Long haul or what!!

[capt ronweb]

Today while making my way back up North from EHAM @ FL340 at about 10;00 we were talking to Scottish and he gave me the usual info about an aircraft crossing from left to right 1000ft above, grand, we both looked and it was a lovely sight, we even said "morning" and the guy responded likewise, it was not a busy frequency.As he passed over us the Scottish controller asked him (the singapore airbus) what was his flight time today, wait for it, yes I was gobsmacked when the guy said 17hours and 56 minutes. We landed 30 mins later and I was home in 20 minutes, I am 3/4's way through the "honey do" list already. Maybe I have got this wrong, long haul people correct me here but if it had taken Mr Singapore say 6 and 1/2 hours to get from JFK (?) to where we saw him(60nm East of NEW), this is like ATPL planning all over again, that means nearly 11 and 1/2 hours to go from when we saw him!!!
Tough work or not? I wonder if that type of flying is enjoyable?
Happy Landings everybody.
Capt Ronweb.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There was a high level jet this morning over the Northern UK/N Atlantic that was 170kts on my chart... Perhaps this tweaked ATCs interest. For me it was 1hr2mins to Amsterdam, 1hr31mins back. Multiply that by perhaps a 13hr normal sector...

Cheers

WWW

[Rainboe]

18 flying hours one duty........= 4 or 5 days work like that......a month......look and weep! Travel almost halfway around the world, in one go? It either floats your boat or not.

[scroggs]

The JFK-SIN flight is, I believe, currently the longest scheduled non-stop service, flown by A340-500 aircraft. The winds must have been unusually strong for the flight to be as far south as UK - I would have thought that the GC route would be considerably further north.

17:56 is a mere bagatelle; my own longest is 28:04!

Scroggs

[Loki]

No, I worked that flight loads of times....as far South as Clacton in fact. I used to like pointing it out to other a/c that it went past.

[Avman]

Yep, it's a regular through the Maastricht airspace. To be honest, I wouldn't fancy it - not even in First Class. I get bored after a couple of hours!

[Big Tudor]

Scroggs is right, Great Circle would put it right over the North Pole at about 9,500 miles. Although coming south over the UK only adds about another 5-800 miles to the route. More advantageous winds must make it a preferable route. Although at 9,500 nms a couple of hundred extra here or there are almost academic!

[Airbubba]

To be honest, I wouldn't fancy it - not even in First Class.

If it's SQ I think I could enjoy the floor show for a couple of days before I'd get bored.:)

[JackOffallTrades]

The JFK-SIN flight is, I believe, currently the longest scheduled non-stop service, flown by A340-500 aircraft. The winds must have been unusually strong for the flight to be as far south as UK - I would have thought that the GC route would be considerably further north.
17:56 is a mere bagatelle; my own longest is 28:04!
Scroggs


28:04!!?

What sort of flight was that Scroggs? What were you flying?

[dontpickit]

Aircraft Airbus A340-500 (quad-jet) (H/A345/Q (http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/A345))Origin Newark/New York Liberty Int'l (KEWR (http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KEWR))Destination Singapore Changi (WSSS (http://flightaware.com/live/airport/WSSS)) Route MERIT HFD PUT TOPPS N111B DOTTY NATT
ODLUM UN551 NIBOG UN552 MAC UN562 SAB
UL983 MADAD UL983 VES UL975 ELVIX UL621
DIBED UL981 SOBLO B143 KARAT B143 IDLER
UM747 LUSAL UB111 SAGIL UA912 RODAR N644
LEMODDate Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006Duration 16 hours 32 minutesProgressn/a left





Status Proposed/AssignedActual/EstimatedDeparture11:00PM EST11:31PM ESTArrival09:56PM GMT09:03PM GMT

[IE_flyer]

I flew this recently (EWR-SIN-EWR) and yes, it's VERY long. The aircraft configuration is impressive, with so much free space. There are only 181 seats on the whole aircraft. No first class, just business and a premium economy cabin.

The seat plan can be seen here: http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Singapore_Air/Singapore_Air_Airbus_A345.php

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Cone on you drama queens - you are asleep most of that time!

[RoyHudd]

Methinks Scroggsy was on some very special crew food, allowing him to hallucinate for over 28 hours!!!!!!!!! Or maybe teaming up with his boss and Steve for a little trip round the world.

Come on then, oh Moderator extraordinaire...what flight was that? Surely not commercial?

Got an HRG return tomorrow, quite enough for me and the other bloke, I can tell you.:cool:

[JustAnothrWindScreen]

It either floats your boat or not.

