CPL/ATPL qualifying hours requirements

[too_sleepy]

Hi
Right now I'm building a few hours in San Diego and want to get the 300 NM cross country done. Does the CAA look for anything other than my logbook entry to check that I've completed a flight of 300 NM? I'm not flying with a school so they can't confirm the flight. I'd hate to get it done and then be told Oh no you need this form signed somone at the destination airfield.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[Mercenary Pilot]

Nah, youve just got to show 2 land aways. I was going to put the distance in my logbook but I forgot, nobody said anything so ether they measured the route or more likly took my word for it.

When you fill in your CPL/IR application form you just need to put in the date you did it and they will check the relevent entrys in your log.

I flew coast to coast in Florida and then down to the Keys.:cool:

[too_sleepy]

Hi
Thanks for the reply. The cross country is tomorrow, probably Vegas as I've flown 1/2 of the route already.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dont know what country you are planning to get your licence issued in but I can definitely tell you that in Australia / NZ the ICAO 300 miler has to be signed off in your logbook by an instructor or the CAA won't accept it ...

[mightymouse111]

I have come across individuals that have had their flights checked and had to re-do them. This was not because they did not do them but because there was no evidence to prove it. To make sure I would try and get a form (similiar to the PPL qualifier) signed.

Nb; The CAA are wise that many a dodgy pilot may not fly it and put an entry in their book!!!(esp in another country) and if it turns out that person lied..........not nice!!

[helicopter-redeye]

Photocopy the techlog for the flights.

If your paying for the hire then you would not increase the numbers ...

Either way, it is a legal document and the easiest way of giving proof from a second source.

h-r:)

[too_sleepy]

Thanks for the tips. the club I rent from don't have a problem giving me something in writing anf one of the FAA instructors will sign my logbook.
One other question, do any of the legs need to be a minimum length? Apparently the FAA regs. are one leg of 250 NM, this would make the flight far more difficult for me in San Diego.

Thanks again

[BigGrecian]

Might be worth nothing that the CAA will not accept X-Country trips which were split over two days. They say it is reasonable to do it in one day - which I agree with therefore it as to be done on the one day.

[FlyingRat]

CAA will accept it over two days if you have a valid excuse.

My aircraft went tech at Southend on the Saturday and I finished the flight off on the Monday.

CAA had no problems with this

[FlyingForFun]

Might be worth nothing that the CAA will not accept X-Country trips which were split over two days. They say it is reasonable to do it in one day - which I agree with therefore it as to be done on the one dayI did mine over two days. I've never been asked for "a valid excuse" either. On the CPL and the FI(R) application forms, I just put "15-16 Jan" (or whatever the dates were) and no one has queried it.

FFF
----------------

[Linda Mollison]

They changed the rules last December but, in ther own inimitable fashion, have not bothered to tell anyone (and it is not in the new version of LASORS!)

But I have it on authority from the CAA that it should be done in one day, but if there is a valid reason why not, e.g. weather, tech problems, they will accept it over two days.

[mad_jock]

Mine was 8 sectors of about 50 nm's each.

Didn't actually mean to do the qualifier at the time just when i thought i should get my finger out and do it realised i already had.


No signatures just at he end of the hour build got the CFI to sign that all entrys were correct.


The joys of finding things to do in Florida

[PGA]

I have been looking in to the several hours requirements to unfreeze my ATPL. Subsequently it said i need 100 hours PIC. I believe the hours i fly in a multi crew environment don`t count as PIC but as Supervised Pilot in Command, SPIC.

Would anybody be able to shed some light on this rule? Since i`ve undergone an integrated course i`ve only get something in the order of 50 pic solo hours, the rest is all SPIC, so this would still leave me around 50 hours short of the requirement.

So have any off you been through this process already?

[Strepsils]

PIC, SPIC, PICUS, P1/US - As far as applying for your licence is concerned they are all the same. You should know that your integrated course requires a minimum of 100PIC for initial licence issue, hence you already have it.

I believe the hours i fly in a multi crew environment don`t count as PIC but as Supervised Pilot in Command, SPIC Not necessarily true. Assuming your aircraft is a certified multi-crew aircraft then you will log PICUS when it's your sector and P2 when it's the captains sector.

If you are UK based I suggest you go to www.caa.co.uk and download LASORs 2006:ok:

[PGA]

Yes my aircraft is indeed a multi crew aircraft, so all of "my sectors" in effect are PIC...although logged as picus or spic or whatever your logbook calls it? If so thats good news :)

[Lord Flashheart]

What is the difference between SPIC and PICUS? Are they exactly the same thing? When would you log hours as SPIC compared to PICUS?

At what point does PUT become SPIC during CPL/IR training? Or is the whole CPL/IR course logged as PUT due to no solo time being included?

Thanks

[PGA]

Strepsils, after having checked the lasors its still not 100% clear to me. They say you need 250 hours pic, of which 150 hours can be copilot hours logged as spic/picus. That still leaves me with 100 hours of which i only have 50.

Is there anybody out there who after having undergone an integrated course walked into the same problem?

