EK Pilot Jailed

[Not from here]

Looks like JD had his day in court and has been jailed for 4 months.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2494778,00.html
A lesson for us all.

[Keith Discovering]

A bit more info from here too:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/08/europe/EU_GEN_Britain_Drunken_Pilot.php


and pasted below:

LONDON: A pilot was sentenced to four months in jail on Friday for being drunk while on duty with Emirates airline.

Prosecutors said John Cronly-Dillon was nearly seven times over the legal limit for alcohol when he attempted to check in to command a flight to Dubai on Sept. 13.

Cronly-Dillon, who has been fired by the airline, pleaded guilty to an offense of exceeding the blood-alcohol limit.

Tests showed that Cronly-Dillon, 51, had 134 micrograms of alcohol in 100 milliliters of blood, the prosecution said.

"The limit for someone performing the function of captain is 20 micrograms ... so nearly seven times over the limit," said prosecutor Douglas Adams.

"The courts take a very dim view of passengers who get drunk on an aircraft, and it is much worse if it is the pilot, who has a high level of duty of care to those he would have been looking after," Judge Usha Karu said.

Defense lawyer Judith Khan said Cronly-Dillon, an Australian, was "extremely remorseful" and therefore would not have wished to continue working in the aviation industry.

The airline said it was the first incident of its kind in 21 years.

"Emirates took this incident extremely seriously and immediately began an internal inquiry following Mr. Cronly-Dillon's arrest. This led to his instant dismissal," the company said in a statement.

[BYLAW]

4 HP, please remove the name.

Sorry guys, as sad as this affair is, his name is in the public domain & there's no sense in deleting it. 4HP

[ruserious]

Yes please remove, it may be published elsewhere, but that doesn't mean it needs to be here

[145qrh]

:confused: Why should his name be removed??

It has been printed in many newspapers the world over, probably on TV too.

[White Knight]

Got to say I agree with 145 - why should this kind of case remain anonymous:confused: :confused:

[Mistah Kurtz]

Absolutely NOTHING in the British Press about this story,either at the time of the incident or now. Considering when it happened to a BA pilot and a Virgin pilot it was big news this is odd, I wonder why?:confused:

[145qrh]

I just had a quick look at the online editions of The Times, Daily Mail, Independent, London Eveing Standard all had similar headlines about the story, so it isn't invisible.

I do agree it was a bit odd it did'nt make a bigger splash when it happened.

I hope he gets through his time OK, with any luck he should only serve 6-8 weeks....there but for the grace of god go many of us I'm sure..:oh:

[Alan Squeely]

"Emirates says it has a zero-tolerance approach to breaches of alcohol-related regulations and it's the first time the airline has had to deal with such an incident."

From: http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=133352&region=3

All depends on your definition of "this type of incident". There have been two previous pilot resignations over alcohol related events.

I hope the chap involved gets through his time OK.

Any news relkated to a recent reported drug bust at the EK Crew Immigration?

[AI744]

Any news relkated to a recent reported drug bust at the EK Crew Immigration?[/quote]


If there was one again it isnt surprising.....they had a drug bust about two years back as well. Apparently cops went into some of the cabin crew accomodations to break up a prostitution ring and acting on a tip off they found weed in one of the cc's fridges.

The prostitution ring still is pretty rampant I guess considering the tinted cars that wait down 21 CT.

[BYLAW]

In many civilised country`s in the world it is forbidden to publish someones full name . It is to take care that someone is protected-whether he has done something wrong or not- from abuse.
Also , this person is now convicted, so no need to publicly hang him.
Aviation is a very nasty business these days, so it could easily happen to you.

[miss petal]

BYLAW.. what do you mean by civilized country? Cause his name is actually all over the news in UK and Australia.

Although I agree with you that his name shouldn't be published. But there's no point of hiding it here in pprune, if all online news has his name, plus his middle name was there.
I agree with you too, shouldn't be published at the first place.

In Dubai, probably half of the population already know his name, since it's in 7 days today. I was shocked when I read his name was there, I thought its just the Dubai thing.. ..

I flew with him couple of time, never like him. But trust me, he got my sympathy and also towards his family. It's a very ugly situation..

[fractional]

4 HP, please remove the name.
Why bothered if the name appears here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...494778,00.html. You would have to remove the whole thing...

[White Knight]

Bylaw - you're talking b0llocks...... In all the first world countries I've visited there are always full names (and usually ages) in the press when jail cases are being reported. The only exception being for minors!

