South African Airways hiring / expanding this year?

[beechbum]

Rumours,rumours,rumours.....hear via the grape-vine that SAA are about to open their doors and employ. Anyone hear the same. With A340's returning from lease etc.....they're finding themselves a little short in the pilot pool.
I believe that there are a few cadets ready to join and that the man at the top has given the go-ahead to hire non PDI's........:eek:
Let's hope something happens as it's about time for certain guys/gals to get their break :ok:

[Ketek400]

Dream on......Will never happen. Only if you are female or that dark colour which we will not mention.

If it happens; not worth it as you will never see a command. Exec f/o for ever.

Don''t know why I am so negative? Maybe it is just me?

[Deskjocky]

Interesting, will have to have a chat with Capt J to find out- haven’t heard anything. My inclination would be to suggest that they may have decided that they need extra crew but the wheels of progress on the HR side are fearsome- this may only translate into action in 6 months time!! Secondly the 343’s returning will not add capacity as they are just taking over from the retiring 744’s so there will be no requirement for additional crew for them.

Lastly I think it would be premature to hire now simply because the future fleet plan is only due for completion towards the end of the year- the aircraft being talked about are not in the fleet currently and so it would be prudent to try and avoid unnecessary training costs. In saying that the lead time for these aircraft may nullify this point and operation considerations may win the day- especially as there will be 2 new long haul destinations being launched next year- this is a high priority issue and if more crew is needed to make this happen then take it as guaranteed that SAA will hire.

Interesting times

[beechbum]

Ketek, it's all very well being negative and I can see your point...but every now and again there is a glimmer of hope for certain individuals wanting to fly for the National Carrier. Funny how said individuals' phones rang last week.....!!!
Anyway DJ thanks for the info. Had a read during the course of the week (in the Star), that SAA is going to fly directly to the US....more frequencies to be added to certain destinations and more destinations to be included in the network. If this is so then surely this means more aircraft = more crew = more employment.
You seem to be in the know...so if you can shed any more light it would be most welcome to quell the rumours floating around.
Interesting times.......indeed......:ok:

[Deskjocky]

Beech, SAA will operate the southbound sectors direct form the USA- but not all of them.

You are quite correct there will definitely be a new destination added in North America- no prizes for guessing where. Just a quick thank you to DL here for forcing the chief’s hand to move this forward by a year. Don’t want to spill all the beans but there is no doubt that we will need extra crew going forward- its just going to depend on the speed of implementation. We have enough capacity to launch what we want next year- after that its all up to when we get the aircraft. In the mean time additional utilization may force the door open. We lined up a juicy wet lease for one of the 744’s that we had to shelve because we didn’t have enough crew to operate the schedule our partner wanted (It will now operate CPT LHR over the peak season instead so it wasn’t too bad I suppose)- perhaps this may be the catalyst.

You are so right, attitudes will soon change when the phone starts to ring.:)

[jbayfan]

SAA has 12 new hires starting in December

[Ketek400]

Let me guess......cadets!!!!!

[Frogman1484]

Come on guys wake up and smell the roses...12 guys in December. Airlines like EK and Cx hire 12 guys every month, cant you see that the writing is on the wall for the future of SAA. Join a real airline and have a real career

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :=

[bianchi]

Greetings Frogman,

I think it's a bit far fetch to say''the writing is on the wall for SAA''.I won't go into detail or into a"mudsling contest" but an airline that according to your"gud feel'' is going down , don't become part of the Star Alliance etc.
I just find it really interresting to see the number of days spend by the South African crew flying for Cathay Pacific in South Africa..........couple of days off.......onto a Cathay flight and off to SA. FACT !!

There's no doubt that Cathay is a very fine airline , but to say SAA is not where any youngster-person should be is a very''wide statement''.

Are you not perhaps one of the chaps that did''nt get into SAA on your first attempt and then decided to leave for a jetjob in the far east,but secretly you would have rather stayed on SA soil should your application with the national carrier was successfull? Just asking .......only you know the TRUE answer !

Anyhow I am happy for your sake that you are over the moon living in Hong Kong,because imagine if it was the otherway round and you came back to SA.

As for EK, I won't comment, I don't think PPRUNE is the place to make silly"gud feel" statements !

[Ketek400]

It is very true that SAA is good if you want to live in SA, but I do think that if you want to progress alot faster, then EK is best and maybe Cathay 2nd choice. As for SAA - what is progression?

SA used to be a lovely country to live in. Now it is a lovely place for holidays. At least then you are only exposed to the terrible crime for short periods and not all the time.

Statistics show that it is just a matter of time before it happens to YOU and ME. And it is not getting better. Especially if your head of Safety and Security thinks all is cool.......

Anyway...live''s about choices......

[Frogman1484]

Ketek 400 ...well said. South Africa is a lovely country for a Holiday...SAA used to be one of the best jobs around in South Africa. Bianchi I'm sure that you must be happy flying for SAA and so you should be, but can you honestly say to me that the future for a young pilot at SAA looks as rosey as what you might have it...by the way as you can see we can have an open educated conversation on this forum without the mud slinging that you have been doing...maybe the truth hurts!!!:{ :{ :{ :=

[bianchi]

Frogman,

I am sorry, but I am not sure what mud slinging you are referring to ??
The fact that I said''ain't you one of the chaps that decided to chase a jetjob in the far east, or the FACT that time off at CX, means on your way to SA for Golfiing , surfing,watersking etc"?

Lets us just stick to YOUR orginal statement: the''writing is on the wall for SAA",maybe if you can supply me with some real facts , then maybe I should start applying elsewhere for work! ( who knows I might become your P3?) Go well !

Bianchi

[Frogman1484]

Command out of seniority to start with. The very capable leadership management has shown over the last 10 years is another. The FACT that SAA has started a freight program when the rest of the world airlines have been doing it for years is another, and lastly have a look at the corruption within your airline, the upgrades for a kickback at the check-in counter...ohh what about the blatent stealing that is happening on board the aircraft. Tell me something if the future was looking so great , why are so many guys leaving for Dubai and CX.

