National Jet Systems - Recruiting. [Archive]

Capn Bloggs

8th Dec 2006, 00:44

It really depends on what you define as a pay cut. If you classify a level of pay as a certain amount of spending power, then NJS pilots have been taking pay cuts for years. The current proposal will INCREASE the reduction of spending power. In pure numbers terms, it's a less of a pay rise. In spending terms, it's a bigger kick in the guts.

They're not recruiting, they're interviewing. Beware the contents of the poisoned chalice.

Bocs,
You raise an interesting point. How far should current employees go (if they can) to stop management introducing a B scale?

ITCZ

8th Dec 2006, 03:54

There is a considerable amount of discussion going on about this within NJS. Probably the reason that you have not heard three fifths of farkall about it is that NJS pilots know full well that whatever they talk about on here, some (or several) wankers will grab the wrong end of the stick, jump to all sorts of conclusions and end up by slanging off at managers, beancounters and worst of all other pilots.

The one thing that might be worth saying on Pprune, is this....

Any pilot currently considering a job offer for any of NJS 717, 146 or D8 should be made fully aware that they will most likely be offered a position on significantly less conditions than their colleagues.

Current base salary for 717 and 146 at NJS is around $125k for Captain and $75k for FO. There is no increment for years of service. One proposal has new pilots being offered $100k Captain and $60k FO. And they will have possibly signed up to pay for all or part of their type rating as well as a bond. And possibly be locked in to those conditions for 5 years as the market for experienced jet pilots strengthens.

Before anybody jumps in and says 'how can NJS pilots allow this?' the first thing you should know is they are damned unhappy about it. The second thing you should know is that their opinion or actions on this matter are probably completely irrelevent.

The "WorkChoices" legislation introduced by the current federal government allows any employer the ability to offer any terms and conditions they like to new employees or pilots changing classification.

So if you want to blame anybody for erosion of pilot conditions from here on, blame the Australians that voted in a majority Liberal senate.

Hawk777

8th Dec 2006, 04:30

ITCZ,

I think your right. Don't blame the existing Pilot's at NJS for something they don't have total control over.

It's the NEW pilots who accept this deal who are to blame. Unfortunately $60K as a jet F/O is still better than $45K as a Bras F/O so its going to be hard to say no and I would say there will be a few takers. The people who take this sort of deal are the ones using jobs like this as a stepping stone to a bigger Airline. Unfortunately, the ones who see NJS as a long term prospect are the ones who suffer.

Capn Bloggs

8th Dec 2006, 05:12

It's the NEW pilots who accept this deal who are to blame.
H777, that's unfair. What are people to do? Walk away from a career they love and the chance to fly a jet just because it is deemed to be too-underpaid by other people in the industry?

The real people to blame are the employers who are using our love of flying to their own ends by lowering conditions (in some cases to prop up their bureaucracies). The politics of envy plays a big part too. And John Howard's Workchoices doesn't make things any easier.

boocs

8th Dec 2006, 05:14

The rate quoted for new captains..... Does this mean f/o's who are promoted internally will be on less than a newly promoted Capt 6 months ago??

RENURPP

8th Dec 2006, 05:28

Does this mean f/o's who are promoted internally will be on less than a newly promoted Capt 6 months ago??
No, new employees.

ITCZ

8th Dec 2006, 09:25

Unfortunately $60K as a jet F/O is still better than $45K as a Bras F/O so its going to be hard to say no and I would say there will be a few takers.

I'll just take your point in another direction.... I may be wrong but NJS very rarely hired Bras FO's straight in to its jets.

In fact NJS have often been very lucky in whom they have working for them. A good number of ex-CASA FOI, plenty of ex-military folk from all services including QFIs and fast jet pilots, lots of 89ers with plenty of jet airline experience. Lots of former chief pilots, chief flying instructors, etc. From what I hear there are only three or four pilots out of the lot that did not at least hold a two crew turboprop command before finding themselves as a 146 or 717 FO. Like a lot of operators when they hire an FO they are hopefully hiring someone that they can promote to Captain one day. NJS certainly looked for people that had 'a little bit extra.' Not so much in terms of being hotshot pilots but pilots that can take on some of the extra challenges of flying the 146 or 717 into poorly supported locations, as against buzzing between capital city aerodromes with easy access to maintenance, catering, etc.

I reckon they will have trouble attracting the kind of people they are used to getting.

ITCZ

8th Dec 2006, 09:40

It's the NEW pilots who accept this deal who are to blame. ........The people who take this sort of deal are the ones using jobs like this as a stepping stone to a bigger Airline.
Stepping stone? More like a mill stone (http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/millstone+round+your+neck.html). The deal I heard has a newbie sacrificing $5000 a year for 3 years from the already lowered wage plus a return of service bond for 3 years.
Bloody hard to step on those stones with that hanging around your neck!

Whiskey Oscar Golf

8th Dec 2006, 10:22

Who is to blame for the continued drop in pay and conditions? Who did the initial 717 contract? Are they still in the position? Why did they lose the AAE contract? Is the renewal going to be tighter? If so who else could do it and for how much?

NJS has always had top class pilots and it's a shame they are not respected as such. I doubt it's management as opposed to a lean mean industry that keeps pushing for more service while not giving anything back. People can blame the young mob coming through for taking conditions that are worse than theirs but what else can they do?

illusion

8th Dec 2006, 10:43

ITCZ,
If you consider it a blessing to work under ex military pilot managers then you ain't been in NJS. This company is not what it was 8 years ago when KD and his WONDERFUL crew were running things.:ugh:

captain_cranky

8th Dec 2006, 10:46

RENURPP. :ok: on both posts.

