get any sort of overnight allowance. I have a friend who used to work for them. In fact he was with them when they were Impulse, and when QF took over and made them into JQ it all went downhill from there. So just in that I think that us DJ Cabin Crew members are far better off.

To change tact here a little, earlier on in the thread some person rattled off the CAO about when to wear seat belts. It is correct that CAO 20.6.3 section 3 states that crew and passengers need to occupy a seat during turbulent conditions. So what severity of turbulence??? If there is a little bit of turbulence e.g. slight turbulence (which happens on most flights) we return to our seats everytime??? When will a service be done?? We will be constantly be pushing our carts backwards and forwards down the aisle....

The Pilots I have flown with have been pretty good at keeping us up to date on the turbulence issue when they have been informed by aircraft ahead or when they know. Turbulence is unpredictable. All you can do is do your best to ensure that you protect the safety of the guests. Isn't that why we are there.

Well thats it from me. I am very eager to see the replies I get from this post. More whinging and groaning I am predicting.

Night.

[crewbus]

Hi ccguy

Many of us like this forum, so we can discuss things that happen on a daily basis in our workplace, and see how other crew feel about changes within the company and the industry.

Not sure how long you have been flying for, but part of cabin crew conversation is galley fm. It doesnt just happen at DJ, it happens in every airline around the world. We work with people who we don't know really know that well, and one common thing we can talk about is our job. With the new EBA approaching it is a thing that will be relevant to all of us.

I agree that the constant moaning about current conditions wears you down more than the actual work and 4 sector days itself, but that is when you have you bring in your 'upbeat' personality to maybe change the subject, and try and lighten the mood.

About this thread. Quite frankly, if you have read it once and it seems to upset you, don't open it again. You don't need to be Einstein to solve that one :ok:

See you up in the air :)

[keeponsmiling]

Hey guys,

I too am cc for DJ and the EBA has been discussed on most flights of late.. however this is because everyone is concerned and has a right to voice there concerns to other cc. When and where else are we able to discuss these matters (surely not with your mates outside of work who have no idea how our company EBA works etc).

I am definitely concerned about the rumours about the EBA that are going around and hope some of them are not true.
1- our available days are now going to be re named "grey days". yes you are still on call and yes it is still at home but no you will not be paid anything for them. Gee that's real staff incentive isn't it.
2- our overnights are going to be dramatically reduced, due to the Sydney base being opened up and our crew complement reduced to 4. Therefore our pay is going to be cut once again.
3- Our 4 sector days may turn into a norm of 5 sectors with a lower rest period.


Please correct me if I am wrong about any of the things I have mentioned (yes I understand no one knows what is in the new EBA until we all read it) but almost everyone has heard the same things, which I'm praying will not pop up in the EBA and if they do, that most people will vote no to them.

So what incentive remains for cc? We won't be able to make anymore money (which most people count on from the available days and overnights - kiss those Sydney overnights goodbye).

[crewbus]

Couldn't have put it better myself :ok:

Like your work keeponsmiling!

[sinala1]

There hasn't been a single flight that I have been on lately where someone hasn't brought up the issue. And quite frankly I am sick of hearing about it.

If you are that concerned about the conditions and it is that taxing on your life, then find a new job. It is as simple as that. I don't want to hear about it anymore, and I don't think the guests in the last few rows near the rear galleys want to either.

The option you have is to Not Listen :) its your choice.

The discussion on this forum regarding the EBA is about everyone here trying to get a better understanding of the information presented to us at the forums, the information recieved from the FAAA and our Delegates, and the information recieved from different levels of Management over the course of time. People are entitled to opinions - its a part of life - as you are yours. A lot of us here have been in the CC department for a long time and seen major changes take place during that time. Its about protecting what conditions we do have, or bargaining things we are happy to give up to achieve something we did not have before.

Its not about whinging, moaning, saying how much we hate our jobs etc. I have said time and again how much I love my job (and I truly truly mean it), and how I want to be able to continue to say that. If we just sat back and did not give any input or have any discussion whatsoever, then things would never get changed. As far as JQ, QF, QQ, ZL etc go - we are *not* other airlines, and its quite defeatest to say "well xxx airline does not even do xxx activity so we should be grateful". We are a different operation to any airline in this country, so direct comparisons cant really be made.

Keep the discussion coming folks, I have copies of some of the trips that were proposed back in August last year when those folders came out - including one 7 day gem that had 4 red eyes in a row (BNE-DRW-BNE) with 13 hours rest each DAY (not night - its all DAY rest).

For those who don't like the comments being put forth here, I suggest you don't read it :ok:

[keeponsmiling]

4 red eyes in a row (BNE-DRW-BNE) with 13 hours rest each DAY (not night - its all DAY rest) - gee that's really safe isn't it!!!! So we should all just sit back and work these ridiculous sectors until someoone blows a slide and injures (god forbid kills) someone on the tarmac.

I just don't understand why anything needs to be changed!! If it already works (which i believe it does), why fix it!!

[crewbus]

I dont want to throw a spanner in the works, but I dont mind doing red eyes. Of course only if I get my overnight allowance thrown in. I would be happy to do 4 red eyes in a row, because I can sleep anywhere/anytime! And I like the idea of coming home everyday, but getting paid like you are on a trip.

I guess I would be the only CC operating though if this came in!

[keeponsmiling]

I don't mind redeyes myself but not 4 in a row on min rest, with 1 day off and then get hit with a 4 day trip (5 sectors at that) with a 4 crew complement on an 800 etc etc etc.

[crewbus]

Oh no, that 5 sector day 4 day trip thing after the red eyes isnt part of the deal! Red eyes only thank you!

I would be happy to do 10 red eyes per month. That equals 20 work days, with my 10 days off. Plus 10 overnight allowances :ok:

Now thats a roster!

[keeponsmiling]

ok well if the 4 day trip (5 sector days) isn't part of it :) then I'm up for the red eyes too hahaha.

[bunchucker]

Hi all,

does anybody know when they might be hiring in MEL again?

Thanks

[keeponsmiling]

bunchucker - VB are always hiring so just apply online and hopefully they will pull your name out of the hat to go to an interview.

Goodluck :ok:

[bunchucker]

Thanks for that, have applied online and even been " blue starred " by someone in management, so guess I'll just wait :)

[ozflyboy]

Been a while since I have posted on here guys - just been sitting back taking it all in.....

I really hope that everyone reads this EBA VERY CAREFULLY......we don't want a repeat of last time - somehow an EBA that people weren't happy with was pushed through.

I agree with the last few posts - ccguy - please don't compare us to JQ or others - we DON'T want to go down that road - and certainly don't want their conditions - that's why we are at Virgin Blue! Let's KEEP TALKING about this - the more we do, the more that everyone will be aware of what's going on (even if a little embellished) - at least it gets people thinking about it!

I can't believe that management are saying that if we vote NO, we will have no other option - isn't the whole idea of NEGOTIATION, NEGOTIATING the agreement when we SEE IT (God knows when that will be....??) I have a friend who is an Ad Hoc Instructor - they don't know what their conditions will be in this new EBA - rumour is worse off in some scenarios......

To be honest, if things don't stack up (eg. no more avail days etc) I also would rather stick with what we have now.....I certainly don't want an overall pay cut!

Maybe we should follow the lead of our pilot comrades......

I really enjoy the job and don't want to lose out - I left a well paid profession to fly - I want to still keep flying and enjoy it!

Study the new EBA well guys and spread the word for all the crew to do the same....interesting times ahead!

Oz ;)

[smile]

4 red eyes in a row (BNE-DRW-BNE) with 13 hours rest each DAY (not night - its all DAY rest) - gee that's really safe isn't it!!!! So we should all just sit back and work these ridiculous sectors until someoone blows a slide and injures (god forbid kills) someone on the tarmac.


Keeponsmiling I think you hit the nail on the head with this one- we need to take this all back to safety. Wouldn't it be great if we could do all our hours in 10 days (ie 10 x 14 hour shifts) and then get the rest of the month off. BUT.... how safe would that be. OK so slight exaggeration but can you see my point. I can’t understand how working ourselves to the brink of collapse is a good thing. Doesn’t that just contradict the purpose of our job! To be effective crew we need to be alert. :zzz: :E

[__FA__]

Hey Guys,
Does anyone know when virgin blue are hiring next in brisbane.
Thanks!

