Top rudder in turns

[jsmitty01]

Recently I went for a check on a different aircraft and we went out for a quick bit of general handling before some circuits.

During the steep turns the instructor said to me that instead of pulling harder and tightening the turn, I could just dab in a bit of top rudder. I must admit I was never taught this and it seemed a curious method to use and most especially teach. He had recently completed his instructor rating at a school which I thought had a good reputation. I had been schooled that if the turn was going pear shaped and I had to pull harder it was better to ease off the bank and try again.

I took his method on board and stored it into the "I'll have to check that" file and promptly forgot about it. Last night I was going through old AF magazines and found an article by JD on rudders in which he says this method is "rubbish".

Thoughts? Comments? Is this another case of a poorly taught instructor?

[sir.pratt]

is this in a cessna or piper? is there a linked rudder/aileron? are you in balance before adding top rudder? do you use rudder in the turn as a matter of course?
i do a lot of descending from 10000ft in a 206, and i've found the easiest way to get 1200fpm going is 22/22, 130kts, 45deg turn, with full top rudder (or at least get the ball right out) - slips out of the sky beautifully. i can't see how increasing top rudder above the balance ball is going to help you in a steep straight and level turn.

[XRNZAF]

Sounds like a poorly taught instructor to me. In a steep turn use back pressure to maintain your alt, using top rudder will simply put you out of balance.

Also as you increase BP just check your angle of bank. The aircraft may tend to roll in further and you'll loose more height which will make you apply more back pressure and the whole thing turns into a spiral descent if left unchecked!

I hope this instructor doesn't teach this same "technique" for Max Rate turns or someones gonna get themselves into a nasty spin and die one day.

[The Messiah]

You can answer your own question by reviewing the reasons for certain control inputs such as in a steep turn an increase in back pressure is required to increase the AoA due to the loss of your vertical component of lift which will then increase induced drag requiring an increase in thrust etc etc.

Maybe explain basic aerodynamics to your instructor sounds like he may need it.

[Dog One]

Quite a strange idea. In a balanced steep turn, the ball should remain in the centre to balance the turn. Under check circumstances, an unbalanced turn would require a repeat, and if continued lack of use of the rudder was shown, a fail would occur. Use of top rudder in a Tiger or Chipmunk was the classic way to spin the aircraft out of a steep turn.

It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are moved, especially on rotate and with adjustments from climb/cruise/descent.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Sounds like another entry for the "Rubbish Taught by Instructors" thread.

[Ratshit]

]"It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are moved, especially on rotate and with adjustments from climb/cruise/descent"[/I]

I have never flown a "reasonably high powered turboprop", but I would have thought that a properly flown C210 is as much in need of good rudder work as one is likely to come across.

The only thing I have flown that required more judicious use of rudder was a sail plane trainer that you had to lead with rudder into a turn.

R:cool:

[27/09]

JSMitty01

Sounds to me like a "good idea" invented by the new instructor.

You would be doing him and his future students a big favour by tactfully letting him know that his technique is flawed. If you feel that you don't have the experience or the "right" do this yourself have a quite chat to his supervising instructor.

Sir.Pratt
I'm highjacking the thread a bit here but I feel compelled to comment on your technique. Full rudder 130 knots? What is Va? At the weight you are at Va will be a lot less than 130 knots I suspect. The technique I was taught gave very much in excess of 1200fpm, with no crazy control inputs and no structural or engine issues.

[scrambler]

I am wondering if Sir Pratt is conducting parachute jumping operations?

There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).

Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).

I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.

http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publications/jump_pilot_2005.pdf

[4SPOOLED]

if you need top rudder then you are not correctly holding off bank with opp aileron.

One thing when doing my instructor rating when conducting the steep turns lesson we were taught to make sure student was not using top rudder as you are flying out of balance.

if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB

The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing!

4S

[Feather #3]

One rather suspects this should be in another well viewed thread?

For further excitement, try this technique in the Winjeel.