ITCZ

8th Dec 2006, 10:57

If you consider it a blessing to work under ex military pilot managers then you ain't been in NJS.

Thankyou illusion for providing me with an example of how a Ppruner's mindset distorts what I am trying to say. I did not say a thing about management.

I said that NJS have always been able to recruit pilots with a lot of experience, quite often previous jet and RPT experience. They often picked up a lot of gold that had been discarded or overlooked by bigger companies with cumbersome recruitment processes. I think they are about to make themselves less competitive when it comes to attracting those sort of people in the future.

R.Cruizo

8th Dec 2006, 11:32

The point ITCZ and some of the other posts made on this thread are all quite valid. I doubt if any one disagrees that the proposed "B" scale for NJS is a further reduction in conditions or that job.

Whats even sadder is, whilst $ 60k a year for right seat of a 146 or B717 is crap, even for a new start. $57K for a Braz Captain or $ 37K for a braz F/O and do most of your own Baggage handling, refuelling, check-inn etc is even more crap. That is why the problem is self perpetuating with out leaving Australia. The NJS offer will still be attractive to some.

bushy

8th Dec 2006, 12:13

There will be hundreds knocking on their door. Mostly apprentices.

OZFURYFAN

8th Dec 2006, 15:32

But Wait,there's more!!Not only do flight crew & cabin crew have to pay for their training,now engineers are expected to as well.Any LAME joining will have to salary sacrifice 50% of the type course and also be bonded for 100% of all costs incl travel & accom for a period of years.It is a take it or leave it offer with the threat of 400+ redundancies if rejected!!Of course the sherriff of Nottageham has offered to take a 2% paycut as well but he doesn't know what his pay is yet.Over the last 2 years the good staff have been leaving in droves apart from the puppets who dance to the new tune.This drive is all about flogging the lower end whilst achieving a set profit margin and fixing a nice lil bonus for the top end& it SUX!!OZ

Whitney

8th Dec 2006, 20:58

sherriff of Nottageham has offered to take a 2% paycut um, I thought he was capping his rise at 2%, similar to what he has asked all the staff and managers to take.

Capping at 2% doesn't equal a 2% paycut.

I think it was said earlier, all new staff will be offered lower pay scales and bonding, right across all 4 business groups for endorsement/licence courses - this includes engineers, F/A's and observers, not just pilots it would be a first I believe?

It is all about preservation of the company as an entire going concern as some parts of the group are being overshadowed by others reference revenue earning. It doesn't particularly help when major clients are turning the screws and flexing their muscles either. Kind of holds the company to ransom. Reduce costs or not re-sign.

Sux really.

Cart_tart

8th Dec 2006, 23:35

So the "sherriff" only takes a pay rise of 2% for 2007. What about the next 4 years after that like the rest of the employees???
When are they going to stop taking? There comes a point where you all have to say NO! Who cares if it is supposedly for new employees only? It is setting the scene for the rest of the industry. When your AWA is up next what's to say that they're not just going to put you all on the same conditions as the new starts? It's time to stop thinking of now, and instead, thinking ahead for the future.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

8th Dec 2006, 23:37

I was thinking about the current NJS situation last night and had a few thoughts, always a dangerous thing when you're not that smart.

If I was a large airline expanding into a low cost carrier offshoot. How could I reduce pay and conditions for staff? One way would be to get the industry used to those conditions by tendering contracts that had slim profit margins, causing the sub contracter to implement reduced conditions in order to survive and make money. That way I would be a more appealing option when it came time for me to expand domestically, that is after I had finished my international expansion.No one would blame me and I could point to industry standards. All the while making record profits and telling everyone to tighten their belts.

A smart man once told me if you have a choice between a conspiracy and stupidity, run with stupidity. Pity I'm dumb huh.

We could blame the newbie pilots for this, the union, or the federal government, we could even blame the consumer for wanting cheap air travel but how do we fix it?

AerocatS2A

8th Dec 2006, 23:38

If you don't like a new AWA you can choose not to sign it in which case you remain on the old one.

cunninglinguist

9th Dec 2006, 00:30

Well I think you're all wrong............nah, not really. Some very well thought out informative posts, I even have to agree with most of bloggsies stuff, which is a bit scary :ugh:

I'd like to add something though.
I reckon Qf are just after the 717s being operated as efficiently as they were previously, and without computerised flight planning and RVSM just to name a couple of things, this is obviously not happening, and most of the blame lays fairly and squarely with BS castle ( CIA ).

Of course, the path of least resistance, as usual, is the employees.
So you guys pay for crap management :yuk:

3 Holer

9th Dec 2006, 00:52

If you don't like a new AWA you can choose not to sign it in which case you remain on the old one.

Until the Company have the "old one" cancelled by the Office of the Employment Advocate. Then you revert to the G.A. Pilot's Award 1999.

max autobrakes

9th Dec 2006, 12:59

Johnny Howards "Work-for-the-Dole/ WorkChoices" in action.:\

cunninglinguist

9th Dec 2006, 22:03

3, a couple of blokes have tried that theory out already, the outcome ( in the IRC ) was that they go back to the AWA they where originally on. They where both 71 effos, threatened with returning to the 146 and D8 respectively.
I believe one of them has seen the light and voted with his feet.

Therefore theoretically, the ones that signed the original 71 AWA, should stay on that.

Metro man

10th Dec 2006, 07:48

A$125 000 for a 717 Captain:yuk: I'm an F/O on similar equipment overseas and earn about 8% less before tax. After the NJS skipper has been milked by the ATO I come out well ahead, after only six months on type.