I can also give you a fact that yes some guys do go back to SA for Golf Holiday etc, but there are a lot more that do not do it on as frequently as you imply. You can also mention the number of SA guys that have move on a base to Perth or New Zealand and have not hang on to the mother land.

[contraxdog]

12 in December only?
Maybe they pulled my suggestion out of the box that said they should utilse their current resources better.
Make the currently employed pilots work more.
Let them drink all the milk they want.
Legally they can fly 1000hrs per year. They are overpaid, and under utilized at the moment. Boredom is not good for currency levels...
Fire the ones that cannot hack the pace and then employ pilots that want to fly, more and for less.
Maybe then the profit margins will go up!

[Frogman1484]

Why drink the milk???
:uhoh:

[nugpot]

SAA has 12 new hires starting in December

Today is 31 Oct, time to resign for Dec start date.

So did anyone get a call? :confused:

[spinolla9]

Today is 31 Oct, time to resign for Dec start date.
So did anyone get a call? :confused:
No not yet :\ . Pick me, ooo please, please pick me. :{ :{ :{ . Will drink lots of milk:ok: Can start immediately, no notice required :ugh:

[beechbum]

2 recruited I beleive. Start 1st Feb direct entry on the freighter fleet.....

[divinehover]

SAATraining Dep is begging for new pilots. F.I.G.J.A.M Jordaan won't let them do it cause there are only whites with appropriate experience avlb. Once again we have 737-800 drivers running out of hours before year end. AIMS course(Airline Instruction Methodology I think) had to be cancelled in Nov because the airline couldn't afford to take 8 (out of 850) off line for trianing. I hear they manage to scrape two girls together for an intake.

[beechbum]

Nope as far as I know two guys.....with 73 experience - I suppose to allow for limited training on the freighter fleet as there is not enough instructors/space readily available to train newbies on the other fleets i.e A340

[Mark J B]

Heard two of our guys (Comair) resigned yesterday to go to Spoories.

[WRX737]

:ok: 100% correct. Start 01/02/2007 on freighters as f/o.

[Frogman1484]

Hey Bianchi I hope you are reading the rest of the posts...maybe that might give more insight in what I was mentioning a few days ago.

[Moose 9]

I heard the same thing about the guys resigning from Comair,apparently they have their letter of appointments confirmed this time.Heard they may take as many as 40 new guys/girls as the rest of the shortage will be filled by the cadets.Apparently the return of the A340's aswell as as the A320's has sparked the move along with the planning for 2010 World Cup.Lets hold thumbs as this surely may be the very last oppurtunity for white males to crack the nod.Not entirely sure if they're going to start phoning for interviews or have a standby list already,all I know is that cellphone is permanently charged and always on!!

[bianchi]

SorryFrogman1484, was offline( leave ) for a couple of days.Not sure what you referring too?

Have a good day!!( and of course a TSING TAO)

[ested]

So 3 cadets from SAX, a male capt and a female f/o (from SAX as well), and a capt from Link started yesterday at SAA. Congratulations to them all!

Does anyone have any more info when SAA will hire again? And what sort of numbers they’re looking at?

[JG1]

Trying to get an estimate of how many positions will be available in 2007 in South Africa.

Rumours are SAA want 88 new pilots.
SAX wants 18.
AvStar (737's) wants 8.
Mango ?? expansion plans for another 3 738's, plus some of the older ex-SAA captains retiring (again)..estimate Mango want 20.
Nationwide are losing some older guys too - they will need at least 12.
1-Time? Safair are looking too.

All up are we looking at about 150 positions for medium-jet rated guys in 2007?

Salaries should be rising with demand - if the operators who aren't paying enough don't brighten up their act they will be horribly light-handed with regards to experienced crew.

Which leads to the question - what are they paying (basics without S&T)?
SAA - 738 F/O R45k Capt R65k
1-Time F/O R20k Capt R38k
Safair F/O R21K Capt R45k
Nationwide F/O R12k Capt R36k
Mango F/O R27.5k Capt R45k
SAX F/O R18k Capt R32K
Airquarius F/O R13k Capt R25k
Link F/O R20k Capt R28k

Some are going to have to increase pretty drastically or else their training and insurance bills (due to inexperienced crew) will soar...:hmm:

[nugpot]

Which leads to the question - what are they paying (basics without S&T)?
SAA - 738 F/O R45k Capt R65k
1-Time F/O R20k Capt R38k
Safair F/O R21K Capt R45k
Nationwide F/O R12k Capt R36k
Mango F/O R27.5k Capt R45k
SAX F/O R18k Capt R32K
Airquarius F/O R13k Capt R25k
Link F/O R20k Capt R28k


Not so sure about your figures. What are you quoting? Total cost of employment (without S&T) divided by 12?

SAX taking 20 initially (just to crew current a/c complement), then whatever they lose to other airlines plus further expansion.

[JG1]

Monthly basic salary gross including perks; not including any travel allowance/S&T's. Figures sourced from individuals at companies; bear in mind with seniority salaries are generally higher, I tried to post median figures.

If you have more accurate figures, please post. Lets get an accurate picture of SA medium-jet salaries.

[beechbum]

And....Comair???
Also hiring like mad this year as several guys moving on!
JG1...I think your figures are a litle outdated and if you search this forum you'll find a whole thread on local airlines salaries.
Seek and ye shall find :ok:

[JG1]

A search revealed 6 threads.

2006 threads :

Beechbum: Unless some one else can verify....
1. SAA F/O - >20K/month
2. Comair - <20k/month
3. SA Airlink - <20k/month
4. SA Express - ?
5. Nationwide 72/73 - <20k/month
6. 1 Time - >20k/month

Nugpot : I have access to the scales of various airlines (excluding 1Time), and I can vouch that at three of the airlines in SA, FO's can take home more than R20k per month.
In fact, if you have an ATP, you will take home >R20k/month within 3 years of joining at all three.

2004 threads :

Red8 : Our cojos (no airline given) earn between 12-18k a month. I guess that is not really in the peanut category, but still one always wonders if the grass IS greener....

