Iberia Mayday [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Gary Lager

19th Dec 2006, 16:59

Please dear Lord don't start the english/foreign language RT argument again, not so near near to Christmas...if one really feels strongly about the subject then instead lets do a search and resurrect one of the myriad bitchfests that have been had on that topic on here in the past!

Maybe the lack of english in this situation was less of a safety issue but instead more one of frustration to us english-speaking rubber neckers who want to know what was going on. Just a thought..

So, back to the thread...

I hope everyone was OK, does anyone actually have any more details to contribute?

B A Lert

20th Dec 2006, 00:05

Perhaps they only read/write Spanish. One thing to speak English, yet another to be confident enough to use writ English in a public forum.

calypso

21st Dec 2006, 08:59

Perhaps they don't read PPrune but "pilotosdeiberia.com" (is not a joke, it does exist) Try asking there. Even in english...

QCM

21st Dec 2006, 10:31

Aye but these are the internationally agreed rules. TCAS resolution may have been avoided if the others could understand what was going on.
So you mean that if you understand what's going on around you,for example an emergency descent,you take an evasive action to avoid triggering the TCAS:= :ugh: ...and then you will force your colleagues from above/below to avoid you promptly...never heard that one before...follow your TCAS and don't invent new rules this is basic safety..
Other posts very arrogant with Spanish pilots...be more humble guys,the day the sh}it will be on you maybe you'll call your mother...anyway Spanish is one of the ICAO international language as well as French and Russian,so they didn't break any rule by talking English on the radio...Don't apologize Iberia pilot:= ,they should for giving so much s]it to your colleagues.:*

chuks

21st Dec 2006, 10:48

required to preserve the secrecy of telecommunications." Well, that is what it says on the back of my German radio licence. I think that means that one is not, actually, supposed to discuss radio calls on an open forum such as this one.

Of course all the reptiles have unlicensed scanners so that if you so much as burp politely that will go all over the News of the Screws as a 'distress call' but why not leave other crews to sort themselves out without all this fuss and speculation?

The British radio licence has no such requirement displayed but I think it is a general rule that one has to preserve the confidentiality of what one hears, even if that seems a bit picky.

green granite

21st Dec 2006, 11:38

Of course all the reptiles have unlicensed scanners so that if you so much as burp politely that will go all over the News of the Screws as a 'distress call' but why not leave other crews to sort themselves out without all this fuss and speculation?

That is the most arrogant and generally insulting post I've seen on here for a while. It also shows a total ignorance of the radio licensing requirements, a license is not required for a scanner so your comment is meaningless :ugh::ugh:

POL.777

21st Dec 2006, 12:00

So whats the story about the Iberia mayday? Any insights?

Happy xmas

Gonzo

21st Dec 2006, 13:07

Green Granite, whilst a licence is not required in the UK to own a scanner, a licence is required in the UK to listen to anything other than Amateur and Citizens' Band transmissions, licensed broadcast radio, and weather and navigation broadcasts.

green granite

21st Dec 2006, 14:38

Technically Gonzo it's in fact "permission from the secretary of state" but amounts to the same thing. Also I believe the authorities will only act on a complaint from the person(s) "owning" the frequency concerned, ie Nats would have to make a complaint before any action was taken, whether that is just an administrative thing I'm not certain.

What really prompted my rant was calling people who listen to scanners "reptiles"

Lon More

21st Dec 2006, 15:18

Drifted a bit from the original post.
Mr. Geezer, for your info ATC Watcher has probably done more to urther aviation safety than 99% of the posters on PPRuNe; he is correct on this. How would you have "avoided" an RA?
FWIW Green Granite I believe the "reptile" remark was directed at members of the press.

chuks

21st Dec 2006, 17:49

'Reptiles' are generally taken to be 'gentlemen of the press,' I thought. I didn't mean to get down on people who like to use unlicensed scanners just to listen in on ATC chatter; I have no particular feelings about that at all, although it does seem like a waste of time and an unwarranted intrusion. Should I perhaps sit outside your kitchen window to listen in on your telephone calls, say? And then tell everyone what sort of odd comments were made, to boot?