It sinks mine. Actually seems like cruel and unusual punishment. But as they say.... everyone is different.

[fox niner]

Hmmmmmm......

And I thought I was a cool dude with 14 hour flights in my 777. Apparently, this is not the case.

Bummer.

[flash8]

Methinks Scroggsy was on some very special crew food, allowing him to hallucinate for over 28 hours!!!!!!!!! Or maybe teaming up with his boss and Steve for a little trip round the world.
Come on then, oh Moderator extraordinaire...what flight was that? Surely not commercial?
Got an HRG return tomorrow, quite enough for me and the other bloke, I can tell you.:cool:
Obviously not commercial. I'd hazard a guess of an (RAF) heavy (Tristar/Herc?) with in-flight refueling? (If that can be done?)

[galaxy flyer]

If this a guessing game on Scoggs:

Me thinks Herc--Ascension-southbound to a certain combat zone AND return to the Rock!!! 1982. Am I right??

GF

[Huck]

I fly alot of MD-11 long haul, i.e. 13 hours or so. It's painful but more days off, the old trade-off. 6 hours or so in the bunk every flight - I carry a laptop and a few "Sopranos" disks.....

When I get tired of it I bid domestic until that gets old, then go back.

[arem]

I think the Catalina crews of WW2 were often in the air for 36hrs or so!

[mini]

18 hrs is a long time as a pax. I could probably just about stick it in the deadheading row on cargo (walk about, smoke etc) but certainly not on a regular. Even in 1st, 12 hrs is my limit - assuming I can sleep 8 of them.:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

A Cat will fly between 20 and 24 hours on the normal fuel tanks, depending on power settings.

Longest flight I ever did was 19:10 in the Arctic in 1968....lots of time for sexual thoughts just to pass the time.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/aaf4e977.jpg

It's just much fun to fly through a bridge as under one.


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/NR3R3546.jpg

One more:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/Tabestimountains.jpg





Chuck E.

[Fat Boy Sim]

Once met a guy who was in the air for over 56 hours, only landed cause the dunnies were full.

[Fly3]

The ULR rest rules which SIA use on these flights give the crew considerably better rest than is achieved on normal long haul sectors by all accounts. I addition, as someone pointed out, they have lots of time off since they get to the flight time limitation quite quickly and they also receive extra pay for flying over 16 hour sectors. I guess it's horses for course but the guys who are doing it seemed to be quite happy.
As regards SLF getting bored on such long flights, anyone who has experienced SIA's IFE will be able to dismiss that idea: it's awesome with over 400 choices and individual video on demand and laptop power points in every seat. Now my last trip on BA longhaul was boring. How old is that IFE system?

[UP and Down Operator]

Me think those 400 choices must be available on the flightdeck as well. Maybe those modern eastern people can swap the PFD display with some good oldfashion western movies when flying over the states, and some fancy porn when passing Europe :E

[scroggs]

If this a guessing game on Scoggs:
Me thinks Herc--Ascension-southbound to a certain combat zone AND return to the Rock!!! 1982. Am I right??
GF

Yes!

Scroggs

[Smudger]

Yeah Scroggs, we know who you are you scruffy git!! I guess Ascension must have looked pretty good out the window after so long in the loominum tube! I was on another C130 squadron at the time but I was there with you! Happy days huh!! Not.....

[highflyin]

Yeh, tell me about it. I'm 6ft 5 and that's not fun in any kind of seat, bus, first, whatever

It's bad enough on 1-2 hour flight, impagine 18hrs.

If you think about it, if the airline put animals (a dog or cat) in the seat, made them check-in, line-up on the airbridge etc, etc they'd be busted for crulety to animals. But hey ! it's only pax so treat em how you like !!!!

[Denti]

Well, the total flight duration records are probably still held by airships as they moved very slow, however they had superior crew rest facilities and enough crew on them in the first place ;)
Searching through the FAI database i found some pretty impressive records, over 55 hours in a single seat glider plane (http://records.fai.org/gliding/history.asp?id1=D1&id2=1&id3=401) for example or over 57 hours in a double seat glider plane (http://records.fai.org/gliding/history.asp?id1=D2&id2=1&id3=401). If i remember correctly the FAI ceased to accept duration flight record applications in the 50ies as they considered them as too dangerous.

[helldog]

Once did a 12 hour leg.......in a Shorts 360. Yes we did have ferry tanks.

