Question for NATS employees involved with SAMOS

[datafox]

Just curious, for those of you that use SAMOS when it doesn't report representative weather conditions do you edit the data prior to dissemination?

Here in the U.S., our version of SAMOS (called ASOS) frequently is left as-is by FAA ATC even though it isn't reporting anything near reality. It's a problem for me as a I frequently fly into airports (even larger class "C" airspace fields) where the METAR data is inaccurate or not representative.

I sometimes wonder if an accident will eventually be caused by inaccurate data.

[SilentHandover]

SAMOS is corrected at Gatwick, the only time it is left on AUTO mode is when staff are unavailable e.g. due sickness.

[Gonzo]

Same at Heathrow, only on auto at night for two hours to allow a responsibility free break.

[wiccan]

Manch too....
Tho' to be "technical", Samos has a "Static Cloud Base Recorder" as opposed to Mets "Swinging Thingy" :E
bb

[letMfly]

Same at Aberdeen. Our ATSAs have partial MET Obs certificates which allow them to correct SAMOS information but not to provide met observations.

My question is: What do other NATS Units do when the SAMOS fails?

We have a backup system which provides everything apart from visibility, weather, cloud heights and amounts. However our ATSAs cannot give obs and the ATCOs can't give "unofficial observations from the tower" as that is only allowed if they percieve the WX to be worse than the official MET, and there won't be one if the SAMOS is goosed.

Our local instructions say that ADC is to determine whether the prevailing WX conditions would normally allow the affected procedures to be used but I guess that if it is anything much less than VMC, pilots would need cloud and visibility information before commencing an approach.

Your thoughts please.

[datafox]

SAMOS is corrected at Gatwick, the only time it is left on AUTO mode is when staff are unavailable e.g. due sickness.

That is good to know. Unfortunately in the U.S., FAA ATC personnel seem to frequently leave ASOS reporting unrepresentative conditions, even when they are "logged in" to the system. Sometimes ATC personnel don't even log into the system and leave the observations in AUTO even when the control tower is open.

At the largest airports there are still weather observers which do quite a good job at augmenting the automated data. I believe ASOS operates with the same type of technology as SAMOS, however ASOS was designed in the early 1990s.

You would think the FAA would understand the need for reasonably accurate weather data and would understand the liability if the data is not up to standards, however this just isn't so.

[Scott Voigt]

Datafox;

Did you know that at the larger airports the controllers don't do the augmenting, but a contract weather observer???? We give them the tower vis, but that is it... I think that you will find that at most locations where the tower does provide the back up as long as they have the staffing to keep up with the changing weather they will keep it up to date. Of course with our staffing starting to tank at some locations, that may be problematic. Oh, also, if you are having issues with the weather reporting, please file NASA ASRS reports to document it.

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Safety and Tech Chairman
Southwest Region

[datafox]

Datafox;
Did you know that at the larger airports the controllers don't do the augmenting, but a contract weather observer???? We give them the tower vis, but that is it... I think that you will find that at most locations where the tower does provide the back up as long as they have the staffing to keep up with the changing weather they will keep it up to date. Of course with our staffing starting to tank at some locations, that may be problematic. Oh, also, if you are having issues with the weather reporting, please file NASA ASRS reports to document it.
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Safety and Tech Chairman
Southwest Region

Yes, I've filed several NASA ASRS reports regarding this issue.

Thanks.

[throw a dyce]

[Our local instructions say that ADC is to determine whether the prevailing WX conditions would normally allow the affected procedures to be used but I guess that if it is anything much less than VMC, pilots would need cloud and visibility information before commencing an approach.
Your thoughts please.[/QUOTE]
I think that visibility is only an issue when the RVR is below minima.As for cloud then there is no way to state it,so I guess it's not available.How we work out how to put on Safeguarding then not sure.If the cloud is down on the reservoir on the hill,then put it on?:\
Computers don't fail do they.I've got a Met Obs ticket from another country,but can't use it here.:=

[Standard Noise]

Well, we have PAMOS at Brizzel (near enough the same as the all singing, tea making SAMOS) and we are prompted by the machine to check it then we send it manually (as opposed to the computer just putting it out at the right time). I hate it as I was trained on the system elsewhere to update the met as and when it needed to be updated rather than just at 50 and 20 when it was sent out. Our ATSAs have recently completed the two day (or was it one day?) partial course to bring them into line with the rest of NATS, but all our ATCOs have full Met Obs ratings anyway, so if, god forbid, the system goes tits up, we can do the obs the old fashioned way if we have to. Anyway, because we are used to doing it ourselves, it may well continue like that as long as we aren't too busy, then we can fall back on the ATSAs.