If you think that comment was rude then you obviously haven't been exposed to my rudeness but I shall apologise for it anyway, seeing as it it the Holiday season and all. Happy now?

As to the others, the reptiles, I remember once when we had to declare an emergency after a bit of finger trouble, basically. We sorted ourselves out there and continued the operation safely. But by the time we got back to base the phone was ringing with invitations to unburden ourselves to some reptile who had obviously been listening in on the Tower frequency.

I believe that if you look into this at all you shall find that there is a legal requirement to preserve the privacy of ATC radio traffic.

blanza

21st Dec 2006, 17:50

hi guys, at the bigining of this thread i apollogie as an iberia pilot, for abusing of spanish on the radio, an d i keep on doing it,
anyway after a tcas resolution wath we are supoused to do, its act promtly, no mater wath other pilots say or the controller, remenber accident over switherland, so the languige in that situation its not that important,
spanish controller are instructed to talk to us in english every time our essential trafic its not spanish, this hapen a lot, close to the airport, joining runways, TO clearance, app. etc... and more. We olso are intructed to use english in situationds like rejected TO, engine failure and request vector to get back to the field,... i´m one of those that think that its better the use of just one language at least in dens air trafict areas like tma, but still legal the use of other language in france and spain as an icao official lenguage.
I complitly agree that in an stressing situation its easy to use your native languge,
other factor its tha flag airlines are comonly crewed with native pilots, so the use of native lenguage in the cockpit its normal, new low cost airline are very international so use of english its almost compusory, any way if you give me the exact day of this incident hapen i can make a few questions to satisfy your curiosity , i will also ask in pilotsdeiberia.com that of course i´m a member, and of course its not a joke, its a very usefull lisbot, for profesional and non pro subjets, best regards

Gonzo

21st Dec 2006, 22:18

Well done to blanza. Any increased understanding and knowledge of this sort of thing can only lead to improvements in safety.

I can only imagine how I'd perform if asked to cunduct my job in another language.

green granite

22nd Dec 2006, 07:09

Chuks my rant was probably over the top anyway and I apologise for over reacting.

The problem of using info gleaned from listening to radios doesn't just apply to ATC they also listen to the Police (or used to before it was encrypted) Fire and Ambulance frequencies so that they can get to the scene of an incident quickly.

Then again a lot of the airfields in the States and some in Europe stream their radios and even their radar plots onto the internet , JFK for example.

chuks

22nd Dec 2006, 07:42

As to the original post, no idea whatsoever and even if I knew I wouldn't tell!

There seems to be a growing number of people, probably inspired by the internet, who seem to find it perfectly normal to view any transmissions, including ATC ones, as some sort of entertainment, out there for their diversion. I'm not happy with that, not that it matters a great deal in the grand scheme of things. My discontent started with Beatles haircuts and has just gone on from that.

The press, ah! That great populist photographer of New York 'Weegee' (Alfred Selig) kept a police radio tuned in so that he could be one of the first on the scene to take pictures of auto accidents, gangland shootings and all the other things that made up life in New York City; that was his living as a free-lance photographer. Somehow I doubt that he had a licence for that radio but then he was a one-off. Now you can go to the local Radio Shack and buy stuff Weegee probably never dreamed of, since he had to work with a Speed Graphic and flash bulbs.