Time to start looking at the contracts on offer overseas, show you are determined to get paid what you're worth even if it means a move. The financial penalty of living and working in Oz has become too great to justify the lifestyle.

While there are so many pilots who will put up with such poor conditions just to stay home things will never improve.

RENURPP

10th Dec 2006, 08:04

Well thats good. We look forward to you not applying for a job back in Aus.

you obiously wouldn't like Alliance 104K or OZjet 130K or Virgin E190 127K.

The less of you who want our jobs living in this good, used to be great country the better off we are.
Market forces.

Metro man

10th Dec 2006, 09:08

Yeah, it's a difficult decision.

Stay where I am clearing A$100 000/ year flying brand new aircraft with upgrade and a 50% payrise in another year or two.

Come back to Oz, to the right hand seat, A$70 000/year before tax. IF I can get a job.

Sometimes the grass really is greener on the other side.;)

Only worth flying in Oz now if you're a QF mainline Captain, and for how much longer with Dixons plans ?

AerocatS2A

10th Dec 2006, 09:09

Until the Company have the "old one" cancelled by the Office of the Employment Advocate. Then you revert to the G.A. Pilot's Award 1999.
There's a bit involved in getting an old AWA canceled I believe. Enough time to go get another job anyway. In our company we have a group of employees on an old AWA, company doesn't seem to care.

RENURPP

10th Dec 2006, 09:47

:) Things are not good but, if I wanted to work o/s I would.
I don't so I am happy with my lot, I just don't want it to get worse.
If it does I may consider a job earning $A100k before tax, and living some where I don't want to be.
Until then you enjoy your self over there and we will enjoy ourselves over here.

Cheers

Metro man

10th Dec 2006, 11:13

Sport, if you can live in Darwin, you can certainly manage most Asian cities. Why not get paid what you are worth considering your level of skill and responsibility, not to mention the considerable cost of your training ?

If you are happy on the sort of money most people working semi skilled jobs on the mines take for granted good for you.

Conditions in Australia are heading downwards, driven by oversupply of pilots willing to accept anything just to be home, and I can't see that changing anytime soon. "Of course I will work for $400/week, live in a donga, wash the aircraft and pay for my own endorsement, just give me a job."

Life here is great, if you can accept the differences.;)

RENURPP

10th Dec 2006, 11:46

I grossed 155K last year, I am happy enough with that.
I do not have to pay for any training, and happy about that.
I have absolutely no intention of moving to any Asian city, and extremely happy about that.

Your welcome to live where you want and I am happy about that.

Money isn't everything old mate.

BUT

if they drive conditions down, then I won't be happy, niether will my colleagues, and we may move, hopefully not to an Asian city but who knows.

Icarus2001

11th Dec 2006, 00:30

Interesting that feedback indicates that they are asking all interviewees what their salary expectation is. Feeling for the bottom.

RENURPP

11th Dec 2006, 00:38

Be even more interesting to hear their response?:ooh:

Vegas-C650

11th Dec 2006, 00:41

Hi guys

New to the website and are just wondering what you would recommend some one who want to move back home (Sweden, EU) to do as far as getting a good job. Right now sitting on 5000hrs, 1500 jet (C650)

Capn Bloggs

11th Dec 2006, 08:42

they are asking all interviewees what their salary expectation is. Feeling for the bottom.
That really is disgusting.

AerocatS2A

11th Dec 2006, 09:14

That really is disgusting.

Maybe. However, since they've already decided what they will be paying new hires, perhaps they are genuinely interested in finding out how close or far off expectations they are.

I think they are some way off the mark and am no longer interested in working for them.

cunninglinguist

11th Dec 2006, 22:33

Can just imagine a newbie at the interview being offered a jet job and a 100% increase in pay ( on what he's used to ) saying " well actually, thats a bit less than I'd hoped for and I think you are lowering industry standards " ...............yeh right, wot a crock of 5hit.
All that will serve is to give the CIA a warm fuzzy feeling.:yuk:

Chimbu chuckles

12th Dec 2006, 02:51

I have seen the documentation and the bottom line is the QF are being blamed by NJS/Cobham for a requirement to;

a/. introduce a B scale. It is even referred to as such in the paperwork, and
b/. Introduce pay for play and bonding to new and current employees...across the board not just pilots,

in exchange for 5 years of relative stability in T&Cs, profit sharing and payrises every year not dependant on CPI...what that means is that the pay rises won't be better than CPI so in real terms the wage increases will be be more like pay cuts in real terms...i.e you will be less well off as each year rolls around. I would bet folding money the profit sharing won't be sufficient to offset the reduction in inflation corrected after tax $ over time.

Now I am not against requiring new employees to be type rated before employement...we would all prefer otherwise but realistically it is not THAT draconian a requirement.

Requiring current employees to pay for their training in any way shape or form for subsequent types the company chooses to employ in the course of their operations is an obscenity...bond yes but pay to play and bonding is just taking the piss.

They make a feeble suggestion that worries about a C scale in 5 years are unfounded...on what basis...GD's kind heartedness?

This is the second time they have gone to the pilots in this manner in the last few years...and the pilots are still expected to not consider another bite at the cherry being taken in 5 yrs time?

I think that would be an unrealistic expectation on the part of Cobhams.

If a business model requires such subsidisation from it's employees perhaps the business model is a bad one.:ugh:

cunninglinguist

13th Dec 2006, 00:06

Of course CIA are blaming QF, because they are one of the most pathetic management ( or mis management ) teams you will ever come across.