[Sempre Volando]

Give the CAA a ring - There will prob be some dispensation or rule for Integrated course students since nowadays you only complete the course with about 170hrs TT? I know of pilots in my airline who were integrated during the last 3 years or so and now have Full ATPL's. I doubt they would have had 100hrs PIC (solo) whatever you want to call it since they all got jobs with around 180hrs TT.

[Strepsils]

Aaaarrgghh! Work with me here PGA!:8

You say you did an integrated course, just like I did. That means to get your CPL you had 100 hours PIC, made up of your 50 hours PIC and 50 hours SPIC. You have had 100 hours PIC since the day you finished your flying training! Add you 150+ hours PICUS as a co-pilot and you're ready to go! Just make sure you get those night hours:ok:

LF - It was explained to me as :
SPIC - Student Pilot in Command i.e. flying a single pilot a/c such as a Seneca as P1 but with an instructor on board at all times.
PICUS -(or P1/US) - Pilot in Command under supervision i.e. Multi-crew aircraft and flying as P1 when you are not the captain. You are not P1 as you are not the Commander but it is your sector, hence you log P1 and remark PICUS in the remarks column.

[BEagle]

The applicant for or the holder of a pilot
licence may log as pilot-in-command time all
solo flight time and flight time as student
pilot-in-command provided that such SPIC
time is countersigned by the instructor and is
part of an approved syllabus of training.

Student pilot-in-command (SPIC):

Flight time during which the flight instructor will only observe the student
acting as pilot-in-command and shall not influence or control the flight of the
aircraft. SPIC hours can only be accredited for graduates of Integrated
Courses for ATPL (A)/(H) and CPL(A)/IR

[despegue]

As an FO, I always put my hours under "co-pilot" in my JAA logbook, and have done so the last 2 years.
Should I have put my sectors under "pilot-in-command" then?? This doesn't sound right?!
Maybe it's a British thing with that P1 and P2 rule.
I always thought that PICUS should only be used in command line-training.

[PGA]

Thanks Strepsils, I`m there now! Must have something to do with the time of the day...

:cool:

[BillieBob]

SPIC is a red herring - it may only be claimed as part of an integrated course of training. Think about it - if you are a member of the crew of a multi-pilot aeroplane you are hardly a student any more, so how can you claim 'student pilot in command' time?

Under JAR-FCL, time spent in the right hand seat of a multi-pilot aeroplane should be recorded as PICUS if acting as pilot in command under supervision, in which case each entry so recorded should be countersigned by the supervising PIC. Otherwise, such flights should be recorded as co-pilot (or P2 if not using a JAR-compliant logbook).

All properly recorded PIC, SPIC and PICUS flights may be counted as PIC towards the requirements for licence issue.

[despegue]

How can anyone expect us to fill-in our logbooks immediately after the flight (to be able to get the signature of the PIC) when it is recommended to leave your logbook at home...?!?! This isn't logical.
I will just keep writing my hours as co-pilot. Best option in my opinion as I have already more than 100h PIC.

[Strepsils]

despegue - in which case you're in for a shock when you apply for your ATPL, you need 150hours PIC multi-crew (PICUS).

Log all your sectors as P1, remark them as PICUS, then when it's time to apply for your ATPL get your Fleet manager/chief pilot or equivalent to either write a letter or countersign the last completed page of your logbook stating the hours are accurate.

Please, everyone, go to www.caa.co.uk and download LASORS! It's free and it explains everything!

[AlternativeProcedure]

Hi Folks,
Can someone help me out with this one, I have a JAR Complaint "Jeppesen Pilot Logbook", black long book, some of you may even have it. I've just been checked out on a twin otter and would need to be able to log P1US when ever I'm the PF. But there doesn't seem to be a column that allows me to specify something like that.
The only columns I have are "Name of PIC", "Pilot In Command" Time, "Co-Pilot" Time , "Dual" Time and "instructor" time. The PIC is always in charge even in supervisory role, so how do I specify P1US? Or do I put his/her name, and log the time as PIC under the column "Pilot In Command" instead of "Co-Pilot" Time?
AP

[despegue]

Exactly my problem too!
There is no provision for this in standard JAR logbooks I think.
Also, none of my collegues write down their PF as PIC.
Seems that there is still lots of confusion around JAR-Land...

Strepsils, Thanks for the advice. I will do so and ask advice to my local CAA.

[Strepsils]

AlternativeProcedure - do I put his/her name, and log the time as PIC under the column "Pilot In Command" instead of "Co-Pilot" Time? Yes!:ok:

Let me clear this up :

When you fly and it's your sector, you log P1, or PIC or whatever it says in your book. In the remarks column, you write PICUS. When it's the other guys sector you log P2.

[PD210]

JAR-FCL CPL(A)

I am doing my CPL in May and I want to make sure that I have all the pre-requisites to start the course. Having consulted the LASORS guide I think I am right in the following:

(coming from a modular background)
To start the CPL course I will need 150hrs total total time 'as a pilot'. As far as I can see, it does not state a certain amount of hours as P1.