Merry Xmas!;)

[Ratshit]

if you need top rudder then you are not correctly holding off bank with opp aileron. One thing when doing my instructor rating when conducting the steep turns lesson we were taught to make sure student was not using top rudder as you are flying out of balance.

if you are not stabilised in the turn, reduce angle of bank, re stabilise and rolll back to 45/60 whatever the required AOB

The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing! 4S

Which brings us quite neatly to "The rubbish taught by flying instructors"!

Is there a complete breakdown of supervision and checking? My CFI would have quickly kicked this crap out of me if I had come out with it as a Junior Instructor!

R:cool:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Wonder of he/she also teaches orbits on late final? That would work well with top rudder!:}
ducks for cover..................

Merry Christmas to all!!:) :ok:

[sir.pratt]

I am wondering if Sir Pratt is conducting parachute jumping operations?
There seems to be a culture amoungst jump pilots that have developed various methods of steep turning in the belief that it is the best method of descent. (or perhaps that it is more fun????).
Maybe they should grab their copy of the APF jump manual and re-read page 20 (on descending).
I am certain that these procedures are written for a reason, and by groups with alot more experience than those of us just trying to build hours.
http://www.apf.asn.au/Documents/Publications/jump_pilot_2005.pdf


as an LAME, i am well aware of the issues regarding thermal shock. it keeps me in employment! at 22/22 and 130kts, cowls closed, thermal shock is not an issue. 17" or less will cause serious damage, especially on a cold day. if it's cold, i'll descend @ 24/24, still at 130kts. the question here was about top rudder - top rudder in a tight descending turn will cause an increase in ROD, it won't make any difference to the rate of cooling. 17"/130kts and a 500fpm ROD will cause as much damage as 17"/130kts/1200fpm. i am aware of the aerodymanic issues and spiral dive danges with top rudder in the descending tight turn, i fly the aircraft all the way - one guy i know trims it right out of balance, but i'm not too comfortable with that.

[scrambler]

I didn't mention the thermal shock issue
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents

"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."

[ScottyDoo]

It seems to me that use of the rudder is not well taught these days, especially endorsing people on reasonably high powered turbo props which require rudder inputs as the power levers are movedThat's because we're all going to be airline jet pilots..... We won't need to use the rudders so why bother??

[Tee Emm]

The instructor prob didnt know any better, maybe you should point it out to him, or talk to the CFI, as its not a good thing if this instructor keeps going like this as he will instruct students who go onto being instructors teaching the same thing

Operations normal, of course.

[sir.pratt]

I didn't mention the thermal shock issue
Read the complete page (my bolding)
I asked the question why some jump pilots seem to insist on spiral descents
"A spiral is not recommended because the
airframe will be subjected to unnecessary
loads particularly if unexpected turbulence is
encountered. Care must be taken to maintain
balanced flight to avoid problems with fuel
cross flow during descent when your fuel load
is low. At any sign of rough running
immediately level the wings and check that
the plane is in balanced flight. [ball in the
middle] then carry out the appropriate
emergency procedures applicable to the
situation."

thermal shock is a more real danger than a flown steep turn (as opposed to an out of control spiral dive) - nothing worse than it all going quiet up front
there's no fuel cross-over on the 206, so that's not an issue. sufficient gas and a knowledge of how the fuel system works prevents fuel starvation.
unexpected turbulence? as long as i'm 10-15kts below vmo it would have to be some pretty amazing turbulence to make a difference - and turbulence is not generally an issue where my base is, as long as i stay away from the occasional cloud.
3 or 4 laps in each direction helps with PA.
what 'unneccesary loads?' a controlled slip is approved in the POH, as long as no flap is down.
how many descents have you done from 10000' overhead the airfeild, having to stay within a 5 mile radius?

merry christmas :)

[OCTA]

Sir Pratt

Side slipping spiral dives really don't save you time and only help to cause more stress on the airframe. As your a lame I'm sure you'll understand what the vertical fin is desinged to do i.e. stop the aircraft for slipping so all the time the are in a full rudder side slip and high speed (for a 206 130kts is high speed) you are putting alot of force on the entire tail surface and causing a twisting of the airframe. Then the increased risk of having the engine stop due to lack of fuel getting in the fuel line with a slip on not worth the risk. They guy who wrote the jump pilots guide does know what he is talking about he's only been doing it for 30 years!