What we nowadays seem to think we have a right to know, since we are willing to pay good money to buy copies of the Sun and the News of the Screws, goes pretty deep into the private and the professional spheres. Lucky to be a nobody I don't worry about my privacy being invaded but professionally I would hope that whatever I have to say to ATC would remain between us insofar as possible. I certainly don't want some reptile listening in.

alosaurus

22nd Dec 2006, 23:02

BLANZA - 13 Dec 12:45.
To respond to some of what has been said ...
On one hand it is understandable that Spanish was spoken...the majority of people on the ground and in the air received maximum information efficiently.
- Not so good if Iberia a/c had the problem in non Spanish airspace.
- Not good either because TCAS is not the only way of avoiding a collision...(some ATC people have been jumping on soap boxes a little too quickly here).
In airspace where the only other aircraft are 10 miles plus away and you have positively identified the conflict a/c we are mandated to avoid collision using rules of the air...head on both a/c turn right. Problem was Iberia turned left (so I just maintained heading).
TCAS is normally great...but an emergency is situational and if you have an a/c descending at 7,000 fpm and you are approaching your ceiling you may not be able to climb at the rate TCAS demands. Airmanship demanded one of us turned as there was a lot of clear blue sky outside the SNR funnel.
Gary Larger - I was not rubber necking but this aircraft did two things I did not expect it to do in less than 30 seconds...as my aircraft and its contents were put in jeopardy I have more than a casual interest in what was going on.

toro01

23rd Dec 2006, 16:20

Dear all:

Interesting issue this. For a start the english level of quite a lot spanish pilots is just enough to survive I agree 100%

As a spanish pilot however I want to say the following:

1.- English sholud be spoken on the ATC not only in Spain but France Italy Greece, Rusia, and the rest of the world. If you have been flying more than 100 miles out of the UK airspace you know what I mean,so you should be surprised for the behaviour of this pilot. Have you ever landed in CDG? or ORY? or FCO?Don´t put all the blame on the spaniards only beacuse half of england flies to the spanish beaches

2.- Since this particular pilot was in Spain it makes sense to respond to an Spanish ATC talking in Spanish in a mayday it helps to reduce your workload in that situation. However I have not doubt that in the UK airspace the spanish pilot would have sorted out the problem perfectly.

3.- It is very difficult for an English speakker to have the right perspective about other languages, considering that Uk people are the ones with the lowest level of knowledge of other languages in all the EU.

4.- I have been flying in the States quite a lot and the American aeronautical English is far far far from being the standard ICAO.

5.- Merry Christmas chaps

blanza

23rd Dec 2006, 18:57

gracias toro for the help,
i´ll replay another day, today its time to be with our familys and dont want to look for acccident report, but when you have a trafic advisory, don´t think that the traffict you have in sight its the one that its giving you the advisory, can be another one you are not seeing, allready hapen, i think in LA, and leeds to an accident/incident. second, in the accident over switherlad, they probably were sill here, including the controller, if they have relay on the tcas,
anyway this was a disscusion of the use of different languages in the airspace, not of the use of the tcas, and i agree with the use of a common one for everybody, best one, english because its more extended. but i dont make the rules and regulation
marry cristmas and take care when you are in the air

MrBitsy

23rd Dec 2006, 20:14

Of course all the reptiles have unlicensed scanners so that if you so much as burp politely that will go all over the News of the Screws as a 'distress call'

I am 44 and have been listening to the airband since I was six. I also own the SBS 'virtual radar' and watch the traffic live alongside the scanner. I do this at home only and have never considered passing on anyting heard.

For me, it is an extremely interesting hobby that gives me nothing but pride for the pilots and controllers operating throughout the UK. Indeed, I also own an ATC simulator called 'London Control' that further enhances the hobby.

This led me to starting the UK PPL course just over a year ago.

