Virgin Blue EBA

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

I just re-read my post and the last line isn't correct:= Even if we have minimum rest we still get paid the allowance. You have to look at the time you sign on and the time you sign off and add up all the allowances that fall in the window.

[notalwayssunny]

Thank you for that information big hairy potaoes. That was one of my questions.

[crewbus]

Aaah, ok, so are we going to get paid these meal allowances for day trips also?

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

From what I know crew meals will no longer be loaded, just enough things for sustinance (not sure what that may be). Whenever we are at work we get the allowance. We just don't get the $14.95 for incidentals.
All this information is in the FAQ.

I would suggest before you get on here and go off your head about what other people are saying:

1. Read the document when you get it

2. If you don't understand some things, firstly look at the FAQ document, there are 137 questions and answers just on this document and they will probably answer your question

3. If you still don't understand, email the link attached to the FAQ and they will get back to you, I think they are saying within 72 hours

4. Go to the forums. You will cannot get stood down if you ask pertinent questions . The company would get destoyed if they stood you down for this. I would, however, suggest you ask the questions maturely and professionally and don't overstep the company KOWF policies. If you do go off your head thenthey may have the right to stand you down

5. Don't get someones "opinion" on clauses or the whole EBA. If they are not an expert or have some background on the EBA, i.e. FAAA reps, the FAAA, CCDM's, you will get their opinion, probably not the correct answer.

We went through this last time with the EBA. Questions being asked and opinions being given before the document had been fully read and understood.

I emplore you to ask as many questions and vote on the EBA with all the information you have collected.

Don't be lazy and get the readers digest version, i.e. someone elses opinion.

We all need to be adults find out the information ourselves.

Rant over. Vodka and soda and EBA here I come!!!;)

[wirgin blew]

4.2.2.a We will reimburse you the reasonable costs of meals and incidentals, in accordance with Remuneration Table 9, on any trip where you layover away from home base at our direction, or as set out in subclause (d) below
4.2.2.c You will receive these amounts when you are on a trip irrespective of whether you are on duty or on a rest period.
4.2.2.d You will also receive these amounts when you are on a split duty in circumstances where:
i. the rest period is greater than 5 hours
ii. you are provided with accomodation; and
iii. the sign on and sign off are in different calender days.
--
The way I see it we will have less overnights anyway so these allowances may add up to more if you get them but if your only getting your base wage then you better be working some serious overtime to make up the difference.
--
Still waiting for the postman to come and I go away for 4 days tommorrow so theoretically I have had my reading time reduced by a week. :=

[notalwayssunny]

Very well said big hairy potatoes. That is exactly what I've been trying to say all along, but instead of keeping an open mind people just keep on ranting and being negative. I hope that everyone reads the document carefully. I also cannot understand the unsupported rumours of a pilot being stood down for expressing his views. This just doesn't make sense, as the company would be sued over something as arbitrary as this. Secondly, I am a positive person because I enjoy going to work, and it is dissapointing the way fellow crew members speak about the company. Negativity affects us all, and I am sure we would all enjoy our workplace a lot more if we keep to the facts and don't spread empty, damaging rumours.

[Gpik]

How you goin guys? Ive just found out that Im coming over to Virgin Blue on the next exchange from Virgin Atlantic. Going to be based in MEL, start training on the 14th May..hopefully fly with some of you soon! Cheers :}

[Brisvegasboy]

It is all very well to encourage people to maintain an open mind notalwayssunny, however I think that what many people who post on this forum are concerned about is that some crew won't look deeply enough into it and simply vote yes without looking at the fineprint.

Many of the changes proposed appear to erode the favourable conditions that we currently enjoy (ie. daily overtime after 9 hours - for goodness sake, what other position are you paid monthly overtime??)

Yes, I agree, let's REALLY study the document (therefore giving it a fair go) and see how it compares to the current EBA.

I completely disagree with your comment regarding negativity in the workplace - most of us are positive about our workplace and want to keep it that way - if we allow our conditions to erode, THEN one may see some negativity.......I enjoy my job way too much to sit back and not stand up and try to maintain parts of our agreement which most of us are happy with.

Interesting times ahead (especially in the next few weeks....!!)

bvb :ok:

[crewbus]

Hi guys

Firstly, thank you for clarifying the new allowance for meals. For someone who would prefer daytrips, I like the idea of getting allowance money without having to be away from home.

Secondly, fair enough that you are concerned about the negativitiy surrounding this EBA, but it seems as though many of us are commenting on the new proposed conditions after reading through the EBA on our understanding of it.

I haven't been at work for the past week, so I only have the EBA that a fellow PPRUNER was kind enough to email me, so I am sure I am not the only one who does not have the FAQs to refer to. We all know that the FAAA website has let us down.

I for one am looking forward to reading through all of the information.

I am pleased the overnight allowance has been clarified, can you please do the same with Standbys at home, and tell me I have somehow missed that we will be paid extra for these if we get called out?

Also Airport Reserves, do we get anything for this considering it is in the EBA that we must assist ground crew or admin?

I look forward to more discussions on the EBA folks! And am always happy for someone to point out the positives that I may have overlooked :ok:

[ozflyboy]

I could be wrong - so please correct me in the nicest possible way if this is the case, however I am quite sure from briefly reading the EBA online (and I will clarify this when I very carefully go through the hard copy with the red pen today!) that we do not get an allowance for meals (even though this would make sense) on day trips.

Just thought I'd throw that one out there and get the discussions flowing on another of the numerous topics that will be discussed on here in the coming weeks!

Now, where is that mailman.......

Oz :rolleyes:

[crewbus]

Hi Ozflyboy

Clause 4.2.2c states that 'you will receive these payments when you are on a trip irrespective of whether you are on a duty or on a rest period', which I read as you will get them whenever you work through the meal times whether it be a day trip or an overnight.

Though like I said, I am reading it without any other reference to FAQs etc.

Hopefully today the posty will have a package in the mail!

[ozflyboy]

Hi Crewbus,

I am only going on what has been posted here, however if you refer to wirgin blew's post, it states that we receive reimbursment on any trip where you layover away from home base at the company's directon. I understand that it is then that we recieve these payments whether on a duty or a rest period (only whilst away).

I really doubt we would be paid allowances for a daytrip.......

Let me now chase the postman up the street....!!!!

[crewbus]

Hi ozflyboy

I think we will have to wait for the posty.

My initial understanding of it was we would only get these allowances on overnights, but then I read it as we would get it on any trip.

Time will tell!

I was just reading through the airport standby clauses. Apart from having to perform other duties and not getting paid extra ;) they can change the time we are on airport during the duty. Imagine doing the 5am-10am airport reserve. Then at 0930 they call you and say, no, you cant go home, you are staying until 1200!

No thanks! Where is my lifestyle choice in that?

What are your thoughts?

[Warped Wings]

notalwayssunny

I also cannot understand the unsupported rumours of a pilot being stood down for expressing his views.
Sorry, to be negative but I can tell you that the rumour is actually fact - it happened at a pilot EBA meeting.

I don't know much about your EBA though it sounds like the company is proposing a similar allowance system to the one currently used for the pilots - you get paid an allowance for working through a meal period only when you overnight ie no meal allowance for a day trip.

[notalwayssunny]

In response to Warped Wings:
I cannot accept anything as fact without supporting evidence, in my experience almost all rumors end up being a complete fabrication or a distorted account of a situation. Being stood down for merely expressing one's views does not sound logical to me. There has to be more to the story.

[flytheplanemay]

Notalwayssunny,

Getting off the subject of the EBA for a minute, the pilots are still going on about a pilots strike that happened nearly 20 years ago, so of course they are still going to carry on about this pilot that was or wasnt stood down.

They dont seem to talk about much else, bless them.

[crewbus]

I still haven't received the EBA pack in the mail!

Has anyone else?

[smile]

NO crewbus, the postie has just come and gone for the second day in a row. All he had was bills!!!

We were told that it was posted out on the 1st and it is now the 6th- I don't think that Australia post is that bad........................

[crewbus]

I think the whole thing, including the actual document itself is a sham!

Of course that is my opinion, but I just went through and made a list of points that really concerned me. I am hoping this will be reduced when I get the FAQs, though I doubt it.

How can they pay us for available days now, but then all of a sudden just stop and think we will be ok with it?

Plus hours not being included for training days? What about when we have to be trained on the Embraers?

[keeponsmiling]

No EBA pack in my neck of the woods either.... it's all very stressful at the moment. The time that would have gone into constructing this new EBA, I don't even want to think about Are they ready and willing to keep it the way it is or going to be forcing peoples hands to vote yes for this. The money that would have gone in to making the schmick dvd's etc could have be spent on other things. I hope they are ready for alot of backlash and questions that need serious answers... available money no longer being paid, being able to extend you airport hours whenever they feel like it. That is just not right. There are many of us that have children and to think that we have an airport from 0700 -1200 and then to be phoned and told that we will have to be there till 14.00 is ridiculous. What happens to little Sammy that needs to be picked up from creche at 13.00 because according to my roster I finished at 12.00!!!!! We are not puppets and should be making our points very clear. I hope everyone out there, new or old to the company takes a long hard look at the new EBA and doesn't just vote for what Joe Bloggs is doing because you can't be bothered reading it properly yourself. This is our life guys and if it is signed in it is here to stay for a very long time!!!:} :uhoh: :confused: :confused: :oh:

[PER210]

Smile... dont be so sure about Australia Post. I'm awaiting a package from TAFE which they said they sent 2 weeks ago, and i'm still waiting to see it. And also, i work at a hotel, and we sent out a pillow to someone who left it behind (must of been a good one if they wanted it posted out) and we had them (the guests) calling us up every second day for about 3 weeks asking if we had sent it, and we sent it like a week before she started calling us. I wonder if she's recieved it yet... And we had 60 letters go missing...

But anyway... They may have actualy posted it out and its just sitting in one of Australia Posts many boxes.

[Bla_Bla]

hello everyone!!!
just wanted to know if one of u guys might have any idea as to where VB will have their LH base in OZ ?
many thks
:)

[exmax]

Hi Bla,

I don't work for Virgin Blue but rumour has it that they're looking at the 2nd half of 2008 flying to the the west coast of the US with B777-300's.
Having said that, everything is subject to various negotiations and approvals.

exmax

[Bla_Bla]

hey exmax thks for ur reply. do u know where they will have their fa base? syd, mel or bne?

[ccguy]

I hope they are ready for alot of backlash and questions that need serious answers... available money no longer being paid, being able to extend you airport hours whenever they feel like it. That is just not right. There are many of us that have children and to think that we have an airport from 0700 -1200 and then to be phoned and told that we will have to be there till 14.00 is ridiculous. What happens to little Sammy that needs to be picked up from creche at 13.00 because according to my roster I finished at 12.00!!!!! We are not puppets and should be making our points very clear.

Keeponsmiling, I have had a good look (very good look in fact) over the EBA, and while I still have a few questions that need answering, I think a couple of things you have mentioned need to be clarified. What happens if you are on an Airport now and are called out at 5 mins to 1200?? You would have to arrange to have someone to pick up Johnny from creche anyway. Being on airport means that you can be called to fly at anytime from 0700-1200 anyway. Under the new EBA, anytime spent on Airport will still count towards your rostered hours so it wouldn't be in VB's best interest to ALWAYS extend the Airport hours as you would run out of hours and according to point 6.17 (q) Duty time spent on airport standby will count for roster overtime purposes and fatigue avoidance limitations.


As for Available Days, they will exist but they will be called Optional Days. You can elect to work on these days or not. So you will have a choice. And you have no obligation to accept a duty unless you have nominated to request a shift on that day. You will still be paid for working a shift on these days, $150 for a shift up to 6 hours and $250 for a shift over 6 hours. Also, you will only be drafted once a month maximum. At the moment, you can be drafted on any day off.


I hope everyone out there, new or old to the company takes a long hard look at the new EBA and doesn't just vote for what Joe Bloggs is doing because you can't be bothered reading it properly yourself. This is our life guys and if it is signed in it is here to stay for a very long time!!!


All in all, I have had my partner read over the EBA too so that I had an unbiased opinion on what was contained inside. He has been able to explain a lot more of the jargon to me to help me to make an INFORMED decision. I still have questions that need answering and I hope that these will be answered when I attend one of the EBA meeting in the next few weeks. I urge you to seek clarity on the conditions rather than going into these meetings with all guns blazing. I admit, when I first read the EBA, I wasn't very happy at all. But I believe that it had to do with the fact that I didn't really understand all the conditions set out in each section. I am not going to say I am 100% happy at the moment, but I am hoping that the meetings will clarify further questions I have.

Let's hope we can sort this EBA out as soon as possible. I for one am sick of waiting for it all to be sorted out and really want one less thing to think about. Here's hoping for a quick resolution.