Upon completion of the course/to undertake a CPL Skills Test:
100hrs P1
this to include:
20hrs cross-country as P1
10hrs instrument dual instruction
5hrs night flying

And before undertaking the CPL Skill Test, a pass in all 14 ATPL ground examinations is required.

Finally, to apply for a CPL a total of 200hrs of flight time is required. I suspect for many people, an element of hour building is required from perhaps 175hrs to achieve this total. In this scenario does one simply delay sending in the appropriate paperwork to the CAA until the 200hrs is achieved?

If anyone wants to verify the above info, it'd be appreciated and if anyone wants to add any useful info... ;)

PD210

[LFS]

All correct as long as you use a complex single aircraft, if you intend to combine the course with a M/E rating you will need 70 hours P1. There is no problem with passing the test then delaying applying until you have got the 200hrs TT and 100 hrs P1. You have 12 months from date of test to apply for a CPL.

[Dude~]

Not all correct:

You don't need all 14 ATPL exams for the CPL, just the CPL exams of whihc there are less than 14.

Also, don't forget the 300nm cross country with 2 away stops.

Re the 200 hrs total required for issue - many people will carry on with the MEP rating and the IR which should just about give them another 25 hrs flying and so sufficient for CPL issue, but beware, some people I know have not had sufficient P1 hours for CPL-IR issue and have had their application returned by the CAA. It seems people have often logged P1u/s for club checkouts etc and the CAA tend to change them to P.u/t which is correct. Therefore they run short on P1 hours....

[Keygrip]

You do NOT require 100 hours P1 either to start the course, by the end of the course, or before taking the CPL skill test. You only need the 100 hours P1 by the time of application for the licence.

The 25hour CPL course (all single engine) is all dual, and will include the 10 hours instrument time you mention.

As said before, to do the test in a multi engine aircraft - the course will extend to 28 hours and will include a MINIMUM of 8 hours multi engine flying (but consider doing more - Oxford (USA), for example, currently do 14 hours PA28 and 14 hours Seneca. Could even consider 14 hours Arrow and 14 hours Multi - no reason why not.)

You cannot take the flight test unless you have completed the training for the issue of a night qualification (whether issued or not, doesn't matter), nor can you take a UK CPL skill test unless you have passed all the training and testing for the issue of a UK Radio Telephony Operators Licence.

BTW - avoid any school that will teach you as much as they can in 25 hours and put you forward for test. Find one that will take as many hours as it takes to teach you what you need to know.

Whilst talking of what you need to know - there's much more to the CPL than a skill test at the end of a course.

If you ignore the last two paragraphs don't start getting sulky about never being able to get an airline job because you didn't get a full pass, first time.

[clarityinthemurk]

Pray tell, do enlighten the masses, tell us those things being examined other than the items on the CAA CPL skill-test checklist. All those lovely considerations such as race, creed, sex, perhaps. Special powers of crystal ball gazing giving you deep insight, much greater than those highly qualified medical people who issue Class 1’s perhaps. Or is it just whether you like the gal or not?

[PD210]

Righto then,

Thanks for the verifications and comments although Keygrip seems to be going off on one. Was aware of the 300nm xc. That's in the bag.

I did try the search tool on this one. It's a shame you have to be a user and log in for this facility. And typing in CPL seems to be a problem as a word needs to have more than three letters. A shame in this abbreviation ridden world of aviation.

Ta.
Lovely day here. Must go flyin.:)

PD210

[Dude~]

You might already be aware but some people don't realise that you can download LASORS as a .pdf file for free from the CAA.

That way you can search for 'CPL' for example and instantly get all the official info.

I assume you have your own PC of course!;)

[BroomstickPilot]

PD210,
On the basis of my own experience, I would advise anybody to take ATPL, not CPL.
I strongly urge you to look up my posts on the CPL before you commit yourself to it. If you can't find them, PM me.
Best regards,
BroomstickPilot

[Clandestino]

when you apply for your ATPL, you need 150hours PIC multi-crew

Nope.

When you apply for JAA ATPL, you have to be at leat 21 yrs old, you have to pass ATPL theory, your total flight time should be at leat 1500 hrs, 500 of which on MPA and 250 PiC, 150 of which may be PiCUS. So it's may and not must. If you have 250 PiC hrs, be it in C-172, cub, seneca or pawnee, your PiCUS time might be zero and still you can get your ATPL if you meet other criteria. PiCUS was invented for the lucky ones who went straight from their integrated courses to RHS of some shiny 15t+ turbine equipment so they can get their ATPLs and need not put their co-piloting on hold for 2-3 months while they pound circuit in C-150 and build PiC time.

My CAA doesn't check logbooks for PiCUS entries. To have your PiCUS time recognized, you have to have letter of confirmation by your trainning dept. that you have indeed accrued necessary number of picus hours. As my company policy is to issue confirmations only for pilots who are to be upgraded shortly, F/O with 4000 hrs on MRJT and his ATPL still frozen is not an uncommon sight in my part of the universe.

[PD210]

Hi BroomstickPilot,

I understand the difference between ATPL and CPL theory and was well aware of the significant restriction of doing the latter. It was only the other week that I sat my last of the 14 ATPL papers (Air Law - bitchin). But thanks for highlighting the difference, perhaps for others who read this.

