How Many Aircraft has the RAF Shot Down since Korea?

[JAG3]

This question is similar to one already posted on Arrse but its a very interesting one. Obviously there were RAF Harrier pilots in the Falklands but they were navy aircraft I believe.

[SASless]

Does the Tally include own side goals?

[Lazer-Hound]

IIRC, 4 x Harrier GR3 in 'Corporate', 6 x Tornado GR1 in 'Granby', 1 x Jaguar during an exercise in the 1980s. Not sure if any losses over the Balkans.

[hoodie]

"...has shot down", L-H - not "...have been shot down"

RTFQ, dear boy :}

[Green Flash]

L-H - in the light of Hoodies advice - you might want to change the 1xJag to 1XF4!:}

Didn't a Norfolk Land Shark drop on a low flying/taxi-ing Iraqi An-12?:confused:

[spekesoftly]

Obviously there were RAF Harrier pilots in the Falklands but they were navy aircraft I believe.

A number of RAF Harrier GR3s (modified to carry Sidewinder missiles) also took part in the Falklands campaign.

[Pontius Navigator]

GF, the Jag was the target not the shooter.

[Green Flash]

PN

I know. Was suggesting that LH rephrase his reply in the light of Hoodies advice. Sorry, maybe I was being a bit too obscure. I'll try to stick to statements of the bleedin' obvious from now on:O

The Phantom splashed the Jag over Germany, didn't it? I presume the Jag mate went Martin-Baker in short order.

Any confirmation on the GR4 LGB 'shoot-down' or is it some urban myth I've fallen for?

[Flatus Veteranus]

This question is similar to one already posted on Arrse but its a very interesting one. Obviously there were RAF Harrier pilots in the Falklands but they were navy aircraft I believe.

This question has already been exhaustively thrashed around on PPruNe by blokes who know what they are talking about. Why should we give a XXXX what that lot are saying over on the other channel?

[ORAC]

If the ownership of the aircraft is so important, I take it that it is now a given that any operations undetaken by GR7/9, regardless of markings and pilot service, will be credited to the RAF? :hmm:

[JAG3]

No need to take it to heart guys. I was simply looking to find out how many aircraft the RAF has shot down since Korea. I thought you guys might know a bit more about it than Arrse.

[Heimdall]

I think this topic has been done to death many times on Prune. Anyway here's what I wrote last time it emerged:

If you discount the rumours regarding a Javelin of 60 Sqn downing an Indonesian C-130 and a 20 Sqn Hunter having a manoeuvre kill against an Indonesian MiG-17 in the mid 1960s and also discount the 92 Sqn F4 v 31 Sqn Jaguar incident on 25 May 82, then I believe you have to go a long way back to find the last completely RAF air-to-air kill.

As far as I am aware, the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48. The sqn were based at Ramat David, to the southeast of Haifa, covering the final withdrawal of British Forces from Palestine following the declaration of the state of Israel on 14 May 48. Hostilities had already broken out between the Israelis and the surrounding Arab states, then on 22 May 48 at 0610 hrs two Egyptian LF9 Spitfires attacked the RAF base at Ramat David, presumably mistaking it for an Israeli base. The Spitfires strafed the Spitfires FR18s of 32 and 208 Sqns that were parked in two neat lines, destroying two and damaging another eight. Nobody was injured in the initial attack despite a number of bombs also being dropped on the airfield.

The majority of the pilots of 32 and 208 Sqns were recovering from a severe hangover when the initial attacked occurred, having enjoyed a particularly exuberant Dining In Night at which it had been decided that the Officers’ Mess would be burnt to the ground on the final departure to prevent it falling into the hands of the Israelis. After the initial attack two pilots of 208 Sqn (Fg Offs Geoff Cooper and Roy Bowie) got airborne in Spitfire FR18s and mounted a standing patrol over the airfield. At 0710 hrs three more Egyptian LF9 Spitfires returned to attack the airfield again, destroying a Dakota that was attempting to land, killing two of the crew. Cooper and Bowie shot down one Egyptian LF9 each, the third was shot down by the combined fire of two RAF Regiment Bren Gunners, Sgt Atkinson and AC Waind.

At 0930 two Egyptain LF9s decided to stage a third attack on Ramat David. This time Fg Tim Off McElhaw and Fg Off Hully of 208 Sqn had taken over the standing patrol. Fg Off McElhaw flying Spitfire FR18 TZ228 managed to intercept and shoot down both LF9s, despite this incident being the first time he had ever done any air-to-air firing.