[REACH-69]

I hope this will be a lesson to all the irresponsible pilots out there. Just think of all the lives you are carrying onboard when you are toxicated :=

[ruserious]

Reach, while no sane person supports the actions that landed this person in jail, unless you know the context of the person's situation, their stress-ors and influences, then I suggest you restrict you commentary to something a bit less critical.
From my experience with this individual, both in the cockpit and occasionally socially, he was a person of high standards of professionalism and integrity. Quite unusual around here. Somehow or other he made a very human mistake.

[sanddancer]

Anyone able to PM me a contact address for JD or even where he's incarcerated?

Always found him good value and extremely professional - can't imagine what caused this.

[fractional]

Assuming this news report is right:
Prosecutors said John Cronly-Dillon was nearly seven times over the legal limit for alcohol when he attempted to check in to command a flight to Dubai on Sept. 13 Ruserious, do you consider this "somehow or other a very human mistake"? For a pilot? A train or bus driver? A sealiner skipper? For you as a car driver if you are taking home your family or your friends after a night out or any other example involving few or many lives? I don't think so. I'm sorry but I cannot agree.
We all, in aviation, make mistakes, but... there are irrelevant ones and those of great importance or inpact. I don't need to detail them here. All he had to do was to report sick, period! Though wrong because he shouldn't have done it, and assuming he was going through some bad patch of his life, it would have been more professional to stay in the hotel room.
Good night! Working day ahead.

[ruserious]

As I said no sane person supports the actions that landed this person in jail But that does not mean we should should hurl stones, sit in judgement or otherwise castigate someone who we don't know or understand.
I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

[jollyikarus]

Come on guys, we all know that a lot of boozing-up is going on in aviation, but usually handled quite well and in a responsible manner. Sometimes I wonder if it is more these days than it was 30 or 40 years ago...although I still remember the days when the first thing we did after some layovers in TPNG was a grab for the oxy-bottle on board!

However, what strikes me most in this particular and certainly unforgivable case...why did his crew not stop him in the hotel lobby prior to pick-up? Surely, somebody must have noticed and any good F/O or senior cabin staff should have clearly told him to stay behind and call sick!
Now, where was that crew spirit???? Something to think about!

Cheers!

;-)

[sec 3]

I agree with you Jolly, but easier said than done sometimes, confronting a captain who you don't know well about something as serious as this in the sometimes frantic time before a departure. I also agree we shouldn't be slagging the captain involved. I'm sure a lot of us have been in a somewhat similar predicament at one time or another. I wish him all the best in the future. As from most incidents in aviation, maybe we can all learn from another's experience.

[ekwhistleblower]

Jolly,

I am with you on this one. The crew have to speak up. Wasn't there the case of a Captain that was jailed for attempting to operate an aircraft knowing that the First Officer and Purser were over the limit? You don't have to hang the guy, just give him a way out. Most guys would jump at the chance, they are anyway probably only going to work out of loyalty to keep the show on the road.

As far as issuing his name, I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't splashed over PPrune immediately the incident happened. I thought the guys showed a lot of integrity but sadly he is fair game to the press as soon as he has been found criminally liable.

I don't think alcohol is as big an issue now as it was say 15 years ago but I am quite worried at some of the trends. We have a guy advertising blood alcohol testers so that you won't get caught on a layover. I was then told by another pilot that they were of no use because the tolerances were not good enough and you had to get a 'fuel cell' device. To me that seems terrrible, almost as if guys are so sad that they have to drink to the absolute limit. I can understand an alcoholic or someone with other issues but I struggle to understand anyone that even feels the need to operate in this way.

Ruserious,

But that does not mean we should should hurl stones, sit in judgement or otherwise castigate someone who we don't know or understand. I would not wish this on my worst enemy

I wholeheartedly agree. But, maybe if we all learn something from this event we can prevent some other guys going down in flames in the future. Everyone makes mistakes; the secret is to not compound them. Those that know the individual concerned would tell you that this was just the last link in a very long chain. To some degree we are all culpable.

I wish him and the family well and hope they can rebuild there lives on the Gold Coast.

[ironbutt57]

Well folks I can see it coming....airlines prohibiting consumption of alcohol while downroute on assignment regardless if that assignment is "rest" or otherwise..:ugh: :eek:

[BYLAW]

4 HP thanks anyway.
White knight : BullOOckks yourself. Obviously - and I don`t blame you- you`re not acquainted with every law in any country in this world. I can asure you, initials only is the rule in a few of them. (Only a few are civilised)
Fractional : sorry mate, too patronising. Never been in a situation were you were asking yourself "AM I legal"? Do you have 8 or 12 hrs limits, 2o mg/ml or nothing/ml ?
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did?
It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.