You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

Ray.

alosaurus

24th Dec 2006, 09:10

Blanza - Fully up to speed with the benefits of TCAS.....and in busy airspace or IMC etc you should just follow what TCAS tells you.
Not every situation is the same however and as a commander you are paid to use judgement. Just like SOPs it makes sense to follow them most of the time but every once in a while you have to do something different.
You know SNR at FL 370 better than I....it is not London TMA...and as I indicated above...
We had already established (from TCAS) there was no other traffic within 10NMs
It was clear blue VMC (which allowed us to confirm the above). The facts are...
1 - Iberia was in an emergency descent and I suspect was not 100% focussed on what his TCAS was telling him.
2 - I was approaching my aircraft ceiling and did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted me to do.
3 - If neither of us had taken (heading) avoiding action there was a very high risk of collision.
4 - If one of us changed heading there was a very low risk (nil in the first instance) of hitting another a/c.
The reason TCAS does not give heading changes is because in its current form it is not accurate in the lateral plane. When technology allows... TCAS will give climb and/or heading changes...until that time we must not slavisly rely on TCAS in 100% of the situations you encounter.
PS....prepared to be corrected here but I seem to remeber that the Russian aircraft (in your link above) did not have TCAS fitted.

alexban

25th Dec 2006, 14:17

alosaurus: the Russian aircraft had TCAS but due to different ,old teching methodologies ,they did not followed it ( they were tought to follow the ATC no matter what)
Also,you should not change heading based on tcas info's ,as you said it's not precise in horizontal indication.
The maximum FL for you're plane it's not the max FL it can climb,for shorter period of time.So,to prevent a colission,I'd suggest following TCAS no matter what,even if you climb over Max FL ,for a few hundred feets.
Also,most tp's are certified at lower levels due to pax oxy masks number (ie. ATR with FL 250. But it can easily climb to 270 or above)
About the need for awareness I subscribe to it's importance,and use of english over radio is very important.
One should think,though, that it would be a lot easy for everyone to speak in it's own language,if possible,during high stress situations.After the initiall ,standard call in english,a sim well trained reflex.

alosaurus

25th Dec 2006, 20:19

Alex-would not change heading PURELY on TCAS info....but as I said TCAS helped our situational awareness and we were able to identify ...by combining TCAS and eyeball information that ...
A - There was only one aircraft anywhere near us.
B - That aircraft was heading straight for us and was loomimg large.
C - That the sky left and right of the Iberia was visually confirmed to be clear.
My point two above was not that we could not climb (as we all know there is some margin of climb performance at the aircraft's max ceiling) what I said was that my aircraft "did not have the climb performance to do what TCAS wanted us to do"
I have been involved in flight testing of development aircraft including ramping at max ceiling. Whilst not on my flight some of the guys did have a double engine failure and it took a long time to get one going again. See also a fatal accident last year in similar circumstances (neither engine would restart for those poor guys).
No one should advocate initialising a climb (measured in thousands of feet per minute) at max altitude when a gentle change of heading by 20 degrees would solve the problem.
We are not robots and exprerience and / or common sense will tell you that we do not rigidly follow TCAS in 100% of the situations. SOME emergencies are situational and require airmanship/ judgement taking ALL facts into account.

Mister Geezer

25th Dec 2006, 20:51

My post was highlighting the fact that ATC Watcher had clearly not understood the post made by underread east who made no mention that he would not react to a RA based on what he heard on the R/T - which is dangerous... however he did not say that!

Hats off to blanza for coming into the lions den as someone who uses his native lingo on the R/T. Whilst perfectly legal the main issue I have is that is seriously degrades my SA. I am sure we all try to build a mental picture of where other aircraft are and if the other crew are using a language that you do not understand then this becomes difficult.

If I hear a aircraft close to me and above me making a emergency descent on the R/T then in anticipation of a possible RA, in those few moments I will consider putting the fasten belts on and possibly making a brief PA which could well include instructions for the cabin crew to stow the carts asap. If someone is descending at me in a emergency then TCAS logic will want me to descend as well and I will need to shove the nose down to get the VSI pointing into the green band so thereby I will be replicating a emergency descent so that I will deconflict. Imagine this when pax are standing in the aisle or when the cabin crew are serving hot drinks! As a precaution I would like to secure the cabin as best as I can in case of a RA - even if pax just returned to their seat would be a start! If crews do not use English then I simply don't have the situational awareness that I would have if they did.

faheel

25th Dec 2006, 21:16

Talk about thread drift !!!
Alosaurus asks a perfectly reasonable question and you lot descend into a slanging match about the Spaniards and their aviation English ability or lack off it.
Bloody pathetic hijack of this thread and still no answer.
You lot that have nothing to contribute to the question should just plain and simple shut up and confine your contributions to just reading and NOT writing !!