Go out and try a decent without spiral diving and without side slipping with 10' of flap out and then try it your way. If it saves you more than a minute I'll be stunned.

And yes i've flown jumpers 300 hours in 206's 300 in 182's and lots more in bigger jump planes. Great fun and if there was any money in it i'd probably still be doing it!

OCTA

[sir.pratt]

how do you do 10deg flap, under 90kts, without shock cooling? i can't get above 17" in that config, which drops the front cyls too much

[youngmic]

as an LAME, i am well aware of the issues regarding thermal shock. it keeps me in employment! at 22/22 and 130kts, cowls closed, thermal shock is not an issue. 17" or less will cause serious damage, especially on a cold day.

Not to sure about that at all. A very over simplistic approach to the subject. An educated pilot may well be able to descend with 17" inches MP and no damage what so ever. I am not here to suggest they should. The fact that you are a LAME will have many readers here taking your word as gospel. Strong comments like 17" at 130kts WILL cause serious damage perpetuates the myth. Perhaps you could add a little more to that comment so those who are still learning the basics of the subject learn the fundamentals of shock cooling.

As for the original thread some aircraft do tend to display a tendancy for just a touch of top rudder during sustained turns. In principal they shoudn't but they do. At the end of the day if the ball is centered during a sustained turn then it is safe to say you a pretty well in a balanced turn.

[Orographic]

Ok, Stupid-trainee question time

define "top rudder"

is is this full travel of rudder peddles / auctuators? or something else.

just makeing sure i am reading the thread correctly :)

[AerocatS2A]

"Top rudder" is when you apply rudder towards the outside of a turn. So in a right turn you'd apply left rudder (called top rudder becaue you are pushing with the leg that is at the "top" of the aircraft.) The instructor in the OP suggests applying top rudder in a steep turn to keep the nose up. This is a load of crap in my opinion. Top rudder will put you out of balance which increases drag which degrades performance which is the last thing you want in a steep turn.

[lostpianoplayer]

Um. For what it's worth, one of the aircraft I fly - a Spezio Tuholer, which is an old design taildragger - definitely seems to require some top rudder in steep turns to keep it in balance. I don't know why, but it does. Over a certain bank angle, if I don't use top rudder, it ?slips TOWARDS the turn. I recall one of my instructors, a long time ago, telling me something like "quite a few old biplanes require a little top rudder in turns". Could be a myth, I guess, although it certainly seems real enough when I fly the Spezio. It's a draggy monoplane, not a biplane, with a lot of adverse yaw, yaw/roll coupling, and so on. I've never needed top rudder in a Cessna though...

...and in another aircraft, a Harmon Rocket, I REALLY struggle to get the damn thing down without risking shock cooling, cos it's so overpowered & fast. It's a little tricky cos my airstrip (1500 ft ASL) is right after a mountain pass of about 5500 ft. After a great deal of experimentation, I've settled on this procedure:

Gradually cool the engine for a few minutes on approach if possible, over the last mountain pass at about 6000 feet, then a high speed cruise descent, if turbulence permits, to 3500 or so - then cut power very briefly, one or two tight 360s, (without using much control deflection so as not to blow VA), to slow down and put full flap down at 115 knots, and then power up again, at 100 knots, and slip or spiral the rest of the way down. I'm not all that happy with it - would prefer not to cut the engine at all - but it seems to be the only way to get down fast without putting excess stress on the airframe, or risking shock cooling the engine. (And I have to get it down fast because of noise abatement issues - otherwise of course I could just fly around in a more sedate manner. Unfortunately this is not a good option, politically speaking, although clearly the best otherwise.)

I would be very interested to know if anyone has any better suggestions for descending quickly in a slippery, very powerful piston engined aircraft. Normal cruise is about 200 knots, VFE is 120. It's fast enough that it'll set off the shock cooling alarm in level flight, at full power, immediately after takeoff, so I usually have to keep her climbing, just to slow down the rate of cooling of the engine. Or not take off at full power, which is of course not recommended. After a normal flight, prior to descent, CHTs can be up to 360, and I note that my shock cooling alarms switches off at 300. Does this mean that at CHTs below 300, shock cooling is not an issue?

