Question - Passengers during aeros?

[VH-XXX]

Sorry if this is a no brainer, however is there a limit on the number of passengers you can take when doing aero's...? Ie. can I take 3 passengers in a 4 seater?

Thanks.
Squarker.

[Wizofoz]

Don't think there is any regulatory problem, it would be as many as the aircraft is certified to do aeros with. That being said, I don't know of any aircraft able to do aeros with more than two up (possibley a Yak18?). Things like the Fuji have four seats but a flight manual limitation to two up for aeros.

What type are you thinking of?

[barondriver]

Back in my training days someone mentioned that you can do aeros in a 172 in America. Sounds like a bull :mad: to me. Besides it'd go like a bit of a slug with 4 in it.

[rmcdonal]

I would think that with 4 pob you would be outside the aerobatic envelope on the load sheet.

[heywatchthis]

I know they do spin training in 172's here in the USA.
Found a vid of someone doing a spin and a roll, dont know how many pobs..

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1303020796

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!:= := :=
Got a flashy new job about 18 months ago flying learjets. First flight with the CP, barroll roll climbing through 10,000.. nice :ok: :ok:

[Speeds high]

The 172 can only be spun in the utility catergory which restricts it to 2 Pob, and a smattering of gas.

[Arm out the window]

Heywatchthis, not being too judgmental here, but how's the CP there - great example to set...(not that it wouldn't be fun) - he'd have a hard time when someone brings back a broken machine:
"Oi, what are you doing busting the limits?!"
"Well, it's OK for you"
"Good point..."

[stevef]

Some years back, a Rallye that was maintained by the company I worked for, lost its wings, killing the the three occupants: the pilot, a boy having the flight as a 16th birthday present and his father, who'd paid for it. The cause? It had been seen a few minutes earlier performing aerobatics. The Aircraft Accident Investigation Board determined that the wing separation had been caused by the pilot exceeding the recommended limitations for that particular weight.
That wasn't a good weekend - another customer flew his AA5 into a stuffed cloud on a cross-country flight.
:^(

[mingalababya]

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!:= := :=


There's a video floating around of a 707 doing a barrell roll during a test flight .... can't remember where I saw it ... it might be on YouTube

[AlphaMale]

707 Roll video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSXWNYFzhXA)

[VH-XXX]

Yep, Yak18... spot on.

[MCKES]

A normal aileron roll does not imply any stress on the airframe. It is a 1G manouvere. just to get technical. A loop will rip the wings off, or anything else.

[slackie]

As always...consult the aircraft manual...stay within the limits stipulated...if that includes 4 people and aerobatics then...yes it is possible!!

As you say...seems like a no brainer to me!

Almost any aircraft is "capable" of performing "aerobatics"...most just aren't capable of recovering (intact) from a botched manouver....sounds too much like Russian Roulette performing aeros in aircraft that aren't certified for the purpose.

[Arm out the window]

Yes, I'm sure an aileron roll or a gentle barrel roll in most aircraft would be doable without too much drama - the major problems that arise as I see it, though, are:

a) If you stuff it up and exceed the limits while recovering, you've done something to the airframe you're not supposed to, and you may have damaged it.
You're hardly going to go back to the engineers and say 'Oh, I was deliberately exceeding flight manual limits and may have stuffed the aircraft, could you please inspect it?'.
Nope, you'd most likely skulk off as if nothing had happened, in the worst case maybe leading to some tragic occurence like the one stevef mentioned;

b) If you get found out you could do your licence; and

c) If you get found out and damage the aircraft, the insurance company is going to come after you in a big way.

[Speeds high]

You can roll anything as long as you do it right!

A normal aileron roll does not imply any stress on the airframe

Famous last words :ugh:

[six_degrees]

An aileron roll in a perfect world is 1G, sure, close enough. To achieve this you need a high enough rate of roll and enough momentum. A slow roll however will vary between 1G and -1 G. The point is a 1G aileron roll only happens in a decent aircraft when conducted correctly. Anything not designed for it, or with a slower roll rate, will not produce a constant 1 G roll (unless height is sacrificed) and will easily exceed that if things go awry.

I agree - aerobatics in anything not certified for it is asking for trouble. You might get away with it once or a hundred times, but it will sting you eventually. We had a pilot tried aileron rolls in a PA28 years ago - singificant damage was done to the structure.

[AerocatS2A]

An aileron roll in a perfect world is 1G, sure, close enough. To achieve this you need a high enough rate of roll and enough momentum. A slow roll however will vary between 1G and -1 G. The point is a 1G aileron roll only happens in a decent aircraft when conducted correctly. Anything not designed for it, or with a slower roll rate, will not produce a constant 1 G roll (unless height is sacrificed) and will easily exceed that if things go awry.