[ells_bells]

Hi All!
I am about to move to Brisbane soon to start training VERY excited of course, however, was wondering if anyone could fill me in on what to expect of both life in Brisbane and of training! Any tips would be really fantastic! Thanks all, and hope everyone is having a fabulous day :)

[lowerlobe]

wirgin blew...Still waiting for your response to VB's on seatbelt signs?

What is VB stand on the crew working during the seat belt sign?

[wirgin blew]

Lowerlobe - VB's stand is "safety first" which basically leaves it up to the Captain, Supervisor and Crew to decide when it is unsafe to continue service. I have never felt the need to stop the service but that is just me. I have however not started the service on numerous occasions due to turbulence. The longest was about 90mins after takeoff from CNS which was a great way to start the day ;-).
EBA discussions continue as far as I am aware and Jun 07 was a date mentioned by a FAAA rep for those who were asking.
As for the GalleyFM we will see if these people are correct or not in a matter of due course. It is however hard to stay out of the discussions as this is what a lot of people are talking about at the moment which can only be a good thing. The more people talk about it the more people will read the document when it comes out.

:-)

[flitegirl]

Just an observation..... many of you are talking about "when the new EBA comes out" and "what will be in it" and that there's a lot of rumour and gossip.

I would have thought you should have a team of FAAA delegates negotiating with DJ management and keeping all members informed of the progress with regular communication. Then when it gets to it's final draft stage and your FAAA members make a preliminary vote on the new EBA, you are all well aware of what you is contained in the new document.

That's the way EBA negotiations usually happen. Just an observation.

[sinala1]

Flitegirl I am not sure if FAAA memebrs are recieving any communications from the union regarding the progress of different things to be included/excluded from the EBA, however non-members are getting nothing from anyone - the silence is deafening - so without fact, rumourmills will start... The last roadshows were back in July I think? Since then, we have not really seen or heard much about whats going on.

[flitegirl]

I have been through a number of EBA negotiations and as an outsider looking in, can I suggest you put pressure on the FAAA domestic division to keep you regularly updated. Do you have union reps and delegates among your flight attendant ranks? Put the pressure on them to keep you informed, and represent you collectively so that you have more power at the negotiation table. That's why you pay your fees. Please don't sit back and wait for them to present you with a draft that you haven't had any input into its content. Perhaps the FAAA domestic division need a little bit of proverbial wind up them, and perhaps your flight attendant reps aren't doing their jobs properly. With a company your size, I imagine you have fomally elected union officials in BNE and MEL... what have their roles been? Phone them, email them, whatever... but put the pressure on them to keep you informed.

[sinala1]

Flitegirl our negotiations have been going on for nearly 18 months from what I understand. At this point in time I am not an FAAA Member - I was, and I resigned my membership (for various reasons that I don't need to go into here - none of them have anything to do with the cost of the membership) so as I mentioned above I am unaware of what members are recieving from the company - but yes our elected delegates have worked incredibly hard with the crumbs they have been given to work with. The delegates even took a trip to Westjet in Canada to have a look first hand at Cronos, the new bidding/roster optimiser systham that we will be moving on to.

[flitegirl]

I understand what you're saying. However as an observer, it concerns me that so many people are making comments like "when the EBA comes out make sure you read it so you know what you're voting on". If the FAAA dometic division is representing you guys properly, you should all be well informed regarding the negotiations before you get to the voting stage. The draft EBA should be a confirmation of what you all already know. There should be no 'surprises'. At the moment it sounds like it's just a big mystery to a lot of you. I'm not at all being critical, just trying to help. It seems like you guys need to put pressure on the right people to get some information flowing. However it may be different for FAAA members.

[adam_ant]

I'm an FAAA member and I get eba newsletters - probably one a week. They either update us on where things are at - or they have MYTH Busters attached about galleyFM.

[flitegirl]

Thanks adam.... that answers the question then. I guess those who aren't "in the loop" are non members. SO.... you should all sign up! It's so important to be represented in the current aviation environment.

[sinala1]

It's so important to be represented in the current aviation environment

Agreed - however I had very valid reasons for resigning my membership from the FAAA, and make no apology for that... That said though I am considering rejoining, depending on the agreement that gets presented to us for consideration.

[RaverFlaver]

Hi guys,

Will current cabin crew be trained on the Embraer jets or are they going to recruit crew to operate only that jet?

RaverFlaver :O

[sinala1]

Raver I seem to recall an email that said we would be crosstrained on the EMB's

That said though, who knows what will happen now with the No vote on the pilots EBA?

[SKYNEWS]

Is anyone aware if and when Virgin Blue will operate the Embraers to Emerald in Queensland?

Will Virgin Blue base check in staff at the airport in Emerald as well?

[DJ_Fly_Boi]

Virgin Blue Employed Ground Staff are only in the 4 major Ports of BNE, SYD, MEL and ADL.

All other Ports are staffed by contract staff - such as Aerocare and Oceanic Aviation.

There is also a limited number of Casual staff in the major ports that are employed through Westaff.

If Virgin Blue were to fly to Emerald - the Ground Staff would be employed by a Ground Handling Company.

[PER210]

do you know if they hire for ground crew very often? and what bases?

[sinala1]

do you know if they hire for ground crew very often? and what bases?

Virgin Blue Employed Ground Staff are only in the 4 major Ports of BNE, SYD, MEL and ADL.

All other Ports are staffed by contract staff - such as Aerocare and Oceanic Aviation.


Check Virgin Blue website for when they are hiring

:}

[SKYNEWS]

thanks guys,

lets hope VB will fly to regional places in Embraers, and does anyone know if the height requirements will change for the Embraer aircraft?

[sinala1]

SkyNews nothing has been announced or confirmed, so anything on here is pretty much pure speculation - we have been told we will be crewing the Embraers, but even that may change. So, to answer your question, I would imagine that no the height requirements would not change as crew will be trained on both 737 and EMB, so would need to meet the height/reach requirements for the B737

[320subria]

In light of the changed working conditions effective 1 Feb due to the reduced crew compliment, what better working conditions/penalties does the FAAA intend to negotiate on behalf of cabin crew that are over and above the current EBA negotiations, as reduced crew compliment would not have been part of initial discussions. I urge those who are members of the FAAA to email the FAAA or the associated reps to put this point forward. :)

[Brisvegasboy]

I have heard from reliable sources that as of yesterday, negotiations between the FAAA and management have collapsed and management are NOT happy.......VERY interesting to see where things go from here.......


Flitegirl - Yes, the FAAA are negotiating on our behalf, however we just haven't received much information on the latest info for a while. Perhaps we need to hassle our reps (yes, we do have them - both in BNE and MEL!) a little more.......

[milbud]

I "TRIED" to speak to the FAAA to get info! Was quite curtly told that it wouldn't be appropriate to release content of intentions. But that they were definitely pushing our side of things...I am not impressed with the level of communication from FAAA at all. I and the membership are supposed to be driving the push with the FAAA doing the face to face negotiations. Appears to be going the same way that the Ground Crew EBA did last year! Ground crew were just suddenly told well we've done our best to get you the best deal we can and here it is, we suggest you support it... and that from my then, union!
I just wish things were more "open". Even if I don't like the content, if it is open and transparent to me I will at least feel that I can trust both the union and company management. It would certainly help to squash so much of the galley FM rumour mill.

[sinala1]

Agreed Milbud - more communications would go a long way!!!

Heard on the crewbus the other day that the company wanted us to do our training on days off :hmm: However FAAA said no, so company turned around and said "ok we will reduce it from 10 days off per 28 to 9 days off per 28"

GalleyFM or not well who knows?

Clear, open, detailed communications from company and/or union would be great. Why should we not be privvy to knowing what is being presented and what is being rejected/agreed???

[SKYNEWS]

Do cabin crew that work for Virgin Blue get breaks during the flight, if yes for how long?

[adam_ant]

Like I said before - I am getting info from the FAAA on a regular basis - infact one on Fri. I feel very much in the 'loop' as I call the BNE office often - the lady that works there is very helpful about EBA issues. I know that for awhile I wasn't getting anything until I gave them my home email - the company blocks emails from the FAAA so you can't get them at work and the comapny also banned newseltters from our drop files - so short of calling, my hotmail account is how I get info.

aa

[wirgin blew]

Do cabin crew that work for Virgin Blue get breaks during the flight, if yes for how long?