Yang : Monthly Gross salaries plus S & T's:
Airlink: co pilot: R 13 000 Capt: R21 000
Express: Co pilot: R 15 500 Capt: R23 000
Nationwide: Co Pilot: R 10 500, Capt: R18 000
Comair: Co Pilot: R 16 000, Capt: R 26 000

Barellroll : The Nationwide salary for captains are about R23000 before tax.
At Airlink a few years ago, some guys got command after 3-4 months, but at the moment it is closer to 3-4 years. The command salary there is also about R24000 before tax.


The threads weren't very specific about figures, seems the guys are shy.
Knowing your market value can only be beneficial to you! So, don't be shy, stick together, post the salaries you know guys are earning, F/O's and Captains, at each company and lets get an idea of what we are worth and what we could be earning. Give yourselves some ammunition when it comes to that salary-increase / interview.

If 150 new medium jet jobs are going in 2007, then the companies are going to have to stump up the industry average plus more if they are going to attract / keep qualified pilots.

Nugpot, if you do have salary scales, please PM me with them, it would be much appreciated, tx.

[Q4NVS]

SAA - 738 F/O R45k Capt R65k
1-Time F/O R20k Capt R38k
Safair F/O R21K Capt R45k
Nationwide F/O R12k Capt R36k
Mango F/O R27.5k Capt R45k
SAX F/O R18k Capt R32K
Airquarius F/O R13k Capt R25k
Link F/O R20k Capt R28k


Definitely not accurate and unless you work on excat situations i.e. JFO, FO or SFO etc. you will not get more accurate either.

Don't think it necessary to publish - Determine your own worth, as that is "who" you will be working for.

200 Hr CPL's - Hey, they'll even pay for Ratings and fly for CE @ R7000 pm.
(Because they can...)

Example: SAX SFO > Link Captain

:ok:

[Beak]

Safair figures are definately way over the mark. Or else management has a very flexible payscale and some of he loyal guys are getting sc%^&d.
Capt. take home = +_20K
FO = +_12K
No difference between FO, SFO, Comm, ATP etc.
Does not include s&t.

[AfricanSkies]

The Mango figures are correct for F/O's, some Capt's are on less, and the Airquarius figures spot on basics for new hires. Add another R13k a month S&T's to AQ figures on average.

[Deskjocky]

Don’t count on SAA hiring anywhere near the figures mentioned, although there will be some recruitment. Was in a meeting late last year where aircraft utilization was discussed, seems its felt that more can be wrung out of the domestic fleet- despite the increase in utilization we got out of the latest NW schedule. Read more aircraft for Mango....:suspect:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Which leads to the question - what are they paying (basics without S&T)?

The figures given are for basic only.

[CJ750]

Seeing as this is a rumour network how true are the rumours that our beloved SAA are hiring pilots this year in the region of 80 or so. :}

If this is true give or take a few on the numbers can anyone shed some light on what they are actually looking for as far as qualifications go. I have heard some fluffy crew have been employed straight onto the freighters. If this is correct are they only looking at crew employed by other airlines or has anybody got a chance ( EVEN CORPORATE AND CONTRACT PILOTS):E

Also what is the age limit , have heard a woman of 49 was employed.

If the rumours are true can anyone shed some light on the process of being interviewed at SAA and also if possible what is generally asked in interviews or what can one expect and who is normally on the selection panel.

ALL THE BEST FOR 2007 TO ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE TRYING TO GET INTO SAA:ok:

[beechbum]

I believe the boss man gave the go ahead to hire 60 - 70 pilots this year. Whether or not it will happen will be anyones guess. I guess we will see in time. As far as corporate is concerned, I know of one starting who has been on the list......
You can only try......!!!

[LimaFoxTango]

Anyone has any contact info for SAX? Email address, etc?

[fluffyfan]

DJ you said seems its felt that more can be wrung out of the domestic fleet

Interesting, considering many pilots (domestic and International) flew to there legal limit last year. From what I heard 88 pilots is the minimum they need to be able to operate the new routes and aircraft, perhaps you are optimistic that a more equitable distribution of flying hours between the various fleets and bases is possible, I would like to see that although the company has proved time and time again that they are incapable of such organisation.

Perhaps the company should consider how much efp they will be paying out in 2007 instead of hiring new pilots

[nugpot]

At least 3 pilots marched into the SAX Chief Pilot's office today to resign. They are starting at SAA on 18 Feb.

Congrats friends! May you enjoy it as much as you wanted it.

LimaFoxTango: PM me with yor details and I will mail you or phone you.

[Deskjocky]

DJ you said
Interesting, considering many pilots (domestic and International) flew to there legal limit last year. From what I heard 88 pilots is the minimum they need to be able to operate the new routes and aircraft, perhaps you are optimistic that a more equitable distribution of flying hours between the various fleets and bases is possible, I would like to see that although the company has proved time and time again that they are incapable of such organisation.
Perhaps the company should consider how much efp they will be paying out in 2007 instead of hiring new pilots

One thing is for sure, there are not going to be anywhere near that number recruited this year- especially in a year that is going to see up 3000 retrenchments in the rest of the organisation. The only additional capacity entering the fleet is the returning 343’s and that is countered by the retirement of the 744’s. As well as certain long haul destinations are going to be daylight services in the next schedule thus freeing up some 340's for the new routes.

Whether we can make this happen is a mute point, this is going to be somewhat assisted by the reduction in the 738 fleet as more aircraft are spun off to Mango and the new domestic strategy takes hold. I must stress this does not mean a reduction in capacity- obviously we are going to deploy wide body capacity to fill the gaps.

[Q4NVS]

Is it only me :sad: , or have there been a lot of mixed signals here over the past few weeks..?

Another Q: Why do SAA have to phone people at 21:00 in order to "offer" them start dates - No harm intended, just CURIOUS.

Anyways - Congrats guys and gal!

:D

[putt for dough]

One thing is for sure, there are not going to be anywhere near that number recruited this year- especially in a year that is going to see up 3000 retrenchments in the rest of the organisation.