Cheers,

[keeponsmiling]

CCGUY- I am well aware how an airport reserve works- thankyou for clarifying! I was trying to make an example out of a situation that can be manipulated. As it seems most things in the EBA can be manipulated to suit them not us (but, however, if, except etc etc etc). I just feel with all of this, we will be losing more of our lifestyle as we will never fully know when our work day is going to end start etc.

[crewbus]

ccguy,

Maybe you should listen to your own advice and make your own decision. A previous post by yourself made reference your partner. It isn't your partner's EBA, it is yours. So even if your partner works for Virgin Blue, it would be fairly foolish to lact on what he thinks. Surely you have enough maturity to make your own mind up?

If you look at the EBA closely, Available Days are not being replaced by Optional Days. They are being replaced by Standbys at home, without an extra hourly rate.

Check out clause 6.24 - Assigning Work to Cabin Crew. Crew will be called out on Optional Days AFTER crew who are on call, airport and standbys, re assignables, displaced crew have all been utilised.

After being rostered 10 days off, with a couple of trips, Airports and availables how often do you think you will be rostered an OPT day?

So ccguy, before you get on here and go on about what 'your partner' thinks, double check the facts and make your own decision.

You can do it :ok:

[smile]

STOP THE PRESS!!!! It has arrived. Dropped off by Aussie Post mail contractor this morning- not the postie. :D

[ccguy]

crewbus, it is all about getting a better understanding of the EBA. I CHOSE to get someone outside the company to help me understand this EBA and this is my choice. I have chosen to seek clarification not only from him, but also from when I attend the EBA meetings. I don't tell you who to seek clarification from, and I expect you to also respect my wishes as to whom I speak to about the EBA.

[crewbus]

Hi ccguy

Of course I respect that you cant make the decision on your own so you ask someone else for help - thats fine. My main concern was you rattling on about standbys being replaced by OPT, when clearly this is not the case.

But like you said, this can all be clarified at one of the roadshows. In the meantime though, this forum is a great way to see how other people are feeling about the proposed EBA!

Maybe i'll see you at a forum :ok:

[ccguy]

You really don't listen do you crewbus. I DON'T need help with my decision, I am capable and smart enough to make that part up on my own. Like everyone else, and I am assuming you also, as you too have questions for the roadshows, I am seeking clarification on the understanding and meaning behind parts of the EBA that I am not sure about. If the reason that you are on this forum is to belittle people and make rediculous statements then perhaps you are on the wrong forum. I am all for people discussing the EBA, it helps to gain a better understanding, and I am sorry if I missread or missinterpreted a section of the EBA. Heck, I am only human. THe last time I looked we were all working for the same company and shouldnt we be working together to get this thing sorted out rather than taking silly and worthless pot shots at people. Make peace not war crewbus. Remember, you still have to work with everyone who is effected by the EBA.

[crewbus]

Hi ccguy

Will not get into a slaying match on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Check your PMs :)

[keeponsmiling]

:confused: :} well having read more of the new proposed EBA - I have to say I am slightly confused with a few things...

Does anyone know whether home standby and optional days are the same thing? I have a bad feeling they are not, and due to this I can imagine optional days will be hard to come by. They work out to be more than what we would be getting paid on an available day however I really wonder how many of these would be placed on our 28 day roster!!! I would say 1 or 2 if we are really lucky! I would imagine there would be more home standby days but the sad thing is we will not be getting paid for them (correct me if I am wrong please). How crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!! On top of not getting paid for them we can be on call for up to 18 hours! So you basically waste an entire day cooped up inside your house and then get called out on the 12th hour to do a duty and get no extra pay for it! Number 1 - they think they are giving us the pleasure of relaxing at home - Number 2 - you can't venture 5 metres out the front door for 18 hours just in case your phone rings! Number 3 -your span of hours can change at any time.
I really just don't understand - I thought that our lifestyle wouldn't be compromised at all, but if they can change them at anytime how are you meant to plan or have a lifestyle!!! I could be reading the whole thing wrong, but it is very concerning to me (amongst many other things in this EBA). It's all very fluffy and a bit difficult to read. It looks to me like crewing are going to have nervous breakdowns with all the changing to rosters to fit in with all this new overtime, over fatigue time etc etc etc. I'm pretty sure I know how I will be voting at the moment :sad: :sad: :mad: :eek: :\

I can't believe the only way you can earn extra money is by these optional days (which I can already bet we won't get many on our roster, and if we do have them we won't be called out), or elect to work on your days off!! Umm we kind of need these days off to rest. I personally like the available days the way they are

[crewbus]

You are reading correctly Keeponsmiling.

OPT days are different to Standbys at home.

And OPT days will only be used after Airport standby, Standby at homes, reassignables have all been utlised.

Its a big concern for me too.

[737NG_Girl]

:hmm:

Just watched the EBA dvd... nice to see both the "give" and "take" sides of things fairly represented :=

"Take" includes:
- Min rest at home reduced to 12 hours, or 10 by your choice (gaurenteed bid option for 12 months of 15 hours rest at home - I still see this reduction of rest as a backwards step in conditions)
- First year f/a's recieve only 15 days personal leave instead of current 20
- Potential introduction of fixed term cabin crew (a'la Qantas Strikebreakers on 3 month contracts)
- 3 hours notice now required when calling in sick, instead of current 2 horus
- No crew meals (some may see this as a benefit :E but not me!); and meal allowances ARE NOT paid on day trips (some crew think they are)
- As per section 5.1.5(b) if you take sick leave over your uncertified days, and don't provide med cert etc within 7 days of returning to work, you will NOT be paid for the time off, AND your sick leave accrual gets deducted!!
- Have to pay for own passports and any visas the company requires us to have
- Temporary base transfers with no clear info regarding accomodation and allowances during the transfer
- Clause 2.2.7 allows VB to introduce pairings outside (longer than) the duty limits set, provided FAAA approves (SYD-PER or BNE-PER returns, anyone :yuk: )
- Clause 2.2.3 allows VB to makes changes to the EBA in consultation with the FAAA in regards to Embraer introduction
- Clause 3.3.3 says "you may be REQUIRED" to act up, as opposed to now where we can say No
- Casual Cabin Crew to get paid more per hour than CS's
- Optional days ARE NOT the new "Available Days". There IS still home standby, for which you DO NOT get paid on a callout.
- Overtime paid now when you extend past 10.5 hours instead of current 9 hours.
- Clause 4.2.9 (iv) Overtime NOT paid when you work on an optional day or day off
- We now get 12 weeks paid maternity leave at half rate on full salary - although the rumours said it was going to be 12 weeks at full pay (galley gossip I guess) but the bit that my b/f is pissed about is if he takes paternity leave, its paid only on his BASE salary - not including annualised allowances
- Introduction of full standby rosters
- Clause 6.4.4(d) Non-credit training days ( :hmm: ) limited to 9 hours, but that does not include time spent positioning to undertake such duties eg you could pax to BNE for training, have 9 hours there, then pax back
- I wont even begin to talk about Operations Tables 1 & 2 :yuk:
- Clause 6.5.5 You can agree to work 2 hours beyond the limitations set out in Operations Table 2 ("Hi, Sandy, yeah its crewing here... No pressure hon but the flights are going to be cancelled if you dont agree... yeah I know you have already operated 12 hours, but its just one more sector, think of all hugs and gratitude you will get from the pax for agreeing")
- Yes the limits on the numbers of earlies etc sounds good, until you read Clauses 6.7.2 which pretty much allows you to do 5 in a row anyway - provided certain conditions are met - but its really not too different to what we have now!
- Clause 6.10(f) We can agree to have rostered days off downroute??
- Clause 6.15(b) Home standby does not have to have an indicated time! You can be told up to the day before!!!
- Clause 6.15(o) If you have a single standby then a trip starting after, you can be forcibly displaced from the trip and put onto an overnight. Currently, if you have a single standby day, you can only be put onto an overnight trip by agreement.
- Clause 6.15(t) Operations Table 2 applies when you are on home standby - ie you can work longer (up to 13 1/2 hours) than a standard rostered duty - plus 2 hours extension by agreement!
- Clause 6.17(h) Airport standby can be extended WHILST you are on standby!!!
- Operations table 2 also applies to Airport Reserve, calculated from the time you signed on for airport
- Clause 6.27(g & h) Split duties with rest of 5 hours or less can have that rest taken ON THE AIRCRAFT! Mmm... I know I will be feeling fresh as a daisy after 5 hours resting on the aircraft

Sorry if thats a bit detailed, but so many CS's are telling me to vote no - I wanted to decide for myself - which, I now have. I know MEL is a younger base, but I will be encouraging other crew to actually read this and understand the profound effects its going to have. I was not here for the last EBA vote, but apparently it got pretty bitchy from what I have been told!

I heard on my last trip that the cost of the salary increases costs less than the savings they made when they took a crewmember off the -800 ( :mad: ), so I did some calculations myself - and yes, its true.

Yes it is good with more part time slots, I want to have kids soon so thats a positive.

The CS gainshare does not inspire me to want to become CS. 2 % of base salary? They should get paid a fair bit more than crew...

Rant over

Vote NO.

[up in the clouds]

I'd like to know what on earth has happened to 'FULL TIME' employment??? As in what a majority of us are employed as. And what you signed a contract to be employed as when you first started.

The new EBA has no category anywhere for 'FULL TIME' employees (3.14 - TYPES OF EMPLOYMENT) yet referes to full time in many different clauses.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Maybe they will endeavour to employee us full time :E

Also FAQ section on FAAA website http://www.faaadomestic.org.au/upload/867-1.doc
Haven't read it but looks interesting

[sinala1]

So, going by the FAAA document posted above, and quoted below:
Your roster was built to 133hrs and your final trip in the roster is a 35hr multi day trip. Earlier in the roster, delays totalled 6.5hrs and you agreed to work a further 1.5hrs above the single duty maximum – total 8hrs above your planned 133hrs. Your final trip has not been operated but your total hours actually performed before commencing this trip is 106hrs. 106hrs + the 35hr trip is projected to go above 140. You decide that you no longer wish to do the trip and you ring crewing the day before. You will become reassignable for the hours of the trip. Crewing will try to provide you with a replacement duty(ies) which is projected to reach your 130hrs and total under 140hrs. This may be in the form of single day duties or a replacement multi day trip. Should the replacement duty worked take you over 130hrs, then you will be paid roster overtime for all hours worked over 130. Should the replacement duty take your roster total to 130hrs or less, then you will be paid daily overtime for any duties in your roster which were greater than 10hrs:30mins
If I have worked say 5 12 hour days in my roster, which should equal 7.5 hours overtime, but my worked hours for that roster end up being 131 - Will I only get paid 1 hour overtime instead of 7.5??? Milbud are you able to provide clarification on this?
55. How are duty credit hours calculated for the roster build?
Approved leave credits calculated 130hrs ÷ 28 days = 4.6428hrs = 4hrs:38mins.
Standby credits calculated: 130hrs ÷ 18 possible work days = 7.2222hrs = 7hrs:13mins.
Performance monitoring: 5hrs per roster (pro rated with annual leave)

Why are Approved Leave (I am presuming this includes personal/sick leave) credits based on 28 days (particularly in reference to Sick leave, not annual leave)? Sick leave can still only be taken on a possible 18 work days - so sick leave credits should be 7hours 13mins :hmm:
71. Can a single duty turn into a split duty?
Yes, although any additional unplanned hours must take all fatigue avoidance limitations and work rules into account for this to occur.

:eek:

Up In The Clouds you are right - I can't believe I missed that - there is no reference to full time employees in that section!

737NG-Girl I hope everyone is taking as much time as you obviously have in reading this document and getting a full understanding of it. I too have come across crew who are under the misapprehension that meal allowances will be paid on day trips, which is not the case
Example 2:
S-on 0630 BNE-ADL 5hrs rest 1530 ADL-BNE S-off 1830
Planned total length sign-on to sign-off: 12hours
Duty limit maximum: 0630 s-on band, 2 sectors 12:30 + half 5hrs rest = 15:00
For the purposes of this example, let’s say planned duty time = actual duty time 12hrs.
Fatigue avoidance hours: 12hrs
Min rest following: 12hrs
Duty credit hours: 12hrs = rest 5hrs @1:1 because no accommodation
Overtime: 1.5hrs daily overtime payable if total roster 130hrs or less*
Allowances: Nil because same calendar day
Ignoring the other stuff about split duties for now, you can see that allowances are not paid on the same calender day for a single duty that does not include a layover.

[Sonique]

Scream and fight until the 'fixed term employment ' term is taken out of your EBA. That is your BIGGEST issue.

Don't let yourselves become like Qantas. Where casuals and contracters rule.

Allow only full-time employment.

Good Luck guys, your colleagues in other airlines are behind you 100%.

[Brisvegasboy]

Well, well, well.....

The proverbial has hit/is about to hit the fan I feel. Just back from a three day trip and it was incredibly interesting chatting with my own crew and crew on turnarounds. Except for very few, the general feeling is one of 'we have looked/are in the process of looking at the document and we don't like what we see'.