Cheers
PD210

[BEagle]

"You do NOT require 100 hours P1 either to start the course, by the end of the course, or before taking the CPL skill test. You only need the 100 hours P1 by the time of application for the licence."

But you do need the 150 hours TT before commencing the CPL Modular Course.

<<edit: He said that in his original post.>>

[powdermonkey]

Hi all, can you help me on this one?

Experience

The applicant shall have completed in aeroplanes not less than:

(a) 200 hours of flight time or 150 hours if completed during a course of approved training. This may include a maximum of 10 hours in a synthetic flight trainer.
(b) the above is to include:

(i) 100 hours as pilot in command (70 hours in the case of an approved course.
(ii) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command including a flight of not less than 300 nm with two full stop landings at different aerodromes.
(iii) 20 hours of instrument instruction time of which not more than 5 hours may be ground time.
(iv) if the licence is to be used at night; 5 hours of night flight time including 5 take-offs and 5 landings as pilot in command.

Question; can I start my CPL training at 150hrs total time but only 30hrs P1, complete the training and do the test, and then come up with the rest of the hours in order to have the CPL issued?
Or, do the required hours as stated above need to be completed prior to doing the test?

Thanks if you can clarify
Pm

<<edit: Powder - even if you can't be bothered to run a search - please at least look down to the end of the page (if not one or two more recent ones). The same question is asked every week. The answers don't change.>>

[powdermonkey]

<<edit: Powder - even if you can't be bothered to run a search - please at least look down to the end of the page (if not one or two more recent ones). The same question is asked every week. The answers don't change.>>[/QUOTE]

Sorry.......Keygrip wasn't thinking, it's not that I wasn't bothered!

[powdermonkey]

Keygrip, as you are in the know, can you tell me if this is ok.
I am finishing my IAA ATPL's ( 3 left to do ) in April. If during that time I do my 300nm cross country in Irish airspace, and subsequently do my CPL in the US, I will be doing this under the authority of the CAA ( which now recognise IAA ATPL's and vice versa). Will they recognise the cross country undertaken in Ireland?
Thanks if you can clarify

[Keygrip]

Absolutely, no problem with the "International" cross-country.

[powdermonkey]

Thanks for that:ok:

[guimaraes]

I'm sorry if it's already explained somewhere....

I'm not sure that I got it right.

When I get CPL/IR,what do I need for ATPL?

1500 hours experience?Is this right?

Where do I get experience if I don't have ATPL?

Can I start ATPL without any experience?

Any explanation would be appreciated.

[FlyingForFun]

After your training, you will have a CPL/IR and an MCC, and credits in the ATPL written exams, which is commonly known (in the UK at least) as a "frozen ATPL".

With this, you can (in theory, at least) get a job in the right hand seat of an airliner.

In order to get an ATPL, you must have 1500 hours total flying time, which must include 500 hours in a multi-crew environment, as well as several other requirements. Once you meet these requirements, your license is upgraded to an ATPL, and you can now be Captain of a multi-crew aircraft.

Hope that clears it up for you.

FFF
---------------

[welliewanger]

you also need to pass the 14 written exams. oh, and 500 hours of your flying needs to be PIC. Once you have CPL/IR and ATPL exams, you have a frozen ATPL (fATPL) and can apply for first officer jobs. Then you build up your 1500 hours to unfreeze the ATPL.

[fatboyslimfast]

Once you pass your atpl theory,get your CPL/IR and mcc you get a frozen atpl.

To get it unfrozen (basically to get a full atpl licence) you need, if my air law memory serves me right

1500 total time of which
100 hours night
75 hours are on instruments,
500 hours mulit crew
750 hours pilot in command of aeroplanes
One or two more requirments i think

Dont quote me on the above, my air law is a bit rusty.

But in a nutshell, once you have a frozen atpl, you can apply for work as a FO with an airline. You wont be able to get your full atpl until you get a job with an airline or some other operator of multi crew aircraft because of the requirement for multi crew time.

[guimaraes]

ok,maybe I'm dumb or it's different in my language :)

The guy from the airline I contacted told me that they recruite pilots with CPL,two engine IFR and enrolled,subscribed ATPL*

Is this frozen ATPL?

CPL + two engine IFR = ???? CPL/IR?

Thanx

[potatowings]

The requirement for PIC time can be given from 50% of your co-pilot time.

[GusHoneybun]

Guimaraes,

Don't know what a "enrolled,subscribed ATPL*" is, but if you are going for a job as an FO, then you will need
a) CPL
b) Multi Engine IR
c) MCC

If you are going for a job as a Captain you need
a) ATPL

To go from a CPL with Multi Engine IR and MCC to obtaining a ATPL you need the following

1500 Hours Total Time
500 Hours Multi Crew
100 Hours Night
75 Hours Instrument Time
250 Hours PIC (including 150 hours Co Pilot PICUS)
200 Hours Cross Country (including 100 hours Co Pilot PICUS)

You will also need to have passed all of the ATPL Theory exams

And finally, for the licence to be issued, you must have passed an ATPL skills test. This is either an LST or LPC on a multi crew aircraft.