Yeah right. Tell us another one!
You and me both know that SAA wont get close to
retrenching 1000 staff, never mind 3000 staff members. :eek:

The unions my friend, are all over this like white on rice!

[Deskjocky]

The unions my friend, are all over this like white on rice!

Yes, I have also read the papers- however I also talk to shop stewards and other union officials- they don’t like what’s going on but right now but they don’t have any choice in the matter- if they go on strike (their only option in terms of leverage) and we lost about the same as we lost the last time then we are done- and there will be no Transnet bailout this time. These are the cold hard facts.

Their view has become one of lets keep as many people in a job as possible. The situation is extremely serious- they know this. The official process of consultation is already underway- once that’s complete then the process will start one business unit at a time, the objective is to have the process completed by the end of the financial year in March.

[putt for dough]

Only time will tell. We will just have to
wait and see. :hmm:

[sle121]

So 3 cadets from SAX, a male capt and a female f/o (from SAX as well), and a capt from Link started yesterday at SAA. Congratulations to them all!

Does anyone have any more info when SAA will hire again? And what sort of numbers they’re looking at?



Another Link Captain on his way, Think 20 Feb to Start:)
Link FO to start SAA on April 07, Notice given:)

[Q4NVS]

Another Link Captain on his way, Think 20 Feb to Start:)

Same intake I believe:
2 x SAX Captains
2 x SAX FO's

With more to come...:O

[philby737]

Only time will tell. We will just have to
wait and see. :hmm:


Anybody know whether an ATP is a pre-requisite. :{ :{ :{ Its getting very cold out here:confused:

[hoendertjie]

So, does anyone know exactly how many people are starting at SAA in February? There is a few on 737-200 starting on the 1st, and then a few on A340 starting later in the month. Anyone know the numbers?

[Deutscher]

No idea. I've heard quite a few SAX guys are leaving for SAA.

[CJ750]

That just proves my theory that the all the airlines think that :ugh:Corporate and Contract pilots :ugh:are not good enough.........or AM I WRONG

[Deutscher]

CJ750, its not that contract or charter pilots are not good enough for the airlines. But if you have multicrew experience it counts quite a lot.

[nugpot]

That just proves my theory that the all the airlines think that :ugh:Corporate and Contract pilots :ugh:are not good enough.........or AM I WRONG

AFAIK, all the pilots that SAA has taken over the past 6 months have either been cadets, girls or 4000hr + airline drivers. I guess if you can pick and choose, then taking guys with airline experience makes sense.

If you really want to go to SAA, then it seems as if you need to do the step via SAX, Link, NTW or Comair.

[V2+ A Little]

The world has changed a bit. Contract drivers operatre to the same SOP's any aother airline does. Most companies (contract), has had their SOP's created by SAA pilots. Also, the days of only 1900's are gone, there are some multi crew types in the contract world and exec. Some heavier, with bigger capacity than Link or SAX. Acceptable to the likes of Cathy etc, but not SAA. Sad really, as every contaract pilot started his/her career that way to get the experience to fly for SAA.

[nugpot]

The world has changed a bit. Contract drivers operatre to the same SOP's any aother airline does. Most companies (contract), has had their SOP's created by SAA pilots. Also, the days of only 1900's are gone, there are some multi crew types in the contract world and exec. Some heavier, with bigger capacity than Link or SAX. Acceptable to the likes of Cathy etc, but not SAA. Sad really, as every contaract pilot started his/her career that way to get the experience to fly for SAA.

I was not attempting to be nasty, just honest.

Out of all the pilots that started with us over the last few months, the guys that adjusted the quickest and easiest were the ex-Link and Cathay drivers.

Airline flying is different from contracts. Not more difficult or more demanding - just different.

I don't know if SAA has a policy to give guys with airline experience more points at the interview, but they seem to give preference to guys from SA airlines.

Maybe you should give SAX, Link, NTW a test drive. It might just increase your SAA chances. Then again, I can be completely wrong....

[asianeagle]

I am sure having the right experience counts a lot, however, remember it is still like any job interview, if you have all the right experience and they dont like you for whatever reason, then you can't expect to 'crack the nod'. My advice, dont put all your eggs in one basket, look elsewhere in the world too. Or you could end up working for Vernon Bricknel:}
It also works the other way round, you might not like it when you get there.

[CJ750]

I am confused. Some people talk about AIRLINE experience and others talk about MULTICREW experience.

What is the difference between flying in a multicrew environment in an airline AND flying in a multicrew environment in a $20 million dollar business jet.

We also go to Sim training as required by CAA and some might even fly more modern equipment than the airlines but still airline experience is considered better than corporate and contract.

I am sure this has been discussed on this forum before but after a 20 years flying (9500hours), with the last 10 years flying some of the best business jets in a multi crew environment working harder than any airline pilot will ever work i must now go to a SMALL airline and get paid peanuts to say i am now getting better experience.

The only reason i am looking at the SAA intake is to get a life i.e. a roster. I believe some airlines have a roster that is more of a joke but so is my life at the moment.

THIS IS NOT A B WITH AN ITCHING SESSION ON MY PART BUT THIS HAS BUGGED ME FOR MANY YEARS.

SO ANY MORE INPUT OR SHOULD I JUST STAY CRUISING AT FL450:E

[Q4NVS]

CJ750

It definitely depends where you are (in life) and what you want (out of life).

Often some of the better "SMALL" Airlines offer a very good Quality of Life.

Me, if I was offered a job today, flying a Citation X or Global Express, I would be flattered but gladly decline and stay on the Big (and even Bigger) T Tail. I'd rather wait my turn (in months or years), to move onto the CRJ as an example, rather than having to trot all over the globe at the drop of a hat (Corporate Style).

But as they say, different yokes for different folks.

The most important question is: Do you want the money, the time with family or a blend of both?