[EGAC]

This was the world record holder for unrefuelled piston-engined endurance for over 40 YEARS until Burt Rutan's Voyager circumnavigated the globe:

"In late September 1946 a new milestone in aviation history was set, an 11,236-mile non-stop, non-refueled flight from Perth, Australia to Columbus, Ohio. The plane, a US Navy Neptune patrol aircraft, manufactured by Lockheed and nicknamed "Truculent Turtle," was specially fitted with extra gasoline tanks to test its capacity for long-distance flight.

The crew of four made the trip in 55 hours and 17 minutes, at an average speed of 204 mph. Their only passenger was a young kangaroo named Joey, a gift from the Australian people to the National Zoo in Washington."

http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/awacs/neptune/p2_1.htm#tructurt

[Globaliser]

Travel almost halfway around the world, in one go? It either floats your boat or not.Trust me, if I could get from LHR to SYD in one hop, I'd be on it, even in economy.

[Avman]

Posted by Globaliser:
Trust me, if I could get from LHR to SYD in one hop, I'd be on it, even in economy.

Trust me, I wouldn't, not even in First! :)

But I admit that I'm most probably in the minority.

[WHBM]

I have here the airship timetable for Germany - South America in 1939.

Depart Frankfurt Wednesday evening, arrive Recife, Brasil Saturday evening. On to Rio (possibly the same crew) to arrive Rio Sunday evening.

And if you thought that was long enough, the return took an EXTRA day.

It's 4153 nm Recife to Frankfurt so for the 4 days of the eastbound trip they averaged 43 knots.

[Loki]

WHBM

I believe there was one occasion when, due to civil unrest at the destination, the captain pointed his Zeppelin into wind while some way off the South American coast, reduced speed, and sat there for a couple of days until the commotion was over.

[AutoAbort]

My last trip DXB to JFK 15h 15 min. A345. About 6.30h in the bunk, movie and some rest then back in the seat for an approach to 31R on a clear cool NY winterday :). A short 11h 50 min return leg back to Du..isneyland. 2JFK's and a far eastern trip would be a decent month. I wish they didn't throw in that night Hyderabad, Cochin and SIM support to top it off:=

[WHBM]

I believe there was one occasion when, due to civil unrest at the destination, the captain pointed his Zeppelin into wind while some way off the South American coast, reduced speed, and sat there for a couple of days until the commotion was over.
I shall never complain about the Bovingdon hold again :)

[farsouth]

Talking of long endurance flights, Guinness say that the longest ever (excluding space flight) was airborne for just under 65 days, from Dec 58 until Feb 59. It was a Cessna 172 with 2 on board, with long range tanks that allowed it to fly for about 24 hours between refuelling, which was done by flying at 20 ft above a fuel tanker and picking up a hose. Only saw a brief entry about it on the internet, so I don’t know how they managed for food etc, presumably that was also picked up in flight from a chase vehicle.

[WHBM]

Talking of long endurance flights, Guinness say that the longest ever (excluding space flight) was airborne for just under 65 days, from Dec 58 until Feb 59. It was a Cessna 172 with 2 on board, with long range tanks that allowed it to fly for about 24 hours between refuelling, which was done by flying at 20 ft above a fuel tanker and picking up a hose. Only saw a brief entry about it on the internet, so I don’t know how they managed for food etc, presumably that was also picked up in flight from a chase vehicle.
The C172 in question now hangs in the terminal at Las Vegas International airport:

"Another exhibit hangs directly over the baggage claim area: A plane that, in 1959, was used in setting a nonstop flying record -- 64 days, 22 hours, 19 minutes, 5 seconds -- that still stands.

Refueling was done on the fly, from a fuel truck that followed the plane on the ground. The pilots lifted baskets of food into the plane by rope. And, the answer to the inevitable question -- a small portable toilet seat -- is displayed in a nearby glass case."

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2000/Oct-01-Sun-2000/photos/timm.jpg

1. Assuming that the C172 was travelling at 65 kts during fuel pickup, how far would it have to go at synchronised speed with the tanker to refuel ? I would expect many miles.

2. I can't quite see how a C172 with 2pob would have enough capability to lift 24 hours endurance of fuel.

3. If you were going for an endurance record you would surely go for a retractable and a constant speed prop.

4. What did they do for oil (the C172 of that vintage being a typical GA oil guzzler) ?

5. You would have to be VERY good friends with your fellow pilot ! And indeed with that tanker driver 20 feet below.

[Will Hung]

Now that's proper hour building !