I am yet to find some time (today at some point, I hope) to sit down and really look at the nitty gritty, but from what I already know:

Overtime paid on 10.5 hours and above as opposed to 9 hours now (NO THANKS)
My friend, an Ad Hoc, has to work more hours for less money (in most cases)
The whole allowances issue

......and I am yet to digest it properly!!

One of my crew members ran some allowances scenarios and found there was def no average of $115. Yes, it may increase slightly, however, we should have received an overnight increase anyway AND NOW we are getting no crew meals (I think most guys would have eaten them anyway, but that is beside the point)

I will get back in here after some detailed study......

VOTE NO - I know it is certainly not something I will be sticking around for!!

Cheers,

bvb:mad:

[crewbus]

Hi guys

Like I have said previously, I think it would be ridiculous to vote for the first thing that is offered to us, no matter how much the union says we should vote for it. Of course they are going to say that, they have been the ones negotiating. It would look pretty bad if they turned around to us and said 'dont vote for it' as our confidence in the them (if there is any left) will be pretty much gone!

As DR said in the Dvd, if it is voted no, we will continue under the current EBA and the company will seek to understand why it was voted no.

Another few little points, look at how we all dispise the 1-2 hour waits between flights...imagine the split shifts!

Thanks for pointing out the Types of Employment, massive concern for most of us. One of the benefits of DJ is that we have full time perm positions.

Also, with the company looking at opening a base in Sydney and I suspect ADL also, overnights will become very far and few between. So yes there is a little increase in allowance, but how long for?

Not to mention the no extra for Standby at home! Dont get me started on that again!

What is the general feel out online guys? I havent been at work for the past week...

[lowerlobe]

Obviously your employer has an interest in this EBA being agreed to.

From what i have read the FAAA would also like you to agree to the EBA.

Has the FAAA sent you anything with the pro's and con's of this EBA especially compared to your existing EBA?

If they have not ,then I would suggest a face to face meetings with the FAAA so that they can answer questions directly .This also gives the union an idea of where the crew stand on it.

This way if the majority of crew are not happy with it you can relay that feeling directly to the union or vice versa.

[wirgin blew]

If you have any questions please email the FAAA if you are a member. If you arent then email your DM for the company line or perhaps join or rejoin FAAA if you feel that it is worth it.
--
Sinala1 they way I read it you will have 131 duty hours and you would have picked up 7.5 hours as OT 5x12 hour shifts. Now I also think that the last 1 hour would be OT and any subsequent delays or disruptions would also be OT.
--
About the training days - 5x9 hour days that dont count towards your overtime hours but your fatigue hours. My thinking is that CRM, EPS, AVMED, SEC and one other per annum so I would imagine any EMB training would be additional to that and would have to count towards the rostered hours.
--
Types of employment: it says nothing about full time which is strange but it does say at the start of that section "which inlcude but are not limited to those set out below:"
--
Lastly dont forget that some of this mess can be thanked to Mr Howard and his labour laws, something to keep in mind latter this year when you are going to the polls.

[Zig Zag]

Hi Guys. This will be my third EBA as C.S with Virgin Blue and they are getting worst as the years go on!! I was here flying on DAY 1 in 2000. I signed the very first EBA. 80% of us had never flown before so we took a chance!! I voted NO on the second one and it still got in!!
As I read thru this proposal I sit and worry about where they are trying to take us!! I'm struggling to find anyhing positive in it!!
I would be happy to have the current one for another year as they negotiate another one.
If we let this one in now God only knows what the future agreements will be like!! Here is our chance to stand up and be counted. United!!
Cut all the Bull****!! Brisbane, Melbourne and lets not forget our Sydney based crew(they have been here as long as anyone) and vote this DOWN!!
The "Man" needs to know how we feel!! If the flight deck got 90% we should aim for 95% voting NO..that would send a clear message!!
MY VOTE WILL BE HEARD !!

[sinala1]

Wirgin Blew:
Should the replacement duty worked take you over 130hrs, then you will be paid roster overtime for all hours worked over 130. Should the replacement duty take your roster total to 130hrs or less, then you will be paid daily overtime for any duties in your roster which were greater than 10hrs:30mins
I personally interpret that as getting paid overtime in one case or the other, ie If total duty hours are below 130 then you get paid any daily overtime for that month (ie duties over 10.5 hours); or if total duty hours go over 130 then you get paid monthly overtime. You only get paid one or the other is the way I read it - I understand one of our colleagues from here has had this clarified, perhaps they are able to post their understanding of it here? Either way, its something that MUST be clarified in the document, and personally I would rather get paid the current overtime rates over 9 hours per day.

[seektofly]

:} Rightyo... Let me get this one right...

1. They want to take away our meals onboard (so we all have to bring our own food) - which I am guessing we will be paying for with the $18 Breakfast money, $21 Lunch money and $36 dinner money... ok thats cool but tell me, what replaces the actual overnight allowance??

2. I am guessing we will only be getting the $14.95 for the Darwin red eye, or does that come under the dinner and breakfast bracket in which case we would get $36 + $18 and perhaps the incidental allowance of lets say $15.00 .. Thats a grand total of around $69 instead of the current $92 dollars that we get for doing a red eye ... plus we get fed on that red eye too...

I don't want to do airport reserve in another city. I don't want to be available in a hotel room in another city. Being away from home on overnights is enough for me.

As far as extra maternity leave goes, that isn't going to happen this side of ever for me... so that for me is not an incentive.

Just these points are enough to make me vote no, let alone the part which says that we will be able to have the uninterrupted rest in a parked aircraft somewhere...

Gosh, paint my shirt black with orange stripes and call me Jetstar! ;)


VOTE NO.

[wirgin blew]

seektofly - DRW return is possible from either MEL or BNE as a single crew return trip. The way I read it you will get nothing extra for this trip other than overtime hours over 10.5. It is treated as a day trip as you are not actual using a hotel nor a you staying away from home so you are not entitled to the allowance. I have heard that VB was paying this in breach of the tax office ruling on allowances.
The meals that VB provide are not a requirement as you can bring your own or buy whats off the carts (LOL). Also in the crew meal survey an overwhelming number of respondants said that they would rather bring their own food and the wastage every day supports this.
The allowances have been broken down by the ATO and if you want the link I can pm you so the company is just paying us what the ATO is telling them is ok.
I'm certainly not encouraging you to change your mind about the EBA but we need to focus on what we have control over changing and forget about whats out of our hands.
Now according to operations table 1 page 47 - we can do the DRW return leaving between 1800-2159 as long as it fits in to 11.5 duty hours, if for some reason we are delayed enroute we will be asked to extend to 13.5 (6.5.5). The way I see it people will want to get home as they wont have a change of clothes so then if one person says lets stay in DRW they either get relief crew to do the sector or the whole crew gets an unplanned layover. This to me is just one of many areas that need work on.

[ak3141]

wirgin blew, in relation to the company paying an allowance in breach of the ATO ruling, it depends on how literally you interpret the ruling.

The ruling states that 'the employee must sleep away from home' for travel allowances. When you consider that crew are required to rest away from home before a red eye and sign on after dinner time and then work through the breakfast period, it would be difficult to argue to the Commissioner that crew would not be disadvantaged if they did not receive the overnight allowance.

For those interested, the ATO Tax Determination 2006/43 (http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?rank=find&criteria=AND%7ETD%7Ebasic%7Eexact:::AND%7E2004%2F19%7Ebasic% 7Eexact&target=FA&style=java&sdocid=TXD/TD200643/NAT/ATO/00001&recStart=1&PiT=99991231235958&recnum=8&tot=8&pn=ALL:::ALL) states that the reasonable amount for meal allowances for salaries under $84,250 is $94.30. The proposed changes for the maximum meal allowance available in the new EBA is $90.68, which is $3.62 less than the amount deemed reasonable by the ATO for the 2006-2007 income year.

We currently receive $91.26 for overnights AND we receive meals on board the aircraft. However, this will change with the new EBA as we will not receive meals on board the aircraft under ANY circumstances :=

If red eyes were operated as a shuttle, then we would not be able to claim reasonable expenses for meals as we would not have satisfied the requirements of the ruling for travel allowances. Of course, you could argue that this isn't all that different from our current day trips and that you don't even eat the meals on board.

However, when you consider our current conditions and do some simple math, it isn't hard to see how much worse off you would be under the new EBA for a 12 hour duty. Currently we cannot be rostered for a duty that exceeds 9 hours 45 minutes, we get overtime after 9 hours and we get meals on the aircraft.

Based on rough estimates, we would be $83 worse off in this scenario (3 crew meals lost approx. $30, 1.5 hours less overtime approx. $41, time and a half after 10.5 hours instead of double time after 9 hours 45 mins approx. $12). IMHO, a 12 hour duty (2.25 hours longer) without any meals, 1.5 hours less overtime pay and only time and a half instead of the double time we currently receive is NOT a step forward :suspect:

Are we really better off under the new EBA?

[smile]

The ruling states that 'the employee must sleep away from home' for travel allowances.

If we want to get literal on the working of this- all we need to do is ensure that each crew member get his/her 20 controlled nap and technically we have slept way from home.

Do you think we could claim it twice if we take into account the micro sleeps we all do in the car when driving home??

[qfcabin]

SMILE said:Do you think we could claim it twice if we take into account the micro sleeps we all do in the car when driving home?
Slightly off topic...but maybe worthy of starting a new one..one day these exhausting drives home after long night sectors will cause a death! Then EBA's may be looked at more seriously by greedy employers.
Sorry for the smiley..it just appeared and I can't seem to remove it..it is NOT intended.

[djvirginblue]

Ok let's just say in a strange set of circumstances the EBA gets approved as the majority votes yes (I hope not) - how legit is this election/voting company?? I am praying that everyone has a thorough look at this document and makes a decision not only for themselves but for the other 1300 cabin crew out there. My vote will be ending with the letter O

[320subria]

For me one of the most worrying points in the proposed EBA is the fact that Virgin will be able to employ or engage casual cabin crew and cabin crew on maximum term contracts (see 3.14.5 and 3.14.6). What will probably happen in my opinion is that all new cabin crew will be employed on contracts under very different working conditions (like Qantas has done with MAM), thereby creating a divide in the workforce and a loss of secure permanent full time jobs and those conditions that go with permanent full time jobs such as annual leave, long service leave, maternity leave etc. And yes thanks to our federal government AWA's will become the norm. I will be voting NO based purely on this point (though there are not many positive notes in the proposed EBA anyway). Though Virgin has been responsible for creating many wonderful opportunities since its inception in 2000 (though helped in part by the collapse of Ansett), it is also responsible for eroding conditions in the industry that existed prior to its entry. I am very much interested in ensuring this company remains viable and successful but not at the continual expense of workplace conditions. They reduced the crew complement and we have had to adjust to these new working conditions and what reward have we received for the millions of dollars we are saving the company.....NOTHING!!

[DJ747]

I have a friend who has been invited for a Cabin Crew position with Virgin Blue. Can anyone briefly outline the interview day routine for her please.

Thanks

[greenslopes]

Guys & Gals,
Don't worry about the line "there is no alternative if this isn't accepted" as dictated by the Co.........................look what has/and hasn't changed since the pilots rejected their proposed EBA Doc.
If nothing changes then you cannot be forced to accept any lowering of conditions...........i.e it cannot get any worse than it is now!
If you accept the new EBA you are endorsing what the Co wants............read the whole Doc and if any part doesn't fit the bill,then vote NO. Alternatively if you think it is a great Doc then vote accordingly.
Good Luck!

[sinala1]

2.2.7 Extended Pairings / Augmented Cabin Crew
Should we deem it operationally necessary to introduce extended pairings, beyond the duty hour limitations set out
in this Agreement, we will consult with the FAAA. We will reach agreement with the FAAA prior to introducing any
such pairings. Depending on the pairings this may include the use of augmented cabin crew.
Augmented crewing means Heavy crewing a flight - ie providing more crew than would otherwise be operationally required. This clause allows pairings LONGER than those printed in the Operation Tables provided the FAAA allows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2.3 Dealing with Special Circumstances
Where special circumstances arise which have the capacity to impact on our business we may need to vary the
terms of this Agreement.
Any such variation will be through the provision of a dispensation issued by an accredited representative of the
FAAA. Any request for a dispensation will not be unreasonably withheld where it is sought.
Everything, every day, has a capacity to impact the business. So to me, effectively clause 2.3 means clause 2.2.7 will most likely not be denied by the FAAA - So could we end up operating Longer duties eg BNE-CNS-SIN-CNS, MEL-PER-DPS-PER etc with heavy crews??
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1.5 Relationship to Other Industrial Instruments and Legislation
This Agreement is a comprehensive agreement. It replaces and excludes all awards (including all protected award
conditions in those awards), orders of industrial commissions and industrial agreements however described that
would otherwise apply to Cabin Crew members.
It excludes all state laws excepting those dealing with occupational health and safety, workers’ compensation,
apprenticeship and long service leave.
Excludes all state laws???? Since when does an EBA override state legislation? Can anyone tell me if this is normal (and if so, provide reference to where I can find such information about it being normal?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1.6 No Extra Claims
This Agreement covers the field in relation to all employment matters. Those bound by it and those to whom it
applies will not pursue any additional claims whatsoever or however described or any further wage or allowance
increases against Virgin Blue during the life of this Agreement relating to any matter or employment condition
whether covered by this Agreement or not.
So our duties can increase, but we are not allowed to ask for extra money for those duties?
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Interesting reading - anyone got anything to add/clarify?