Mister Geezer

25th Dec 2006, 21:27

I think if anyone had heard anything... they would have posted it by now and answered his question. Especially considering it occurred nearly 2 weeks ago!

Anyway I thought it was more of a discussion rather than anything else!! :}

TE RANGI

25th Dec 2006, 21:32

Faheel,
While I may agree with you about the subject hijack, our colleages have raised a valid point.
The widespread use of Spanish over the (now very busy) Spanish airspace is no small issue. Some of us feel it is bordering on the very dangerous. In fact it was even mentioned on one of the latest editions of Flywise.
Take MAD or BCN for instance; a ridiculously complex airspace, heavy traffic (MAD is now ahead of JFK in terms of pax and airplanes), questionable ATC, simultaneous use of two languages and poor English, that sure should raise some flags.
I just hope time proves me wrong.
Regards to all and season's greetings.

toro01

27th Dec 2006, 09:02

TE RANGI:

Companies like Spanair, Vueling and Clickair have now on the SOP's the use of english with the spanish ATC. I can not agree with you about the english ability of the controllers. Don't go over the top. If you are scared about the spanish ATC you have not been flying outside the "civilized" world mate!!!

It surprises me however that you focus on the Spanish Air space, because regarding my previous post have you ever been to CDG or ORY or FCO? you only hear italian or french. Or if you fly worldwide that it's everyday life. We are pilots and we should adapt to the circunstances, go and tell a turkmenistan controller for example to speak proper english. He should do his best(and he does for sure) and we should do our best to understand him to adapt to that particular situation and leave our arrogant attitude behind.

TE RANGI

27th Dec 2006, 14:36

Toro01,
Thanks for your reply and apologies if mine sounded arrogant to you.
Yes, I've flown to ORY, CDG, FCO, CIA etc. And i've flown otside the what you call "civilized" airspace (Turkmenistan included), and am fully aware of the dangers of the use of two different languages simultaneously and of poor ATC.
Re the quality of Spanish ATC, I think there's little doubt it would rank at the very bottom in Western Europe, but that would be a different thread altogether. I would be more than happy to debate that with you (privately or publicly) any time. Should we start another thread about it?
Season's greetings.

calypso

27th Dec 2006, 16:38

Now, now. The position of worst ATC in Western Europe is a highly contested one. How about Greece or Italy? on the other hand Portugal is pretty good so we have to rule out the warm weather...

Another thread perhaps. See you in Jetblast then

relax.jet

27th Dec 2006, 18:54

You mean you would not react to an RA based on what you hear on the R/T ?
Very, very dangerous my friend.
And which rules are you talking about ? According ICAO , In Spain the legal languages in R/T are both Spanish and English , so they are following " internationally agreed rules " as far as I know . Not nice perhaps , but legal.

Some day, we were on HDG to intercept LOC in Barcelona, awaiting clearance for it. BUT there was a lot of spanish communication. It looked like she was trying to call one particular aircraft all the time. AND she did. She was calling us (heading over the see (all safe, no terrain) waiting for vector), BUT we don`t speak Spanish (only English, German, Slovak, Czech, but not Spanish). whose mistake was it? It was all legal BUT....

And pls remember Paris-Orly, French language incident on grd. :ugh:

toro01

27th Dec 2006, 23:49

I don't want to argue with you guys about the use of spanish, I just want to try to open your minds a bit about how different(that not unsafe) is to fly out of the great london airspace. anyway happy new year chaps and thanks TE RANGI for your replay

ATC Watcher

28th Dec 2006, 16:22

Now that Chrismas and the peace time is over, let's recap from the begining.