Seems to me that a bootful of rudder at 130 knots would definitely risk blowing VA, in many aircraft, but no doubt Sir Pratt knows his machine...

[ContactMeNow]

Im not too sure what to say to the "top of rudder" in a turn, maybe you were out of balance?

As for high speed decents :E 21/21 and 140kts or just below WX pending (top of green arc) worked well for me in a C182, got me 2000fpm average on the way down, sometimes 2500fpm average if the weather was ncie to me. All of this was done with WINGS LEVEL AND IN BALANCE! :ok:

Normal practise for me was to go 7nm out and then come back in and that will give me a nice profile for CCT entry and landing, or if I was giving a distance limitation then (3-5nm) then the RoD will decrease in a turn, thus taking a bit longer to go down!

Give me a turbine anyday for PJE :ok: mmmm beta.... have they got an STC out for a "gate" like fitting so when all the jumpers get out you can shut this gate and it blocks off the Relative airflow through the engine cowling? that would make idle decents in pistons achievable, and faster turn around times!

Merry Xmas to all
CMN

[Orographic]

Thanks Aerocat, i was wondering why it didn't seem to make sense ...

to correct for a bad habit of over-defecting rudder into turn maybe? ....even that explination doesn't feel right, although i can't express why. maybe i am forgetting the physics involved

[zkdli]

Want to know about top rudder in a turn? Just go the the thread on Stall recovery, take the link and look at how to enter an inicpient spin:O

[Chimbu chuckles]

lostpianoplayer et al.

Shock cooling is more myth than fact.

What engine/prop are you running in your Harmon Rocket?

In my Bonanza (IO550b/3 bladed Blac Mac) I can prove it to you with the EDM 700 engine monitor. I generally cruise LOP but the same theory works ROP. I have shown a very experienced CFI and he just shook his head in disbelief...before walking away, and I strongly suspect, convincing himself he didn't really see what he thought he saw.

What I do on descent is the following.

When I want to descend I poke the nose down for a desired rate of descent.
As speed builds up I wind back the rpm...eventually all the way back to min governing.

When that is not enough to keep the speed in the green (about 3000') I reach out and in one smooth motion pull the throttle back from wide open, where it has been since takeoff, to around 16in MP. In doing so I dramatically decrease the air available to the combustion chambers and this enrichens the mixture from about 30-40F LOP to 50F ROP. 50-80F ROP is the hottest place to run your engine from a CHT point of view.

When I do that all the EGT bar graphs in the engine monitor increase (richer mixture burns hotter when you start from LOP) and the rate at which the CHTs cool actually slows down...this is the bit the CFI couldn't get his head around...the CHTs cool slower but I am still on a high speed descent with the IAS at the top of the green arc but the throttle pulled out to just above gear warning horn. You can actually see them ticking down a degree at a time on descent and when I pull the throttle they almost stop ticking down...the rate of cooling visibly slows.

It's fast enough that it'll set off the shock cooling alarm in level flight, at full power, immediately after takeoff

I would be prepared to bet folding money the alarm sounding in this case is not your shock cooling alarm. It is more likely to be a high CHT alarm which may be set too low...what is that set at now? If it is set at less than 400F it is set too low. If your hottest cylinders see 360F just after takeoff that is no problem at all. Keep them at less than 380F in cruise...if you're running an injected Continental without GAMIjectors I strongly recommend fitting them.

On descent do as I do and if you're running ROP just lean the mixture enough to be around peak EGT. In this configuration, peak EGT and min RPM you can happily pull the throttle back with no fear of shock cooling anything because you will be effectively enrichening the mixture to around 50-80F ROP when you reduce throttle. You may find they are around 300-330F when you pull the throttle closed...they can't shock cool at this point because they are already cool.

As you approach circuit ht pull the throttle back to 12-13in MP and carry that into the circuit. You will find even if you hit the circuit at 200kts, one 180 degree turn...upwind to downwind...say 45 degree AOB level turn with a little 'G' will have you down to flap speed without all the carryon you're experiencing now...and with really low RPM and low MP you will be effectively in stealth mode and the neighbours likely won't hear you at all.