PS For those who are unfamiliar, DPS is Denpasaar in Bali.

[djvirginblue]

call me a bimbo but when has virgin blue flown to denpasar or singapore or are you preempting that this is we're we will be flying to in the future???

I am praying that this eba does not go through!!! They make such a HUUGGEE profit as it is, why not keep your crew happy. They have already reduced the crew down to four (I can only imagine to increase their profitability, not to keep up to date with the rest of the world), so why try and come up with every other way to squeeze out a bit more!!! :mad: :confused: :bored: :ugh:

[sinala1]

call me a bimbo
Ok.......... Bimbo!!! :E (Just Kidding - we need to laugh at ourselves through all this! :} )
but when has virgin blue flown to denpasar or singapore or are you preempting that this is we're we will be flying to in the future???
From the agreement:
1.3 Operation and Application of this Agreement
This Agreement applies to Virgin Blue Cabin Crew members operating on Boeing 737 and Embraer aircraft
operated by Virgin Blue on domestic and international routes where a flight involves a time zone change of not
more than 3 hours from Eastern Standard Time or Eastern Standard Summer Time. This Agreement extends to
operations no further north than the line of latitude passing through Singapore.
2.2.8 International Operations
To the extent that as a business we elect to operate internationally under this Agreement, including extended
pairings, we will discuss this with the FAAA prior to doing so.
4.1 Salaries, Pay Rates and Annualised Allowances
Your total salary comprises a base salary along with various annualised allowances, which are set out below. It
includes payment for working the full variety of shifts, weekends and public holidays. It also includes payment for
all work associated with international operations and endorsement on Boeing 737 and Embraer aircraft.
This EBA makes reference to international operations on the B737 - they were just a couple of destinations that are within reach of a B737. I wouldnt be surprised if now that we are aligned with Pac Blue's crewing on the -800, if we take over some of their operations or open new sectors for them. I am NOT presenting that possibility as fact - its pure speculation - however under this EBA with the possibility of extended pairings, augmented crew, split shifts with rest potentially onboard the aircraft; all that combined with the removal of the CS Level 2 paygrade which was previously there for international operations - it brings us closer to Pac Blues cost base....

[djvirginblue]

aaggh ok cool, I think I need to go and read the eba again for the 10th time:).

[DJ_Fly_Boi]

My head is spinning!
I've read it and re-read it - and still I think its bad!
It's made me so delirious that I dont think I can even spell EBA anymore!
Maybe it's Hypoxia from my really really really long duty under the new EBA - yeah - that must be it!
Dont worry about me though - I will just have a quick 5 hour nap in this Aircraft parked on the tarmac in the middle of nowhere - that will have me all rested up!

I will just crack the doors and let some air in - dont want it to be too hot in here!

:eek:

[KittyBlue]

re: huge profit

A major reason why VB has made a huge profit, is that they hedged the jet fuel at (using a nonspecific figure) $60 a barrel thou budgeted $80 so every barrel used they profited $20 dollars.

So the profit as such is more a saving than anything else. Hedging only started recently that why there is an increase of $$$$. Funnily enough the share price sky rocketed above the initial float price.

[Ol Shep]

If nothing changes then you cannot be forced to accept any lowering of conditions...........i.e it cannot get any worse than it is now!

Greenslopes, how can you make a statement like this?

Have you not read the papers and heard the real life stories lately? Have you not heard of Workchoices? Overnight you can be put in a position to accept a lowering of conditions, take it or leave it, under Workchoices. They don't call it coercion, they call it restructuring by rescinding your current agreement replaced by AWAs. Why do you think the State govts have set up the Fair Go Hotline, because it is truly happening. Think about your EBA proposal carefully.

Don't worry about the line "there is no alternative if this isn't accepted" as dictated by the Co.........................look what has/and hasn't changed since the pilots rejected their proposed EBA Doc.

We pilots have a different argument which protects us from the federal MINIMUM, cabin crew are not so lucky. If you don't believe me then check for yourself - the federal minimum Workchoices standards. You seem worried that your sick leave is reduced by 5 days to new comers but your union seems to have retained you 21 days a year total. Do you know what the federal minimum is? John Howard hasn't even heard of URTI leave!

Most clauses which I've read seem to have rolled over into the new EBA without too much change except your Operations part. The table is more lenient than most on offer round the world. The rostering table is even better. The union has managed to keep your required hours to below the Workchoices minimum of an average 38 hour week plus whatever overtime you are expected to do for the love of it! instead of Workchoices 152 hour 4 week period, you only have to work somewhere between 125-140hours maximum and you get paid overtime too. There's no overtime penalty payments in Workchoices. And you kept your 6weeks annual leave-hold on to that one and don't let Workchoices rule!

A NO vote is not a solution to better conditions, a NO vote may indeed pave the way for the lowering of conditions you speak of. Don't be fooled by people who haven't done research outside of simply saying what they like and don't like about the agreement. You should maybe look a little further down the track what will a NO vote bring?

[sinala1]

Hello Ol_Shep, welcome to Pprune - I see thats your first post - its not often we get a Virgin Blue "pilot" posting in our EBA discussions, so welcome aboard :ok:

Could I ask a favour - you seem to be quite educated on the WorkChoices legislation and its potential application to Cabin Crew - perhaps you could post links to the information you are referring to? I would be quite interested in reading it - particularly the reference you make to rescinding current agreements and replacing them with AWA's.

Interesting also to note that the comparisons you are making under the WorkChoices legislation are mostly to Ground jobs. I doubt Mr Howard is familiar with URTI, but thats not his job to be familiar with it - thats where the FAAA (or, in your case, as I am sure you are aware, being a pilot and all - the AFAP) and our union delegates negotiate on our behalf to have conditions relevant to our employment included in the agreement. Granted under an AWA this may not be the case - however, as mentioned earlier, I would really like to read the specifics of the ability of a company to rescind a currently active Certified Agreement, that was lodged under the Workplace Relations Act (1996) prior to the introduction of the Workchoices Legislation.

Thanks for that, its much appreciated - just more reading for me - its certainly been an interesting & educating few days! :O

[runway 25]

Hey Team,

Glad to hear that there is a healthy discussion about this topic!

After reading the EBA - (like most) I am feeling a little let down. It seems that a big issue to us is trust. The fact that a lot of the lingo leaves many grey areas, and a lot of things open to interpretation. The interpretation of these grey areas has always been different depending on the day and the person reading the document. We need things to be clearly defined in black and white! I for one do not trust the "we will endeavour" line!

at this point I am thinking better the devil you know.

Its a no for me......:ugh:

[runway 25]

Guys & Girls,

As for the employment of casuals, be afraid, as it is already happening.

Recruitment and training of casuals has taken place in SYD for "relief crew". Before you say, but we already have relief crew, this is different. These crew are not employed by Virgin Blue, nor do they work for VB on a daily basis (i.e. contracted in a regional port). Yes these guys are Aerocare, but they do not have any experience with VB nor do they work in a ground staff role for VB. They are just on call for sickness and disruptions.... I smell the big red rat! I think that is what we are all afraid of!

:{ :mad: :=

[joepatroni]

I am not crew but work for virgin tech. Hope all you girls and guys get it sorted as it affects us as engineers as well.
Missing all you girls at the bottom of the stairs at L2.:O

[Ol Shep]

Fair Go Hotline is 1300 737 841.

-current good conditions like sick leave and URTIs were contained in awards which unions put a case forward for and were awarded by the government
-under Workchoices all award conditions have been stripped back to the MINIMUM standard of 5 things-see Office of Employment Advocate www.oea.gov.au (http://www.oea.gov.au)
-the unions can only hang on to conditions when they are supported by the majority
-once you reject an agreement, all things negotiated are off the table, and the company may start again with the bare MINIMUM literally!

I've seen it happen to all the staff-ground staff & flight attendants-in another airline. Believe me, there's no negotiation because there's no law that says an employer has to bargain in good faith-see www.actu.com.au (http://www.actu.com.au) search 'good faith'.

My advice is get good sound advice and stick together.

[Wingletts]

well guys, from an ex cabin crew perspective things are looking very interesting for you all.. from what I can gleem I think I'd be giving it the big no too!:ugh:
I just hope everyone pops on their reality hats, and reads and re-reads..and takes some wordly advice fromy those who have been around a while and know what they status quo has been and could be!
For the newbies to the company -think about it intelligently..it's not just your average job..you have to vote for conditions that will protect your JOB and that is your LIFESTYLE .
Remember you are working with some experienced crew who have fought hard to protect your working conditions in the past.They know the benefits and pitfalls of it all.
I am all for productivity and company success, but not at the expense of its employees.Things have sure changed alot since the day i first set foot on a red jet..
Remember you all deserve only the best ...good luck:ok:

[NZ boi]

At Air NZ our policy leaves it up to individual crew ,if we thk its un safe we can sit down and normal stop serving hot drinks but no requirement unless it gets servre then the Capt will make a Pa asking crew to be seated...

[crewbus]

Has anyone been to the roadshows, and is the EBA still as bad as what we think?

[737NG_Girl]

Ol_Shep thankyou for posting that information, but it still does not answer the question of how a currently active certified agreement can be rescinded? My understanding was that if a no vote is returned, everyone remains on the current agreement OR can be offered an AWA if the company went down that path - but you cannot be forced to sign it.

[Ol Shep]

It would not be smart to discuss the options available on a public forum. Ring the Hotline and get advice regarding the Workplace Relations Act 1996 - Application to terminate a pre-reform certified agreements.

[KittyBlue]

Well, I have now read the eba 12 times from start to finish. Im convinced that its not really in anyones best interest including the companyn to implement this proposal. I envisage that 6 months after ( if it is accepted) there will be many aircraft sitting on the tarmac with out crew to crew them as they would have quit due to exhaustion and sheer dislike for the company. I am amazed that how many pilots (respected opinions) have said that this proposed eba is worse off than the flight crew eba.

I think we may beat that 87% no vote with 90%.

The biggest thing is that we all need to vote, either YES or NO, we all need to vote to get the message through.

Kittyblue now will not post anymore until April when the results are in.

Good luck and see you on the other side.

Kb :eek:

[flytheplanemay]

I have been to one of the roadshows, and lets just say that after listening, the EBA is not as bad as what I first thought.

[Wingletts]

off course its not as bad !....afterall that's what roadshows are designed to do ...they are otherwise known as "pro shows".Do you think they spent all that money making a DVD on the eba for nothing?

careful thinking and intelligent analysis of the facts is always a good thing

[Lewis AAC]

Do many Virgin Blue crew commute?

[EBA_Babylon]

I'm a newbie to this forum, but hi y'all - it's great there's some out there that care about this EBA as much as I do.
For reasons previously stated by others in this forum, I agree this EBA isn't so great. I've yet to attend a roadshow (next week) but I'm open to what they have to say. I plan my vote to be an educated one. However, I'm sure it will be positive spins on everthing I believe to be not so great in this EBA- just like in the "new to Faq's" letter I recieved in the mail today. It's all so glossy I almost want to change my vote to yes! I would love for this EBA to be all that, but when I re-read the actual EBA and am reminded that it's not.
Part time is a cruncher for me - I need it but not at the great expense of conditions and work rules. And in the words of our DM's - any Part time allocated after EBA is signed through is only temporary -to be revised after the first 12months! They insist they've taken out all the grey area's but instead they've camoflaged them print in pretty pictures, too many words and best case scenario's!
Of course one could base your vote by just flicking through the easy-reading 2-page EBA highlights document whilst relaxing watching the "DVD"- and save your self 3 hours of reading of the real thing... a sure fire way to a yes majority!

[ccguy]

Hey guys, hate to say this, but Ol_shep is right on the money. I have spoken to several people about this Workchoices and they have all said the same thing. If this EBA is not passed then we may be heading down the road of a Workplace agreement and it can and possibly be worse than what is on the table and we wont be able to negotiate. I am still trying to obtain more information on it via the Workchoices website. Seriously consider how your future can be effected. All I say is I don't want it to be any worse than what we have been provided with. And if you read the FAQ's that were received yesterday, Q3 states that we legally dont have a right to a second chance to vote and we may end up with a WPA that is definitely not favourable and our current EBA could be rescinded. Lots of food for thought people. I certainly dont want to have considerably less than we have right now.

[avery]

As our last EBA was negotiated under the old industrial laws, they cannot force us to sign a AWA. Our old EBA conditions will apply until replaced. Once, we've signed a new one, we then operate under Workchoices, and next time round, we can then be forced onto AWAs.