The QFlink contract has always been run inefficiently dating back to Uncle Wazza's day when NJS used to get paid by the minute and QF paid for the fuel, and the 146s ran around at .62, pilots would even choke the thing back to .56 so as not to get in early and make money for Wazza.
Well, guess what, I never believed that screwing the client was a very good idea and now it's coming home to roost.

As I've said before, I will bet you London to a brick that QF have looked at the operating cost and reliability of the 717 over the past 18mths and have decided that if NJS cant do it properly, then QF will not be paying for it.

Of course, the only way the CIA know how to make money is to screw the people that make the money for them :ugh: :yuk:

Whiskey Oscar Golf

13th Dec 2006, 03:07

The CIA are blaming QF coz they have to, anything else looks like failure. If I was sitting in that ivory tower I'd be blaming everything including the WX. They lost control long ago and they have to squeeze staff coz there's nothing else to squeeze. This is about survival, look at why the poms grabbed NJS. Was it for QLink? Or some other large contract that was due for tender? What is Cobhams core business, not RPT I'm fairly sure? I just hope NJS don't die a slow death but get stronger with time. That is with more 146 contracts and winning the 717's without the constant threat of if you don't you're gone. Good luck people.

Pete Conrad

13th Dec 2006, 03:24

Of course, the only way the CIA know how to make money is to screw the people that make the money for them......nice quote cunninglinguist, bit hypocritical of you though considering you work for Jetstar! Bet you slept easy the night after you voted to undercut Qantas mainline by 40%?

cunninglinguist

13th Dec 2006, 04:20

I did'nt vote on anything Pete, and your incessant fixation with Jet* and your ability to introduce it to just about any thread borders on insanity.
( by the way, nice effort on one of the other threads, you made it to second place....the first loser :hmm: )

My interest In NJS ( before you ask ) is that I did 13 long years with them and still have alot of mates there, and don't like seeing the CIA screwing those mates ( and the others ) constantly because of their poor management.

Why you are so insanely jealous about Jet* is anyones guess, I assume they knocked you back and now you are really p'd, well thank christ they did.
Goes to show the Jet* interview process really does work :D

Oh and BTW, nobody voted to undercut QF by 40%, they voted to undercut some contract company that, no doubt, GD and AJ would have used.

Ethel the Aardvark

13th Dec 2006, 05:19

I hate to break up a good bitch fight but can anyone report on the njs maint at perth, I understand some engineers have taken voluntary redundancy and a few more have resigned, I guess its all heading for the engineerless tarmac literally. when does HD leave and how long before contracts start to follow him?

RENURPP

13th Dec 2006, 05:38

Re this comment of yours
your incessant fixation with Jet*
its a case of glass houses.

I tend to agree with some of your comments, yet you have this incessant fixation on anything WA, particularly NJS.
I know where it comes from, you may be right!!! but you do work for Jetstar and they are easily the most despised pilot group in Australia at the moment, rightly or wrongly.
Its a bit out there, for a Jetstar pilot to bag other organisations all day and then be offended by the same in return?

Don't mean to start a slanging match, but I have to adderss a comment you made earlier, regarding efficiency etc.

NJS has cleaned its efficiency act up recently, apart from RVSM, its pretty smooth running.(thanks to the crews and engineers, NOT management) Our on time departures are better than Jetstar ever achieved. Sorry if that offends.

Pete Conrad

13th Dec 2006, 19:20

Never applied to J* linguist so shot down there. Never wanted to fly for them. Shot down there again.....whats your fixation with NJS? As RENURPP suggested, your all fine and dandy till someone gives you a home truth, then you squeal like a stuck pig.

Forgive me linguist, I forget all the good work that J* has done for the industry...Bwaaa haaa haa.

cunninglinguist

13th Dec 2006, 21:56

You blokes really fly aeroplanes ?? coz you are as thick as 2 short planks, end on end

QUOTE:
My interest In NJS ( before you ask ) is that I did 13 long years with them and still have alot of mates there, and don't like seeing the CIA screwing those mates ( and the others ) constantly because of their poor management.

I've showed you mine, now you show me yours, what's your fixation with Jet* ? I am now 100% convinced they knocked both of you back, evidenced by the fact that most of the NJS DRW skippers had a go at getting in after they saw the difference between the operations. ( yes, I know you will deny that till you're blue in the face )

Yes I am offended RENBURRP, because you are having a go at the Jet* pilots not the common enemy.....management, I don't believe I have ever bagged the NJS pilot group as such, even though you are on the worst pay and conditions in Oz ( RPT Jet ) and about to have them reduced even further: 2% payrise a year=1.5% paycut, pay for your own upgrade on same type, B scale for newbies....yep, what a wonderful outfit.
( just remember you were always around 6K less than Jet* for flying the same A/C and you paid 15k for your training which you may/may not get back, and no staff travel, 2 hours extra before O/T kicks in, 1k pay cut in year 1 )
You undercut the " most despised pilot group in Australia " what does that make you ??

Where do you get your info from?? you've gone from just over 80% on time performance to over 95% in 6 months have you? complete bull:mad: ( although, most of you have proabably worked out the release the park brake thing to give false on time departures, similar to calling 10 minutes late, on time in the 146 )
and I was'nt actually referring to on-time performance anyway, what are your ASKs or RPKs, you, or anyone else there, would'nt have a clue. ( was the Jet* engineer that went to Darwin to help fix your woeful dispatch reliability problem a figment of everybody's imagination )

" Apart from RVSM "................ and the fact that most of you carry tons of fuel everywhere for no reason other than lack of good flight planning ( have the flight files got anywhere near the correct burns on them yet ?? ) .