(Remember, the heavier the metal the heavier the suitcase)

:ok:

[beechbum]

CJ750, I hear you. It's a very contentious issue alround I'm sure which makes you wonder why you don't get a look in vs others from an airline background with less experience who get a look in first. I'd like to add that a current corporate pilot is starting at SAA in Feb, so there is a chance that it might happen again in the future. You never know! I know from hands on that several operators (SAA + Comair.....to name a few) have burnt fingers in hiring certain individuals from the contract market and have vowed to look at previous airline expereince first -I'm not saying that corporate fits that category - but it seems that is the way it goes not only here in SA but on a world wide scale.
By the way have you been through the SAA interview mill? As all can be said is....hang in I guess!!!

[nugpot]

What is the difference between flying in a multicrew environment in an airline AND flying in a multicrew environment in a $20 million dollar business jet.

There IS a difference, but I agree with you that it should not be very important. After all SAA will have 10-15 years to teach you how to be an airline captain.;)

working harder than any airline pilot will ever work i must now go to a SMALL airline and get paid peanuts to say i am now getting better experience.

Don't think that you work harder than airline pilots. I will be doing 70 legs in 18 days with a cadet in the right seat. My SMALL airline probably also has more aircraft than your outfit. ;)

I cannot say why SAA likes guys with airline experience. If you really want to fly there, then the choice is yours whether you want to sit and hope that they will take you out of your nice corporate jet or whether you want to go via another airline. There are many guys with 20 years of flying experience at airlines who still want to go to SAA. A short while ago I was one of them. Things have changed for me and and now have my dream job - outside of SAA.

BTW, this is not an argument. Just my opinion of things in general. If your age in your profile is correct, I would say SAA is probably not for you. You will probably retire there as an FO, and I don't wish that on my worst enemy.

[beechbum]

Hey Nugs, just a hypothetical question but if the phone rang tomorrow would you go? Just curious!
CJ750 - Nugpot is right....maybe age is not with on your side anymore! Dunno! Hope to be wrong on that score!

[nugpot]

Hey Nugs, just a hypothetical question but if the phone rang tomorrow would you go? Just curious!

Nope. Time and circumstances ran out for me.

Funnily enough, I am really happy with my decision.

[CJ750]

thanks for the input folks. money always helps but for me my family is more important. corporate/charter and a :ugh::ugh::ugh: Boss does not allow for a happy family life.

unfortunately i am not SAAF trained and i don't know enough people in the right companies to have got anywhere by now (and i am certainly not selling my sole to VB/NTW), so it looks like i will stick to FL450 criss-crossing africa.

Cheers for now
:)

[Deskjocky]

So as not to pollute the Comair thread, but in order to respond to some posts relating to the credibility of the information I’ve posted:

jbayfan:
DJ, you are the same guy who said SAA will not hire anywhere near 88 pilots this year - well the SAA Exco has approved the hiring of 89!

According to the member of EXCO I spoke to this is not the case, Capt J has been going on about the pilot shortage for ages, the whole of EXCO want to know why he wants more pilots when the fleet has not grown (taking into account the 744 retirement and the 343’s returning to service).

Aside from attrition the only recruitment that seems on the cards will be for the freighters for Cargo.

Fluffy:
DJ sorry, I do enjoy your threads, however as to SAA providing Mango with more 800's......I dont think so, rumour has it SAA getting 2 from our European buddies to replace the ones sent to Mango.
You may be right, I hope not, would be good for Mango to stand on its own two feet and find its own 800's instead of relying on big brother.


Not according to the guys in Fleet and Network Planning (the people who decide on what stays an what goes in the fleet)- definitely no extra aircraft for SAA for this year- they want more utilization out of the ones we already have.

[journeyman]

DJ, as your initial predictions regarding the SAA LCC were, shall we say, less than accurate - please forgive us mortals for being just a teeny bit sceptical when confronted with information from your direction.

Unless it's just a case where, as in most airlines of a certain size, the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. In fact (no names mentioned) I'm more of the belief that the left hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing! You know the story: local CEO - Airbus - lose a fortune - foreign CEO - Boeing - hedge against your own currency - lose a fortune - Airbus - lose a fortune - launch an LCC, etc.

Here's a prediction for you: within the next decade, Mango will be bigger than SAA domestic, which will eventually fade into obscurity.

[Deskjocky]

Well you seem to be such an expert, bringing such insightful information to the fore how could you possibly be wrong!

[fluffyfan]

journeyman is that your wish or your belief? would be interesting to see Star Alliance customers coming off Business and First class international flights and getting stuck in a LCC and having to buy there own bread roll. The Domestic has been running at a fantastic capacity of late and all indications from the people in the know are that the SAA domestic is doing very well, you may be interested to know that there is a distinct possibility SAA may actually post a profit this year....and yes after all the laughter has died down I will attempt to explain what little I know (now this is from a management feedback session and seeing as it was said in a public enviroment I have no problem repeating it here), this may come back to haunt me but I can only repeat what I have heard.

One theory on the huge loss recently reported is that its the accounting system that has not yet counted a huge amount of revenue, this all has to do with the recent roll over from the Genesis to the Pegasys system (or the other way around forgive me if not correct this stuff tend to bore me) which was a requirement to join the Star Alliance, anyway theory is a huge amount has not yet been counted and is "in the system". I personally can not see how such a huge loss is possible with aircraft running at present capacity.

This is the latest rumour which I would like to believe, because I would like to see SAA make a profit and eventually get privatised one day so the poor old bleeding hearts who care so much for the poor old tax payer (god bless them) can finally be silenced and move on to champion other worthewhile causes like poverty etc, they suffer so much with the burden of standing up for the tax payer all the time its time they had a break from this agony:)

[journeyman]

Fluffyfan,
It is simply a prediction - I am largely indifferent as to who gains capacity and who loses. What I do wish for is that the nett number of aircraft on a particular domestic route does not decrease, but rather increases or at worst, stays the same. That would effectively mean that nobody loses their jobs, and that's something that should concern everybody in the industry, for obvious reasons.

That being said, I don't believe the status quo can be maintained. SAA is and has been for a fair length of time, a loss making enterprise and as unpalatable as it may be, that is a fact. There is therefore no reason to assume that SAA will be an exception to the worldwide trend of so-called legacy carriers being usurped by the LCCs on their regional route structures.