Yes we supposedly are entitled to a 20 min break free from duty. Which in my mind means sitting on the tarmac/break room somewhere with no guests in sight. What management mean is 20 min on a long flight sitting in the back galley while other crew restock carts, clean & check toilets, guests use toilets, face painting, etc. Which is total bs if you ask me. These managers make sure they have a meal break during the day without answering the phone or going to get a latte.

Please encourage your CS to put in sup payment forms. I know its not much but it is eventually going to get through to someone in HQ when they do the maths at the end of the year. This whole us and them thing is going to get much worse over the course of this year. BG can wave goodbye to VB's "culture" the way things are going at his airline. First you pi$$ off the guys who fly, then you do it to the staff who have the most face to face contact of the company. If Tiger gets there stuff off the ground you are going to have a few people submitting their resumes.

Hope your all having a great weekend.

[regionalguy]

re your discussions on lack of info from the company and faaa during eba negotiations. we had the same crticisms with ours last year (voted down by the way and are due to try again) but it was explained to us at the meetings that negotiating can be a lot like playing a game of cards and to release the details of negotiations as they happen is a bit like showing your hand at the card table. perhaps not the best analogy but i got the picture.

once it was all finished we were given the eba to read and then we had meetings to have the details explained and newsletters to clarify what was being offered.

i'm sure getting the info as it happened wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference, you've got to read the eba, ask questions and then make up your own mind. although i must admit it was frustrating not knowing what was going on.

[SKYNEWS]

Wirgin Blew thank you kindly for your answer.

[KittyBlue]

Finally the EBA has been completed, earlier today confirmation was received and the details and information will be provided to the cabin crew and associated people over the next little bit. As for what is in it, it has not be published, so it would be a great idea to read the proposed EBA first in full and to catch up with the forums that will be offered to explain the document fully.

May I stress you read the information and question the details provided so you can make an inform descision, away from those who care to use
'I heard' than factual documented information.

Toodles........

[adam_ant]

Thanks Kitty - finally! I can't wait to read it! I hope they provide lots of different times for forums so we can fit them in around our rosters.

aa xoxo

[KittyBlue]

An email has been sent out to confirm to crew the EBA is completed. Info is to be sent over the next two weeks, paper copy, dvd explanation, roadshows details will be posted directly to your residence.

:)

[FOXPRESIDENT]

This thread has been really interesting as im I'm flying Virgin Blue in two weeks. 10am flight from SYD > Cairns thurs 1st march and miday return on 5th. I'm from Britain... i'l be looking forward to it.

Is it a good service the route does anyone know?

Is there any tv on board? I wanted to use my mp3 player but i don't think you can you.

[wirgin blew]

FOXPRESIDENT - you can listen to mp3 after the seat belt sign is switched off. As for TV if you are lucky you might get one of the few (3) aircraft that has live to air tv onboard ($6).

Hope you have a good time in CNS. I would recommend the Woolshed or Gilligans for a bit of night time action.

[FOXPRESIDENT]

hey thanks for this its appreciated!

I hope we get live tv that would be brilliant.

Is any crew flying on my aircraft - Its a 10am dep from Sydney and 12 noon departure from Cairns.

I'm quite interested in know about these little jokes - they should be good!

[sinala1]

We now have 7 Live2Air aircraft, with 1 being fitted out each week :ok:

[320subria]

Does anyone know about increasing the capacity on the 800 to 189seats? According to the press release today on VB's website new 800's to be delivered will have the flexibility to increase seating by 5 % to 189 seats. What will that make the seat pitch 28/29"?. I cant see those business pax who fly and pay $200/$300 o/w for a flexible fare being impressed by even less leg room. If Jetblue (a highly successfull airline and a low cost carrier at that in USA), can make money, providing low fares and has a seat pitch of 36" (only 150 seats on the A320), Virgin should take a leaf out of its book. The journey isn't only about good service, but comfort and having flown on Ryanair with 189 seats there is nothing comfortable about sitting inside their tin cans!!!

[resboy]

I also read that press release and found the 189 seats on an -800 very interesting indeed from a Cabin Crew perspective.

Given that DJ are now able to operate the -800 with only 4 crew an extra 9 or 12 pax raises some important questions.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but CASA granted DJ the reduced crew exemption not on the basis of a 1:50 ratio (otherwise they could have gone 3 crew on the -700), but on the basis that on the -800 all 4 primary exits were still covered by crew and overwing passengers received a more detailed pre-departure briefing.

Does this exemption still hold when the aircraft has 189 pax? If you were to operate with only 4 crew on a 189 seat -800 you would effectively be TWO crew members down as under normal CASA regulations of the 1:36 ratio 6 crew would be required to operate with 189 pax. := Where does one draw the line in the sand?

Very clever work on DJ's behalf perhaps? Get a special approval to operate with less crew and then subsequently increase the seating config. Is this possible!?!? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[wirgin blew]

Has anyone heard the rumour going round that 120 CC have resigned since Christmas? I have noticed less people in my drop file but it does sound like a lot of people are unhappy with the reduced crew compliment. Are they going to Emirates, MAM, Jetstar or Tiger?
Any gos would be appreciated.

[sinala1]

I also read that press release and found the 189 seats on an -800

:eek:

I just read that too.....

Let me do some digging, will get some info

[wirgin blew]

Virgin Blue's new Boeing 737-800 aircraft will be typically configured with a one class 177-180 seat layout, with ability to increase seat capacity by over 5% up to a 189 seat configuration and deploy these aircraft on price sensitive or leisure routes.


How do you fit in the extra 9 seats with current seat pitch at 31-33 inches. I would hate to be paxing on one of those with maybe only 29 inches.

I imagine the leisure routes they are talking about would be OOL. Say 9x$200 is an extra $1800 which would help contribute to our new staff bonus scheme.

:ok:

[sinala1]

Wirgin Blew my sarcasm detector is coming up with an inconclusive result to your last post re the $1800 making a good contribution to the staff bonus scheme - I am hoping its U/S, and you were being quite sarcastic! lol

Interesting to note too, the 81% increase in 6 month NET profit figures to over $124 Million - should I look forward to seeing some of that in our EBA which I believe is due to arrive in our mailboxes within the next week? :}

[wirgin blew]

You have to have a little at the moment. There is such a lot of things going on at the moment at HQ -

TC EBA
CC EBA
Live to Air rollout
Embraer Operation
Longhaul Operation
SYD SH Base???
SYD LH Base???
LCC Operation

Surely they could just focus on 1 or 2 of the above mentioned things, get that sorted then move on?
:rolleyes:

[milbud]

Hi Resboy, the new Ratio is indeed 1:50 and that is the reasoning for 4 crew on our 800's, BUT the requirement is still that there is one crew member per "Door" on the aircraft. Hence the 700 series still has 4 crew as well !!!
It's easy for the information to get mudled as I personally haven't yet seen an official document laying out the change come out from CASA, they indicated that they would be sending out a summary of info sheet to all Cabin Crew registered in Australia to ensure that the new requirements are communicated directly to us and not through company channels. Seems they don't totally trust the airlines to give untainted statements, suprisingly (Sinala, for you broken sarcasm meter, that one was dripping!)

Wirgin blew, "the gos" from a Mel Mgmnt member is that Jan/Feb resignations were sginificantly lower than anticipated,(probably with everyone getting there christmas credit card bill!). Someone I work with and is a mate at a 2nd job of mine is a CSM for J* and has just done a half day course on the changes for the reduced crew ops on A320. So they are following suit.

Sinala1, have a chat to ops about Emb trg, one of them told me last night that the reason so many of us are sitting on our hands on AVL/APT is changes being made to prepare for taking crew off line from APR to start the trg. Going to be too, only five months to train us all before the first two come on line!
I know there are probs at VB but it is still an exciting time for us, I see they are calling for more crew again, internal / external. And BG did confirm at SYD to crew there that we would have first dibs on any international jobs. He said they are trying to work out a secondment system too, so you can do perhaps 6month long haul / 6 month domestic or similar. Great for those who want variety.

Does anyone else think like me? that we will be loosing that extra leg room in the 1DEF seats? nine more sounds like it will be a tight squeeze. At least it might stop people squeezing out and taking over the aisle on those holiday/leisure routes. They will need a shoe horn to get out of their seat.