A slow roll rate need not be a problem. Just get a good bit of speed, raise the nose nice and high and allow it to drop through the horizon as you roll. You'll get Gs around 1.5 from the initial pull, down to 0.5 or so going inverted and you'll recover at your entry altitude with speed for another manoeuvre. Of course, then it's no longer a 1g manoeuvre, though it's still well within limits for most non-aerobatic aircraft.

One thing to be wary of with rolling manoeuvres. The g force experienced in the cockpit may be quite different to that at the wing tips. The up-going wing in a manoeuvre involving rolling and pulling, such as a barrel roll, may have significantly more loading than the fuselage and you may be exceeding limits without realising it.

[butterfingers]

Don't think there is any regulatory problem, it would be as many as the aircraft is certified to do aeros with. That being said, I don't know of any aircraft able to do aeros with more than two up (possibley a Yak18?). Things like the Fuji have four seats but a flight manual limitation to two up for aeros.

What type are you thinking of?


Cant remember where i read it (probably the flight manual) , but the Yak 18 can only do aeros when two up....

[podbreak]

A slow roll rate need not be a problem. Just get a good bit of speed, raise the nose nice and high and allow it to drop through the horizon as you roll. You'll get Gs around 1.5 from the initial pull, down to 0.5 or so going inverted and you'll recover at your entry altitude with speed for another manoeuvre. Of course, then it's no longer a 1g manoeuvre, though it's still well within limits for most non-aerobatic aircraft.

One thing to be wary of with rolling manoeuvres. The g force experienced in the cockpit may be quite different to that at the wing tips. The up-going wing in a manoeuvre involving rolling and pulling, such as a barrel roll, may have significantly more loading than the fuselage and you may be exceeding limits without realising it.

Indeed, I think a few people have their barrel and aileron rolls mixed up. Do an aileron roll (not a barrel roll like in the vid) in a 707 and you'll stress the wings. Not to mention that doing a proper aileron roll with a roll rate so slow, will definitely not be a 1G manoeuver!

[nomorecatering]

Didnt Beech offer an aerobatic version of the Bonanza many years back??

[Xcel]

My understanding was that it is limited to utility category for most a/c...

In which case you can only take the number of pax listed as the number for that category.

most cases this is one (1)...

check the poh for these limitations, it isnt a regulatory thing i dont think.

[the wizard of auz]

The 172 can only be spun in the utility catergory which restricts it to 2 Pob, and a smattering of gas.
Every 172 I have ever flown has a great big notice that states " Intentional spins prohibited" somewhere on it.
Most have entry speeds for semi aerobatic maneuvers printed somewhere, like wingovers, lazy eights, chandelles and unexcelerated stalls, but usually has the big old Spins prohibited on it as well.

[Speeds high]

You are quite correct for every model except the "R" (don't know about the S). My bad; should have been more clear.

[M14_P]

Just use a PURPOSE built aerobatic machine and be done with it, one that is designed to do aerobatics, instead of trying to do manoevres of sorts in slightly semi-aerobatic machines.
Makes you wonder, when you hire out ZK-XXX, a 172N from somewhere, just what it has been through during it's 25 year life....I shudder just thinking about it.
I'll stick to purpose built aero machines thanks very much.

[Wombat35]

Hi guys,

I teach GA aerobatics and I have not had one student without an aerobatic background, not try and kill me during their first couple of barrel rolls by ending up in a monster dive through disorientation and lack of nose position awareness.... SO BE WARNED

Spinning can pose some challenges outside the limits, you might not think it makes a difference and it doesn’t .... UNTIL YOU TRY AND RECOVER.


For fifty bucks more, go up with someone in an aircraft that is designed for aero's and have some real FUN. :} :} :}

[Runaway Gun]

I echo Wombat's comments on this page.

Go out and pay an instructor to teach you to do this stuff in a proper approved aerobatics machine.

More experienced pilots than you all have died doing this stuff.

I can't believe people are posting techniques on here - and reading it, it's obvious that these guys don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Think about what you write, or you'll be reading about another pilot and his pax in the papers....

[Wizofoz]

A normal aileron roll does not imply any stress on the airframe. It is a 1G manouvere.

There is much more to this than just lateral G. To roll the aircraft you are putting differential lift onto the wings, which puts bending an twisting moments onto the structure that it may not be designed for.

Just having 1 on the G meter (assuming you have one!!) does nt mean you haven't stressed the airframe.

If it's not designed to do it, don't:=