[ironbutt57]

There was a case while back in the USA where a J-31 capt was reported by a ground agent for being under the influence of alcohol, AFTER she closed the door and saw the flight depart...the Capt subsequently tested upon arrival and found to be so, the F.O. who denies noticing anything abnormal was subsequently sacked as well...apparently some with alcohol addiction show no obvious signs when intoxicated..food for thought

[IXNAT]

Aviation is a very nasty business these days, so it could easily happen to you.

YGTBSM. What could easily happen to whom? If you show up sober to fly those who have enstrusted their lives to you, IT WON"T HAPPEN. If he was out drinking heavily on the layover, his f/o should have made a suggestion to go back to his room. If he was drinking by himself, he had other issues and should have been professional enough to sick out. Twenty or thirty years ago, this may have been the norm, but with the security as it is today, one should know better.

So to take a read on this here on this forum:
a) this could happen to anyone
b) Heavy drinking on layovers is ok, as long as you don't get caught
c) Big difference in flying drunk and driving drunk. Driving drunk-bad, flying drunk-forgiveable and can happen to anyone.

It's not the gentleman in question we should feel bad for, but his family. The shame, financial ruin, and lives of his wife and children (if he had any) changed forever by his actions. If he had a true addiction and not just a layover social drinker, then he should have asked for help, knowing what the consequences could be.

Just watch out for your crewmembers. Take care of each other, and don't let this happen to your friends and collegues. It is sad, not just at your airline, but others around the world that layovers can't be enjoyed with out heavy drinking.
IXNAT

[fractional]

Fractional : sorry mate, too patronising. Never been in a situation were you were asking yourself "AM I legal"? Do you have 8 or 12 hrs limits, 2o mg/ml or nothing/ml ?
Can you drink none, one, two or three drinks legally before driving a car in your country? What is your BMI? How is your liver working? What`s your age? How is your physics? Is drinking socially accepted in your group? How do you know that when you abide the legal limits the actual test will show that you did? It is not all black and white like some people will want us to believe.
Just don't do it! You must know your personal limits and evaluate the circumstances.

[Severely Jetlagged]

An Ex-Etihad Australian Captain must be feeling extremely fortunate and relieved right now.

[jollyikarus]

Sec 3, Muttley Crew,

Sorry, I don't know much about the internal culture at EK, lost touch with them 5 or 6 years ago.
The point(s) I was trying to make is/are another one:
- What's the use of all the time and effort spent on modern CRM (and by that I don't mean Customer Relations Management - although that would come into it as well at some stage!;-) if the rest of the crew bail out or close their eyes?
- All crew are, among other things, employed, trained, paid for and licensed to...'operate and maintain the safety of the aircraft, flight, passengers, cargo...etc. at all times when on duty'.......basically the same meaning but different wording all around the world.

By 'overlooking' the state of condition of their sloshed Captain they did not only endanger their OWN behinds, but also those of all others who trust them to do their jobs properly! The crew, at least those more senior and worth their money, should have acted before this stupid incident made headlines!

I am quite sure that in some parts of the world, not only the airline directly concerned, but also the local CAA, DGCA, FAA ..... whatever they might be called, would take a very serious look into the performance of ALL the crew members involved. Licences and landing rights have already been pulled for less ...

But then.....that's all highly political!

Point made...but understood? ;-)

Cheers,

JI

[guidoknigge]

Going back a few years, anyone remember the case of an EK Captain who stumbled walking up the stairs to the aircraft?

He was reported DRUNK by the purser (via mobile phone) while he was sitting in the flight deck doing his pre flight checks - dragged off the plane like a criminal by police, taken to hospital to draw blood, suspended from duty.

Result - NO alcohol, he simply stumbled walking up the steps.

NOT EVEN AN APOLOGY FROM THE COMPANY, OR PURSER FOR THE GRIEF THEY CAUSED HIM! :D


Warlock 2000 - As far as I remember that captain was the same JD who is now in jail. I was also there when the then HOFO Chris Knowles offered a profound apology in the presence of most of EK's brass.

[blueside^]

Guidoknigge, sorry to say you have your stories twisted. := Warlock2000 was relating a story about ID not JD.