[320subria]

Milbud :

Not sure if you have seen this link to the CASA exemption, I have posted below. Interesting it also refers to the 800 having a maximum number of seats of 189. Yes I think you will need a shoe horn to get out of your seat with the ridiculous seat pitch, not sure if VB's management actually fly that often in a seat other than blue zone where most of the guests sit, the whole Virgin Blue experience is going to get a whole lot more uncomfortable (if thats possible). I know Mr Godfrey has repeatedly stated there is no case for business class seating, but a lot of guests who travel on busines with VB have stated they would be happy to pay an extra $300 or $400 to travel and work in comfort. But who am I to argue, I just talk to lots of business people who travel with VB everyday.

http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2006/CASA321.pdf

[sinala1]

Milbud mate I am going to disagree with you re the change of the pax ratio from 1:36 to 1:50 - that has not yet happened, we can only operate the B738 with 4 crew due to the exemption CASA granted us - and that exemption refers only to the B737-800 series aircraft.

As far as the 189 pax goes, I predict it will mean removing one toilet from the rear :hmm: because 9 extra pax is a row and a half...

Lets not forget the 5% extra on top of that for infants too - I think with a full pax load it will mean a limit of 9 infants (if I recall correctly) - 198 pax on a 737 with 4 crew :(

Interesting re the EMB training! Although I would have thought that until the Tech Crew EBA is signed off, the implementation of the EMB is going to be somewhat delayed - unless it is decided sooner rather than later that the EMB flying will go to a separate company employing pilots on AWA's? :confused:

The announcement of the B777 is a great thing (although I wont full believe it until the order is signed - Airbus may still yet come in with an offer to undercut Boeing) and a good step forward for the International project. Secondment would be great for those who do want a variation of flying - although me personally its going to be full time all the way! The big question is though - what will the terms and conditions of international flying be? Please please please don't let them be a step down $$ and lifestyle (although I do know from experience long haul is a totally different lifestyle to short haul) wise from what we have now - that would be soul destroying :{

Any ideas on when the EBA is going to be delivered? Would have to be any day now I would imagine?

[PER210]

when they start the american flights is it going to be similar to domestic flying (like buy your own means, buy your own ent etc..) or will this be provided?
Cheers

[resboy]

Thanks for that link 320

Very interesting and I think it answers my question...

"Schedule 1 Aircraft
Australian registered Boeing 737-800 series with a type data certificate that provides for a maximum seating capacity of 189."

the document then goes on to say ...

"Direction
The operator may operate an aircraft mentioned in schedule 1 with 4 cabin attendants"

So an aircraft with 189 seats which under normal CASA regulations would have 6 flight attendants can operate with 4 :(

[milbud]

Heya Sinala1, can see where my last post was a tad 'ambiguous' in the first line. I should have written that the proposed new ratio, understanding that the current ops at DJ are an exemption. When I spoke with Richard, I believe surname Talbot? at the last aviation safety seminar I attended, he stated that the new ratio would still require 1 per door on aircraft with a seating capacity over XXX. The number of seats escapes me. 136 came to mind! but that could be a furphy of my ageing memory:ooh: He stressed that this was a clear difference between our move to 1:50 in Aus as compared to NZ.
I too was amazed at the nearness of EMB trg, again as you say with the 'up in the air' nature of the Tech crew EBA.
Resboy, the reference to 189 is indeed of note. It will be interesting to see though if they do keep the 'extra' seating to the purely leisure routes. This would seemingly preclude the sardine'ing of MEL-SYD sectors.
I'm not sure that I agree with the idea of business seating...so many people say they make the move, or are made to move to DJ because companies are trying to cut the bottom line. However, there was a time that there would Never be a lounge or rewards program too! I never say never any more at DJ.
As for the future Sinala with 777's crew etc... like you, I will wait until i'm on it to be sure of anything!
No sign of my EBA yet matey, I just hope I get long enough to study it carefully and ask vast numbers of questions before having to vote on it.

[crewbus]

Exciting times ahead with new EBAs, International etc...

Totally off the topic, does anyone know why most other airlines in the world get ID90s on most of the world's airlines, whereas at Virgin Blue we only get a few?

And I don't mean 'only' in an ungrateful way, because I think as far as domestic goes our benefits are very generous. But wouldn't it be nice to have a choice of all different airlines....

Any thoughts folks?

[sinala1]

Crewbus: Its something to do with an association we are not part of - I think its IATA. If we were an IATA airline, we would issue & accept paper tickets, as well as ZED (zonal employee discount) fares for staff.

[crewbus]

I wonder if the airline would consider joining IATA?

Considering we have association with different international carriers, I'm sure the airline would qualify.

Of course I am sure there is more to it than that ;)

By the way, our staff travel department do a fantastic job :ok:

[wirgin blew]

01 Mar 07 EBA Package posted to Cabin Crew member’s homes
02 Mar 07 EBA Package available on Virgin Blue intranet and FAAA internet website
12-19 Mar 07 Roadshows - Group Sessions (see timetable below)
18-25 Mar 07 Crew Room Briefings - Small Groups & Individual Sessions - 7am to 7pm
21 Mar 07 Vote Opens
30 Mar 07 Vote Closes
ROADSHOW TIMETABLE
MELBOURNE Training Rooms 1 & 2 - Level 2
Date: Monday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
12 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Tuesday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
13 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
BRISBANE Albion Room - Level 1
Date: Thursday Session Times: 0830 to 1000
15 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
Date: Friday Session Times: 1000 to 1130
16 Mar 07 1400 to 1530
SYDNEY Holiday Inn - Potts Point
Date: Monday Session Time: 1800 to 2030
19 Mar 07
---
Bring it on :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Brisvegasboy]

I know we don't have concrete info for a few days, however let's get the ball rolling with some fairly firm rumour mill stuff.......

All well and good to do a 12 hour day if you are paxing a sector (as we do now) or it's ONE sector (ie Long Haul) HOWEVER, no matter what the company says about extra days off (because believe me - you won't be able to basically write your own roster), I for one, do NOT want to operate 12 hours - 5 sector days, BNE-DRW returns - operating all the way etc etc. Just think about operating another few hours when you sign off on a 9 hr 45 day in the next few weeks - aaahh!!

Last EBA, the company added only 15mins to our operating duty time (9 hrs 30 mins became 9 hrs 45 mins) and that allowed an extra sector to be added on - let's not fall into this trap again!! The extra hours could easily see crew operate back to home base - less overnights - no thanks.

The overtime issue will be interesting to see....let's fight to keep our daily rate (ie. if you work over 9 hrs you are entitled to it) I mean, what other job don't you earn a daily rate of overtime in?? Think about it guys, when are we EVER rostered over 140 hrs a month?? So bye, bye overtime......If it comes out on the new EBA as a huge hourly rate (apparently $50ish) don't be fooled by the big bucks - I like my quite substantial daily overtime rate now.....

Will be interesting to see what becomes of our Avail days - they are quite a nice money spinner also - we don't want to lose them as they are now!
Have heard that Ad-Hoc Instructors will actually earn less for certain patterns of days they train - how rediculous. This may only apply to a small percentage but don't forget if that is a position you would like to be in the future, you need to fight for better conditions in that area now!

Clearly, the company will try and sell this on a number of levels - part time being a big one that many crew will have tunnel vision viewing on.

Management must have room to move on this - let's say NO and negotiate on the stuff we don't like - hopefully enough crew won't just hear one side and say yes to it.

Interesting to see what out pilot mates said about theirs.........

Thoughts guys??

BVB:\

[DJTibby]

I currently work 12 hour days. I am physically unable to walk at the end of it, they are so exhasting. You find yourself sleeping and working and that's it. Please NEVER accept anything that requires 12 hours, it's simply not worth it.

[sinala1]

I don't want to say too much until I actually read the document and fully understand it, but based on the stuff presented at the forums etc 12 hour day trips are a possibility. 4 sector BNE-MEL anyone?

With the reduction of crew on the -800 saving over $20 Million over the life of the agreement; the increase of seats on some -800s to 189 (and still operating at only 4 crew - even though, as mentioned above, the standard CASA requirement would have been for 6); the reduction of overnights; and the decrease in overnight payments, hotel costs and transport costs - there is going to want to be a lot of give to counter all the take!

A serious question I pose is WHY is it necessary to brand the document in glossy images and paper/color scheme etc, and include a dvd as well - surely that $$ could be much better spent (for eg put into the salary kitty, or put towards giving us a newer more professional uniform!). The document should sell itself, it shouldnt need a sales campaign. Did you see the tech crew EBA coming out with any of this kind of stuff?