Oh, and try not to trivialise the burden that SAA puts on the taxpayer - it is precisely that kind of arrogance that could well be your undoing, when the man-in-the-street finally loses patience and demands action.

[jbayfan]

Fluffyfan, you may want to bin your post. SAA is in for a huge loss this year. And HUGE with a capital H U G E!!! It does not help to fly full aircraft when you have reduced your business class capacity by around 40%. SAA has pi :mad: ed away around a billion rand in potential revenue by reducing the business class capacity when they installed the lie-flat seats on the entire long-range fleet. The A340-200 went from 42 to 24 business class seats - now they tell the staff that there is no more confirmed rebate travel on A340-200 aircraft because they have a high demand for business class but no capacity. Lufthansa and BA carry 380 pax on their B744 aircraft - SAA carries 330!!

They should double the leg room in economy to 64 inches from 32 inches and they will find that all their aircraft will be full and there will be an even bigger demand for seats. Imagine, an airline running at close to 100% load factors but losing billions a year - wonder how KN and AE will explain that one to parliament?? It must be a legacy factor, blame it on the old regime.

And DJ, you really have no clue what you are talking about. Captain J confirmed at his feedback session last week that the SAA Exco approved the hiring of 89 pilots for the period Dec 2006 to Dec 2007. The only possible reduction being if the additional B738 SAA is looking for does not materialise.
You should change your brand of cheese - your current brand seems to be full of holes ;)

[beechbum]

And DJ, you really have no clue what you are talking about. Captain J confirmed at his feedback session last week that the SAA Exco approved the hiring of 89 pilots for the period Dec 2006 to Dec 2007
From an outsider looking in, it seems that jbayfan seems to have more of the correct figures that seem to be bantered around in the industry. Well this is what we are led to believe. I always admired your posts Deskjocky but it seems lately you're in the dark regarding a few issues, I don't know. Maybe thats what management tells you, as they know you come here and spill the beans.
Anyway as you might or might not know, all the Jan intake was for A340, 2 guys going on freighter in Feb and a further batch on A340 also in Feb. Thereafter a slow trickle for a few on the freighters in the next few months aswell.
I must admit though it seems a hell of a lot of guys/gals to recruit and wonder how the training department will handle the huge influx? I hear outsourcing of training overseas might be an option as the 340 sim cannot cope.
Oh well in time we shall see...........:ok:

[Deskjocky]

No more recruitment till further notice...message from HR and it applies across the board.

[Ibhayi]

Are they actually happy for you to circulate memos on the net to a bunch of randoms? Surely not.

Cost cutting, it's all you hear out of SAA, they will keep doing it till they cut their own nose off, if they haven't already. They should try it from the top down not the bottom up.

[Deskjocky]

yea, perhaps a little too much info, although this information is distributed to every employee and so it can be considered in the public domain, anyway point's been made. Couldnt agree more, the fish always rots from the head first. Thing is if you dont chop some big wigs then you dont generate the big cost reductions- you need to chop a lot of small fry to get the same results.

[Ibhayi]

How about chopping Khaya?

Look at his past the the IDC and then at African Media and Entertainment, every single one had severe problems, the IDC unable to get loans back to the tune of R800 million and then AME nearly going belly up under his chairmanship.

Taken lunch in his office recently, I hear u get served on silver platters where as he stopped coffee for so many.

[Deskjocky]

:} even the grand old days on the 6th floor are over- was in a meeting up there the other day and I was forced to stir my tea with a plastic tea spoon..:eek: :eek: I think it would be an understatement to say the boss is feeling the heat...

[Ibhayi]

After some of the sheer absurd nature of some of things he has done/attempted/does I find it hard to believe that removing such trivial things as spoons does anything. Instead he should focus on the real matters, and his salary should be pegged to performance.


There was a wonderful article in the Fortune magazine a few months ago about the requirements for success and one was sheer practice and a deep understanding of ones industry. Here is a man with no airline experience no, decent business experience running an airline and making a joke of himself.

Does Khaya even have a formal university or tertiary education? Before any of you jump on the band wagon saying oh Bill Gates doesn't have one, remember Bill Gates was accepted into Harvard and built his business from scratch where as Khaya is friends with a minister. If that article has any truth to it then we should be appointing from with inside the airline or people with more experience, and affirmative action is merely apartheid in reverse, albeit to varying degrees, the ANC should read our constitution and maybe back date their ideas to when the Freedom Charter was drawn up, which states clearly that discrimination along gender or racial lines has no place in a society that intends to develop socially and economically.

Khaya and SAA as a whole are a joke.

[fluffyfan]

DJ I still fail to see how SAA can save themselves to a profit, does not sound right, if we cant make a profit with our current load factors we never will, the company has too may overheads and not enough revenue, My opinion is that we should be expanding like every other airline at the moment, or are we waiting to miss the boat again? why is SAA not flying to Bankok, Madrid, Lisbon, Sydney, Athens and many other places, surely a good hint is to look at the airlines coming here and wonder why, we have one of the largest portugese/ greek popluations oustide of those countries and we dont fly there, time SAA decided what they want politics or commerce.

And as for no more intake, this should be an interesting development, you can look at as many charts and graphs as you want on crew utilisation but I flew 1 hour short of the legal limit in Jan and that is huge EFP, if every pilot in SAA put in a efp letter the company would be in deep trouble, and you may find more and more people putting these letters in, the company will not be able to hire and train fast enough and once again a short sighted decision by management will cost the company, the company needs to shift from crisis management to long term planning, in my humble opinion.

[Deskjocky]

Fluffy, all good points you raise and frankly I not inclined to disagree. However here's the thing, the place has been poorly managed for too long- and before we hark back to the good old days, they never existed. Under the old regime SAA was a monopoly so you cant say what they did was effective because there was no benchmark. Case in point, we are doing a great deal of work in non direct cost- Im coming across agreements signed in the early 80's that are still current and costing us an absolute fortune. Granted these things are very involved and are not apparent unless you go and look for them but they exist. So you need to clean up before you can move forward.