If you are not going to read the entire document, then at least look at these sections - Section 3.1 (last paragraph) Section 4.1.1 (b & c), Section 6.11 (h & i).

Why do you think that we got the glossy document, 2-page summary and propaganda DVD?? No one else in the company did. Perhaps they think we are too stupid to really look at what is being offered and will just be swayed into voting yes by all the pretty colours. Let's not prove them right...

[EBA_Babylon]

Avery- Here, here! :D Sometimes I wonder who might be reading and writing in this forum, particularly those stating basicly, this is as good as we're going to get, and to be careful (as in- don't vote no) as you'll be on AWA's before you know it. Sounds like management if you ask me! I re-read your points made and I agree, (although 6.1.1 - I couldn't find, am I missing a page or was that a typo? ) and every time I read over the doc I find something else lurking in the background to take advantage of the fact that alot of crew will just "gloss" over thier glossy document!


In regards to changes to sick leave- this is quoted from the FAAA update #23 explanatory notes:


1. What is supporting documentation?

A medical certificate from a health practitioner registered or licensed under a state or territory law. A registered health practitioner can only issue a medical certificate in respect of the area of practice in which that practitioner is registered or licensed. If it is not reasonably practicable for you to obtain a medical certificate for a period of sick leave, then a statutory declaration may be provided. For example, a statutory declaration could be provided where you are unable to make an appointment with their medical practitioner on a particular day.

Does this mean we are required to see thier doctors only to aquire a medical certificate if we're sick? hmmm....

[Gpik]

Hi guys can you tell me when VB are due to get their Embraer aircraft? Cheers

[Ol Shep]

Thanks ccguy. And no, I'm not management. I have been through various EBAs and AWAs personally, so wanted to pass on what knowledge I have gathered along the way, from experts on the law.

As our last EBA was negotiated under the old industrial laws, they cannot force us to sign a AWA. Our old EBA conditions will apply until replaced. Once, we've signed a new one, we then operate under Workchoices, and next time round, we can then be forced onto AWAs.

At this stage the law says, you can't be coerced on to AWAs. Your last EBA has expired and how long before you will be offered an AWA is anyone's guess, depends how many vote it down I suspect-if it's a resounding NO towards the company and the union, then I guess it will be fairly soon after the vote. Under the old laws there was a "no disadvantage test" which protected you from going no lower than a similar Award. That's gone under the new laws. If you refuse to sign an AWA offered, then there is no Award or no disadvantage test that can save you, you automatically only have the federal minimum as a safety net-$511 a week, no overtime penalties, 10 days sick leave, 5 weeks annual leave, 52 weeks unpaid parental leave, average 38hrs a week-th'th'that's all folks!! 5 things is all that has to be in an Agreement! (for professional staff, the $511 a week doesn't apply but everything else does) That's right-no such things as part time, roster requests, paid mat. leave, 140hrs max. a month, minimum rest between flights, roster stability etc. etc. At least for some of our work conditions CASA looks after pilots, but for Flight Attendants this has been protected for years by Awards which the FAAA fought for. All that work that unions achieved, has been overturned by the new laws-the Awards are now worthless with the no disadvantage test gone!

If you return to your last EBA, what are you going to do about pay increases? You have to trade to get increases on an EBA. You only get CPI if you go all the way downhill to the federal minimum.


Does this mean we are required to see thier doctors only to aquire a medical certificate if we're sick? hmmm....


The law protects you here. You even seem to be mistrusting that your union has got it wrong. The unions are the ones who've managed to protect you from working more than 140hrs a month and 21 days a year sick leave for about 20 years, maybe longer I'm not sure. Why do you suddenly not trust them? Well from what I've read, they've got it right, you can read it for yourselves on www.workchoices.gov.au (http://www.workchoices.gov.au) Employee Fact Sheet on Personal Leave/Carer's Leave.

Make sure you get advice from experts to protect yourself, I did, especially if you don't trust anyone. If you can't afford to pay, then ring the Fair Go Hotline for free.

[EBA_Babylon]

Our first aicraft arrives in August to be online by October. the rest to follow:O

[smile]

HI Guys,

I have now been to one of the forums and believe I have a much better understanding of this proposed EBA. I see how certain decisions were made in regards to where we lost on a condition or gained on a condition. It really is a big balancing act.

Taking into account that we are all adults, and are happy to look at both sides of the picture I would like you encourage you to look at the EBA over the next few days and post what you DO and DON'T like about the proposal.

I am sure that we all have different needs so ensuring that we make the most informed decision is of a high priority. I would hate to think that I have misinterpreted a condition and voted the wrong way because of it.

:O Positive- the Cabin Crew Consultative Committee- These guys will meet to rectify any issues that arise out of this EBA. If something is not safe, being interpreted many different ways or not implemented the way it was intended the CCC will work at fixing it.

:( Negative- We now pay for our passport and visa costs- however we can retrieve part of the cost as a tax deduction. I also figure that if I was negotiating this EBA this would be one of the first things I would be willing to trade for something better.

:( Negative- the company has the right to Transfer us between bases. Remember that this is not a new clause (old EBA part 18) although it is a little scary. I can take comfort in the fact that this is a very costly exercise for the company so wouldn't be done just for the fun of it. And I have to trust that they would ask for volunteers first because they would lose quite a few crew members if they didn't.

:( Negative - Maximum term Cabin Crew- look at Qantas - scary.

:O :( - mixed- I was told personally by one of our FAAA reps (about 6months ago) that CS's would be getting quite a good pay rise so I was disappointed not to see that. However on the up side it is good to see other things in the EBA (ie hourly rates and maternity leave) being worked out by our total salary rather than just the base.

:O Productivity and Gain share- Lets face it we don't have to do anything extra for these.

:O Rest break penalties work out marginally better

:O Acting CS pay is much better

:confused: Not sure how the optional days and drafting situation will work out. I guess only time will tell if the PBS system cuts down on the need for calling so many crew out to cover sick leave.

[smile]

:O Depending on the trip these meal allowances work either way. My last few rosters show me coming out ahead under the new system. I was actually pretty surprised!! (Remember - that we don't get o/night allowances for day trips, so we haven't lost anything there. And WE WILL be losing o/night payment for red-eyes either way. It turns out that this is illegal and the ATO is onto it- this is not the company just being mean)

:O Whilst the notification has been extended by one hour for calling in sick- the term "unforseen circumstances" has been added. It looks like we can no longer get into trouble if we call in under this time because of last minute issues.

:O I like that we can cash out one weeks annual leave.

:O I like that you no longer get penalised for doing ground duties whilst pregnant. You get paid at your current rate of pay. (Not the measly $15/ hours it is at the moment). And the option to extend your mat leave is handy if you can afford it.

:O Leave of absence is a good addition.

:(:O We can work quite a few extra hours than we are doing now- but we will be getting monthly overtime for them. (Remember that the PBS is coming in either way. This system is a roster optimisation system so you can also say good-bye to the 120hours under the current system. We will be getting maxed out rosters either way. From what I understand the flexibility built into the proposed EBA allows the PBS to better suit our bids, whereas the current EBA's rules may make getting your bids a little harder).

:O I was a little annoyed at the non-credit training clause in the beginning. However It is balanced out by the fact that our 10 days off per month have not been pro-rated to suit the 28day rosters. We actually work out to be 5 days ahead for the year. I have also seen rosters that include these non-credit days and they really aren't that bad. There are also conditions built into the system to ensure we don't get flogged around these training days (ie still plenty of time to study for EP's) (and if they need to train us for more than 2days in any one month- those days DO count towards our credit hours)

:O I know that looking at the daily duty hour limitation tables are quite scary! They are some very long days. However just remember that the average hours per day is about 7.2. So not all days will be long days. You can also bid under the PBS system to avoid long days. And.... if you are feeling tired or fatigued you can have your duty changed or be offloaded. This is something the company will be taking very seriously (I am guessing to avoid any legal issues).

:O Happy that we can not sign on before 0600 after a day off.

:O Happy with the duty hour credits we get for stand-by duties.


:O Very Very Very happy with the increased percentage of part-time positions. This should help the lists move quite well. (Please note that the Union did say that this will probably be the first negotiating point if this EBA gets voted down.)




Sorry to every-one that this is so long winded- but it has been a little therapeutic for me to write it all down to help with my decision.

Disclaimer- ok so spelling a grammar may not be the best- that’s not the point here. Also…………. This is how the EBA looks to ME- I am not pretending to know best.

Love SMILE

[Ol Shep]

Thanks ccguy. To others, no I’m not management, I’ve personally been through EBAs as well as AWAs and want to pass on the knowledge I’ve gathered along the way.

As our last EBA was negotiated under the old industrial laws, they cannot force us to sign a AWA. Our old EBA conditions will apply until replaced. Once, we've signed a new one, we then operate under Workchoices, and next time round, we can then be forced onto AWAs.

The law under the old laws and new laws state, you cannot be coerced to sign an AWA. Your last EBA has expired and yes you may get to stay on this for a while. It’s anyone’s guess how long it will take before a no vote causes a company to come back to you with some alternate workplace agreement. Don’t forget in the meantime, if it a while there’s no more increases-you stay stagnant. And before you argue CPI, this is only for workers on Awards or on the federal minimum wage. True-you could refuse to sign the second agreement but under the new laws-what happens to you. Under the old laws you would end up on an Award or no worse off than an Award as your safety net-that’s how a lot of your current conditions ended up in your last EBA. Under the new laws the “no disadvantage test” has gone. You could end up on the federal minimum standard-$511 a week, average 38 hours a week (152 in 4 weeks) 5 weeks annual leave, 10 days sick leave, 52 weeks unpaid parental leave. Pilots can escape the $511 minimum because they are professional staff and their flight duty limits and rest are determined by CASA-so don’t listen to pilot’s advice unless they know what you can lose under Workchoices. So, why are you suddenly not trusting your union when they are the only ones for the last 20 years, maybe longer I’m not sure, who have fought for eg. 140hrs max a month, daily rostering limits and then max on the day, minimum rest, right to roster requests, paid mat leave, part time, etc. etc. CASA doesn’t regulate flight attendants. Where there’s no Award they often use the same limits as pilots-ie. can force you up to 90 hours in 14 days. If you think the tables in your agreement are bad, check out www.casa.gov.au/aoc/fatigue (http://www.casa.gov.au/aoc/fatigue) std exemptions Part III-and these are rostered limits!

If you don’t trust anyone anymore, then at least protect yourself, pay for the advice and if you don’t have the money, ring the Fair Go Hotline to check for yourself.

Does this mean we are required to see thier doctors only to aquire a medical certificate if we're sick? hmmm....

No, the law protects you here. The union has got it right. If you don’t believe anyone then check it out for yourself on www.workchoices.gov.au (http://www.workchoices.gov.au/) Employee Fact Sheet on Personal/Carer’s Leave.

[Brisvegasboy]

Hi Guys,

I am quite concerned that quite a few people are going to the Roadshows and coming out the other side having changed their NO vote to a YES......

Of COURSE the company is popping rose coloured glasses on everyone as they walk through the door - this EBA is most definitely to their advantage - yes, agreed that there are a FEW things in there that are positive for crew, but overall, the document is much more in favour of the company than the crew.

One doesn't have to venture too far into the EBA to see the first and one of the most concerning flaws......that at anytime, if a particular clause isn't in the best interest of the business, with ONE FAAA delegates approval, that clause can be changed. It then goes on to add that if the business feels that the FAAA is being unreasonable in saying no (to an alteration), they can change it anyway. (Please, if someone has the EBA handy and can quote the exact clause, I would be most grateful)

I mean, what is the point of even having an EBA when this is the case???

Thoughts........

:mad:

[smile]

Brisvegasboy you have just high-lighted the biggest problem with this EBA negotiation- one I know I have been guility. Assuming a clause or condition means something that it does not. Or adding your own ending on to suit your agenda. The exact wording of the clause you are looking for is.................

Clause 2.3- Dealing With Special Circumstances
Where special circumstances arise which have the capacity to impact on our business we may need to vary the terms of this Agreement.
Any such variation will be through the provision of a dispensation issued by an accredited representative of the FAAA. Any request for a dispensation will not be unresonably withheld where it is sought.

Sorry BV BOY but I cannot find the part of the clause that says Virgin can go ahead and do what they want if they don't get the dispensation.


Please be very careful when reading this EBA. It is too easy to turn something into something it is not. Before this EBA came out I recommended to my crew that they DO listen to the gossip- then grab out thier individual copy of the EBA and see if what the gossip says is true or just a load of made up BS.


Also to put your mind at ease- I didn't just walk in one door of the forum and then walk out the other end brainwashed. I hammered them with questions. I sat there from beginning to way past the end- 4hours in total. When everyone else was leaving I was still asking questions and seeking clarification. I even asked to see extra data above what they were showing at the forum- and this request was met pretty quickly.