[GlueBall]

Thai Airways A345 BKK-JFK over the pole 17:17 :eek:

[eleri5]

:confused:
Have there ever been nonstop flights from the UK to New Zealand?
A Kiwi colleague of my Dad's says he remembers doing the journey on a 747 in the 1970s but surely it would have needed at least one stop.

[Rainboe]

No chance in a Classic 747. A 747-400 can perhaps do it on a positioning flight with no passengers and maybe extra fuel tanking in the hold! A B777 or A340-500....in fact I don't think any can!

[Self Loading Freight]

This one could (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=99) because it's got in-flight refuelling. I'm not sure you get air miles, though, but the IFE is a doozie.

Which reminds me of a question I've wanted to ask for a while - assuming no problems with crew hours, food (or dunnies) and access to in-flight refuelling, how long could a 747 stay aloft before it had to land? Do any components have a maximum continuous operations limit? (this may end up in a bit of fiction I'm writing)

R

[Dan Winterland]

My longest flight in a 747-400 was 13.50, Hong Kong to Heathrow. We had a bit more space for fuel, but not much.

I'm finished with that sort of flying, it's horrid!

[Cpt_Pugwash]

SLF,
Not sure about component op time limits, but I have always understood that engine lubricating oil reserves were the limiting factor, as these can't be topped up in flight. Happy to be corrected though .....

Cheers,
PW

[forget]

On 17 August 1989 the first Qantas 747-400, VH-OJA 'City of Canberra', touched down at Sydney Airport after a non-stop flight from London to Sydney. The 18,001km flight, under the command of Captain David Massy-Greene, took 20 hours, nine minutes and five seconds and established a new world distance record for a commercial aircraft. When Qantas had helped establish the Kangaroo Route in 1935 it had taken five different aircraft types, three airlines, 42 refuelling calls, two railways and up to 14 days to bridge the same gap.

http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/history/details16

Full story at

http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-76314.html

[WHBM]

:confused:
Have there ever been nonstop flights from the UK to New Zealand?
A Kiwi colleague of my Dad's says he remembers doing the journey on a 747 in the 1970s but surely it would have needed at least one stop.
Never a commercial operation. Colleague probably thinking of the Air New Zealand operation stopping at Los Angeles. In the 1970s it was a DC-10.

Airbus did a test flight nonstop Toulouse - Auckland - Toulouse with an A340-300 in the A340s early days. IIRC it routed outbound over Asia and returned over North America.

[Rainboe]

On 17 August 1989 the first Qantas 747-400, VH-OJA 'City of Canberra', touched down at Sydney Airport after a non-stop flight from London to Sydney. The 18,001km flight, under the command of Captain David Massy-Greene, took 20 hours, nine minutes and five seconds
To be fair, an excellent and well planned effort. But if I recall, it had special cooled fuel and was topped up with minimal fuel used to taxi, virtually no load and stripped out of unnecessary weight (even low water supplies for the very few special passengers). Not really a representative operation, but a good illustration of capability.

[forget]

From http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive...p/t-76314.html


Fuel for the flight became the critical factor. Fuel weight is limited by tank volume, but if we could somehow make the fuel more dense then we could carry more weight of fuel and it is mass flow that affects the engines. We investigated the possibility of chilling fuel, as this would increase the density slightly. But how to chill 60000 USG and would the effect of cooling be enough? Where could we get some dense fuel? So the search began. Someone suggested we use JP10, an increadibly dense synthetic fuel used by military for some missile applications. That was no good, Boeing advised, the wing structure is not designed to carry that kind of weight and besides, the winglets of this aircraft are not fitted with outrigger wheels. The search went on.

A slight increase in fuel quantity could be achieved by overfilling the fuel tanks. Normally the fuel tanks are never quite filled, to leave some airspace for expansion and prevent fuel spillage if it warmed after fuelling. By overriding the volumetric ****-off of the fuelling system, we could overfill the tanks by about 500 USG. We knew at least on airline used this procedure on a regular basis, provided fuelling was completed just prior to departure.

We kept paring weight out of the aircraft. Alll normal galley equipmet not required on the flight would be shipped to Sydney via Los Angeles. Safety equipment, except the amount required for the actual passengers on board would also be shipped. The same would apply to any cargo restraint equipment. The holds would be empty. The operating weight of the aircraft came down and the range capability edged up.

We started to run actual plans through our flight planning computer. We were tantalizingly close. The fuel for the flight was critical. The search went on......

Approaches were made, quietly, to various oil companies in Europe to see if they could produce the fuel we needed. One after another they said no. Even if they had the deed stock they would need to crack such an exotic brew, the 60000 USG we wanted was either too small or too large an order, and the price would be horrendous.