Before everyone thinks I’m blaming the past I’m not- its just the company has not remained “current” if you will on certain things that have now come to really bit us in the butt. Naturally these issues would not sink the company but now combined with the shenanigans of the last 10 years and you have a real problem.

Yes load factors are high and yes our average fares (in fact we grew our sales by 10% system wide this FY)- particularly domestically- are very respectable but what kills all of this is our cost of sale which is significantly higher than some of our competitors both in contribution to overall cost and percentage of net fare. Same story for our revenue per employee, and the list goes on. These issues are not fixed by getting more aircraft or flying to new routes- if we got these fundamental issues under control routes that loose money would immediately become profitable.

So the bottom line is you need to place the business on a sound footing before you expand- otherwise what’s the point. So we are playing the game on 2 fronts- manage the day to day business- ie where can we make more money out of our assets (hence the chopping and changing of the route structure- which mainly comes form route cancellations as well as looking at ways of increasing utilization and going on to routes that we can make more revenue) and at the same time fundamentally change the way the company does business.

Yes guys are flying to the limit, its not desirable- but in the sort term its better to manage the situation with the current variables and then when the company is back on a more solid footing, look to address those shortcomings in the system. I’m sorry to say that the next few months are going to be make or break, if the fundamentals are not fixed it doesn’t matter how much money the DPE pumps in- it will all go down into a bottomless pit.

[reptile]

Deskjocky/jbayfan/fluffyfan:

Any idea why SAA is running A319's (selected flights) on the JNB-CPT sector? It would appear that the largest seat shortage (for SAA at least) is on this route.

[TooBadSoSad]

Deskjockey, what's up at SAA? Heard the cafetaria and coffee shop at HQ have closed, managers have had their cellphones taken away, all hiring is on hold, Chicago route has been canned, Cargo has a senior executive suspended and there are 30 odd foreign consultants on their way to SAA to help the CEO figure out how badly he and his executive team have screwed up the airline?

[Ibhayi]

"30 odd foreign consultants on their way to SAA to help the CEO figure out how badly he and his executive team have screwed up the airline?"

If that is true its a disgrace. Consultants are idiots you pay to give you bad advice you couldn't have thought of your self.

Wasn't there a CEO in the late 80's with the surname Moolman, apparently we was awesome the best SAA have had, so I have heard from some staff.

Their CEO needs to go, SAA don't seem to have a cash flow problem they have a management problem. Their ballooning lease agreements kill them, their appointment of people with no airline experience, it all comes to a pretty drastic bottle neck of failures that will for the next few years continue to plague the airline as agreements are signed now will have to be re-drawn if SAA ever finds decent management.

SAA needs to drive costs down and things like no petrol cards, unless everybody had one is a waste of time, there must be more pressing issues like lease agreements, rotation.

DeskJockey and by the way some of SA's most lean and profitable companies give coffee with plastic spoons, serve Ricoffy, it isn't unheard of but after seeing Khaya's lavish lifestyle for so many years I doubt he is truly curtailing his expenses but rather not getting caught.

[fluffyfan]

DJ I see your point, I just hope we dont miss the boat, our competition are taking more and more market share, and I dont think its because of clever marketing on there side I think its because there is a gap and an increasing market that SAA are failing to fill, take the cargo section for example, just count the cargo aircraft lines up on Delta ramp, they all seem to be making a killing but SAA cant seem to, the more ground we loose the harder it is going to be to get it back.

For the record I dont see why everyone is so hard on Khaya, he is dealing with policies and decisions all made before his time, he is not making these descisions alone he has some highly qualified people giving good advice, for years everyone has said the company has far too many staff and too little revenue, he seems to be the only one trying to fix this, the company has made a loss way before Khaya came along, it seems the poor guy cant win, some complaining there is no airline experience in management, others complaining about consultants (who presumably do have experience), maybe we should give the guy a chance.

[unmanned]

From the peanut gallery......

Very few state funded companies have cash flow problems. SAA has the best chance of survival if they would start hiring managers who had the slightest management ability. I don't believe a turn around is imminent until you see a few fat cats roll, hopefully soon, but Africa's history of holding on to unproductive power seeking heads does not bode well for the company!

[jbayfan]

Fluffyfan, as the old saying goes, a fish rots from the head down, and if you think there's time to give Khaya a chance then you have missed all the indicators telling you what the state of your employer is. Why do you think SAA has just asked the government for a R4 billion recap? Because they are running out of money!! The latest rumour doing the rounds at SAA is that it is only the 2010 World Cup that is stopping governement shutting down SAA.

[fluffyfan]

jbayfan, what indications are you talking about? SAA has been bailed out by the government since it started decades ago (one of the oldest airlines), SAA has always been running out of money, Why? because its always been a political tool, in the old days SAA used to fly with 10 people on board a Classic to Israel round the bulge, what has Khaya done that has everyone calling for his head, it will take time to fix the Chaos, admittedly he does not help his reputation by taking helicopters to work, but lets look at what he has done so far, started Mango, which is giving the LCC a headache, and now he is trying to fix the structure, I reserve comment till I see the results, the last two bosses were horrific, Colman sold all the assets did some fancy footwork and left with half the farm, the last clown bet the rest of the farm on the Rand/Dollar exchange rate.
You may be right about 2010 but I sincerely doubt it, Air Zimbabwe continues to operate to this day with nothing? Why? because its a political tool. Do you ever think the Government will give up SAA? I don’t. I think privatisation is the way to go eventually aka British Airways but at this point who wants to buy and airline that is incapable of making a profit. I doubt the Government will ever bin SAA, firstly it will kill the economy, thousands of PD people will loose there jobs, 200 odd PD pilots as well as 600 whiteys will have no job (just the pilots alone in terms of tax using the average salary of a pilot who has been at SAA 10 years thats approx 320 million in lost revenue for sars), they will promptly leave for greener pastures with a huge pilot shortage in the rest of the world they will have no problem finding new jobs, and this while the goverment it seriously worried about a skills shortage, in the mean time rich white owned airlines will slowly fill the gap with old equipment and prosper, how on earth do you expect the parliamentarians and ANC top dogs to travel with no State Airline? Kulula? I don’t think so, you need to witness Zuma taking a trip to Durban, its an eye opener.