[avery]

So many points to address, so little time! Although I disagree with some of Ol' Shep's interpretations on Workchoices, it makes sense to research this area for yourself - possibly getting something in writing from the FAAA on how the process goes.

Smile, I agree with you that many clauses in the proposed EBA are open to interpretation, which in itself is a problem. You really need to consider worst-case scenarios as well as best-case scenarios, I really think it is being idealistic to presume that the agreement will always be carried out in the 'best intent'. If that were to be the case, it would be written that way, not have so many loopholes.

In regards to the 'Cabin Crew Consultative Committee', I don't mean to be cynical, but really I think that is a total waste of time. Ask any pilot if the PWC has any real power.

Aside from all of the nitty gritty, to insinuate that we may be subject to minimum wages etc, is fairly ridiculous. It makes no sense that Virgin would want angry, disgruntled crew, a higher-turnover rate and be unable to attract high calibre applicants. Economics 101 operates here - supply and demand. Crew and the company need to meet somewhere in the middle of their 'wish lists', so both are content and getting what they want.

It is in everyone's best interests to agree and sign an EBA for stability's sake - just make sure you are educated and happy with what you are signing. It's pretty unlikely that if a document crew rate as a 4/10 gets resoundingly voted down, that the company will come back with one rated a 2/10.

Oh, and let's not stress too much about AWAs, before they are really an issue, Rudd will be PM anyway! x

[vista]

Ol_Shep,




We pilots have a different argument which protects us from the federal MINIMUM, cabin crew are not so lucky

Could you please explain the different argument, because my understanding is the only argument you have is you will all find other jobs : The same as the cabin crew will.

At this stage the law says, you can't be coerced on to AWAs. Your last EBA has expired and how long before you will be offered an AWA is anyone's guess, depends how many vote it down I suspect-if it's a resounding NO towards the company and the union, then I guess it will be fairly soon after the vote.

Correct!, the company can offer AWA’s, but no one has to sign one and will continue on present conditions until they have agreed to something else.

Smile,

Could approval come from the same FAAA rep who let this into the EBA :


3.1 Your Role as a Virgin Blue Cabin Crew Member

As a Virgin Blue Cabin Crew member your are the face of our brand and business. Our commitment to Safety and Guest Service is demonstrated through your professional behaviour. Given the safety critical nature of this role and the fact that you perform it away from our main work areas, it is important that we are able to establish and maintain a high degree of trust and confidence in you.

This role requires that you be available to work within 24-hour/7 day a week roster. This includes working the full range of duties rostered or assigned on weekdays, weekends and public holidays.

The nature of our operation is such that your duties can be disrupted by a variety of factors beyond our control. In order to ensure that we are able to continue to operate efficiently during these periods and meet the needs of our guests, we require a high degree of flexibility from you. Whilst we will aim to provide you with some stability around when and how you work, it is important that you understand that your roster may need to be changed in order for us to meet our operational requirements.


By the nature of this statement, the company can do what they want and no one can do anything about it. There are no boundaries!

[vista]

One more thing,
Remember how the company said the approval for 4 cabin crew was only going to be used for abnormal circumstances (1 crew member sick). That was in December, how many are they rostering now....?

Look at what they have done in the past , nothing has changed!

[smile]

Vista,

The dynamic nature of our industry and in turn our job requires flexibility. We have always and will always continue to be required to change our day at a moments notice because of factors out of our control; including aircraft going tech, diversions, and cancellations of flights. I know I have ended up in a different port because my duty has been changed due to one of these circumstances, I have even had my day cut short on a couple of occasions. That is just part of my job!!

Could you imagine the chaos if there was no flexibility- it would take weeks to get schedules back on time due to fog in MEL.


If this is something you are not happy with perhaps you need to reassess if this industry is for you. I can assure you that this is one condition that will NEVER EVER be taken out of the EBA. No matter how many times we vote 'no'.

[Wingletts]

yes... you may have to bend with the wind for the sake of your company..BUT how far you are required to bend is totally at the discrestion of the company you work for..
lets face it..how far can you really be expected to bend for the company and not be totally exploited..
there has to be some give and take and the line has to be clearly drawn in the sand.
that clause leaves it all to open interprtation and yes things have been changed at moments notice in the past! Everyone needs stability and some constants in their workplace.

[avery]

Exactly!

I am all for giving 100% at work and appreciate that flexibility can and often is required. But there is a limit, VB do not own you, at the end of the day - they are just your employer. Everyone needs some stability in their life and the ground-rules need to be clear.

This document is full of the words require and must when it comes to employee roles and responsibilities and and lots of aim and endeavours when it comes to employer responsibilities.

[lowerlobe]

Smile…The problem with any contract is it’s ambiguity. If it was black and white there would be no problems but with most, both parties can argue that they interpret a clause to mean two different things.

The clause you posted is a point in case..

“Clause 2.3- Dealing With Special Circumstances
Where special circumstances arise which have the capacity to impact on our business we may need to vary the terms of this Agreement.
Any such variation will be through the provision of a dispensation issued by an accredited representative of the FAAA. Any request for a dispensation will not be unresonably withheld where it is sought”

The first section alone is open to interpretation.What are special circumstances?

Basically, anything can be argued to affect or impact on the business.

Does than mean the cost of fuel going up and therefore their cost base is a special circumstance?

Does this mean they can increase your hours to raise productivity or give you less days off?

The best part though is the last sentence..A dispensation will not be unreasonably withheld…

What is the definition of the term unreasonable?

Whose definition is that?

What will probably happen if the crew and the company are at odds over who is being unreasonable?

Smile. Your last line “Sorry BV BOY but I cannot find the part of the clause that says Virgin can go ahead and do what they want if they don't get the dispensation”…… this contradicts that very last line of the clause that you posted.

In that clause they have just said that if they feel they have requested a reasonable variation it will not be withheld.

This is like an each way bet…”Here is your EBA HOWEVER…. IF something changes we want to be able to change your award.

If VB are of the opinion that they are being denied a reasonable variation who is to argue?

I doubt crew are going to be able to argue in court against the legal team that VB could assemble.

[Brisvegasboy]

Thanks Lowerlobe, my point exactly - I just hope smile hasn't been to one of these Roadshows and had her mind changed by just having the positives presented....

Sinala1 - where r u? I heard you were at the unplugged the other day....

Voting opens very soon - get your NO votes in asap if you want to avoid massive days, minimum rest, fewer overnights.....the list goes on......

[wirgin blew]

I have to say that I am starting to see the light just as smile is. At the end of the day you will not work more than 130 hours per 28 days which is exactly the same as it is now. If you do 10 hour days you will work 13 days and have 15 off. 15 days off x13 rosters is 195 days off a year and they only want you to come in on 5 of them for training. Currently those 15 days off would consist of 5 available days which you had to sit around at home waiting to be called or denominate which alot of people didnt understand how that worked.
So if you do 10 hour days you will be getting an extra 75 days off that you get to choose whether you work as optional or you get to sit on the beach.
--
Next the 3% pay rise is slightly less than CPI but we are being given an extra 2% as long as the company makes profit. Nothing else required. We dont even have to sell anything for it. So if the company goes well as it is doing at the moment we get 5%. We also get the commissions which I know you all say isnt much but its at least another 1-2% of base for doing our jobs.
If your a CS put your propel in and you get another 1% taking you folks up to 7-8% increase for doing your job.
--
The PBS is the best thing that is being offered for us. Once it is in and working we will have something that will get us more of what we want. You will be basically writing your own roster 80-90% of the time. If you have a bad roster the next 2 have to be great with the satisfaction system. I trust that Bec and Jack got honest answers from WestJet Crew who do the same job as us. I know there are some doubts about VB and computer software but BlueCheck and WebCheck are working great the majority of the time so I hope that the PBS will as well.
--
I know you think I have turned and we can get a better deal but at least we know what is on offer here. If we turn this down anything could happen. Even under the existing EBA we are asking for it. The roster optimiser can give us all 140 duty hours per month and they will just use relief crew to fill the gaps at the end of the month when we run out of hours. We can be rostered 12 hour days with a paxing sector, with unlimited sectors. We can be given min rest on every overnight. Do you want me to go on.

[Brisvegasboy]

Currently, the EBA we have is black and white.....too (WAY TOO) many grey areas in the new document that the company can scr!% us on....

Do you REALLY want to do BNE-DRW returns, BNE-PER returns, (therefore less overnights,less money) four sector MEL-BNE days etc etc etc......??

Ad-Hocs working more hours, overall much less better off (don't listen to what is being sold to you - not correct!)

Do you REALLY think you will be able to basically write your own roster?? Come on, please.....

The company can basically change what they want, when they want - look at the last few posts.....

And they keep on saying that we need to 'trust them'.....DO YOU?????

:mad:

[crewbus]

Hi all

Well I went to a roadshow, and I came out feeling really positive about the new EBA, and decided to change my vote to a yes vote.

[crewbus]

I then re read the document without management and the FAAA backing up every single thing they said, and have decided to stick to my original decision, after being reminded of all the endeavours, will aim to, and howevers!

[notalwayssunny]

to those of you who have read the eba properly and made an informed decision.

I will also be voting yes.

[EBA_Babylon]

Is everyone aware that voting has been pushed back to the 24th to make way for more roadshows? :bored:

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

just wishing you all good luck for your EBA negotiations. we held out for ours at JQ and voted no for the first round, conditions pretty much remained the same though minus one or two points that were reclarified or changed to our liking (mat. leave etc). I think every EBA we get is never going to be as good as the current one, due to the change in the whole airline industry, so although hold out for what you want, dont go in with unrealistic expectations - the airline will want some kind of cost reduction.. every airline does.

Its an awful time for some though, because its full of uncertainty and knowing you are leaving an EBA you dont mind working on is hard..

Good Luck!

[EBA_Babylon]

wirgin blew-

At the end of the day you will not work more than 130 hours per 28 days which is exactly the same as it is now.

not to be picky, but here's an slice from the new eba:
6.2.1 Roster Hours
Full time flying rosters will be built between 125 and 135 duty credit hours.

6.4.2 Additional Overtime Hours
a. You may be required to perform additional overtime hours beyond 130 hours in a roster. This may be as a result of roster build, delay, disruption, re-assignment, addition to duties, extension to duties, or call-out from standby. These hours do not include non credit training hours and work on designated days off/optional days.
b. As a full time Cabin Crew member we may require you to perform additional overtime hours up to 140 hours in a roster.

a. If you reach 130 hours during a trip or duty, you are required to complete the remainder of that trip or duty.



A roster being 28 days not 30 or 31, of course.

If I choose to do my job without the 10+ hour days, (because lets face it they're a killer- not something you could do on a regular basis, day in day out) spread my hours over the 18 day's, I'd get 10 days off. Fair. do 9h days get 10 days off, 3 optional days.

However, not taking into account any form of leave-

1680 (140x12rosters) is currently the max hours we can do in a year that we have control over (ie denom avails) ,

1820 (140x13rosters)is the hours proposed, but then there's the addition of 5 training days up to 9 hours, bringing it to 1901 hours.

So essentially 1901 hours / 13 is infact 146.23hours is our maximum for the 28 days, in thoery.

Then there is the argument of the ofset of 5 extra days off. So lets give credit of 5x 4h38m (23h10m) thats still leaves roughly 1881 hours in the year, 144.69 hours a month. Almost 15 hours more than the supposed 130hours in 28 days!

The thing is, is that even though *most* of these extra hours are being paid in overtime, you actually don't have a choice but to do the overtime. As a CS I already do to much overtime, it's just not paid for.

Propel at times taking longer than 5 hours, reading and replying to emails, revisions, online training modules like live2air and KOWF, meetings with DM's before/after duty's, reports-catering, flight, hazard,action sheets etc, 15min sign offs that are never within 15 mins.

I personally would like a choice in saying no to over time (not everyone wants it remember) and there's no choice if 6.2.1 applies.

And what of CS duty credit hours fo propel? How does the following statement read?

a. Cabin Supervisor flying rosters and standby rosters will contain duty credit hours for performance monitoring duties which are to be conducted outside of rostered duty hours. Full time Cabin Supervisors will receive 5 duty credit hours. Part time Cabin Supervisors will receive 2.5 duty credit hours. This will be pro rated where pre-approved leave is published within a roster.

Is the 5 hours duty credit in addition to the possible 135 hours I have been rostered? is my overtime to 140 hours (clause 6.4.2.b) including the 5 hours propel? Could I be doing 140 hours plus 2 days training(2x9 hours not including paxing!) plus 5 hours propel (total 163) plus all the extra time I spend at work to do my job well in 28 days?

Again so many negatives keep me on the no side of the vote, but please, I am open to feedback so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong...:ooh:

[EBA_Babylon]

And that last calculation of 163 hours in 28 days didn't include working optional days!