Tim McElhaw is still alive, along with Roy Bowie – I have no idea what happened to Geoff Cooper after he retired as the aviation correspondent of the Daily Telegraph or Hully. The above details form part of an article I had published in the Jan/Feb 2005 edition of Air Enthusiast and can be viewed at: www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm.

So in answer to the question, since the Korean War started in 1950, to the best of my knowledge there has not been an air-to-air kill by an RAF pilot in an RAF aircraft since the Korean War.

Heimdall

[diginagain]

Why should we give a XXXX what that lot are saying over on the other channel?

Perhaps because some of us over on the other channel have an interest in such matters, and turn to this channel for your considerable knowledge.

[tmmorris]

Better perhaps if they asked how many of their Arrses have been saved by the RAF in air strikes...

Tim

[JAG3]

Thanks Heimdall for your post.

[glum]

And how much has it cost us to buy, maintain and fly these air to air fighters for 50 years, to not actually shoot anything down?:eek:

[Polikarpov]

And how much has it cost us to buy, maintain and fly these air to air fighters for 50 years, to not actually shoot anything down?

Probably about as much as Robber Brown manages to wazz up the wall in one morning on crackpot social engineering schemes, and somewhat better value.

[maxburner]

Glum,
I thought that was the whole idea of deterence.

[Ken Scott]

And how much has it cost us to buy, maintain and fly these air to air fighters for 50 years, to not actually shoot anything down?:eek:


Glum, surely you are not suggesting that just because these aircraft never had the opportunity to shoot down anything that we shouldn't have had them? They were kept fairly busy doing QRA against Russki aircraft during the Cold War as I remember.

Did any Chieftan tank ever fight another tank? Apart from the 'Cod War' how actively employed were the RN's ships, prior to the Falklands? Or since for that matter?

It's all about maintaining a capability, as most wars (Iraq excepted) tend to creep up on us without much warning. Even the Battle of Britain was a late spot by most strategic planners, although Dowding saw it coming, luckily for all of us. (No c**p about the RN winning that show, please!)

[soddim]

It is fair to ask 'how many' but unfair to imply that the answer indicates money not well spent. Without the capability to defend our forces or bases from air attack, our assets would be easy prey to anybody with the means to attack. It would also be an open invitation to any terrorist with access to an aircraft.
The secret is getting the right balance in spending between offence and defence and our new multi-role wonder jet should redress any imbalance when it is ready to do something useful.

[glum]

Ok. Points taken! Still seems like a waste in hindsight doesn't it?

Like thinking about how much money I've paid out in insurance on my car over the years having never claimed...

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Hey Glum,

Nip out and have a crash mate. :8

Advo

(Only makes financial sense)

[lasernigel]

Did any Chieftan tank ever fight another tank?

Emphatically YES!:ok:

[Archimedes]

How many do the Iranians still have, I wonder?

[London Mil]

Probably about the same as the number of parachute insertions (non-SF) we have done since Suez.

[Ken Scott]

Emphatically YES!:ok:


Ok, I'm guessing they were exported ones. Any British Army ones ever used in anger?

[airborne_artist]

Probably about the same as the number of parachute insertions (non-SF) we have done since Suez.

I think we've done more para insertions - don't forget the RAFR drop into Sierra Leone in support of the hooligans.

[Climebear]

Or you could add, when did the British Army last fight a combat effective (ie greater than 50% CE) convential opposition?
Answer 1982 (and then only with the help of the RM). Neither of the 2 wars against Iraq count as by the time the Land forces arrived at the scene of the action the opposition land forces had been degraded to non-effective by...
... airpower.

I think we've done more para insertions - don't forget the RAFR drop into Sierra Leone in support of the hooligans.
I thing you'll find that was RAF Regt not RAFR - and it was not in support of the Hereford Gun Club but in support of the ongoing IO campaign.

[NURSE]

so surface based missiles of the Royal Artillery have destroyed more aircraft in the air than the RAF fighter Sqns?

[Arthur's Wizard]

Here we go again. Light Blue insecurities lead to immature responses to an interesting question:rolleyes:

Lighten up chaps, behind the banter most agree that the RAF do a decent job. You don't have to 'prove' it with daft comparisons with tanks, parachutes and whether or not the Pongo's have ever faught a credible opposition.

