RYR taking shortcuts

[Articsky]

Hiya!
Work at an approach sector and are quite often surprised by ryr doing it's own thing. i.e cleared to a fix but goes direct 10nm final instead etc etc. It's now come as far as we're reporting every single occasion they do this and it gets sent to the chief pilot. anyhow, anyone else having the same sort of trouble or is it just me they're bothering? ;)

[1985]

I work lots of Ryanair's and have found them on the whole to be very well behaved. They can get a little bolshy with requests but tend to do what they're told when you say no.

[zkdli]

Could be something simple like they have the wrong place for the fix in their FMS:) or are you saying something that sounds like route to the centre fix fix for RWY?

[Articsky]

direct tor is no-where near either center fix 36 or left base 18 which they admit to be tracking after being bullied for a while

[LN-ATC]

This sounds more like KLM to me. :)

[RAC/OPS]

I always find RYR very well behaved, and never complain when they get dicked around, unlike some of their main competitor's pilots! Bit fast at times which can be exciting.

[126,7]

Never had a problem with RYR either, and we sometimes have 5 or 6 on frequency at a time.

[6000PIC]

... in the same context , only different ... why don`t ATC offer " direct - to ..." more often than they do at present. I`m always asking , and you may find it annoying , but after all , that`s why we fly , - the quickest we can get where we are going , the better for all , - I`m out of your hair earlier and I`m in the pub sooner and the punters or the packages get where they intend to go , hopefully near to schedule. Seriously , how many times have I sat there at FL 360 wondering if ATC has a reason for us going all around the looong way ( this includes all of Europe and a lot of Asia too ). And by the way , does the UK really think the Germans are still going to invade from the East , they sure make it inconvenient with all the military airspace on the Eastern side of the British Isles. You open that airspace up to civilian traffic more , then you`d see some fuel savings. Rant on !

[AdanaKebab]

Us miltary fly in that airspace just to p*ss you off! ..... Or is it to train for Operations such as those in Afghanistan where the boys are regularly risking their butts to make your life safer at home and in the air!:ugh:

[6000PIC]

I find it difficult to blame the USAF for that which is truly a European ATC issue / NATS or whoever you want to point the finger at , it`s an economic waste for airlines to circumnavigate this airspace.

[AdanaKebab]

You may note that the second letter in Us was of lower case. This was not a typing error it was intended this way. Therefore, by Us i was referring to the RAF (The Royal 'Us'!), and did not infer any reference to our American cousins. However, they also use the airspace over the North Sea so you could include them as part of your problem! May i also add that the use of aviation for widescale military purpose preceeded it's widescale use for civilian travel - so join the back of the queue or we'll shoot you down too!:ok:

[SM4 Pirate]

... in the same context , only different ... why don`t ATC offer " direct - to ..." more often than they do at present. I`m always asking , and you may find it annoying , but after all , that`s why we fly , - the quickest we can get where we are going , the better for all , ...
SOP; generally controllers are actively discouraged from 'offering' track shortening; this isn't about maximising your flight time; but minimising conflict pairs. Most route structures are designed to keep separation from other (similar) routes, of course there are multiple crossing and opposite tracks... but you get the point.

The flex track / UPR and even standard non normal tracks are usually "best guessed" as the fastest way; we take you off by offering track shortening and cost you time; the most direct route is often not the quickest, of course there are many examples where it is.

I saved an aircraft 30NM once by cutting a dog-leg and cost them two minutes over the 250NMs from Point A to C instead of via B; courtesy of the jet stream winds etc.

As for military airspace; this is a world wide problem... But from what I see daily, I prefer the current situation of keeping civi's as far from military types doing military things in those types of airspace as we need.

[AdanaKebab]

Good job too with the Typhoon now doing hotsnot in supercruise styley at silly hgts pulling really silly G-forces. Up diddley up up, down diddley down down. Now that's an aeroplane.:D

[b17heavy]

Maybe if you stopped asking for direct everywhere you might get it. As for the airspace – go round it, big deal. Europe is not one country ( tip - it’s the bit below the UK on the map :ok: ) and hence can be some difficulties. Asia – that’s that place near China right :} ?
As for ze Germans, well who knows….

[Articsky]

... in the same context , only different ... why don`t ATC offer " direct - to ..." more often than they do at present. Rant on !
well, little makes me happier than an empty strip board, so i offer dct as often i can. the sooner i get rid of you the better, an empty stripboard is a happy stripboard :)

[RobertK]

As for ze Germans, well who knows….
Who, US, errr, us?

Neva! :}

Regards,

Robert

[songbird29]

On a limited basis, in low traffic, mostly at night, direct routes have been given by ATC all over Europe since it was technically possible to fly them with INS in the seventies.

With a few local exceptions, ATC software has not been adapted to accommodate more direct routes on a larger scale. Technically, there should be no serious problem to let aircraft fly from TMA-exit to TMA-entry. The ATC computers can calculate the significant points and eta's along any random route to a fix. Operationally it would require adaptation of ATC area control working habits including reliance on computer assisted conflict detection (by the planner controller, the executive controller should use but not rely).

The main stumbling block is political, see the uncompromising reaction of Adanakebab. It used to be the Russian threat (and in Eastern Europe I'm sure it was called the NATO threat leading to the same inflexibility), today it is the training for Afghanistan, there will always be some argument to cut off large chunks of airspace from civil use.

More flexible use of airspace brings some relief but that should only be the beginning of opening up more airspace when there is an economic and environmental demand for it.

Keep the pressure on, 6000PIC, you are absolutely right, it's an economic and environmental waste to circumnavigate unnecessarily.

[b17heavy]

Songbird29 – why so serious ? Brussels is the home of europeanness, bureaucracy, fat men in Mercedes and the chip – or should I say chipp ed pooomes de terrre a la mode.

You cant expect direct routes, the issue needs to mulled over for a few more years, moaned about by the French, applauded by the Dutch for non- infringement of human rights and after a couple of reports and a discussion with the UN we will arrive back where we started. Waiting for the impending sociologists report about how this creates inequalities in sandal manufacturing – or something. I mean next you’ll be wanting everybody to speak English in the air…:ok:

[michaelknight]

Well, clearing someone to the TOR VOR is not much use, I don't want to go to the VOR, so just give a clearance to the Center Fix for 36 or 18, there's not that much difference in TRK from far away ie 100NM+ that's usually when I get cleared there.

I accept your point, guys are putting in the CD18/FD36 becaure they are just too lazy to create a point 10NM prior to the VOR and then joining it up with the center fix. It's just sloppy.

MK

[Frunobulax]

Back to the topic: I found WZZ pilots more likely to take their own shortcuts than RYR. I'd say RYR is following the rules much more strictly than others.

Few weeks ago one of Polish airports had ILS in some sort of maintenance, with non-precision approach still available. RYR divertered all their flights that were scheduled to land there after sunset to alternates; other company(ies) didn't.