You see Burrrp, I know everything about your crappy little GA outfit coz I was there ( probably longer than you ) and you know nothing about mine other than the %85 bull5hit you read here.

In 2 years time ren, I'll return and we'll compare pay and conditions, how does that sound ?? ( 10 years would be alot more interesting )

and Pete, relax, take a chill pill, keep going to therapy and taking the tablets, and re-apply in 3 years, I might even put in a good word for you and Ren :ok:

Over and Out

Pete Conrad

13th Dec 2006, 23:59

I have a good job flying linguist, I don't feel it necessary to sell my soul to the devil and become one of many expendable pilots flying for the splodgestar, but thanks for the offer...seeing you failed QF stage one, I'm happy to throw a reciprocal word in for you however, what do ya reckon?

Black Hand Magic

14th Dec 2006, 12:23

It's so simple it hurts.......
Don't accept less conditions!

We fight ourselves by taking clearly obvious reduced pay and conditions just 'to get the job' or the 'foot in the door'!!???

Then we wonder why we chose this career!

If we want to fly for nicks get a real job in another sector and join a parachute club!

At this rate in five years we'll be signing 10 year bonds to pay for our type course- bloody clever A.

Avaition is not a priveledge...it's a business that we are eroding the conditions of disprortinately to the cost of training in and the responsibility the job holds.

Go drive busses if you just want to take what's given, your easily replaceable then.

The Voice

14th Dec 2006, 18:58

Black Hand Magic, so you're in the position of having to choose whether to sign a new AWA with a mechanism that will affect not only yourself or new starts?

Again, it is a hell of a situation for all employees of Cobham to be in - keep a job by accepting a small increase and acknowledging that there will be changes to future staff $'s or don't sign, maintain present conditions while actively seek something else which ultimately may not be offered.

Yes, it is an easy decision isn't it ..

theheadmaster

14th Dec 2006, 20:06

Actually, the decision should be easy, it is the course of action that is not. Accepting the introduction of a “B” scale will ALWAYS end up biting you in the arse. By saying it is alright to pay new hires a reduced pay rate to do the same job you are, in effect, telling management that you are overpaid and they will then attempt to reduce your wage to the lower level. NJS are known to be the lowest paid jet pilots in the country, who are you competing against by accepting yet lower wages?

If my memory is correct, this is the second time in recent times that the management of NJS have asked pilots to effectively take a reduction in pay and conditions. My friends it is quite simple. Management are going to continue to ask you to reduce your remuneration until you have the strength to say NO. You can say no now and keep the conditions you now enjoy, or you can wait. Eventually you are going to get to the point where you have to say NO, you may as well make that point now and keep what you have. Remember, you don't have to reduce your pay to compete with anyone.

As BHM said, it is so simple it hurts, but then again as a group pilots amaze me at how stupid they are.

727ace

14th Dec 2006, 20:58

i do believe PER is suffering from VR with its engineers but also are led to believe MEL has lost nearly all of its "experienced" B727 engineers on nightshift add to that the shortage of flightcrew. seems the CIA really dont have any idea when it comes to the grass roots of why contracts are lost!!!!

RENURPP

14th Dec 2006, 22:05

back to school for you.
NJS are known to be the lowest paid jet pilots in the country

Try Alliance
$104K v $127K
NJS pilots will vote as NJS pilots wish, not influenced bypressure from outside influences.

theheadmaster

15th Dec 2006, 01:33

Thank you ppruner, I am happy to be corrected when I am in error. So, NJS pilots are not the lowest paid jet pilots in the country. I would still like to reaffirm my position, however, that as a group NJS pilots will paid according to the strength of their will. The company will continue to try to reduce labour costs. If workers accept a reduction of conditions the company will continue to ask for these reductions until the workforce determine they have had enough and decide they will act. My point is that at some stage the workers will have to say “no”, so they may as well take that stand now. To not do it now is simply procrastinating hoping that the company is going to magically change its cost cutting agenda.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say in your statement:

“NJS pilots will vote as NJS pilots wish, not influenced by pressure from outside influences on here, who's main concern is that they may be placed in a similar position and not have the stomach to fight themselves.”

Sure they will vote as they wish, but I hope that they show a little less naivety than they exhibited when they were last asked to accept a lowering of conditions. I speak regularly to several NJS pilots and I know that many now realise that they were hoodwinked by management at the the last vote. I hope that as a group the NJS pilot body has learned a lesson from it.

As to the second half of the statement, I am not sure if you are referring to me in particular or not. I do not have any misconception that NJS showing some industrial fortitude is going to change the conditions for all pilots in this country. What is required is that all groups of pilots realise that they have a set of skills that are required for the safe, efficient and profitable running of an airline. Without those skills the airline would not function. I would like all pilots to be confident that if they have the will to act collectively they have considerable ability to control their own future.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

15th Dec 2006, 02:16

What happens from here, current NJS pilots say no to new conditions. That won't matter if the new guys/gals do, awa's are INDIVIDUAL contracts. That may very well be what this is about, as someone hinted at earlier. If you don't suck it in we have 40 others ready to come on down.

You could go to J*, how many others have? Where did the 146 people go from feb. Then you would be bagged for undercutting mainline QF win/win eh. Most of the mob want to stay in NJS and like their jobs. The problem is they are getting squeezed like everyone else.

This reduction in T&C's seems to be an industry wide agenda. Is it an economic reality as people are saying? Or is it a concerted effort by a small number of companies to reduce wages making them look proper flash while not respecting the ability of Australian pilots. It's like a competition to see who can get away with the most.