[SilentHandover]

SAMOS can, and certainly is when I'm on duty, used to update the weather between standard Met obs. It also transmits Auto special reports when certain criteria are met e.g. new QNH.

[chiglet]

At Manch, we are "offered" a Full Auto setting, which isn't used, but ANY change in Cloud or Viz [either real or imagined] flashes an alert every minuite, can be a pain at 3am CAVOK, and the kit throws a wobbler.
watp,iktch

[atce]

Yes I use samos, yes it does give garbage information 90% of the time.

youngskywalker,
as someone who has installed and maintained SAMOS equipment I am very surprised and alarmed by the above statement as I believe NATS would not buy and use an equipment that displays garbage for 90% of the time; on what do you base this figure and can you support it? :confused:

[chiglet]

ysw,
When the brown stuff hits the whirly thing just make sure that you are on your "Resposiblity Free Break" :ugh: :ugh:
Do your job, and look out of the chuffin' window and assess the wx :} well that's what I do
watp,iktch

[Airways B]

On PAMOS, and I think It's the same with SAMOS, verifiable met conditions such as MET Vis, Cloudbase and weather are suffixed with the word "unverified" on the ATIS when the system is set to auto meaning that such data is to be used with caution.

[23c]

Thick fog at Brum last night, what was SAMAS giving? - SNOW!:rolleyes:

[datafox]

Thick fog at Brum last night, what was SAMAS giving? - SNOW!:rolleyes:

It certainly does not look good that the 3rd busiest airport in the world is reporting light snow at night when it is just foggy.

EGLL 230250Z 00000KT 0400 R27R/1100 R27L/1000 FZFG OVC001 M00/M00 Q1042 BECMG 0800
EGLL 230220Z AUTO 00000KT 0350NDV R27R/1100 R27L/1000 FG VV/// M00/M00 Q1042
EGLL 230150Z AUTO 00000KT 0250NDV R27R/0700 R27L/0600 -SHSN VV/// M00/M00 Q1042
EGLL 230120Z 00000KT 0500 R27R/0750 R27L/1000 FZFG OVC001 M00/M00 Q1043 BECMG 0800

[atsatoo]

youngskywalker,
as someone who has installed and maintained SAMOS equipment I am very surprised and alarmed by the above statement as I believe NATS would not buy and use an equipment that displays garbage for 90% of the time; on what do you base this figure and can you support it? :confused:

ATCE, Its been our experience at Aberdeen that the Samos equipment is indeed '****e'. That is the reason we are there apparently, to correct it when it feeds us rubbish, which it does more often than not.

Why did NATS buy it? Its obvious isn't it? It saves a fortune in qualified Weather men!! Plus it gets the pound of flesh out of the ATSA's in Aberdeen, while keeping ATSA's employed as Met Men down south I believe.

It is a very limited system, measuring vis between two fixed points a couple of meters apart, and cloud straight up only. How can that be anything better than rubbish? Its regularly affected by, condensation, frost, fod, and other weirdness and gives utter ****e readings as a result.

Our 'unbreakable, ultra reliable' Samos has also broken down on at least 8 occasions that I know off since installation in April. Its tendancy for Specials is THE most annoying thing in the world, usually wrongly, and continues to flash, even when cancelled repeatedly until the next ATIS is due.

Most worrying is the fact that 'Winter' hasn't arrived yet !

Even though we have no traffic at night at the moment, we are still required to do live metars every hour for TAF requirments, its said. The question is, during sickness when Samos is on Auto all night, and during breakdowns, none of the heli companies or airlines seem affected by the lack of a TAF and go flying anyway??!!

Can anyone explain what the actual requirement is for a TAF/Forecast before flying?

too.

[throw a dyce]

If there is snow on the cloud monitors,will that not affect their measurements.It can muck up the IRVR.It will probably think it's sky obscured in fog.:D
Wasn't there some backhanders dished out to the power that be for installing Samos.Don't think the Atsas saw much of it.:hmm:

[chiglet]

t a d,
If there is snow on the cloud monitors,will that not affect their measurements.It can muck up the IRVR.It will probably think it's sky obscured in fog.
The "Cloud Monitor" aka Cloud BASE Recorder does NOT affect the IRVR.
IF there is ANY loss of visibuility due to "Precipitation" eg, rain, snow etc Then that "may" affect the IRVR.
SAMOS "Reports" [what IT "sees"]
Viz between two "fixed" points [fairly close together]Cloud A vertical "static" beam. [If it sees "Nowt", it reports CAVOK]
Precipitation.....NOW there is the "bugbear".....
At Manch, the "sensors" are 2km from the "observer" [The ATSA]. Said ATSA has to accept or decline wx info, when "presented" for a METAR.
SAMOS "reports" 170/04 3000BR NRC 04/03 1004
"MY" obs 170/04 CAVOK 04/03 1004

As atsoo said..It's NOT very good
watp,iktch

[throw a dyce]

t a d,
The "Cloud Monitor" aka Cloud BASE Recorder does NOT affect the IRVR.
IF there is ANY loss of visibuility due to "Precipitation" eg, rain, snow etc Then that "may" affect the IRVR.
SAMOS "Reports" [what IT "sees"]
Viz between two "fixed" points [fairly close together]Cloud A vertical "static" beam. [If it sees "Nowt", it reports CAVOK]
Precipitation.....NOW there is the "bugbear".....
At Manch, the "sensors" are 2km from the "observer" [The ATSA]. Said ATSA has to accept or decline wx info, when "presented" for a METAR.
SAMOS "reports" 170/04 3000BR NRC 04/03 1004
"MY" obs 170/04 CAVOK 04/03 1004
As atsoo said..It's NOT very good
watp,iktch
Well blowing snow does affect the IRVR system with false reading,so if the Cloud Base Recorder had a covering on it would it do the same? i.e if it can't see anything it thinks it's fog.
I never said the CBR and IRVR system were linked.I know that Manch doesn't see a lot of snow,but unfortunately we do.(and keep operating:ok: )

[atsatoo]

If there is snow on the cloud monitors,will that not affect their measurements.It can muck up the IRVR.It will probably think it's sky obscured in fog.:D
Wasn't there some backhanders dished out to the power that be for installing Samos.Don't think the Atsas saw much of it.:hmm:

I know nothing about backhanders.
Bonuses however ........!! :ok:

General feeling was/is that the ATSA's are paid too much anyway so no, we never saw a penny. Not for taking on Samos, not for changing our rostered shift pattern, not for doing night shifts, the list goes on. Over recent years the ATSA's role here has changed drastically, the flight clearance position was 'merged' with TWR, APP and OFFSHORE and staff O.R. cut accordingly. We have accepted a raft of 'changes' for no extra incentives at all, bar those agreed nationaly.

PCS were no real help (to us, management loved em!), correct me if I'm wrong, but they said, "yes its rubbish, but its coming, it'll save you're job, and you've all been on night pay for years anyway so suck it up and do it".
Yes, that sounds about right!

They were not prepared to accept (and neither is anyone else in NATS from what i can gather), that Aberdeen is a busy unit, with more movements than people imagine, growing all the time, with the added complication of 3 helicopter companies that fly their asses off every day, and change 75% of their details 90% of the time, honestly, you've got to see it to believe it.

Of course we also give ATSA support to Sumburgh and Anglia radar, as well as Aberdeen offshore. The ATSA is busy here, often too busy with the addition of Samos, but hey ho..the Union knows best..:ugh:

So no, no bonuses for us, but we are busy, tired and hacked off, oh, and we are all now holders of a 'restricted met observers certificate', for what its worth!!!

Any takers on why we need to do hourly metars at night when there's no traffic,......Why airlines/heli's can fly when the Samos has been on Auto all night and no live weather for a TAF has been provided????

too

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

To answer atsatoo's question about what forecasts are required before flying, until the last ammendment of my company's rule book we could depart for an airfield even if no forecast was available as long as a forecast from a nearby airfield was available. (I think the rule went on to say something about there having to be a good chance that the weather conditions would be the same at both locations).

I can't find that rule in the current incarnation of the rules, but there is now a rule stating that we MUST have a forecast of the anticipated landing conditions at the destination.

I seem to remeber doing many early trips for one Scottish airport and having to use the forecast for somewhere nearby. It would appear that this technique is no longer available to us.

G W-H

[Dizzee Rascal]

I'm not a NATS employee so am I allowed to post on this thread?:ooh:

I will anyway!:)


I can't find that rule in the current incarnation of the rules, but there is now a rule stating that we MUST have a forecast of the anticipated landing conditions at the destination.


I've just found this in the ANO


Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft
52The commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall take all reasonable steps to satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off:
(a) that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available as to the route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any alternative course of action which can be adopted in case the flight cannot be completed as planned;