[flytheplanemay]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to do 12 hour days.

I believe that companies like to first present the 'harshest' situation in the first draft of an EBA. After all, it is about negotiating. I would never vote yes to the first offer thrown at me, no matter how fair and reasonable it may seem. Because I know that if it gets rejected, they will then come back with a better offer ie. reduce the hours required before we get paid overtime, reduce the maximum hours per day, increase pay just a little bit more... Get my drift?

[Hostee]

Erm.... GalleyFM is saying that there is NO negotiating.... there will only be this one EBA.... if we vote NO we stay on the current one.... But hey... that is only GALLEY FM!!! And SO many rumours are flying around at the moment (pardon the pun).

I predict interesting times ahead with this EBA stuff.... especially as it was announced on the news that Virgin pilots are considering strike action!

Got the funniest text from someone today..... GalleyFM (again) is that Virgin has offered Lisa Roberston a job!! (QF mile-high flighty)
That would certainly put a new spin on the saying "if only you got Virgin Blue service everywhere". Haha.

[crewbus]

Galley FM, where would we be without it? ;)

Of course management are trying to put out the 'take this because it wont get any better' They know they are putting out an EBA that is more in their favour than ours. I think it would be silly to vote yes to the first thing offered. But that is my thought and everyone is entitled to decide on what would be best for them.

My theory is, if it gets rejected, they can either 1) keep us on the current one we have, which gives us many overnights and available days which is a nice little added extra in our pay, or 2) listen and negotiate with us on the one they are sending out this week.

I for one am looking forward to a little light reading later on in the week :ok:

[smile]

With the reduction of crew on the -800 saving over $20 Million over the life of the agreement; the increase of seats on some -800s to 189 (and still operating at only 4 crew - even though, as mentioned above, the standard CASA requirement would have been for 6); the reduction of overnights; and the decrease in overnight payments, hotel costs and transport costs - there is going to want to be a lot of give to counter all the take!


Not to mention savings with sick leave, annual leave and long service leave entitlements, and superannuation.

I would like to know where our union was when this 4 crew on an 800 was presented.

[wirgin blew]

From what I can gather from the FAAA, other members and delegates have said that they dont mind the new system so unless CASA changes there mind it is here to stay.
I noticed in the CCON's it now says that you can delay departure because the overwing brief hasnt been done, only to move pax into the exit rows. So what happens if you have to move someone out whilst the aircraft is moving back out of the bay and your supposed to be arming your door. What would the company do if whilst you were moving pax around they fell and injured themselves???
I would also like to know why it is safe for R2 to move to the overwing whilst the aircraft is coming into the bay, what would the company do if R2 was injured if the aircraft had to stop suddenly short of the bay???
"Safety First"...I have my doubts.

[sebby]

Although this doesnt justify someone being injured atleast in that circumstance the company will take full responsibility for the injury and any sick time/ possible insurance claim related to the injury as they had given them the opportunity to be released from their seats.

The same risk applies to performing a safety demonstration whilst the aircraft is in taxi. I have fallen over once, I wasnt injured (a part from my dignity!) but I did write a report and the company backed me completely as I had permission from the command to be out of my seat, however an incident once occured where a passenger was up during taxi in and fell over hurting his arm. The arrival PA had already been made advising pax to remain seated until the seatbelt sign was switched off and the passenger had no leg to stand on as far as making a claim against the airline as he had disobeyed Civil Aviation Law.

It must be very frustrating for passengers though, they havent been exposed to everything most of us have in training and being out online and all they see is us getting up and possibly having no regard for the rules they have to follow.

[chickrefueller]

I was after some info about working conditions at VB. I have been flying overseas with an international carrier and have just secured a CC position at VB based in Brisbane. I was told that there are around 10-15 overnights a month, although I was wondering how many days off you average a month? do you bid on a line? bid on days off? is there a system to swap or any flexibility etc? do you recieve a roster or bid on flights to make your own?? The company I previously worked for was fairly flexible...we worked a lot, but made our own roster and days off...just trying to understand what VB might like to work for....any info would be fantastic and hugely appreciated! :)

[sinala1]

Hmm no EBA in todays mail - and nothing on the FAAA website either? Does anyone know whats going on?

[wirgin blew]

The FAAA hasnt updated the VB part of the website since the 8th NOV 06. I wonder if they remember how.

:hmm:

[sinala1]

EBA Now live on the intranet...

So, whats the thoughts?

[KittyBlue]

The Eba is available on the intranet with a few tools to help understand all. The packs will sent via mail today the 2nd March.

I have skimmed over the details of the 37 page document.... I believe its not a bad piece of work. Less grey and more black and white. Of course with these things you need be able to accept change, so try not to compare the previous to the proposed eba.

ps. Its easy to read..


and I will read it again probably 100 times more to confirm what I am reading.

[notalwayssunny]

At first glance it is much better than rumours had it. I see 10 days off per 28 day roster and I personally like 6.7.2. Maternity Leave has increased and they are offering paternity leave as well. So far so good.

[sinala1]

Notalwayssunny - Welcome to pprune, I see thats your first post :ok: Paternity leave was always there - it has been increased from 1 to 2 weeks in this document.

Right now, after reading the eba and the FAQ's, I have already decided which way I am voting - based on a very large number of reasons - but am going to wait until the EBA roadshows etc before making the final 100% decision

so try not to compare the previous to the proposed eba.

I am going to disagree wholeheartedly with that statement - its imperative that you do compare what we have now versus what the new eba proposes, otherwise you wont be able to make an educated vote!

[notalwayssunny]

Hi! I guess an increase it's better than a decrease in benefits. Based on what I read I think I am pretty clear which way I'm voting as well. As for comparing the EBA's, I think that what KittyBlue is trying to say is that this one is based on rather different systems and so it might be a good idea to consider and asses them independently. I look forward to the roadshows, I am sure they will answer a lot of our questions. :)

[wirgin blew]

Just remember that at the roadshows they will be giving the VB line on things and not the reality of them.
Example 1 - you call in sick on day 5 of 6 and then they draft you on your day off. You think you are now working 7 in a row when in fact your 6 in a row was reset by your sick day.
Example 2 - you finish in BNE due to bad weather in OOL they drive you down to OOL in a mini van the next day then add that as a paxing sector making your day 11h45m.
These arent the best examples but if the company sees a way to exploit anything they will. So please read the document well and try and twist it every way you possibly can before you agree to it.

I know I will have it soon to look at myself but can anyone tell me if it has in writing the performance bonus that BG mentioned in his mid year report.

[sinala1]

Wirgin to answer your question I am not entirely sure.. there is reference to a productivity bonus, but its a flat 2%. The bonus that BG referred to was a MINIMUM 2%, possibly more. I think they are separate things - this would have been written in to the EBA some time ago... at least I think so anyway - its one of the things we can ask at the forums I guess!

[KittyBlue]

Wirginblue, you seem to see the company as a user to an extreme way.
Your example 1 is logical in the way that if your sick would you not start again day 1 anyway, as you have rested?? Like if you were on a reassignable. I'd advise you to ready the document before you comment because there are many new features re: rest periods etc that you have not read about in the document.

Notalways sunny understood my comment about comparing. Yes use the information we have learnt through the years to make a judgement thou there are new options included in this that we have not been exposed to.

Please read the document carefully before commenting, no different than gossip. Funny enough the FAQ sheet says not to listen to gossip and if youdont know the answer ask someone who knows the answers. There seems to be a lot of mistrust in some circles, yes some are very valid and I believe this eba may help us get back some control.

My thoughts, been here for many years and seen alot.

[KittyBlue]

BG comment about bonus has been added in to the EBA.

4.1.5 Productivity Payment
a. In addition to the salary increases set out in this Agreement, you will be paid a productivity payment in the amount of 2.0% calculated on your base salary at the time it is paid. This will be paid to Cabin Crew and Cabin
Supervisors.


.

[sinala1]

Kittyblue I think Wirgin Blew's point was moreso we have to look at the potential worst-case scenario, because it can/will happen from time to time - and if it does, and people have voted Yes for the agreement, then they have no right to complain if it happens to them.

Thats the way I interpreted it anyway!

I have a *lot* more to contribute to this discussion - significantly more - but am not entirely convinced that this is, right now, the best place for me to do so










A rose by any other name; book/cover................ etc etc

[smile]

I have just had my first look at the eba. OH MY GOD:mad: :mad: are they kidding..................