As to how you get that experience, everyone does this as a co-pilot or first officer.

[guimaraes]

CPL(A) / IR
Comercial
Pilot Licence
Instrument Rating integrated
- Valid medical certificate (class 1)
C - 172
158:30


-187 flying hours

C – 152
07:00
C – 310
21:30
Flight training device
15:00
Theory
680 hours





ATPL (A)
Theory Modular course
- - CPL / IR holder
Theory
400 hours



This is from website of the flight school where I want to go...

Ok,so when I get CPL/IR,I can start ATPL,but I can pass only theory and then I get fATPL with which I can work as F/O.After I get all the hours needed,I can get full ATPL.

Did I get it right?

[Pauliejet]

Download this:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

It's Lasors 2006, scan down to the APTL section, "G", I think from memory. Or give them a call on :

Safety Regulation Group
Civil Aviation Authority
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex RH6 0YR
T: 01293 567171

Ask for Flight Crew Licencing Dept, they are pretty helpful ... usually.

[edymonster]

you have to be 21 aswell

[guimaraes]

ok,i got that one...
thanx guys

[chrisbl]

A simple question really.

In LASORS is specifies that for the CPL experience on a modular course an applicant must have 20 hours VFR time as PIC including a cross country flight of 300nm in the course of which landings at two areodromes different from the aerodrome of departure are to be made.

My question is about the 300nm trip.

Is that 300nm from the departure aerodrome or is it a route distance of 300nm?

In the US the requirement is for one cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. This has to be done SOLO.

[BigGrecian]

This has been covered many times before - use the search function next time but for what it's worth:
LASORS D1.2A
20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-Command, including , a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300 nm) in the course of which full-stop
landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be
made;

So that's just 300nm total.

[wbryce]

If you dont mind I have question I would like to ask about this subject:

Once you do the PPL cross country you have the sheet of paper which you get signed at each aerodrome...whats the procedure for the CPL one? Do you just use your log book?

I'm doing a flight next month that would definately full fill this requirement and just wondering how I present this as a completed module to the CAA?

[GusHoneybun]

No signatures or paperwork is required for the cross country qualifier. The CAA are happy to take your logbook on face value. If you want to be sure though, you could always keep receipts of your landing fees.

[Whopity]

Log book evidence is all thats required. After all, if you put in a fraudulent entry, you would stand to loose any professional licence you obtained by doing it.

[wbryce]

If thats the case then I already have that box ticked! thanks for reply! :)

[chrisbl]

Big Grecian,

Thanks for your contribution.

I did quote LASORS so there was no need to quote it yourself. I just wanted to benefit from others who had done the trip to know what was meant.

Thankfully the FAA make things much clearer and less ambiguous.

The follow up question is this.

The trip has to be made as PIC. The US require that the trip is done solo so that is obviously PIC. Can a passenger be carried in meeting the LASORS requirement?

[Whopity]

From JAR-FCL1:
(c) 20 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command including a VFR cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made;
From ICAO Annex 1:
b) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand including a cross-country flight totalling not less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be made;
provided you hold a licence that entitles you to carry passengers, then there is nothing to prevent it!

I think the requirement is perfectly clear. You say that the FAA require you to do it SOLO but thats not what my copy of FARS states!

[chrisbl]

I think the requirement is perfectly clear. You say that the FAA require you to do it SOLO but thats not what my copy of FARS states!


Well read the FARs properly 61.129 (4) (i)

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part, which includes at least—

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and



whats ambiguous about that!

<<edit: That response is going to hurt. Watch for incoming.>>

[bellyfluffer]

Any advice/solutions/experiences of this situation would be gratefully appreciated.

Ive decided to do my IR before my cpl but have been told that you have to have your night rating before starting the training ( right or wrong?), however after calling around many schools who laugh at me wanting to do a night rating at this time of year one place said that you only need to have a night rating for issue therefore i could leave it till after both my IR and CPL (again is this right or wrong?), i have looked at lasors but it seems a little vague on this matter and after a unhelpfull conversation with a young lady at the CAA today who just read out the same section of lasors to me im none the wiser!!!
Please help as i have the chance to start next week on the IR
Thanks in advance:ok:

[mad_jock]

I seem to remember that you have to have done the training for the night before going for your IR or CPL. If you do the IR first they want it on your license but if you do the CPL first you only have to have done the training nothing needs to be issued. Once you have the CPL pass sheet in you hand then you can start the IR no probs. And submit the whole lot in one go.

Give Dylan a ring at Leeds Flying school he will know the score.

I suspect the only chance you have of getting night training done this time of year is to go to the states. You will need to go to a 24H airport and then try and get an instructor willing to work at past 10 pm. So the likes of east mids might be able to do it. The open bribe of a couple of crates of beer may have to be put on the table, over and on top of the course fee to get an Instructor though.