[nugpot]

I dont see why everyone is so hard on Khaya, he is dealing with policies and decisions all made before his time,

Not entirely true FF. Some of these stuff-ups are of his own making.

he is not making these descisions alone he has some highly qualified people giving good advice

He can always listen to them..........

[Deskjocky]

Fluffy is right, there is a massive legacy to deal with here in terms of the last 3 CEO's. But hard times he took the job so now its his baby. It was actually the first joker who cleared out all the competent management- when the American got there he filled the gaps with Bain guys- then he left and the next chap was forced to use the window dressers. So what has Khaya got left- most of the window dressers have been shown their limitations and have been forced to move on, for the last year or so most of the promotions have been given to people who are functionally competent in their job- the very top jobs will always be political appointees but that’s life in the parastatal environment……then again they also seem to be able to arrange some fairly big cheques from Trevor so they have their uses!

The cost cutting drive (on the BIG issues) is in full swing and is yielding positive results- that will save the company money on a day to day basis going forward- the cell phone thing is just scratching the surface and is a bit of a sideshow from the core stuff. Right now there are several project teams working on the implementation of our new strategy- these teams are made up of full time managers as well as consultants in specialist areas where a lack of competency has been defined. These consultants have been chosen for their implementation track record with some very big carriers globally who have been in a similar position to us.

On Chicago, United are trying to bully us into a corner with their other ally in STAR, the meeting on the code share discussions have been less than cordial and we have called their bluff-if we don’t get what we believe is fair we walk away, which ,given the arrogance shown by them to date, is exactly what we will do. Fortunately we have a few other options as this situation has been brewing for the last few months and discussions have been held with 2 other carriers in the region. The net effect of this would be to push or opening of the 3rd US gateway back by 3 months- obviously this would not be Chicago

[beechbum]

[QUOTNo more recruitment till further notice...message from HR and it applies across the board.E][/QUOTE]
Strange to hear after hearing that a colleague of mine received a call from SAA with a starting date within the last 24hrs.......!!!!
Ummmmmmmmmmm!:eek:

[Deskjocky]

Im sure they will let guys who have already been made offers start- sure the airline would run foul of the LRA if they didnt.

[Ibhayi]

"Right now there are several project teams working on the implementation of our new strategy-" What happened to the old one?

DeskJockey again you know sweet diddly squat, you said the memo was circulated when? Yet this guy didn't have a firm offer till they called him within the last 24hours to say he has the job.

So you say no more hiring then suddendly woops a guy gets offered a job?

I smell BS.

[Q4NVS]

In some corridors it was whispered that if the call comes this month, it will be On or Before 6th March 2007

But there seems to be "permanent" uncertainty wrt what the Boss Man's next move will be...

:oh:

[Vasur]

So does anyone have any concrete info, as to: how many received a call, did ANYONE actually get a call, where are they from, and how many are cadets? :confused:

Only concrete info I have is that on the 340 fleet, LOTS more people required, ... and soon! :ok:

[Q4NVS]

AFAIK 2 SAX FO's (not Cadets), resigned today to join SAA.

Possibly more, but at the moment know about these 2...

:E

[V2+ A Little]

Any more news?

[Sir Osis of the river]

Heard Saa were trying to get rid of pilots for a few years. ( Ala send them on contract like the good old Air Mauritius days!!

[jbayfan]

Sir OFTR, you are right about SAA wanting to place pilots on contract, but not because they don't need them. In fact, SAA is desperately short of pilots and over the December holiday period SAA could not crew over 200 flights that would have been in the system. Hence destinations like George were not serviced by SAA.
The true story, and not rumour, is that SAA signed an agreement to increase the retirement age for pilots at SAA to 63 as of September 2005. Part of this agreement included a provision that for the first 3 years, pilots over 60 could either fly as narrow-body Captains or as wide-body FO's. In addition, the agreement stipulated that contracts and 'part-time work for part-time pay' would be introduced to absorb the impact of keeping pilots over 60. This provision was mainly for the protection of FO and junior Captain advancement. If these provisions did not absorb the impact of the over 60 pilots, then they would be carried surplus to requirement.
Being as incompetent as SAA management is, they did not implement any contracts or part-time work and, because most of the over 60 pilots opted to move to the right seat on the wide-body fleets, they started to use these pilots and most senior FO's as both P2 and P3 pilots. By doing this, they did not hold up many commands but they did start to absorb the cost of the over 60 pilots by using them as an alternative to new-hire pilots i.e. P3 flying. SAAPA, the SAA pilot's union, filed a dispute with SAA over their non-compliance with the retirement age agreement and SAA then sat down to work out what the surplus to requirement clause amounted to and landed up being short of around 82 pilots, specifically new-hire pilots. Part of the dispute filed by SAAPA includes enforcing the contracts and part-time work provision and hence SAA's desire to find contracts for its more senior pilots. In addition, by being forced to carry all of the over 60 pilots surplus, and at the rate pilots at SAA are going over 60, SAA will be lumbered with a surplus salary bill of well over R50 million per year. However, for every pilot that SAA places on contract or for every two on part-time work, SAA can then reduce their surplus to requirement pilot total by that number of pilots. It is therefore very much in SAA's interest to place as many pilots on contract or part-time work as possible.

[nugpot]

SAA will be lumbered with a surplus salary bill of well over R50 million per year.

But that is only about 20 captains. ;) Are the rest retiring?

[luther55]

Hi i know this not ther perfect place to ask this question!Dont want to create a topic for my question would be stupid.I heard that there is a airline looking for cabin crew its a sa based airline.They looking for crew to do long haul flights.The add was in the star i did not see the add.Maybe some one saw it an know bit more?Is it saa?