Dog1

17th Dec 2006, 06:45

REN,

Try Alliance
$104K v $127KI have seen an income comparison done on excell which compares the Alliance and NJS T&C's including overtime. It shows that while Alliance have a smaller salary, from around 65 hours upwards, the overtime conditions dictate that a NJS pilot (most of whom are working over 70 hours/month), has a smaller monthly pay packet than if they were on Alliance conditions.

That fact should back up that...
NJS are known to be the lowest paid jet pilots in the country... at least for the workload they are currently flying.

BPA

17th Dec 2006, 11:42

I think you will find pilots flying for Our Airline (B737) are the lowest paid jet pilots in Australia. FO's start on $59000, plus pay for their type rating, no pay for working on RDO's and no overtime allowance.

Next in line would be those pilots flying for Air Pacific, but employed by a contract company. Captains are paid $500(NZ) and FO's $350(NZ) per day.

But with NJS's 'B' scale, it will make them the lowest paid jet pilots in Australia

No worries mate

17th Dec 2006, 13:10

Lower wages is the least of NJS pilot’s concerns. Qantas are currently reviewing the B717 ops and are due to make a decision within the next 6 months regarding their future. It’s no secret, Qantas are not happy with the performance of the B717 and the article in the NT news a few weeks back didn’t help.

We may even see the F100 in Qantas colours, supplied by Skywest or Alliance.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/search/photo_search.php?id=00006301

The F100 looks good in these colours.

AerocatS2A

17th Dec 2006, 13:15

No Worries, the whole reason NJS is cutting back on pay is so they can keep the B717 contract, the wage cost is apparently a very high percentage of the B717 contract expenses. The issues are closely tied together.

dodgybrothers

17th Dec 2006, 13:38

The QFlink contract will be finalised in 6 weeks not 6 months. The 717s are definetely here for a while yet possibly 10 years. The question is who? Well it will be NJS unless their cost base far exceeds what QF can do it for themselves. There is a growing trend (see EFA) that with new IR laws that QF can do it and avoid the middle man, however in this case NJS are still the best option. As for the F100, similar cost base of the 717 but 20% less capacity. The hunge also experiences difficulties because of Fokker's non-existance and a third party now operates spares and performance.

It is true that the B717 has experienced some problems, but I have not seen an aircraft yet that can avoid breakdowns. As for the performance lims, during peak times, ie winter months the aircraft is not limited and performs well.

No worries mate

17th Dec 2006, 14:07

I’ve also heard that if the B717’s stay, they could return to Jetstar, but like NJS’s, there will be a ‘B’ scale wage.

cunninglinguist

17th Dec 2006, 21:37

Could'nt be further off the mark Aerocat.

Based on drivers doing 800 hrs a year, tech crew cost is 250 bucks an hour, on an A/C that is probably in the region of 5-5500 an hour to operate.
To give the crew a 10K payrise would cost 12.50 an hour.
Yet the CIA are happy for the A/C to fly around 3-5000' below optimum costing 150kg of fuel per hour.

You are CIA material for sure:yuk:

AerocatS2A

17th Dec 2006, 22:18

Well I did say "apparently". My source of information is the travelling NJS roadshow, whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. They make no such claims about other areas of the organisation that are not performing.

cunninglinguist

17th Dec 2006, 23:55

Sorry, you did say " apparently ", cat.
Beware of greeks bearing gifts or CIA sprouting constant BS :yuk:

dodgybrothers

18th Dec 2006, 00:34

Last time I checked Boeing were still operating......yep checked again, still going. They will support their product along with the few thousand diesel 9s and MD series that still operate. Rekkof or stork on the other hand can pull the rug whenever they like! As for the Jetstar B scale you talk about, their agreement has provisions for two types, widebody and narrowbody, end of story.

RENURPP

18th Dec 2006, 01:01

Alliance have to fly in excess of 73 hrs per month, every month, to attain the same base $ value.
I don't think they go close to that at the moment.
Base salary and O/T are two items that make up T&C's.
Consider annual leave, sick leave entitlements, called in on days off, meal allowances, super annuation, there is more to an employment package then base salary.

Not many NJS pilots are complaining about their current T&C's its the attempt to reduce them that is creating friction.

R.Cruizo

18th Dec 2006, 23:03

Hi Guys,
Any one had any feed back from the recent round of interviews? I heard there was a 146 course for January plus a hold file.

RENURPP

18th Dec 2006, 23:31

Give it a couple of days. All will be revealed one way or tother.

R.Cruizo

20th Dec 2006, 10:51

Yep, your right Sydneyman. A "B" payscale is pretty crappy. But don't point the finger at the masses too much, they're probably on the "E" and "F" payscale/ conditions in GA Turbo-prop!

Ramrod

21st Dec 2006, 13:48

Anyone know why there was an Alliance Fokker parked at the Qantas domestic terminal in Perth today?

What's with the skid marks on runway 21 at Perth? Either they were about to run out of runway whilst landing on 03 or they landed a long way of the centreline on 21 with some very heavy braking.

Capn Bloggs

21st Dec 2006, 21:49

there was an Alliance Fokker parked at the Qantas domestic terminal in Perth today
It did PH-KG-PH chartered to QF. Dunno if the super hairdryers were all busted or whether it as a special. It looked like a kiddy car parked in amoungst the real jets...:} Those modded speys put out such a loud squeal: very annoying.

What's with the skid marks on runway 21 at Perth?
That's the Alliance drivers coming to grips with the 35kt crosswinds from the hills...:ok:

Green gorilla

27th Dec 2006, 10:14

Talking about b scale i made 80 grand flying a king air i would take less as an FO with NJ if i could get to the city.