With a little practice and thought you will be able to time it so you hit flap speed abeam the landing threshold and simply add flap in a constant turn onto final while leaving the power alone...once down to approach speed on final the prop will be on the fine pitch stop anyway and you can shove it up to full fine for a go around without it making any noise at all.

Top rudder in a steep turn?

Not unless you're flying something with massive torque, like a Spitfire, Mustang, Bearcat etc...or something with very strange aerodynamics. Neither case applicable here I think.

[What time is ECT?]

Top rudder is a useful descriptive phrase. While performing a turn, Aileron controls bank angle, elevator controls attitude (and therefore altitude), and rudder controls balance.

If the student concerned has put too much bottom rudder on (blindly believing that left turn always needs left rudder and right turn always needs right rudder) then a touch of top rudder will put the balance ball in the middle.

If you read the POH for Cessna 152 Aerobat, there is an aerobatic manouver that starts with a max-rate turn. When you apply full top rudder and full back elevator, the aircraft will flick over into a max-rate turn the other way (if you catch it at the right time). Good handling exercise - as well as a demonstration of why flying out of balance on a turn is not recommended - meat bombers take note.

Have fun.
ECT?

[OCTA]

From memory (its been awhile since i've flown a 206) 10' flap speed is about 140kts? (top of the green) Thats been in every 206 i've flown anyway. so 22'' 2200 rpm and away you go. You should get at least 2000 fpm if not more.

If you ever get a chance to use a digital cht gauge you'll actually see the major cooling takes place in the first two minutes of decent after that the temp stays pretty much the same no matter what you do.

octa

[sir.pratt]

i've tried that flick manouvre - i found it difficult to master tidily. looks easy in the poh though. the pitts does it with ease :E
and although thermal shock is not distinct/limited to the conti 520 found in most 206s, it is a significant consideration as they are suspectible to cracking. the 540 lycoming is not as 'fragile', but chuck a turbo on it (ala chieftan) and try to convince an owner to let you do assymetrical flight in it.
and the 550's have a less than desireable history when used for parachute ops.
a pt6 would solve most the problems.... :)
but anyway, this is about top rudder.......

[sir.pratt]

From memory (its been awhile since i've flown a 206) 10' flap speed is about 140kts? (top of the green) Thats been in every 206 i've flown anyway. so 22'' 2200 rpm and away you go. You should get at least 2000 fpm if not more.
If you ever get a chance to use a digital cht gauge you'll actually see the major cooling takes place in the first two minutes of decent after that the temp stays pretty much the same no matter what you do.
octa

100 is vfe, or 90 in earlier models. (shown as 61-110mph in the POH).

the white arc is flap range.

[kd_nub]

The only thing I have flown that required more judicious use of rudder was a sail plane trainer that you had to lead with rudder into a turn.

R:cool:

The DHC beaver is the aircraft I have flown that requires the constant use of rudder. lead with rudder just like the glider.

one has to remember, rudder is sort of the forgotton flight control, i know of pilots who think its only for steering on the ground and kicking it straight before touchdown!
I am lucky to have a boss who is a rudder fanatic and he makes sure everyone knows what they are for.

[sir.pratt]

even flying a 172 without rudder is a precurser to out-of-balance, shabby flying. i know some people who have been taught to fly (admittedly in piper aircraft with spring linked aileron/rudder) with their feet flat on the floor!

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I've been lucky enough to fly the Tucano (1200hp tandem seat trainer) and that bad boy uses some serious rudder! Only time I have used top rudder though is during a slow roll or 4 point turn, and that feels damned awkward so JUST KEEP IT IN BALANCE!

[Chimbu chuckles]

I use 'top' rudder in a turn everytime I fly my Bonanza...turning left onto crosswind after takeoff with full power (lots of torque) and slow speed...less than 110kts usually....If I was turning right I would be using more right or 'bottom' rudder...and actually when I use 'top'/right rudder on the left turn I am actually using less right rudder than was the case before the turn commenced...if you get my drift:ok:

Like I said above...lots of torque or strange aerodynamics...and I would be very surprised if many/any aeroplanes have flown/still fly with aerodynamic properties that strange...plenty with lots of torque/P factor at slow speed though.