[bellyfluffer]

Cheers M-J

Unfortunately usa is out as it would take up to 6weeks to get the 'training visa' :*

I found this in lasors, but yet again it doesnt state if "applicants" means for starting the training or for actual issue? grrrr

"All applicants must hold a PPL(A) including a Night
Qualification/Rating or a CPL(A), and a Flight
Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence."

Please please help someone:(

[mcgoo]

why don't you ask the FTO where you might be doing your IR, surely they would know?

[bellyfluffer]

Well ive spoke to several fto's including where i did my ppl and where im hoping to do the rest of my training and i seem to be getting a variety of answers hence my concern, after all who would want to spend £11,000 on an ir and then be told 'sorry we wont recognise it because your night rating is dated after your ir!' :=

[EGAC_Ramper]

Night rating is needed before CPL or IR training begins.


Regards:)

[mad_jock]

Belly you wouldn't even get to sit the test. It would be picked up by your 170A examiner.

It says in E 1.2 that you must have a PPL or CPL which allows you to fly at night. As part of pre course experence requirments. So I think you are knackard.

And remember as well it needs to be issued so unless you go and sit at Gatwick that will take 3 weeks to come back.

As I said you are goig to have to phone round all the schools who operate out of 24H airports and see if anyone is willing to work at that time of night.
I suspect it will cost you a fortune in landing fee's if you do it in the UK.

Fancy a week in Cyprus?

Griffon http://www.griffonaviation.com/

You can do the training in any ICAO country although I suspect cyprus is part of JAR

And you will need a MEP course and test cert as well.

I would phone some of the favorite pprune FTO's in Florida you never know one of them maybe able to help.

[bellyfluffer]

I thought about that but im going to be doing it in spain and while spain is obviously jaa it does not have a night rating? Therefore not a requirement, crazy situation isnt it!? no idea why! but means i could achieve the rating and have it issued by the uk caa as a few others have, but ive tried pm's and emails to a few of the people on pprune who have done this but i havnt had areply yet.
So as you can see i could get the ir but its wether the uk caa will then find a problem with it! To make matters even more complicated the school in spain does 10hours of night training as part of thier course but yet again i couldnt get the caa lady today comment on wether this would equate to a 'night rating'?
SORRY for being such an akward pain in the &*^%£ but at least you see why i am so confused!!!!!:{

[BillieBob]

yet again i couldnt get the caa lady today comment on wether this would equate to a night 'rating'Perhaps because there is no such thing as a 'night rating'. Under JAR, there is only a night 'qualification', which is not a pre-requisite for commencing a modular CPL(A) course. If, however, the night qualification is not held, the course is extended by 5 hours night flight instruction (see Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4)).

The night qualification is a pre-requisite for commencing a modular IR(A) course (see Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.205). If it is true that Spain does not require a night 'qualification' prior to commencement of the modular IR(A) then the course is not being conducted in accordance with JAR-FCL 1 and no other member state is obliged to accept the rating thus gained. I think it more likely, Bellyfluffer, that you are confused over the distinction between night rating and night qualification and are, therefore, not asking the right questions.

It is dangerous to rely too heavily on LASORS, which is only the UK CAA's (mis)interpretation of JAR-FCL and is riddled with errors. It is always best to go to the source document.

[bellyfluffer]

Sorry B-B
you are quite right about it being a qualification, my mistake, its getting late and i have been looking at so many documents i made an error! Some countries/authorities refer to it as a rating, others like jar as a qualification as B-B says.
As for the issue of spain i have spoke to 6 fto's and all say that spain has no night qualification in their training so therefore couldnt give me one as it simply doesnt exist in spainish atpl training for either modular or int!?
Yet i know there are spanish atpl pilots working in the UK so surely the UK CAA accept this??
I agree that LASORS is at least controversial but the 'caa lady' insisted on simply reciting lines from it hence why i sound unimpressed with my dealing with them today (admitedly she may have just been having a bad day;) )

[Whopity]

The definitave document is JAR-FCL 1.190

An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.
Any FTO offering these courses has to have a Training Manual that clearly states the course pre-entry requirements!

[bellyfluffer]

"An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes."

'Maybe im too stupid to be a pilot after all because im having so many problems trying to read and understand this!' ;)

So does this mean that by stating 'applicant for an IR' you only have to have the night qualification at the time you send off your licence to have the IR issued?:confused:

[BillieBob]

You actually need to read on a little further in JAR-FCL 1. Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.205, which deals with the modular IR(A) course, states:

"An applicant for a modular IR(A) course shall be the holder of a PPL(A) or a CPL(A), either licence to include the privileges to fly by night, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. The Training Organisation shall ensure that the applicant for a multi-engine IR(A) course who has not held a multiengine aeroplane class or type rating has received the multi-engine training specified in JAR-FCL 1.261(b)(2) prior to commencing the [flight training for] IR(A) course."

This allows the holder of a non-JAA licence to undertake the IR(A) course prior to having a JAA licence issued. However, if you hold a JAA licence, the requirement for that licence to include the privilege to fly by night can only be fulfilled by the JAA night qualification. Therefore, no JAA FTO should accept you for training unless your PPL includes the privilege to fly by night and the CAA may well refuse to issue the rating unless you hold a JAA night qualification.