The fuel was all we need now to make this flight theoretically possible, but time was running out. The aircraft delivery date had now been fixed for the 9th of August. We would soon have to announce our intention and to seek the cooperation of ATC over Europe to expedite the flight and ensure we would be able to get our required route and altitude. Lower than normal altitudes would cause excessive fuel consumption and that could terminate out attempt in the very early stages of the flight. The achieved altitudes in the first two or three hours of the flight would be critical.

Because the flight was one off, we also had to obtain everflight clearances from all the countries over which we would fly, and that can take around 30 days. We needed that fuel. ***** *******, our fuel director felt his telephone bill would keep OTC going for many years.

Behind all this was some doubt about how the aircraft would actually perform. We would not know until we flew it across to London and actually measured its performance. One percent in fuel mileage could make the difference, and that kind of variation from aircraft to aircraft was not unusual.

Finally Shell said they could make the fuel. At last! We could now announce the flight and start real preparations. Shell then said they would move to make the fuel in West Germany because that was where the feed stock was. How would we transport the fuel to London? Tankers we said. Not that easy they said, we dont have them to spare. Another hurdle. Then we found some tankers, not the usual behemoths, small ones, but tankers nonetheless. Nine would be required.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

On the subject of commercial long-haul flights, hasn't it all been done before decades ago, eg. TWA L-1649 Starliners from LHR to the US West coast - sometimes well over 20 hours ?

[Taildragger67]

SLF,
Not sure about component op time limits, but I have always understood that engine lubricating oil reserves were the limiting factor, as these can't be topped up in flight. Happy to be corrected though .....

Cheers,
PW

IIRC I read somewhere that AF-1 and the E4s have the ability to top-up engine oil in flight from on-board reservoirs. Anyone care/able to shed light?

[WHBM]

On the subject of commercial long-haul flights, hasn't it all been done before decades ago, eg. TWA L-1649 Starliners from LHR to the US West coast - sometimes well over 20 hours ?
I know they were advertised as without a stop, but didn't they make a tech stop at Winnipeg ?

[Globaliser]

My longest flight in a 747-400 was 13.50, Hong Kong to Heathrow.Fairly standard stuff, though, on a bad winter's night.

The one in my book that still raises my eyebrows was the HKG-LHR which took 16:03. But it won't surprise anyone to know that that was in an A340. It was the sort of night when 13 was being used (this was Kai Tak days) even though it was the middle of the night. And things got no better as we went along.

[NWT]

Think the limiting factor on the long flights apart from crew hours etc, is really the amount of fuel that can be carried. Engine oil etc no problem in the modern jets. The A340-600/RRtrent rarely has more than one quart of oil added after the flights like LAX-London or HKG london.

[daelight]

I've seen (well in a VHF sense) the SQ flight in question 17 times over the last 3 months on the ACARS here in SW Ireland. I thought there must have been some mistake when the display read

"C1,.9V-SGC,06DEC28,08.55.57,KEWR,WSSS,SIA021...."

Amazing endurance indeed. It would be crossing somewhere along the western seaboard of Ireland as I get that full coverage, being perched here close to the last parish before NY as they say!

[imh145]

At this time of year the flights back from LA to HKG are regularly between 14-15 hrs on the 744. Having come from a regional in the uk it is definately not real flying with half the time spent in a bunk! The time off is great with 18 days off per month. For me it is a life style not a job.

[old,not bold]

[quote=EGAC;3024433] The plane, a US Navy Neptune patrol aircraft, manufactured by Lockheed and nicknamed "Truculent Turtle," was specially fitted with extra gasoline tanks to test its capacity for long-distance flight.

Just a thought......presumably the fuel was calculated to last for as long as the test was scheduled to continue, which I guess was how long it did continue.

So what was supposed to happen if it turned out that some other essential component had no capacity for long-distance flight, and failed before the end of the programmed test duration? What did they expect might not have a capacity for long-distance flight, that needed to be tested to find out?

[Rainboe]

Long term cold soaking of wings, fuel system, flying controls, undercarriage mechanism, engine controls.......you name it, just about everything! How do you know there will be no problem unless you demonstrate it?

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

SIA21 and UAE202 regularly pass over Manchester on route from New York
to Singapore and Dubai non stop which tickles me as the MAN-SIN flight quite often departs at the same time on it`s 12-13 hours flight and SIA21 has already done 6+ hours

G-I-B