[wirgin blew]

EBA Babylon: I can see where you are coming from once you add up your days work. BUT as a CS you are probably doing between 150-160 hours per month with availables, so the 140x12 isnt quite right anyway. I would say 155x12=1860 and this doesnt even include all the suplementary stuff that you were talking about. Lets say another 5 hours a month free of charge taking you to 1920 hours per annum.
Under the new system at least they are recognising the fact that you need to do paperwork/propel and once you hit 130 you will be getting x1.5 ($42 per hour), as opposed to the available rate you are getting now.
Also dont forget about the fatigue management hours and limitations. I am yet to work out exactly how many hours you can do in a month before that stops you from working anymore.
--
Please forgive me if I am starting to sound like management its just the more I talk about it the more open to change my mind is becoming.

[EBA_Babylon]

BUT as a CS you are probably doing between 150-160 hours per month with availables, so the 140x12 isnt quite right anyway. I would say 155x12=1860

Just for clarification I was using the example with denominated availables, as previously mentioned. As did I use the new eba calcs for hours without optional day hours. or standby.Vurrently, If one is pushing the 140 duty limit for the calender month then you are unable to work any further avl hours unless it is nominated.So there is no forced overtime if you have denominated with adequate notice in the month. Maximum hours is 140. It's there to protect.

The example was used to point out that under new rules, sure there's the fatigue management component, however it still states that 140hours can be *required* of you (of course with overtime payable, but :)at the price of choice) with the training days, optional/day off overtime and propel in addition to these hours. it's a running tally. The current max 140hr is much more appealing to me. Of course I would be okay with the rules to up the hours to possible to work in 28days, but only if crew with the choice of taking the OT or not.

btw, wirgin, I'm still trying to be as educated on this as I can , so any takes on this eba whether it be yes or no is benificial, to myself and others who may be reading.:rolleyes:

[KittyBlue]

(apologies for the length of the document)

Here is a word from a Flight crew member:

While I do see a few items of benefit, I have written the following points down with the view of "if we vote yes to this EBA, what is the worst that the company can do to me". I.e. how hard will I have to work and how poor a lifestyle will I have. Of course there is no guarantee that the company will work you to the max., but we must look at the worst case scenario to get an accurate picture of how life will be in the future.
CAUTION: Please read the note below for section 1.7 regarding explanatory notes.


Section
Para.
Comments
1.3

"…time change of not more than 3 hours from Eastern Standard Time or Eastern Daylight Summer Time" …. Why include both times? It would be more simple to say "Brisbane Time", however using the words that are in the EBA document allows the company much more lee-way in deciding where you can go. E.g. in summer, Perth is 3 hours different from Brisbane (EST) but only 2 hours different from Sydney (ESST). Is the deciding time based on your base or your starting point that day?

1.4
1st
This agreement will be "… progressively introduced with the intention….". No time-scale is given for each stage of the implementation, and no guarantee that it will even be fully introduced in 6 months – this is only their intention. I would expect the longer duty and flight times to be introduced first, well before you as crew get any meaningful access to the PBS for lifestyle. Note also that there is no penalty on the company for not implementing everything within 6 months – why not when you still have no lifestyle?
1.4
2nd
"Virgin Blue and the FAAA shall meet and confer ….". Why do the crew not get any input as to the timing of the implementation??? What if the FAAA representative ‘sells you out’ and allows the company free reign???
1.5
1st
"It replaces and excludes all awards, orders of industrial commissions and industrial agreements …. that would otherwise apply to cabin crew". This seems far too powerful a statement to put in without getting a legal interpretation. What does the company intend to introduce later that they require this all-powerful statement?
1.5
2nd
"It excludes all state laws …..". Why? What about unfair dismissal laws – which are not covered by paragraph 1.8 ‘Anti-discrimination’.
1.6

This paragraph stops you, the FAAA or any other body that replaces the FAAA from "pursuing any additional claims …" This includes allowances that you feel you should be entitled to under changes to your work rules. E.g. the change to 4 cabin crew on an 800 aircraft should have attracted extra allowances due to the extra work, but this paragraph ensures that you cannot claim anything extra. See next point.

1.7
2nd
"…any matter or employment condition whether covered by this agreement or not." Here the company has conveniently allowed themselves to change anything and everything to do with your employment , without any requirement to pay you for it. E.g. they could change your monthly hours to 240 hours and not be required to pay you overtime or anything above a normal salary.
1.7
3rd

NOTE:
This clause states that "explanatory notes" will be made available to assist "in understanding how it (EBA) is to be applied" though not forming part of this EBA. These explanatory notes include the DVD and the FAQ’s that the company has produced, and could also include the company roadshows. With this clause in the EBA, the company is now not bound by anything said at the roadshows or in the DVD – they will simply say that the example you quote was either "taken out of context", or the person who made the statement "was not authorised to say that". SO DON’T ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE PERSUADED INTO VOTING FOR THIS EBA BASED WHOLLY ON THE INFORMATION GAINED AT THE ROADSHOWS OR IN THE DVD.
2.1
c.i
"To assist in handling challenges and changed circumstances …". Read here ‘how we can work you harder without paying much (if anything) for your additional work’.
2.1
c.ii
"to consider matters brought before it …". It sounds like the CCC will be able to sort out inconsistencies in interpretation and your problems with the EBA, but in actual fact, the CCC has no power at all to fix anything or direct anybody – it only meets to "examine any cabin crew specific issues", not fix them.
2.2.1

A new PBS will be implemented "as soon as possible." Again no fixed time to give you the lifestyle choices you want, and no penalty on the company for not having it introduced before they introduce extended duty hours and more sectors. "As soon as possible" could blow out to 1 or 2 years, depending on the level of importance placed on it by the company.

### Notice the wording of question 15 of the companies FAQ’s. "Should you vote no to this EBA we will decide whether to proceed with the implementation of the PBS". Are they trying to blackmail you into voting ‘yes’ by threatening to withhold the PBS? The basis of the PBS (i.e. Kronos) has been used by Virgin Blue for over two years, so they are not ‘buying a new program’, just paying for an additional feature. Like buying a car, and then later deciding you want a DVD player in it – you don’t need another car, just an adjustment to the current one.
2.2.2

"… we will examine the possible introduction of flexible work arrangements …". This doesn’t bind the company to introduce the flexible arrangements, only to ‘examine the possibility’. They may just as well say that ‘after examining it, the company has decided not to introduce flexible work arrangements’.

2.2.2

"If we elect not to introduce flexible work arrangements …". The company will decide whether or not you will have flexible work arrangements and the level of part time work. Yes they will ‘consult’ with the cabin crew, but then go away and decide what they think is best for the company, not necessarily what you want/need.

2.2.3

"Should we need to make changes …". The need to make changes indicates that the Embraer operation is not really understood by the VB management, and they want to be able to change anything they feel like in this document to cover for inadequate planning.

2.2.3

"… we will discuss this with you and the FAAA". Any changes that the Embraer introduction requires will be ‘discussed’ with you – but the company won’t necessarily listen to anything you say!

2.2.3

"We will reach agreement with the FAAA prior to making any such changes". Remember, the company is not bound to the rules of this agreement, and can change them at any time just by saying to the FAAA "we need to ….".

2.2.4

"… we will discuss this with you and the FAAA. We will reach agreement with the FAAA ….". The company will discuss their desire to move to composite rosters, but will only reach an agreement with the FAAA, not with you – the people it really affects.

2.2.5

"Should we transfer you to a temporary base, at our direction, ….". There goes any thoughts you had of a lifestyle!! What about that dentist appointment you had, or the wedding you have to attend? Who will look after the children while you are away?

2.2.6

"we will examine the possibility of introducing" annual leave swap. Again, there is no guarantee that this will ever eventuate. Possibly just a ‘carrot’ to encourage people to vote yes.

2.2.7

"We will reach agreement with the FAAA …" about extended pairings. Note that those involved with the extended pairings, (you cabin crew), do not get to vote or discuss this with the company, the FAAA will sign it away on your behalf !!!

2.2.8

International operations will no doubt increase the profitability of the company, yet you get no extra pay for making this possible for the company.

2.3
1st
"… we may need to vary the terms of this agreement." This means that the company can throw out the agreement simply by declaring a "special circumstance". So all the lifestyle, goodwill etc that you had organised suddenly goes down the drain. Why is "special circumstance" not defined anywhere?
2.3
2nd
"… dispensation issued by an accredited representative …". So the decision is simply made by one person in the FAAA, without any discussion with cabin crew or others in the FAAA. Or could a VB cabin crew FAAA delegate also be called an accredited representative?
2.3
2nd
"Any request for a dispensation will not be unreasonably withheld where it is sought." In other words, the FAAA is now bound by this document to ‘rubber stamp’ any and all dispensations that the company asks for!! Where will it end? Will your pay be cut by dispensation?
2.3
3rd
"… where possible we will provide you …". If time is critical to the company, they don’t even want you to talk to the FAAA representative about the dispensation – just trust the company!
2.4.1
h
Just as the company managers have "a reasonable time frame", i.e. 14 days, in which to respond to your concerns, you also must have the same time to respond to their concerns – why was this not put in the document also?
2.4.4
2nd
"You must also comply with any reasonable direction …". What is the definition of ‘reasonable direction’ and who decides what is reasonable under the circumstances?
2.4.4
2nd
"… other available work, either at the same workplace or at another workplace." So now the company could tell you (not ask you) to make yourself available for ground duties in Sydney, or Adelaide, or anywhere else they feel the need – including the Brisbane city office!


to be continued..........

[KittyBlue]

3.1
3rd
"…. disrupted by a variety of factors beyond our control." This is far too wide-ranging and should be limited to certain defined events.
3.1
3rd
"… your roster may need to be changed in order for us to meet our operational requirements." There must be limits placed on the company as to what they can and cannot change – otherwise there is no point in having a roster, and the PBS is a complete waste of time as there is zero guarantee of lifestyle.
3.2
2nd
"You must also carry out all reasonable directions of a Supervisor or Manager." This sentence allows ANY supervisor (cabin crew, check-in, or whatever) to direct you to do a task. (Could that also involve assisting the pit-crew?)
3.3.1
iv
"duties that are peripheral or incidental to the work of ….". These duties MUST also be defined so that you can know what it is that you may be asked to do.
3.3.1
3rd
"This means that your duties and responsibilities may also change.". So there can be all sorts of changes to your duties, over which you have no control, yet you are prohibited (by paragraph 1.6) from asking for additional pay for these additional duties – does this sound fair to you?
3.3.2
1st
"… various duties which include, but are not limited to the following:". In other words, you are the general kitchen hand, toilet cleaner, typist, messenger e.t.c. for everyone in the office while on airport reserve.
3.3.3
a
"How you perform when you act up …. will be taken into consideration …". This sounds to me like a carrot to try and make you think that they will favour you for promotion.
3.5.1
3rd
"… a high degree of commitment and flexibility is required." There goes your lifestyle again, as they suddenly ‘require’ you to come in on your days off to conduct training or checking that should have been rostered properly.
3.6.1
2nd
"If not, then we may exercise our right to end the employment relationship ….". This contradicts the sentence at the start of section 3.6 (i.e. We will provide you with facilities to reach and maintain …..")
3.6.2
1st
"A duty may be changed in order for you to undergo training or assessment." This is an unreasonable requirement. When undergoing assessment, it is not too much to ask that a reasonable notice is given, e.g. two weeks. This should fit easily into the normal rostering system. Anything shorter must only be with your consent. See the companies aim as stated in the next paragraph – this completely contradicts this paragraph, so why is it in here?
3.7
3rd
"If not, then we may exercise our right to end the employment relationship ….". This contradicts the sentence at the start of section 3.6 (i.e. We will provide you with facilities to reach and maintain …..")
3.8
e
"There will be times outside these specific periods where we may need to contact you ….". So now you find that you are effectively on call 24 hours per day, 365 days a year – this sounds like a great lifestyle improvement !!
3.9.1

"These expectations are set out in … our policy and procedures and operational manuals.". Remember that changes to these manuals do not require the approval of the FAAA or the cabin crew themselves.

3.9.4
a
"It may also mean warning you that a continuation may lead to the termination of your employment." What about the training promised in paragraph 3.6??
3.9.4
e.i
"We may elect to do this verbally or in writing." Any issue raised by the company that may affect your continued employment, or disciplinary action MUST be in writing – otherwise you have no evidence that the matter has been satisfactorily dealt with,
3.9.6

They neglected to include a sentence stating that nothing will be recorded on your file about an ‘anonymous report’.

3.9.7

"You may be displaced from your duties or required to attend work ….". Does this mean that the company can ask (tell) you to come in on your day off to attend one of these meetings?? It sure looks like it. What did you say about lifestyle?

3.11

Why must cabin crew bear the cost of Visas that the company requires you to get. This is a company responsibility.