[smile]

if your sick would you not start again day 1 anyway, as you have rested

Maybe we need to define the word "rest" here. And exactly why the crew member needed to go sick in the first place.

I don't consider myself very rested if I have spent the day throwing up, or on the loo with gastro (from cleaning the toilets). Or perhaps I haven't gotten enough sleep because I have spent the night blowing my runny nose (thanks to our passengers), or couldn't get comfortable because my back is playing up (due to the overloaded carts we have to lug up and down the aisle).

Then I get drafted and have to work another 5 or 6 days in a row. Kitty blue if you have been here as long as you say, I am absoloutly shocked that you find this acceptable. (You sound a little more like management talking that a cabin crew member:E )

[737NG_Girl]

hmmmmmmmmm interesting reading!!!!! Less chance of this getting voted up than there is of Ralph Fiennes flying qantas ever again :E


Bring it on, people http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/box2.gif

[ak3141]

Maybe we need to define the word "rest" here. And exactly why the crew member needed to go sick in the first place.Becoming reassignable after being sick for 1 day and being faced with the prospect of having another 6 days before another DDO rolls around does not sound like an improvement to me. An improvement would be a credit of a full average VB working day of 7hrs for a sick day and not 5.5hrs.

I voted in a new EBA in a previous job and also some minor changes. On both occasions, the changes improved working conditions and remuneration. There seems to be a lot of mistrust within VB and it isn't hard to see why when the current EBA allows a minimum rest of 10 hours away from home base, 9.5 hour days without a 20 minute uninterrupted break (good luck keeping track of those supp forms being lodged and receipt of those penalty payments), 6 days on and 1 day off, and sick days only being worth 5.5 duty hours when the average working day is 7hrs (140hrs/20 working days). Compare this to a normal 8 hour day with a 1 hour lunch break and a FULL day credited when you call in sick and well.. :=

The only advice I can offer is to read the EBA carefully before you vote and ask questions if you don't understand certain points - in fact, ask several people to get different perspectives about these points. A good vote is an educated vote and comparing both EBAs is a wise move as this is a voting chance to ensure that your lifestyle, conditions of employment, and remuneration are improving and not deteriorating. Otherwise, it is just a continuation of the race to the bottom - the race to see which airline can pay their cabin crew the least.

On a side note, my understanding of the productivity bonus was that it would be implemented independently from the new EBA, irrespective whether it was voted in or not. However, don't quote me on this one as it may very well be a deal sweetener but is $1,000 (2% on a BASE salary of $50k) enough to sweeten the deal for most? :suspect:

[screwedovercrew]

hmmmm very interesting atm....
ive heard nothing good about this eba since yesterday... even as i was leaving the crew room and on msn last night from cs friends....
hmmm kitty blue you do sound a little like management.. or someone that has never flown before... and we all know management watch us in here like hawks in here...
is this eba going to stop vb giving me a 4 day trip,one day off,another 4 day trip then how generous 2 days off and all early sign on's...if it does ill consider voteing it cause my body just cant take this atm....
if it doesnt.... theres going to be alot of sick crew... and whats this i hear something about longer days and more than 4 day trip?:sad:

[notalwayssunny]

I wonder why some people suggest Kittyblue is VB management. Is being open to change and new challenges all that bad? I think that before we get all negative we should logically look at all the positives and negatives points in this new EBA. For example, I hear all the time people who want to go part time and expectant mothers wishing they had more maternity leave. Wouldn't these people look at the new EBA with more favourable eyes? Other people want an improved PBS and more flexibility...

[ak3141]

I think that before we get all negative we should logically look at all the positives and negatives points in this new EBA.

These are wise words. Look at the EBA as a whole and then compare it to the current EBA and decide whether there is an improvement or not..

Then vote :E

[smile]

Notalwayssunny,

Increased maternity leave seems to be the only thing you bring up that is good about the proposed EBA. As someone who can speak from experience here I don't neccessarily think that increased maternity leave is such a deal maker. Not all of us can afford to take so much time off work and live with only one income coming into the home.

Being guaranteed part time is a much sweeter prospect. You are then able to balance contributing financially to the home economy as well as being there and raising your new baby.

So if increased maternity/ paternity is all this EBA is about then I think the company has missed it mark- big time.

[notalwayssunny]

Overall I think it isn't as bad as some people are trying to say it is. I guess over many years in the workforce I gained a little perspective. I like the flexibility this new EBA would offer, and I'm not concerned over the sick leave issue. My experience accessing leave has been positive; however I understand some people use more leave than others and this is why they might look at the sick leave issue with a little apprehension. I also understand, as I have experienced previously, that incorporating regional flying requires different work rules. The bottom line is that I would be working an acceptable number of hours, with 10 days off a month and I might even get the opportunity to have more days off etc.

[sinala1]

acceptable number of hours

Acceptable to who?

12 Hour 4 sector days are not acceptable to me, no matter which way I look at it - yes you can "bid" to avoid them, but there is no reference in the EBA to "80% over 3 months" satisfaction of the PBS - so the Bid to avoid argument holds no water whatsoever.

130 hours per 28 days is fine, even though it says we can be rostered up to 135 - and, if I read this correctly (am going to check it again) overtime can be forced on you, up to 140 hours per month :suspect:

[notalwayssunny]

The way I look at it is: How many times in a month can I work 12 hour days before I run out of hours? 10.6, so the worst case scenario would be working 10 1/2 days. I seriusly don't think that every trip in a roster will be 12 hour days. I will need to confirm this, but I think that if one does a split shift the break would count as hours. So one might just do 2 sectors in a 12 hour shift, but as I said this is one for the roadshow.

[not smiling]

OMG - The eba, not happy at all. I have only found 1 good thing about it so far and thats C/S rates on the ground after 28 weeks pregnant not the admin wage - as far as everything else!!! Questionable.:ugh: I would rather stay on the old eba - better the devil you know. Everything that has previously been discussed with CCDM and the union reps aren't in the new one. Very disappointed.

[FOXPRESIDENT]

Well i'm in Cairns...and flew down with Virgin Blue like i said I was going to.

the supervisor was a comedian... did all the jokes...but went to far at one point!!

Was ok to an extent, but they should tone it down.

[wirgin blew]

I have just read the new EBA and can tell you already that I have at least a couple of pages for the FAAA to read and if I feel comfortable I might even talk to my DM about it. I think however I wont be going to the forums as I dont want to get stood down like a certain pilot for expressing my opinion.
They talk of fatigue management on the one hand then roster us up to 14 hours. They give us 12 hours rest at home. 10.5 hours before being paid overtime. I also read into the CAP371 table the possibility of MEL-DRW-MEL with one crew , the duty time of 10.35 ( thats 5 minutes overtime and a measly dinner allowance instead of the $90 we get now). MEL-PER-MEL would also be possible and they will be taking away half of the current allowance for this trip as well.
The allowances are less than what TC get even though we stay at the same hotel??? Does the ATO discriminate against us or is this another way for the company to save money through CC ignorance.
Am I wrong in thinking that this document hasnt been finished. Surely there is much more work to be done before the majority will agree.
--
Kittyblue I do have little faith in the company because they just reduced the crew compliment which is a productivity increase from our department of surely between 10 and 20%. These new work rules are going to further increase productivity by who knows how much. Surely we are entitled to stick our hands out and ask for some of this when profits have returned to record highs. A 3% pay rise is just under CPI so surely a 5% increase + 2% profit share would be more like what we should be getting??? Also as they are still turning over a large amount of CC shouldnt they be looking to fix the EBA so as to try and retain some of these people. Dont managment want to reduce sick leave. I am sure that they above mentioned flights will see a further increase in sick leave.
--
I know I can work under the new rules if they get voted in but we have a chance to change things now instead of complaining about them for the next 5 years. So once again I implore everyone to read this document and ask questions so that you understand exactly what other CC & CS's are talking about.

[wirgin blew]

Sinala1 - 130 hours per 28 days is fine, even though it says we can be rostered up to 135 - and, if I read this correctly (am going to check it again) overtime can be forced on you, up to 140 hours per month
Nice isnt it. There also saying that its up to the individual to monitor this and let the company know if they have gone over and dont want to do any more. I may have also read that if they cant get anyone to do your remaining hours then you have to do it.
Also what do people interpret about this training credit hours thing.
:suspect: :suspect: :suspect:

[not smiling]

Whats flying down with VB got to do with the EBA?