AP I assume you mean 4 point roll not 4 point turn:} :ok:

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Yeah, good spot! I was watching a driving program at the time so thinking one thing typing another!
A 4 point TURN, now that would be interesting:ok:

[AerocatS2A]

I use 'top' rudder in a turn everytime I fly my Bonanza...turning left onto crosswind after takeoff with full power (lots of torque) and slow speed...less than 110kts usually....If I was turning right I would be using more right or 'bottom' rudder...and actually when I use 'top'/right rudder on the left turn I am actually using less right rudder than was the case before the turn commenced...if you get my drift:ok:

Well, "top rudder" to keep in balance, although technically is top rudder, isn't what I think of as "top rudder". To me the default rudder position is whatever you require to keep the aircraft in balance and then being told to use some "top rudder" implies putting the aircraft out of balance and causing the aircraft to slip into the turn.

If, in the OPs case, he was guilty of flying out of balance and the instructor was telling him to use some top rudder for that reason alone, then that is poor instructional technique and confusing.

[DFB]

100 is vfe, or 90 in earlier models. (shown as 61-110mph in the POH).
Actually sir.pratt.... OCTA is correct
Wing Flaps:
0 to 10 deg is below 140KIAS, 10 to 40 deg is below 100KIAS

[sir.pratt]

ok. where's that from though? i've got the poh in front of me and i can't find it (the 10deg<140kts bit)

[scrambler]

1975 Model owners handbook (U206F)
0 - 10 deg 160MPH, 10 - 40 deg 120MPH (138 kts & 104 kts)

ASI markings flap operating range (white arc) 66-120 MPH

Check the markings adjacent to the flap control, on the Cessna they normally have the speeds marked next to the indent (on the newer types)

[lostpianoplayer]

1. Chimbu, thanks for the comprehensive reply re shock cooling. I'll check out your method next time I fly. Mind if I PM you? (I don't wanna hijack the thread)

2. Top rudder - Aerocat's definition of top rudder, I guess, is narrower than I was thinking. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. (I guess I need a hobby :} ) In my Spezio, in a very steep turn, if I roll hard and pull enough back pressure to stay level, the nose definitely does not display adverse yaw - it drops towards the ground, and I can feel it's out of balance, so I need to apply top rudder - ie, by my definition, right rudder in a left steep turn - to keep the aircraft in balance. There's nothing particularly aerodynamically crazy about the Spezio, it's just an old design. It shows definite adverse yaw in shallow banks, but the opposite in steep banks. Am I hallucinating?

[Bula]

If the nose drops to the ground.....
A) You dont have enough back pressure or

B) The aircraft is completely out of balance as you entered the turn you have commenced the beginning of a mild spiral dive.... hence why if continue to apply back pressure but it just doesn't want to maintain height but I am pulling G's that feel normal.... so we will use a little rudder to raise that nose attitude a little....

Not really that good and I wouldn't recommend it. The control issues it exagerates in a low powered learn to fly aircraft can be bad for someone starting out.

If you really want to, trying this a climbing turn is a good start. Now just increase that angle of bank a little, try the hold the climb attitude with rudder and HOLD!!! HOLD!!!! HOLD!!! OH :mad: !

May I suggest a C152 and an instructor with experience in aerobatics.
or

C) the aircraft is bent like most GA aircraft ..... :hmm:
Top rudder may just be a balance issue... Just have a look see.

[TLAW]

Can anyone tell me how to hold the nose up in a 90 degree AOB turn?

[sir.pratt]

have 400hp out the front?

[lostpianoplayer]

Bula, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try both. The Spezio is out of the air right now - it'll be interesting to check it out. I am wondering if maybe I'm not applying enough back pressure, but...um...hell, I dunno. When it's ready to fly again I'll do a little experimentation.

I don't think I'm flying it out of balance, but I'll explore that possibility too. Up until now, I really did just think that for unknown reasons, it requires top rudder in a steep turn. It's not a biggie to me - I just mentioned it on this thread cos it seemed pertinent. I'm VERY interested in Chimbu's comments about about shock cooling though - the Harmon Rocket I fly - a hopped up IO540 with a CSU, can easily exceed 210 knots on descent, with low power settings, and this whams the CHT's down pretty fast, and that, unlike aircraft requiring top rudder due to design flaw/faulty construction/pilot error, could be VERY expensive!