[pipergirl]

An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.

There is a vital word that has not been quoted which will clear the confusion up...
According to Lasors E1.2 it states-

An applicant for a Modular IR (A) COURSE shall be the holder of a PPL (A) or CPL(A), either licence to include the privileges to fly at night, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. In addition, applicants must hold a Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence

[bellyfluffer]

Yeah i can see that now and also why LASORS isn't quite the bible it is made out to be :rolleyes:

cheers to all who helped with this esp. B-B

For anyone who wishes to continue the challenge......

How does the spanish situation stand then, are they in breach of jaa/jar?

Also are there exacting regs that have to be followed for the night Q or would the 10hours of IR tution at night offered by one of the spanish schools qualify as the required training for the night qualification? Thus this being the way they cover/get around the issue of it being a jaa/jar requirement?

Look forward to any replies comments,
cheers again :ok:

[mad_jock]

Its in that same section E of Lasor's.

The difference maybe a notified difference to JAR for the Spanish.
Every country can opt out of certain bits they just have to publish a difference.

I am not suprised no one at the belgrano wants to put there kneck on the line with your case. The easy option for them is going to be to say no.

I suspect that as they use the IR as the only check where a CAA staff examiner gets their hands on you for a check and the CAA gets the money directly. They won't be in the mind set to give you any slack when it comes to you gaining a rating on a British license through a Spanish FTO and Spanish examiner.

This mix and matching of Licenses and ratings under JAR is great in theory but in practise it is very rare that it actually works smoothly, and I suspect the 2-3000 pounds you will save by doing it in a Spanish FTO will not be a saving in the long run. Even in the type rating examiner world there are all sorts of problems with British TRE's signing other member states licenses and the associated paper work trail.

[pipergirl]

This mix and matching of Licenses and ratings under JAR is great in theory but in practise it is very rare that it actually works smoothly

don't agree with that statement at all...a sweeping generisation I think

I know many people who are working who got JAR licences in the States and then did the IR in Europe...it all ran smoothly for them

[bellyfluffer]

Yeah M-J
I see what you mean about 'easy options' but to be honest the saving i can get by doing the me+ir in spain is rather more than £3000 and finances are tight now!:{

I do know of a couple of people that have had no problem or issue having their me+ir issued by the UK on return (see recent spain threads)

I do agree that in an ideal world i would prefer to do it all here in the UK but with the money and weather issues this is definately my better option

cheers again:ok:

[BillieBob]

How does the spanish situation stand then, are they in breach of jaa/jar?It is not possible to be 'in breach' of JARs as they are only Requirements and not Regulations. It is the case that the national law of most member states prevents that state from complying with one part or another of JARs, which is why the move to EASA regulation is seen by some as a step forward. The fact remains that if a member state does not conduct itself in accordance with JARs, the other states are not obliged to accept its training, licences, ratings and so on. That does not mean that the UK CAA will refuse to accept the training for an IR in Spain just because a night qualification is not a pre-requisite for the course - but it would be fully justified in refusing should it choose to do so.

I know many people who are working who got JAR licences in the States and then did the IR in EuropeApart from the fact that nobody 'got JAR licences in the States', this is hardly relevant to M-J's point. All JAA licence training in the US is approved by a JAA member state, which will issue the licence, just as though the training was done at a FTO within that state. However, there have been examples where certain states have refused to accept training completed in the US for type and instrument ratings and have refused to add the relevant ratings to their licences. The UK has a reputation for accepting almost anything in the way of training in other states but, even so, there are examples where they have refused to add ratings to UK issued JAA licences because the training has not been carried out in accordance with JAR-FCL.

[A330 Dreamer]

Morning All,

I am on the understanding that prior to c.p.l training you need:

150 hours total time
70 of which must be P-I-C
50 of those hours must be cross country

Does this mean 50 landaways or can it include local navigation exercises?

If I've got this understanding totally wrong can someone clarify for me.

Thanks:ugh:

[Deano777]

Hiya 330

my understanding is that you need this to actually start the course

150hrs total time
20hrs cross country, which I think means flights outside the ATZ
14 passes in the ATPL or CPL theory subjects.
For license issue you need 200hrs flight time, including 100 PIC, 10hrs instrument time, 5hrs night (obviously your night qual), have completed a 300nm cross country flight including 2 full stop landings at airfields other than your starting point
Have a class 1 medical
Have completed the 14 ATPL or the CPL theory subjects

Hope this helps, I'm sure people will add or correct anything, but for a definative list check LASORS

Rgds

Dean

[LFS]

Dean thats basically correct. The 70 hours pic that A330 talks about is only relevant if completing the CPL on a Multi as 70 hour pic is the minimum for a M/E rating.

[mbcxharm]

A cross country flight in the UK is one that goes more than 3nm from your departure aerodrome, so anything where you didn't remain in the circuit basically.

LASORS contains this definition.

[Keygrip]

A330 - you've been given answers to your questions - mind if I ask you one?

What gave you the understanding that you listed as pre-requisites for the course? Was it something you read - or something somebody told you?