[mandi kucing]

They must be brothers? You guys seems to have problem to differentiate between these two guys.

[Fosters Expat]

As far as I am concerned, whilst you are on company time, you should not be drinking alcohol to the extent, that 12hrs later you are unable to pass a breath/blood alcohol test. Regardless of the days gone by when biggles ruled the skies, you are all charged with a position of responsibility/accountability. It's your choice.... you choose for that responsibility to be to your employer, or towards the fare paying passengers that have chosen to travel with your employer. At the end of the day, many of you so often preach on these pages about professionalism and respect, yet when one person makes a rather bad decision, a large amount of you want to make excuses....

He tested positive. There is very little else to discuss. The individual concerned made a bad decision, and he will live with that for the rest of his life.

Moving towards those who suggest he should have called in sick..... If (and only if) he knew of a drink addiction, or was willing to admit to one, he would have found zero support here in Dubai from the company. This is not the western world, and those that think it is, are sadly mistaken.

blueside,
I believe your intentions were honorable, however a simple, 'no, you have the wrong person' would have done nicely. The past is the past.

guidoknigge...
you gotta change your handle dude.... no more ciggies for you..... haha :}

[Ramboflyer 1]

:ok: Funny thing is some guys dont need to be pissed to still be a danger to the passengers.
EK allow that up to 1% of their workforce will end up in jail at some point throughout their career.Ie car crashs, fingers up, bounced cheques. Anybody who signed a security check with mashreq bank to get a credit card is in serious danger , do not continue it go to another bank for cards like HSBC or citibank.

[ernestkgann]

Rambo,
pls pm me with the dangers of mashreq bank security cheques. Can't remember if I signed one or not. Sorry for the change of tack in this thread. No doubt JD did wrong but there are some holier than thou attitudes on display here. It's ironic that companies can fatigue us to the point where we have some equivalency of insobriety and yet not face any kind of prosecution.

[Wiley]

I can confirm that the captain who fell while boarding the crew bus was definitely not JD.

Some might have missed the long post from Capt Lyle Prouse of NW Airlines on page 3 of the thread on this same subject on the main Pprune page. It's well worth a read, particularly by those in the "hang, draw and quarter the guilty bastard" brigade.

[babyslug]

Just as well he didn't steal a loaf of bread, otherwise he would be sent to Australia, and might end up in Jet*s labour camp, working for bread and rations.

[White Knight]

Bylaw - "civilised" countries:confused: Which ones don't allow full names of adults who are found to be guilty of a CRIMINAL charge to be published....

I don't recall the Yorkshire Ripper as being P.S in the papers, or Moors murderer M.H:ugh: As for the States, the Oklahoma Bomber wasn't T.M. I'm not saying by any means that this case can be equated to these - however these are just examples.....

Never met the guy but I sincerely hope that he and his family can pick up the pieces after this..

[BYLAW]

White Knight : Sorry mate, yes there are countries which only allow initials.
For the law there`s also quite a big difference between a mass murderer and a drunk driver.
Luckily law in most countries do apply those differences, so that citizens do not get publicly hanged for stealing a bread, like in medievel times.
Although I do get the feeling that most people here would like a return to those times. (ixnat)

jollyikarus: does it occur to you that this guy did not behave like somebody beiing intoxicated? So who in the crew should pick up on that?

[White Knight]

Bylaw - don't know those countries myself, although I have been resident in UK, USA, Canada and Australia over the years - as well as some more third world places...

Got to say I don't see how being "intoxicated" in charge of an airliner quite equates to stealing a loaf of bread:ugh: :ugh: It could however lead to mass murder - so get off your "high anonymity horse":=

[PITA]

I suggest to all on this thread who would like to read an amazing story written by a gentleman who has already traveled the road that JD and his family are about to travel, read those responses in the General section of Prune.

The rest of you moral "purists" will never get it anyway.

[PITA]

I suggest to all on this thread who would like to read an amazing story written by a gentleman who has already traveled the road that JD and his family are about to travel, read those responses in the Rumour and News section of Prune.
The rest of you moral "purists" will never get it anyway.
God speed to JD to return to Aviation.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Pita their is no god............

[jumbo1]

As PITA says....

Response to Flying Lawyer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, sir. Your description of what happens to a client immediately after sentencing is disturbingly accurate.

At my sentencing, the judge offered to let all three of us remain free pending appeals, since this was the first time this law had ever been applied and there were many complex legal issues. The other two opted to remain free. I told the judge I had been convicted and it was time for me to go into prison...because I had learned how to "live life on life's terms" as we said in treatment, and I refused to whistle in the dark.