[not smiling]

I think however I wont be going to the forums as I dont want to get stood down like a certain pilot for expressing my opinion.

____________________________________________________________ _

I'm also worried about as well. A few of my friends have already started taking notes to direct to the FAAA and the company and I will too - but I really don't know if I want to be stood down for asking questions about my future work rules! Its a shame really because almost 7 years ago this isn't what I signed up for - yes I can always leave "but it will get better"!

The extension of MAT Leave - well really it is only an extension of 3 months eg; on our current EBA we get 12 months with 3 months as an emergency extension (not advertised but avaliable) - while speaking to the powers to be during this whole situation it was indicated that it would be 2 years as well as a doubling of the paid MAT leave for both full and parttime- which hasn't happened. Okay it doesn't really effect many males out there but I haven't gotten any further with the reading.......

Pay rise! Once again with talks with the powers to be - it was more than 3% in the begining. I don't know about anyother C/S out there but I physically can't work any harder than I am already working. 8% is over the life of the EBA! You do the math, it may be early but I'm still feeling disappointed. Isn't the CPI 3.8% or has it come down drastically in the last few weeks.

[smile]

Wirgin Blue- whilst you are looking at the duty hour limitations have a look at clause 6.4.4.

Correct me if I am reading this wrong, but it looks to me tht any training duties we do (EP's and CRM and Rirst Aid etc) are not included in our duty hours for the month. - They call it 'Additional (non - credit) Training' .

So you can do your 135 flying/standby hours for the roster and then also be rostered EP's and CRM on top of that. :mad: :mad:

Fatigue Management my butt!!!:E

[ak3141]

Your FAAA Virgin Blue Team members are confident that the outcomes negotiated meet the various needs of Cabin Crew and strongly recommend that you vote in favour of the Agreement presented.

I found the above on the FAAA (http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/news.asp?id=844) website and find it quite disturbing. I thought they were supposed to represent our best interests, not use subtle coercion to sway votes. Do they really think that this is the best we can get?? :ugh:

Don't believe the hype. If this doesn't get voted in, then they'll have to come up with something better and we will remain on the same conditions we're on at the moment - which are much better than what is being proposed!

[keeponsmiling]

Can someone please tell me exactly where to find the new eba on the intranet as I don't want to wait anymore for it to arrive in the mail. is it under the resource centre???

[crewbus]

Hi everyone

I still havent seen the EBA! Can someone please give me a run down?

Like soneone else said previously in this post, are they going to guarantee the 80% success rate of the bidding system?

None of us have seen this bidding system before, so I want some sort of guarantee that it is going to work the way the company are sugar coating it. I think the success of this EBA is going to depend on how good the bidding system is. I dont want to vote for something that is 'supposed' to be fantastic.

What is the general feeling folks?

[crewbus]

Sorry guys, I cant seem to find the EBA on the FAAA website. I thought it was supposed to be posted there on Friday.

Anyone know where to find it?

Thanks

[smile]

Hey guys,
the EBA hasn't seemed to make it onto the FAAA website. And as for the company Intranet- I could access it yesterday morning, but that link seems to have gone missing. :ugh:

[Brisvegasboy]

I cannot seem to find the EBA anywhere on the intranet or the FAAA site - please let us know where it can be found (clearly, it is there somewhere as many have seen it already).

I wholehartedly agree that kittyblue and notalwayssunny are possibly management (although their spelling and grammar leaves alot to be desired - then again, maybe that was intentional.....!)

I personally can't wait to get my hands on this thing - we all need to pick it apart and let management know what we don't like. There sounds as if there are so many things that the FAAA and management didn't listen to when we listed what WE wanted in this document. I would be extremely annoyed if a few extra part-time positions and some extra mat leave benefits got an overall poor document voted through........careful guys!!!!!

bvb:}

[not smiling]

Exactly Brisvegasboy, my worry exactly. Words like endevour and maybe mean - never or if you are lucky.

Speaking with some Flight Crew they seem to be very interested in the DVD coming out! I am too on that note, wondering if everything will be explained not just the "good" bits - which I am yet to find. They seem to think that it is a bit of interesting marketing as they have an opionion that some crew won't read the document as they may assume that the DVD has it all in there. Time will tell, hopefully by Monday's or Tuesday's mail.

[TightSlot]

wholehartedly agree that kittyblue and notalwayssunny are possibly management (although their spelling and grammar leaves alot to be desired - then again, maybe that was intentional.....!)

This is an anonymous forum. You have no idea of the true status of anybody posting here and should not speculate. It is unwise to accuse somebody of being something, just because they take a different view to yourself: It also dilutes your own argument since you are choosing to play the player rather than the ball. The same holds true for spelling and grammar - they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Finally, it is unwise to accuse somebody else of poor grammar when your own post includes a serious grammatical error (spelling and grammar are plural, not singular)

[crewbus]

I agree 'not smiling' words 'will endeavour' and 'where possible' remind me of the following:

You are entitled to 15 hours minimum rest at home base but this can be changed to 12 due to delays

and

The maximum UNMINS we carry is now 6, but of course this can be changed to 8 due to disruption.

These refer to current conditions, I am sure there are more, but I just cant think of them.

Either way, I think the words 'where possible and will endeavour' should be banned from any EBA.

[sinala1]

Hmmm
EBA was on the Intranet - now its not!! Weird.... Perhaps there is an IT outage? Surely the document hasnt been pulled already :E

[crewbus]

Hi Sinala

I dont suppose you would have a copy you could PM me?

I'm dying to read it, so I can finally see what is actually in the document!

Could you explain if there are going to be available days with extra pay like we currently have?

Thanks:ok:

[Flying Frypan]

Well I have just been through the proposed EBA with my trusty highlighter. Here are some of my observations.
1.3 737 and embraer ops, with 3hr time zone as far nth as SIN
2.2.7 What is/are augmented CC?
3.13 We have the right to transfer you??
3.14.6 fixed term contract crew?
4.1 salary increase 3% + 2% productivity = 5% total
4.1.6 What are the targets for CS gain share? Are they achievable?
4.2.2 Table 9 Ability to obtain high O/N allowance - low, ability to obtain bugger all - almost certain (goodbye to 24hr+ O/N)
5.1.3 now 3hrs notice to call in sick
5.8 Parental Leave now cease flying at 28 weeks. paid Mat leave 6 weeks. mat leave increased to 78 weeks. paid Pat leave 2 weeks.
5.9 LOA provisions
6.2 28 day rosters. 125-135hrs/mth.
6.4.2e-i working over 140hrs!
6.4.4 non credit training??
6.5 Table 1 MEL-DRW-MEL red eyes, 4 sector MEL-OOL returns, or BNE-CNS... the list goes on.
6.5.3 what are unplanned duties?? "oh we forgot to roster that duty... have an extra long duty"
6.7 protection around early, late and night duties.
6.9.1 home base min rest 12hrs
6.10 10 DDO/mth, surrounded by 2 local nights
6.14i & 6.15f extension of standby hours
6.17h APT standby can by extended
6.21 new displacement clauses nb vii & viii??!!
6.25 Unplanned Layover clause
6.26 Tour extending clause
6.27 Split duty rest 3-10 hrs.rest under 5hrs may be on aircraft! 5hrs+ in suitable accom 'relative to circumstances'???
All I can say is that I will definitely be attending the roadshows to ask a few questions to get clarification on the above question marks.
I would recommend that everyone does this and listens to what they ALL have to say, just make sure you are getting the right answers and not the galley FM versions.
Happy reading:ugh:

[crewbus]

Thanks for that Flying Frypan.

Gee. Are there any good points in the EBA?

The point about having the right to transfer us concerns me? Does this bother anyone else?

Anything about blank days/earning extra money on these days?

[Flying Frypan]

There will be no Available Days as we currently know them. Your roster will be made up of flying duties, standby duties (either aiport/home/away from home) and Optional days (OPT).
There will be no extra payments for any type of standby duty (with the exception of layover allowances for an away from home standby).
The only way you can make extra $ is on OPT's or DDO's.
If you work on an OPT day you will be paid $150 for duties 6hr and under or $250 over 6hr duty.
If you elect to work a DDO you will be paid the same as OPT day.
If you are drafted on DDO you will be paid $250 6hrs and under or $350 over 6hrs duty.