[kissmysquirrel]

Suggest you download a 'free' copy of Lasors and read up. New one will be out soon too. I believe you can do the night rating as part of your CPL course so not required first.

[Deano777]

You need the Night Qual for license issue, not to start the CPL, you need the 300nm QXC to start

[Hour Builder]

you need the 300nm QXC to start

Where in Lasors does it state this?

[Bandit650]

I was under the assumption you can do the 300nm QXC as part of the CPL but would need to check...

[Mercenary Pilot]

Where in Lasors does it state this?It doesn't, QXC is for issue.

Experience
Flying completed on the course may be counted
towards meeting the flying experience requirements for
licence issue as detailed below.

An applicant for a JAR-FCL CPL(A) must have
completed a minimum of 200 hours of flight time,
including the particular requirements specified in a, b
and c below. These must be flown in aeroplanes
irrespective of any credits applicable under D1.2(D)
Notes below:-

a) i) 100 hours as Pilot-in-Command, or 70 hours
as Pilot-in-Command if completed during a
course of integrated flying training;

ii) 20 hours of VFR flight time as
Pilot-in-Command, including a cross-country
flight totalling at least 540 km (300 nm) in the
course of which full-stop landings at two
aerodromes different from the aerodromes of
departure shall be made.


b) 10 hours of instrument dual instruction time
(for applicants without an IR), of which not
more that 5 hours is to be instrument ground
time (in a FNPT I or II or a Flight Simulator).


c) 5 hours Night Flying comprising of at least 3
hours of dual instruction, including at least 1
hour of cross-country navigation, and 5 solo
take-offs and full-stop landings.

[Linda Mollison]

Lasors does say:

"Flying completed on the course may be counted towards meeting the flying experience requirements for licence issue as detailed below"

But:

The only PIC time you will get on the course will be the successful skill test so the QXC will have to be done outside the course (you need landings at two airfields other than the one of departure).

And Lasors says:

"An applicant who does not already hold a Night Qualification/Rating shall be given additionally at least 5 hours night flight instruction" so this will also have to be done outside the course.

The 10 hours dual instrument flying is part of the course.

Linda Mollison

[Hour Builder]

Lasors does say:
"Flying completed on the course may be counted towards meeting the flying experience requirements for licence issue as detailed below"
But:
The only PIC time you will get on the course will be the successful skill test so the QXC will have to be done outside the course (you need landings at two airfields other than the one of departure).
And Lasors says:
"An applicant who does not already hold a Night Qualification/Rating shall be given additionally at least 5 hours night flight instruction" so this will also have to be done outside the course.
The 10 hours dual instrument flying is part of the course.
Linda Mollison
Ok you are quoting Lasors but reading it wrong. The QXC says, "The only PIC time you will get on the course will be the successful skill test" there is nothing stoping somene hiring a plane and doing it mid-way through the course. This flight is not part of that CPL course (25 or 28 hr) so can count. If it says "The QXC must be done before the start of CPL course" then it must be done, it doesnt state that so its not required.
If the night rating is not held, then it is done as part of the CPL course, so the course changes from 25 to a 30 hour CPL course.
HB

[BlueRobin]

'1818, take a look and digest for yourself

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf

[Hour Builder]

there's some bedtime reading

[BlueRobin]

Many a weather-grounded student bores themself to death with it whilst waiting for better conditions. Either that or the POH :)

[Mercenary Pilot]

Many a weather-grounded student bores themself to death with it whilst waiting for better conditions. Either that or the POHAlways prefered FHM myself. ;)

Hour Builder

I think you mis-understand what Linda was saying. All the P/ut, instrument (and night if needed) hours done on the course count towards your TT for CPL issue.

However, there is NO PIC hours on the CPL course (its all done with an instructor) so the QXC must be done in your own time. If you do this half way through your CPL training then fine but it is "outside" the syllabus and not part of the course.

[Deano777]

Apologies if I got that wrong and mis-lead, I was told this by a "senior" before the commencement of my CPL so took it on face value :)

[Hour Builder]

To be honest, its not a bad idea to have it done before starting the course. Its also not a bad idea to have nearly the 100 hours PIC requirement too.

HB

[LightspeedS]

I was told by a flying school I need 300 hours after my PPL before the CPL is that correct?

[scroggs]

I take it you couldn't be bothered to look earlier in this thread?

What is the point of us organising and archiving previous questions and the answers if people don't even make the slightest effort to research the answer to their questions? Laziness is not a good quality in a pilot...

Scroggs

[Bandit650]

IMO thats a bit harsh Sroggs. You can loads of irrelevent off-topic information back from search engines and its often quicker and more incisive to post a direct question. This is primarily a forum after all not a search engine. Not to mention forum posts may be out of date and/or inaccurate.

LightSpeedS: Have a look at LASORS on the CAA website - its all in there.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591
(Section D1 page D/2)

[EIDW_PILOT]

Anyone know If you already have a night rating do the hours have to be broken down exactly as below, as a requirement for the CPL?


"5 hours Night Flying comprising of at least 3
hours of dual instruction, including at least 1
hour of cross-country navigation, and 5 solo
take-offs and full-stop landings."