3.13
a
"We have the right to transfer you between bases ….". Why should they? No indication is given here of how much notice they have to give, and why can’t you refuse the transfer for family reasons? This is a grossly unfair statement. NB: the pilots EBA also had this in it, and I was told by Michael Young, General Manager Aircraft Operations, that "it is not in the company’s interest to force people to move", yet he wouldn’t say why they wanted it in! That makes me very suspicious of the company’s real intent.
3.13
c.iii
Storage of goods for up to 30 days is not a reasonable time-frame. What if the place you rent is fully furnished? Why should you wear the added cost of storage?
3.13
c.v
The company will fly your family to their ‘new home’, yet no mention is made of flying you there !!
3.13
d
"Prior to transferring our cabin crew from one home base to another, we will consult with the FAAA." This means that the company will TELL the FAAA that they are about to transfer crew. Whoopee, that’s a relief !!
3.13.1

"…. unless otherwise agreed with you." So what say do the cabin crew actually get in this discussion? What happens if the company wants you to transfer for 28 days but you only want to transfer for 7 days????????

3.14

"Cabin Crew members may be employed ….. a number of categories, which include but are not limited to those set out below:" This means that they could employ ad-hoc cabin crew from overseas countries on terms not spelt out here – e.g. reduced pay and conditions, which then puts pressure on your conditions of employment.

3.14.2
2nd
"These positions (temporary part time) will be available until we either …… these positions will become permanent part time.". How does that work? 5% are permanent part time, and 8% are temporary part time – does the permanent part time percentage increase to allow for these extras? Nothing is written here to indicate that, so I assume that some part timers are going to have to back to full time!
3.14.6

"Maximum term contracts". This term is not defined anywhere in this document, so what does it mean? Does your understanding of the definition agree with the company’s? Can they change their understanding of the phrase?

3.15
h
"… In light of the nature of our operation, this must be taken at a time that is convenient to us." S not only have you been made redundant, but you cannot go to a job interview at a time that suits your new employer, you still have to fit in with VB !! What utter stupidity.
3.16.2
2nd
"Severance pay will not be paid where we arrange an offer of reasonable alternative employment for you." Who decides what is reasonable to you??? The company, of course.
3.17
1st
"Should an event …." Any reasonable document would have some sort of definition here as to the ‘event’.
3.17
2nd
"… we may direct you to stand down with pay, on a pay reduction or without pay." Who decides how much the pay reduction will be? Why is that not stated?
3.18.1
3rd
"This benefit is inclusive of any Workers compensation …". The word ‘inclusive’ should be ‘exclusive’. The company is being rather tight-fisted in not wanting to cover you with adequate life/death insurance. After all, $150,000 cover is not very much, so why can’t you get this in addition to workers comp., e.t.c?
3.18.2
c
"This benefit will be payable in the event of your death whilst flying the last sector into or the first sector out of any warlike area." Why does it only apply to these two sectors? Why not to all sectors? I can imagine the field day that an insurance company will have with this statement, and it is your family that will have to fight for it while grieving.
3.19
4th
"… and failing such nomination it will, at our discretion, …" Do you trust this company to exercise their discretion in relation to the payment of your salary while to are interred (gaoled) in a foreign country?
4.1.1
b
Why is your salary increase limited to 5%? If the CPI goes to 7% then you are losing money very quickly, and judging by this EBA, you will never get it back.
4.1.1
c
The 5% above must be traded for "further productivity gains". What have you got left to give?
4.1.1
e
"The 3% salary increase for 1 September 2006 has already been paid." This does not, an any way oblige you to accept this new EBA. The company told us that they were paying the 3% in good faith!! Not so that you would feel obliged to accept their indecent offer.
4.1.5
b
The productivity payment will be paid once there is implementation of this agreement. The full implementation could take 6 or 12 months, maybe longer, so you might be waiting a long tome for this payment.
4.1.6
a
"….subject to specified performance targets being met …". Who sets these performance targets? Are they reasonable? How do Cabin Supervisors know how everyone is going? This is not a very transparent system, and is open to abuse by the company.
4.2.4
a
"We will aim to provide you with a break …". But if you don’t get one, when doing 7 sectors in an 11 hour day, it is just too bad!!
4.2.4
b
No provision is made for busy sectors where there is no time for a break.
4.2.4
c
A rest break is here defined as being "free from all duty". So you can’t have a break while stowing the catering. And if you are interrupted in your break by a pax wanting something, then you really haven’t had a break at all.
4.2.4
e
"Time on the ground" for rest. See the item above.
4.2.9
a
Overtime cutting in at 10 hours 30 minutes is not even halfway reasonable ! Lets get back to the real world and bring it in at 8 or 9 hours.
4.2.10

Annual leave loading of 11.67%. The majority of shift workers get 17.5%, so why shouldn’t you????

4.2.11

This is a legal requirement, not a concession by the company.

4.4
1st
Why is there not a limit as to how much money the company can take out of your pay to make up for their overpayment? You might end up only getting $100 for your fortnights work because the company has taken the rest.
5.0
4th
"Additional leave may be provided …". But paragraph 1.5 says that this document ‘excludes’ all state laws. This sentence is obviously not valid.
5.1.5
b
You lose a days pay as well as losing a day of personal leave! This is a double penalty. I wonder if this is actually legal??
5.1.5
c
Another double penalty.
5.1.5
d
You must provide your certificate on your first day back. But para’s b and c said you have seven days to produce the certificate.
5.1.5
e
So now the company is better equipped, trained and qualified than your own Doctor, in deciding if you are genuinely ill. Your GP will have fun with this when you tell him that the company doesn’t believe him – is it slander???? What moron wrote this??
5.1.6
a
If you work you work 90% of your duty and then go sick, the company adopts the attitude that you haven’t done anything that day, and takes a day off your personal leave!!!!!
5.2
b
If directed by the company to attend a doctor, the company should pay the bill (as most companies will), yet there is no mention of that here.
5.4
c
"URTI leave is not cumulative like personal leave." This contradicts the previous paragraph which states "… you may access up to 6 days leave per year of service."
5.7.2
b
Current industrial laws permit you to accrue up to 10 weeks leave before the company can force you to take it, so why do they want to limit your lifestyle here by reducing your accrued leave to 4 weeks?
6.2.2
b
Only 4hrs 38 mins duty credit for leave taken, yet if to divide 135 hours (see para 6.2.1) by 18 working days per ‘month’ (28 days-10 days off) you get an average of 7.5 hours per day. Now you have to work harder for that part of the month you are not on leave!! Another lifestyle bonus!
6.2.2
c
"…. where you are Subject to Operational Clearance (SOC) as defined by us." This is not at all transparent, and is open to abuse by the company.
6.3

But when will the PBS be operational? NO promise is made by the company regarding this.

6.4.1

"You may agree to work beyond 130 hours in a roster." But the roster is built to 135 hours, so how does that work – I guess the company can just ‘assume’ that you want to work more.

6.4.2
a
"You may be required ….". Another lifestyle inhibiting section. Who wants to get drafted?
6.4.2
g
You can tell crewing that you ‘prefer’ not to exceed your 130 hours, but you can’t say no to further duties. This is no guarantee of a lifestyle.
6.4.4
d
This means that you can pax BNE-MEL-BNE with a 9 hour training day in MEL !!
6.4.4
e
So you can do 135 duty credit hours plus two 9 hour days, taking the total up to 153 hours for the month (excluding any paxing for the ground duties). How easy is that !!!!!
6.4.4
f
This reduces your hours, so that you do 140 duty credit hours plus 9 hours non credit training plus paxing (if necessary).
6.5.1

Even just contemplating cabin crew doing more than 5 sectors shows that the company really doesn’t understand the environment you work in. And they say that safety is important ??????????? I’m lost!

6.5.5

What pressure will the company exert on its employees to get them to "agree" to work an extra 2 hours???

6.5.6

12 hours duration here contradicts para 4.4.d. Or are they thinking up other ground duties for you to perform??

6.5.7

"This is intended to provide you with an opportunity to have a rest break." I have been on flights of greater than 1hour 45 minutes where no-one has had time to have a rest break because of demanding customers. So now you can do more than 5 sectors in 11 hours with no rest break! How safe are you then??

6.5.9

No lifestyle here, where a duty is rostered over whatever spans the company feels like.

6.6
e
These cumulative duty hour limitations are far from realistic.
6.7.1
a
A late finish duty should be 2200 to 2359, and a night duty 0000 to 0459.
6.7.1
b
"In the unlikely event that this occurs we will consult with you ….." and no doubt put pressure on you to continue.



....... I have not compared your current EBA to this one, so have not commented on the pay scales e.t.c., except to note that in the first FAQ booklet handed out, the company seems to be of the opinion that you don’t want a pay rise. This is almost impossible to believe – who were they really talking to? I trust this has been of some help. From what I have read of this document, it is certainly no better, and some would say much worse, than the one voted down by the pilots.

[crewbus]

Hi guys

Firstly, to all of the flight crew out there who are taking an active interest in our EBA - thank you. It is nice to have flight deck out there who are actively putting out documents highlighting that if we vote yes for this EBA, the company has it in their power to do exactly what the EBA says, not what they verbally state at the roadshows.

It is all good and well for the managers to stand up at the roadshows saying 'but there is always someone who wants to do those shifts', 'it is not in the company's best interest for doing that', etc...

There is no protection in this EBA for Cabin Crew. There is a lot of potential for us to be shafted.

Just dont forget your original concerns before you went to the roadshows. If they answered your concerns, ask yourself this - are their answers that you seemed to be pleased with written in the EBA, or is it just managements/FAAAs word?

Again, my opinion.

[EBA_Babylon]

If they answered your concerns, ask yourself this - are their answers that you seemed to be pleased with written in the EBA, or is it just managements/FAAAs word?

For all those thinking the company/union word might protect you, maybe you should record one of the roadshows so you can play it back to yourself in the near future when you've been shafted for one reason or another- because even though it wasn't the companies "intention" now, who knows what it may be in a year or 2 or 3. How many times throughout negotiation history has it been necessary to "get it in writing"? This is no exception.

[320subria]

Thanks Kitty blue, a very thorough analysis of the proposed EBA, I intend to get along to one of the roadshows and ask some very important questions which you have raised. The more I read the EBA and the use of language when referring to the responsibilities of management such as 'aim, endeavour, attempt', the clearer it becomes management can pretty much do whatever they like as long as they 'consult' (i.e inform) the FAAA and its because of operational requirements. Also I find it very frustrating how a lot of the myth busters being sent out by our FAAA reps compare the current EBA with the proposed EBA. 'Oh I see if they can already do it under the current EBA then why don't we just make it the next EBA too'. Just because Virgin Blue may be able to make similar decisions under the current EBA doesn't necessarily mean its a good thing, thats all the more reason to make changes to reflect better working conditions. I think the current EBA is appalling and the proposed EBA is worse if thats possible???

[djvirginblue]

I have gone to one of the roadshows very open minded and read the EBA a trillion times and will be voting a big fat NO

[737NG_Girl]

Well folks voting opens tonight (I think - after the start date was changed so more "Roadshows" :hmm: could be conducted...)

I have already made my decision based on FACT, not on glossy presentations and DVD's.

A concern I have is that those who are voting Yes for Part Time & Maternity Leave are forgetting 2 things:

1) 100 extra Part Time positions means approx 50 to BNE, 50 to MEL. It could be expected that will be divided 20 CS's, 30 Crew in each port. Thats not really a large number - if the list is as long as I have heard (upwards of 200 or something???) will that really affect your position on it??

2) Voting Yes purely because of the Part Time and Maternity changes is, in my opinion (we are all entitled to our own opinions), misguided - because those who do take up those benefits will not be the ones working full time under the new work rules! PLUS after maternity leave you may well be coming back to work Full Time under these rules... If those are the only 2 things that make you want to Vote Yes then I suggest you fully re-read the document. I want kids, so the maternity leave works for me, but I also remembering that I WILL have to go back to work one day. My husband would kill me if I were at home all day I think! :E (he works from a home office)

I am all EBA'd out. To be honest I truly would not want to bet either way if it will get through or not. Last week I would have said it will be NO by a long shot - but after all these All Singing, All Dancing Travelling Stageshows (oops I mean Roadshows :hmm: ) I think there has been some brainwashing going on. In a session I was in, there were a couple of points not being 100% correctly presented (which, funnily enough, one of the CS's present clarified - and was ignored by those presenting), which just reinforced the way I am going to vote.

I disagree with the Defacing of aircraft thats been going on, but I do agree with the message - VOTE NO.

[sinala1]

I have to say that I agree with most of the sentiments being echoed here, and will be voting accordingly.

Mod-er-fantastic-ators - is there any way we can set up an anonymous Poll asking how people voted? I am not sure if its possible or not, but ask and thou shalst recieve hey :O

[TightSlot]

Possibly can do - what are the precise questions?

[sinala1]

Thanks, Tightslot - much appreciated - just after an anonymous poll that asks "Virgin Blue Crew - Did you vote Yes or No for the proposed EBA?"

[smile]

I agree Sinala, I'm curious to see the results of a poll.

[TightSlot]

Unfortunately, I couldn't retrospectively change the nature of this thread to a Poll thread, so I've done the next best thing.

A new thread has been opened here Virgin Blue EBA II (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269340)(Poll) which you can vote on and also continue discussions.

Hope this is OK