[Chimbu chuckles]

PM me re the CHT issues.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Can anyone tell me how to hold the nose up in a 90 degree AOB turn?
Ahhh, roll off 20deg. No aircraft can maintain an inbalance 90deg AOB turn for long. If its for purely for aesthetic reasons then find an aircraft with AMAZING rudder authority but be prepared to have your internal organs momentarily displaced:ok:

[APMR]

Can anyone tell me how to hold the nose up in a 90 degree AOB turn?

Surprising question. No transport category aircraft is capable of a 90 degree AoB steady-state turn, but some aerobatic aircraft are.

How's your theory on turning flight? Just what is a "steady state" turn anyway? To rephrase the question, are the forces in equilibrium during a turn?

To see the "forces in a turn" diagram that instructors draw on the whiteboard you would realise that these instructors do not have a grasp on the physics of turning flight; they would get the previous question wrong.

Does the aircraft yaw during a turn? Does it roll? Does it pitch?

Answers:

The forces are not in equilibrium. Turning flight is accelerated flight.

During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).

[4SPOOLED]

I use 'top' rudder in a turn everytime I fly my Bonanza...turning left onto crosswind after takeoff with full power (lots of torque) and slow speed...less than 110kts usually....If I was turning right I would be using more right or 'bottom' rudder...and actually when I use 'top'/right rudder on the left turn I am actually using less right rudder than was the case before the turn commenced...if you get my drift:ok:
Like I said above...lots of torque or strange aerodynamics...and I would be very surprised if many/any aeroplanes have flown/still fly with aerodynamic properties that strange...plenty with lots of torque/P factor at slow speed though.
AP I assume you mean 4 point roll not 4 point turn:} :ok:

The original thread was asking top rudder in a tight turn such as you are taught when you conduct your steep turns lessons.

Now we have people discussing shock cooling and other short cuts that will just confuse the poor bloke who started the thread!

Maybe another thread should be started on "shock cooling" and "bush tips and short cuts" :)

4S

[4SPOOLED]

Just what is a "steady state" turn anyway? To rephrase the question, are the forces in equilibrium during a turn?

To see the "forces in a turn" diagram that instructors draw on the whiteboard you would realise that these instructors do not have a grasp on the physics of turning flight; they would get the previous question wrong.

Does the aircraft yaw during a turn? Does it roll? Does it pitch?

Answers:

The forces are not in equilibrium. Turning flight is accelerated flight.

During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).

Dont teach equilibrium in a turn, else you would not continue to turn if you where:ok:

Remember centipetal and centrifugal forces :ok:

Anyway this thread kind of sucks now, im going to go to bed and get some zzzzzzs for a flight tomorrow

Safe Flying

4S

[AerocatS2A]

During a turn, the aircraft is continuously yawing and rolling, but there is no pitching (unless we are talking about an aerobatic aircraft doing a 90 degree AoB "turn", in which case it is all pitch with no roll or yaw).
Get a model aeroplane. Make it yaw and roll in such a way that it is turning in level flight, can you do it without pitching? I can't.

[APMR]

Get a model aeroplane. Make it yaw and roll in such a way that it is turning in level flight, can you do it without pitching? I can't.

Quite correct AerocatS2A - my mistake. The level, steady state turn consists of continuous roll, pitch and yaw. Well done and thanks for the correction!

[Ratshit]

Just when you think that "Top rudder in turns" has faded into oblivion, and you think to yourself, "Good fecking riddance" - it bounces back to the top of the dung heap!

R:cool:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Next thing you know we'll be talking about what controls airspeed on final!:E
Ducks and runs like hell!

[AerocatS2A]

Depends on the size of the treadmill you're landing on.

[Arm out the window]

Noooo...not the treadmill!!

I don't go for the continuous rolling part, though - pitch and yaw, yes, but once the bank angle's established, it remains steady, doesn't it?