[crewbus]

Sorry for being daft, but can we elect NOT to work on OPT days and be guaranteed not to be called? Or is it like denominating, they can still call you?

It is so frustrating not having the document to read!

[Flying Frypan]

An OPT day is a day free from duty, you are not required to nominate or to be contactable. If contacted you do not have to accept the work, however if you have nominated the OPT day it is expected that you will be available and contactable.
Basically it is an extra day off, unless nominated.

[crewbus]

Thanks for your response FF. Appreciate it.

I wonder how many OPT days we are likely to get per roster period? It wouldnt seem fair that some people would get say 5-10 per month, then other crew only get 1 or 2.

[Flying Frypan]

I would think that OPT days would only be rostered after your max duty hours ahve been rostered... so if you have you duty hours all bunched up.. then more OPT days... duty hours spread out then fewer OPT days.
Some ppl would want to work extra hours for the extra $, but on the other hand some would prefer to have the day off, especially if they have worked 130 hours already that month.

[crewbus]

Yes, it depends how you look at it I guess. Though I would feel a bit ripped off if I had no extra days off per month. The more days off the better in my book :)

[KittyBlue]

I have been apart of preparing business management systems and HR for many years now. One big thing is that I have been apart of many EBA proposals with many different service providers. As the moderator said this forum is a anon forum and my personal opinions on approaching this EBA may be different to each and every one of you.

EBA can be found here:

http://intranet.virginblue.com.au/content/cabinCrew/EBA_2007/

I have now sat with a few crew and reread alot of the proposed EBA and I see many things that could be adjusted and some that I am personally happy with. I will be heading to the roadshows, not fearing of being stepped down.

The flight crew story that has gone around has as always missing data that due to privacy can not be disclosed by the company or the person involved. The only reason anyone would be stood down and this comes from your KOWF info is that you do something illegal, have ben abusive or been placed on warnings and that the final or first incident involved causes the person to be stood down.

( i dont know that story or need to know. I know if Vb didn't follow legal process correctly then they would have been taken to court for many factor of discrimination. Are you aware in the last 4 months I have come across 5 cc stood down for unexceptable behaviour issues)

(excuse me for any spellng and gramatical mistakes)

[Brisvegasboy]

OK - point taken. My only excuse for my error is lack of sleep after a red-eye.....goodness knows how I'll cope after working a trip under the new EBA.....!

Going to jump on that link and have a look now - thanks KB.

I am quite concerned about some of the points that have been raised already........

[Brisvegasboy]

That link didn't seem to work for me - any other way to access it through the intranet??

Any assistance greatly appreciated!

[wirgin blew]

Standby for the mailman. The link is only accessible from work and for obvious reasons this site is banned from work.
Already we have been let down by the FAAA as they told us they would be posting the EBA on there website on the 2nd. Also I would like to bag them some more by saying that they havent updated the VB part of the site since the 08NOV06. Correction they have revamped the site and perhaps if I use my membership number I could log in. Unfortunately it isnt handy.
OPT days are only $25 per hour hardly worth nominating for imho. If it were for the overtime amount the crew would be lining up I feel.
I have emailed my 20+ concerns to the FAAA and am eagerly awaiting their reply.
I would also like PPruners to pass the word around about using this forum as a way of venting over the next month. It may not change the EBA but it will hopefully provide an area where lots of cabin crew can come and vent. So if you post on any other boards or have lots of msn VB friends please let them know about this site.
P.S. Apologies in advance Tightslot you are going to be a little busy reading this thread over the next month. If you have any feedback regarding CAP 371 then please let us know. I would be more than happy to send you the link for the EBA once its up and running for your reading pleasure. :-)

[lowerlobe]

When is your EBA due?

[not smiling]

Almost 18 months or so ago! Give or take. It is something we have been hanging out for.

[keeponsmiling]

sounds absolutely disgraceful to me!!! Who would vote for something like this! Fatigue is going to result in someone to forget to disarm their door, blow a slide - or just simply be burnt out and have to use up more sick leave!!

May I ask what incentive there is for crew in this entire proposal??????????????????????? In my opinion think 10 days off a month is more than enough who wants more than that! Surprising as it may be to some - some of us love going to work and love the overnights and especially the available days. Without these, where is the motivation for crew to come to work and do the job properly!

[crewbus]

Hi there

Does anyone know how to login to the new FAAA website? Maybe we can only access the EBA after logging in?????

Thanks

[sinala1]

I am going to spend the next few days with a copy of the eba I can write all over, the EBA info pack and a few bevvies. I encourage everyone to write/type everything they think is good/bad/indifferent about this EBA and send it around to all your friends, and get them to add their 2 cents worth as well. The more education and opinions out there the better. Plus, emailing each other is a more direct form of communication.

[smile]

Also send emails to the company askeing them to explain anything you have issues with. At least you will have it in writing!!!

[crewbus]

Without having seen the EBA yet, from what I have seen on this forum, the main thing that concerns me is the company 'having the right to transfer you' and the OPT days. I wonder how we are going to earn this extra cash with heaps of crew spare after taking one crew of the 800.

Sinala1, make sure the bevvies dont give you the dreaded 'beer goggles' and make the EBA look better/worse than what it really is :cool:

:ok:

[crewbus]

Thanks Smile for the PM. You are a star! :ok:

[sinala1]

Haha crewbus na I have already spent a lot of time in the lead up to the release of the document, and now this past weekend, reading it and discussing it with different people. Now that I am going to have the full eba pack I am going to get "old red" (Simpons reference :E ) out and go over it all again with a fine tooth comb


Happy Reading all :E :O

[crewbus]

Well well, I have just perused the document. So many grey areas I feel, though of course once I get it on paper I will get out the highlighter and pick apart every single clause ;)

One thing that stuck out, and forgive me if I am reading this wrong, but the layover allowances.... (Renumeration table 9)

From my understanding, we will stop getting our standard $91, but instead get allowances depending on how long the layover is.

For example, I land into Perth at 2230, and then sign on again at 1300 the following day. Does this mean I will only get a the $14.95 layover payment, plus breakfast $18.55 and lunch $21.00 which equals $54.50. Missing out on the dinner allowance because I arrive after 2200?

Then clause C states that you will receive these payments when you are on a trip irrespective of whether you are on a duty or on a rest period. Does this mean if I do a day trip signing on at 0600 finishing at 1600 I will get the breakfast and lunch allowances?

Sorry if I am the only one finding this a little confusing.

[flytheplanemay]

I put this to all the current Virgin Blue crew:

What is the makeup of your fortnightly pay?

Base pay, Overnights and Available days.

The new EBA proposes overnight allowances based on the meal times you will be at an outstation. Minimum rest in Sydney would equate to $33.50 overnight allowance. Big difference to the current amount paid, regardless of time spent at outstation.

Available days. Being called out for a 3 day trip on Available days makes up a handsome sum on payday.

These days which according to the new document are 'Home Standbys' will still exist. WITHOUT the $21 per hour in addition to the base salary. And to add insult to injury, these times can be chopped and changed at the company's discretion. I thought this EBA was about lifestyle.

Lets not be fooled by the OPT days and DDOs. These are the last resort, after all Airport Standbys and Home Standbys have been utilised.

I wonder how many OPT days are going to be given each roster. My guess, minimal, and lets ask each other now, how often do you currently get drafted on a day off. I would imagine not enough to compensate for no extra hourly rate on an available day.

[smile]

Hmmm..... the postman has been and gone- but no EBA pack.

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

keeponsmiling
Not quite sure what you mean here. The way I read the EBA is that if you have a three day trip (2 o/nights)you would get the following if let's say you signed on at 0700 on the 1st day and signed off at 1800 on the last day:
1st day:
Breakfast:$18.55
Lunch :$21.00
Dinner: $36.18
Incidenatals: $14.95
Total - $90.68

2nd day: Same again
Breakfast:$18.55
Lunch :$21.00
Dinner: $36.18
Incidenatals: $14.95
Total - $90.68

3rd day:
Breakfast:$18.55
Lunch :$21.00
Dinner: $36.18
Total - $75.73

Comparison:
Current EBA you would be paid - $181 for 2 o/nights
New EBA you would be paid - $257.01 for 2 o/nights

I don't know about you but I like the look of the second one. It isn't really going to be that different except that if we have minimum layover or day trips it will affect it.