I was terrified of walking in there but I recalled something I'd learned as a Marine, that "Courage is not the absence of fear; it's the ability to continue in the face of it."

No one who has ever walked into prison will ever again glimpse life or the world as he or she once did prior. When I speak from the podium I never talk about prison...because I think it's irrelevant to my recovery. But my recovery, the power of what I learned in each of the 12 steps, and the principles behind each one, greatly impacted how I handled prison.

The comments that follow are simply a narrative; they are NOT a plea for sympathy because I deserved none. I did what I did and I got what I got, and it was fair. However, as my judge said when he sentenced us, "The greatest sorrow is reserved for the wives and children, but I do not have the power to ease that."

The public at large, as you so eloquently describe, has no clue about the impact of being locked up in the midst of 24 hour insanity that seemingly has no end.

The smell of rain is different in there, the moon looks different at night, and the feel of a breeze on one's face is not the same as free air. I was accustomed to being free...and it was not easy for me. So I did it one day at a time...shorter when necessary...for 424 days.

There are two incredibly sick groups in prison and the sickest group goes home every night. It is a system that is so sick, twisted, and obscene that no one believes it and it's self-protected in that regard. It is a system designed to emotionally castrate and permanently scar all who enter. And it is usually successful.

No one can describe the feeling of having a wife and children come visit their convict husband and father, dressed in drab prison khakis, treated as a sub-human by the guards, and surrounded by the oppressing prison atmosphere.

I had been the standard bearer in my family for duty, honor, country. I had been the one who espoused character, honesty, and integrity as my kids grew up. But in the disgrace I brought upon myself it all seemed hollow and for naught.

In the long term I was able to experience something one of my meditation books said. "My father didn't tell me how to live," it said, "He lived and let me watch him do it."

I never expected to have to be the example that was forced my way. But hopefully, what my children witnessed as I made the long climb back out of the blackest valley of disgrace and despair to the beauty of the sunlit mountain top, may have more impact on them than all the words I spoke in all the years preceding. Walking the walk will always take precedence over talking the talk. And it was a long walk indeed. A million miles, one step at a time.

There are those posting here who cavalierly dismiss and declare, with a wave of their hand and a smug smile, how frivolous prison seems to them. But no one who has been there, or who has had a son or daughter there, will do that.

Or they will utter what I consider the most inane comment of all: "Well...they should have thought of that before they did it." Think about it a moment. If people did actually did that there would never be any crime. What I did, and what the other pilots did who've gotten in trouble with alcohol, was not premediated; it was not intentional. We didn't sit down and weigh the pros and cons. Not one of us said, "I think, given the wonderful life and career I have, that I'll go out and destroy it tonight, end up in the headlines, and go to prison." It's a stupidly ridiculous comment that most of us simply nod affirmatively to and never give any further thought. It may sound good but it flies in the face of human nature.

I will not take time nor space to share with you the experience I had with the attorney representing me. He was as impacted by this whole experience as I was and our relationship became a unique one as we went through this together. He worked for me for several years afterwards, refusing to take a cent (which I didn't have but would have paid over time) - and his response was always the same - "I believe in you and I'm staying to the end, wherever that is." And he did.

So many others also did.

Two weeks after I entered prison my wife came in and told me nine of my fellow pilots had self assessed themselves and were making our house payments. Two of them I didn't even know. And they did this for nearly four years in spite of four concerted attempts on my part to get them to stop.

There are many good people in this world...and then there are the grandiose, the smug, the superior, and the ignorant. To those who somehow feel they've lived a life free of fault I simply suggest they may have set their standards far too low.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse


To all those who point fingers so gleefully
There but for the grace.............................

[wwIIace]

did no one else notice, but in one of the press releases, he mentioned that he had been working max hours (read fatigue) and that his body was maybe unable to dilute the alchol as it should. has medical back up for this. is EK culprible if running guys to max and then they suffer from fatigue etc.

[PITA]

Why the deletions on my references to "God"

Are you CHICKEN?

Bit touchy old chap? I've got no problem with the divine creator in whatever form you wish to worship him. You made, what in effect were two virtually similar posts. In my daily trudge through the forums I binned one in a gesture of common housekeeping, not as an affront to your spiritual deity. I've returned your double post to its original glory, in a humble effort to assuage your theological angst. 4HP