Brasilian Bird

28th Dec 2006, 06:47

It did PH-KG-PH chartered to QF

Anything to do with the other KG flight canx earlier this week?

Apparently the (big) blue and yellow mob have been doing charters themselves; believe they nicked a blue Fokker the other week because they'd used theirs on charter, and needed another for RPT...?

The southern apron sure is looking crowded these days, however you put it!!

BB

Icarus2001

4th Jan 2007, 02:27

Well Capn Bloggs, you said...
They're not recruiting, they're interviewing. Beware the contents of the poisoned chalice.

I know of at least five who have been recruited in the last two weeks. Yes, on a B scale, pay for endorsement via salary sacrifice and salary about 80% of current FO salary.
Happy Days.

R.Cruizo

4th Jan 2007, 10:54

Apparently most guys interviewed in the 1st week got a gig. 2nd & 3rd week still not advised although probably a hold file for some.

Definetly a "B" scale but salary sacrifice not as much as 1st thought, (B717).

Anybody heard/know of more?

RC

AerocatS2A

4th Jan 2007, 11:01

The original plan was to salary sacrifice half the endorsement over one year. But there's been further discussion since then, maybe they changed it.

Icarus2001

10th Jan 2007, 09:14

Three more that I know of going to NJS. Around $61K first year although I believe the AWA is not approved as yet.
BAE146 endorsement around $7500 which is salary sacrificed over three years AND a bond.

Bendo

10th Jan 2007, 11:06

What sort of experience did these guys have?

Capt Claret

10th Jan 2007, 11:44

Icarus2001

As I understand it, under little jonny's work choices, employers are delegated to approve their own AWA. I have also been told that the AWA that is lodged with the OEA is not necessarily the AWA that the employee signed. Of course, this loop hole wouldn't be abused by any employer!

$7.5 is a cheap endorsement, about 1/4 the actual price I'd guess.

Bendo

Not sure what the latest recruitment policies are but historically some people have been employed with just CPL, most though with an ATP. Some have some twin time, others have had much turbine time. It hasn't been unknown to train a pilot who is leaping from single pilot piston IFR to his/her first multi crew/turbine/jet experience.

R.Cruizo

11th Jan 2007, 01:58

Whats the general consensus on the time between interview and news( ie Job offer, hold file or "No thanks have a nice life" letter).

I know two guys interviewed in the 1st week who have course dates ( B717). Have not heard of anyone else from 2nd or 3rd weeks getting any news yet.

RC

nig&nog

11th Jan 2007, 04:43

Cruzio

A friend had his interview and two days later was offered job on 146. So I suppose anytime from two days to three weeks. Have any of the new recruits been given an AWA to sign yet and if so have they shown it to one of their mates at NJS to compare the actual conditions. Am interested to find out.

Nig not nog:)

Bug Smasher Smasher

12th Jan 2007, 10:28

8(?) newbies start the 146 course on monday. Coming from far and wide across our wide brown land.

Guessing the AWA will be the first order of the day's business. Will be very interesting reading.

Better bring some tissues guys and girls. Still it'll be better than a GA contract won't it?

Sure, but it's not GA! :yuk:

"This country's STUFFED!"
Darryl Kerrigan :ok:

RENURPP

12th Jan 2007, 10:33

should be 65,500 or more, $7500 for endorsment then everything else as per current employees.

ITCZ

12th Jan 2007, 10:49

Its $15,000 part payment of endorsement cost. Salary sacrifice $7500 each year for first two years.

Average Australian wage is now $1,053 per week, or $54,000 per annum. (Based on ABS data in Average Weekly Ordinary Time Earnings (http://employer.pss-css.gov.au/pages/awote_table.htm) table).

NJS proposal $61k - $7.5k = $53,500.

boocs

12th Jan 2007, 17:32

enurpp,

Should it be anything?? Why should you have to pay for the endorsement/salary sacrifice or otherwise?

Yes, yes I know this eternal argument but at the end of the day why should one have to pay??

Out of interest did you pay for your endorsement at NJS?

b.

RENURPP

12th Jan 2007, 21:15

What are you on?:rolleyes:
Where did I suggest you should pay?
I suggested some figures that have been given to me that appear to be incorrect. (maybe)
I don't believe you should have to pay and no I didn't pay for mine.

R.Cruizo

12th Jan 2007, 23:20

A collegue from my company recently got a start on the B717. No AWA yet, just an outline of conditions.

He mentioned $ 57k a year AFTER salary sacrifice. ( That still being $ 7500)

That would make RENURPP's figures basically correct!

I have not heard yet the 146 conditions, slightly less I believe but all apparently still being finalised.

RC

Trevor the lover

13th Jan 2007, 15:20

This feral disgusting joke of a company started the slide of jet pilot T&Cs in Oz, and they're at it yet again.

The clowns running that show are clueless, delusional gits. But I must say any bonehaed that takes this job now, on this pay, AND pays for an endorsement on an obsolete jet, AND takes a bond, is doing the biggest disservice imaginable to aviation in Australia. But I'm sure within the next two or three posts there'll be yet another idiot asking for more info on the job so as they can stick their grubby hands up as well.

Thank God I was able to move on from the nightmare that was my NJS experience

Kelly Slater

14th Jan 2007, 23:36

Don't hold back Trevor, say what you really think.

MMSOBGYTAST

15th Jan 2007, 05:10

G'day Trevor,

Mate, I agree with your sentiments exactly. It is SOOOOOOOO good to be working at a real airline now, not a two bit GA outfit.