[NURSE]

any opposition are credible whent their rounds are comming over your head!
doesn't matter if its a 6yo with an AK or a highyly trained spetznaz the effect of the round hitting you is still the same.

[jimgriff]

...and don't forget the dozens of Jindervik's lying on the bottom in Cardigan Bay!!!!

"oops, I've splashed the playmate" was a pretty regular call in these parts up until recently:8

[Ken Scott]

Here we go again. Light Blue insecurities lead to immature responses to an interesting question:rolleyes:
Lighten up chaps, behind the banter most agree that the RAF do a decent job. You don't have to 'prove' it with daft comparisons with tanks, parachutes and whether or not the Pongo's have ever faught a credible opposition.

The rather strong inference made by Glum was that the money spent on aircraft that had never shot anything down was a waste. I think it's a fair response to point out that there are plenty of weapon systems that have done likewise, & it is certainly not 'immature' to do so.

[The Helpful Stacker]

The rather strong inference made by Glum was that the money spent on aircraft that had never shot anything down was a waste. I think it's a fair response to point out that there are plenty of weapon systems that have done likewise, & it is certainly not 'immature' to do so.

Now now. Since when has cold hard reason had a place on Pprune. Come on my fellow light blue, lie down and take your kicking from the Army like men.

BTW, out of interest when did Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery last deploy in a combat role with their horses?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

BTW, out of interest when did Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery last deploy in a combat role with their horses?

No idea, but it must have cost a lot less to maintain the horses than it has to maintain the sorry remnants of Fighter Command...

Surely, given how much trade the GR fleets have had in the last 16 years, compared to how little the AD boys have done, it would make more sense to buy a posh new GR aircraft, rather than procure a supposedly world-beating AD aircraft and then try to hang bombs off it? Or am I just being a rotary w**ker again?

TOTD

[The Burning Bush]

I was simply looking to find out how many aircraft the RAF has shot down since Korea.

Well probably not that many, but should we ever take on someone with a credible airforce, I'm guessing the number might rise somewhat.

[Climebear]

Surely, given how much trade the GR fleets have had in the last 16 years, compared to how little the AD boys have done, it would make more sense to buy a posh new GR aircraft, rather than procure a supposedly world-beating AD aircraft and then try to hang bombs off it? Or am I just being a rotary w**ker again?
TOTD


History would say otherwise. Some good fighter aircraft have been used in ground attack roles very effectively SE5A,Spitfire, Hurricane, Phantom etc; However, if you build a bomber and then try and turn it into a fighter then you get... ... well an F3!

[glum]

Well probably not that many, but should we ever take on someone with a credible airforce, I'm guessing the number might rise somewhat.

Should we ever take on a credible airforce, we're f*cked!

Who counts as credible these days? China? Argentina? Russia?

Who are we likely to take on single-handedly?

[sharmine]

[quote=Heimdall;3047953]
As far as I am aware, the last RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft to achieve an air-to-air kill was Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn on 22 May 48.

This rather changes the period of the question which by its very nature would indicate that the RAF had shot down something in the Korean War. Maybe it should have read:

How many aircraft have the RAF shot down since WWII?

I guess the answer would be as above. Would appear that the FAA have had a greater success rate than the RAF (with the help of the few) no wonder the RAF were grinning at the demise of the mighty, combat proven:D , SHAR.


Sharmine

[Wiley]

I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned the RAF Javelin that "definitely didn't" shoot down an Indonesian Air Force C130 that "definitely wasn't" dropping paratroopers into Malaysia in the mid sixties during Confrontation.

The incident that "definitely didn't happen" was denied at all levels from day one, but I understsnd there were a few ill-disguised smiles to be seen around Tengah at the time.

[sled dog]

Wiley, you might find that the " alleged " Javelin shoot-down of the C130 was a 64 Sqdn a/c, and perhaps the " missing " Firestreak was an optical allusion ? :E

[NutherA2]

The only basis for the rumoured shooting down of an Indonesian C130 I can think of occurred on the night that they carried out a paratroop drop on the Malayan mainland at Labis. At that time we (60 Sqn) were holding a very high state of readiness, with some 10 to 12 aircraft on QRA. There was no scramble that night, however, rumour control later said that Bukit Gombak radar had “seen something” but had decided not to react. Later still rumour control said that 2 Hercules had made the drop, but that there had originally been 3 on the low-level operation, 1 of which had not RTB and may have flown into the sea. The word was that an Air Attaché, when subtly questioned at a social function in Jakarta as to whether the RAF had been involved in any relevant activity, just gave an enigmatic smile and “made no comment”; mainly because this was the first we had heard of any possible loss.:)

I think this is probably the root of the shoot-down rumour; I was one of the QRA pilots that night and was in fact scrambled the following night, but that was a false alarm.:ugh:

[moggiee]

I know a chap who shot down his own boss in Malaya - does that count as "enemy"?