Everyone seem to read what he wants and make their own rules based on rumors.
Post #7 :Aye but these are the internationally agreed rules. TCAS resolution may have been avoided if the others could understand what was going on.

The international agreed rules are the ICAO annexes.There is nothing else on international Aviation RT telecommunications. These are saying that the language to be spoken on radiotelephony is the language of the country overflown. When there is no agreement, English is to be used or provided.

Nothing to do with ICAO 7 languages, no it is the full official 220 .If tomorrow Catalonia province becomes independant and has Catalan as its official language, they can use it on the RT.
These are the rules we have to work with .
.
If you knew me , you would also know that I am for the use of English as a single language on International RT , but the internationally agreed rules say differently ans this is part of the problem. It has become heavily political and will not be resolved overnight , unfortunately.

As to the use of one's own language in emergency situations, I am not that sure this is an issue. It is more a Human factor problem than a political one.
Ask yoursef the question if a US or British citizen had an emergency above USA or UK and the International RT language was French or German, in which language he/she would communicate in emergency situations ?

Back To TCAS : For me what the gentlemen has said above and what I have understood , is that RAs could be avoided if one knows what is going around, if that RT had been in English instead of Spanish.
If that was not meant please educate me, English is not my mother tongue. If I am correct then my remark stands.

From the other ACAS remarks posted on this thread ,I am totally amazed to see today pilots and controllers, 4 years after Ueberlingen , still not understanding how TCAS works..
But that is another subject .

Back on the original thread : Dual language in ATC wether it is Spanish, French or Russian is not going to go away overnight.
It will come one day, but not in my lifetime.

Also please stop using the CDG accident as a example. Read the official accident report before posting. The reason why that poor chap was killed was not because the take off clearance of the MD80 was in French.
There is a recommendation on this report from the BEA that ops in CDG be in English only, true, and that was tried an unfortunately and sadly , the French AF pilots union killed this after a few hours.

Now I wish you all , in English, a nice and safe new year.

300-600

29th Dec 2006, 22:14

ATC Watcher - I can't see much wrong with the TCAS comments (apart from not understanding Alexbans compatibility statement).
If you are suggesting that TCAS should be obeyed in every situation (even quiet airspace with an extreme manoeuvre by one a/c whilst the other is close to coffin corner) then you need to read the posts again.
Airmanship comes from looking at the whole picture.100% reliance on automation with flawed logic and lateral capability issues (in the circumstances detailed above) is inappropriate.

Wipeout

29th Dec 2006, 22:37

Without wishing to drag the thread back to the original question...what was the outcome? - does anyone know what the mayday call was about?

ATC Watcher

1st Jan 2007, 16:08

If you are suggesting that TCAS should be obeyed in every situation (even quiet airspace with an extreme manoeuvre by one a/c whilst the other is close to coffin corner) then you need to read the posts again.
Airmanship comes from looking at the whole picture.100% reliance on automation with flawed logic and lateral capability issues (in the circumstances detailed above) is inappropriate.

Please do not use the 0.1% to discredit the 99,9%.

I do nor want to reopen the ACAS debate in this post, it has been covered so many times in the past here and in the Tech log ( but if you want you can open another thread or PM me to continue discussing this)

Just a remark and an advice : when designing highly automated systems such as the ACAS logic, manual interferences are generally not considered, and therefore not only do those cancel the desired effect but can cause in some cases, in itself an accident.
This is not only valid for ACAS but also for some other airborne components ( ATHR comes to mind, when looking at Toronto to take only a recent example )

After the recent incidents, accidents and collisions caused partially by the current ACAS logic and/or the visual /manual RA non-compliance, the advice given now by all ACAS experts in both side of the Atlantic is ALWAYS follow the RA and never , ever manoeuvre in the opposite sense.

Now, let's stop being too serious and Happy new year to all, and let,s hope that 2007 be safer as 2006 ! ( Although it sarted badly in Indonesia :( )