[The Burning Bush]

Who counts as credible these days? China? Argentina? Russia?
Who are we likely to take on single-handedly?

Well actually I was thinking of somewhere more like......Iran for example.

Are you suggesting that kills achieved as part of a coalition would not count?

[Archimedes]

FWIW, the Indonesian C-130 enigma gets a spot of coverage here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154569&page=3&) from a couple of years ago (posts #45 & #51).

[Ivor Fynn]

I'm almost certain that a Laarbruch crew JP233'd (am I even allowed to say that) a fulcrum that was short finals during Granby. I remember seeing the Sat image with a Mig 29 shape burnt out a couple of hundred yards short of the runway but stand to be corrected if necessary. It was never counted as an air to air, but If I remember correctly the aircraft had a Mig cartoon on the nose and was called Mig Killer, it might have been the 20 Sqn ac FK but not sure.

Ivor Fynn

[Archimedes]

Ivor - Yep, although it was MiG Eater (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/pics/gulfwar/torn/Tornado%20GR1%20ZA447%20'EA'%20Mig%20Eater%20(RTB%20Laarbruc h).jpg)

[GeeRam]

This rather changes the period of the question which by its very nature would indicate that the RAF had shot down something in the Korean War.

RAF pilots certainly shot down a/c in the Korean War, they just weren't flying RAF a/c at the time.

[NutherA2]

IIRC a Mig was shot down in Korea by a RN pilot flying a British aircraft (Sea Fury).

[sharmine]

RAF pilots certainly shot down a/c in the Korean War, they just weren't flying RAF a/c at the time.


Bit like the Falklands then.:ok:

[GeeRam]

IIRC a Mig was shot down in Korea by a RN pilot flying a British aircraft (Sea Fury).

Lt. Peter Carmichael of 802 NAS, flying a Sea Fury FB.11 shot down a Mig15 on 9th Aug 1952.


Bit like the Falklands then.

Not quite, they were flying proper fighters....:E

{Doning a tin hat and running for the slit trench:p }

[sharmine]

[quote=GeeRam;3061334]


Not quite, they were flying proper fighters....:E

Ehm? Well if you don't consider the SHAR a proper fighter it sure made a good attempt in 82.:ok:

From a Fleet Defence fighter perspective, it knocks spots off the GR7/9 the fleet is now left with.:bored: Oh, forgot, lots of type 45s out there to protect our carriers and no enemy fighters anyway.

Sharmine

[brain fade]

Apparantly Carmichaels claim on the MiG is a myth. Sadly can't give a reference but even his fellow pilots on the day didn't believe him.

[Archimedes]

Not too sure about that, bf. The 802 NAS diarist believed him, and the other three members of his flight who witnessed the shooting down believed him too...

The flight all shot at the MiG that went down, but it was accepted that Carmichael had been responsible for despatching it.

[Maple 01]

There was an interesting article in Aeroplane a few years back by Carmichael's wingmen

He said that of his four-ship all fired their guns in anger in the general direction of the enemy and in the mêlée no-one was certain who had administered the killing blow to the MiG, Carmichael still had enough 20mm to do a practice strafe on the way home so is unlikely to be in the frame. His explanation was that the Admiralty needed a hero to present to the great British public so Carmichael was chosen

Still, fair dos, taking out a MiG with a Sea Fury's quite a thing

[Archimedes]

That's interesting. Had a look at the diary entry. It in fact says something to the effect that the three wingmen were all claiming their quarter share of the MiG as well. John Lansdowne's book says simply that Carmichael was credited with the victory 'as flight leader'.

[Jackonicko]

I had then honour of meeting and talking to Carmichael, and he seemed entirely pukka to me. In any case, weren't there two kills - one credited to Carmichael (also fired at by Smoo Ellis) and one credited to the Flight as a whole?

Most of the RAF kills in Korea were, of course, scored by exchange blokes flying F-86s.