Like you say, pilots will come and and NJS will milk it for all they can.

"John you are Delusional mate, Delusional!" (said with hands on head)

Love that quote from a mutual buddy.

MMSOBGYTAST

BAE146

15th Jan 2007, 07:36

NJS is GA because they never had any airline people running the show. Army, Navy and Airforce - what chance to establish anything resembling an airline.
Having said that - they are probably the best GA outfit in Oz - but that is all you're going to get - a job with the best GA outfit around.

Yep, Skywest & Alliance - compared to NJS - you are both in the Airline category.

cunninglinguist

15th Jan 2007, 08:57

Bluddy Favouritism :ugh:

I make a post like any of the above and its " youre so bitter and twisted " and " get over it " etc :{

Well said boys :D :ok: :E , especially you Bae146.

Just curious about Uuuuuurps rebly to boocs............ is not forking out 15k for training ( regardless of wether or not you MIGHT get it back ) paying for an endorsement ???
Since only 3 guys did'nt sign AWA and 2 of those resigned and the other one did'nt live in DN, what gives :confused:

Trevor the lover

16th Jan 2007, 12:02

Trev would just like to add - No offence intended at some of the best dudes flying in OZ right now with NJS. Capt Bloggs, Claret, Dog and all the other switched on dudes there. A truly great bunch.

The most often quoted saying in NJS - best job I ever had, worst company I ever worked for.

Mustard - keep the anonymity mate, shouldn't mention delusional John's name on the forum, keep it at "Boots" mate. And also Mustard - just remember, what you are flying now, the mighty hairdryer would need 24 engines to have the same thrust as you have now.

I also think that for NJS maybe it is not so much about screwing people now as a struggle for survival as Alliance, Syairworld et al gain momentum.

RENURPP

16th Jan 2007, 22:21

Sorry Cunning, my comment was misleading. I did/am paying for my 717 endorsement, how ever expect to get it back. my mistake.

Mr.Buzzy

17th Jan 2007, 04:03

Trevor,
Agreed 100%
Happiest day of my life leaving that circus.
Lured in with huge promises of rescue from GA type pay and conditions only to witness daily displays that would make even the slimiest GA boss squirm!
The only difference between a GA shafting and a NJ shafting was I got to wear a hat to the show!

The most often quoted saying in NJS - best job I ever had, worst company I ever worked for.
Agreed 100% as well!

I certainly hold any long term employee of that circus in the highest regard. A true strong character needed to keep focused.

Sorry to vent people but that was good for me!

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz

Capt Claret

17th Jan 2007, 06:42

Well a former colleague popped his head in the other day. He obviously wanted to see a state of the art flight deck. :E He was reborn some years ago and when I asked him how it was, his reply in essence was, "same sh!t, different paddock". Other born again friends have suggested that the grass didn't stay green for too long.

Now I'm not saying there's no room for improvement where I am. But, it is my perception that no pilot body is all that happy these days, even QFers have been heard to grumble about their lot.

One of the reasons we're all farked, is that so many take delight in denigrating so many others. I've got the job I've got. It pays the bills and allows me to live where I want to live. Why do I have to listen to or read tosh from people who neither know or care about my circumstances, on how I should carry out my work life????? :cool:

Not every one can work for the best, and the best went out of business in '93 SPRA! :ok:

Trevor the lover, you weren't prone to sending well lubricated late night SMS were you?

sprucegoose

17th Jan 2007, 08:17

I agree, best job I ever had too. The company wasn't to bad for much of it but the empire builders and insoluble personalities down south eroded much of that. Sad really because I used to pop out of bed at 0430, arrive at the hangar at 0515 depart at 0630 arrive CNS at 1030. Sign on was not until the NEXT evening at 1730. Christ it was almost a gulit trip to be paid $105,000 (in those days) to do 3.3 hours block time and then have a spa in my room before going for a run or swim then do lunch and have a rest before dinner and a piss up of biblical proportions accompanied by the odd nightclub/pub eviction, sleep it off, have breakfast, chat with a flight attendant or two by the pool, go for another swim or go shopping, have a nap and then go 3.3 hours back home again into days off. Yep it was a great job, best one in the airline industry in my opinion. The company was another matter altogether.

illusion

17th Jan 2007, 09:38

Claret,
You sound like a company man to me. Hope you don't represent your pilots to management. Judging by rumoured NJS management behaviour of late your tongue might catch something...............:mad:

Capt Claret

17th Jan 2007, 10:26

Illusion, what would you like me to do? Run around at F160 and up the fuel burn? Put so much on that we have to off-load pax? Sit here and bag the **** out of them along with the majority? :bored:

cunninglinguist

17th Jan 2007, 20:36

Clarrie, you wanna listen to people bagging your company, try working for Pornstar :{ :ugh: :rolleyes: I'm actually thinking of suggesting a name change to the powers that be at PPRUNE, maybe " Jetstar haters website ", still, they reckon jealousy is a curse :\

Your former colleague more than likely left before things really started turning to :mad: ( and could well be a long term VB effo ? ) , I agree that every outfit including QF have there problems, its just that IMHO NJS have more than their fare share, and I have worked for more than one jet operator.
PS. Believe me, its nice to have realtive job security....................and staff travel ;)

Urrp, apology accepted :E

Pete Conrad

17th Jan 2007, 21:59

Is that what they teach you on day one at Pornstar groundschool linguist???

" Hi everone, welcome to Pornstar, known for it's great morale, fantastic flying, great in-flight service and high morals when it comes to pilot representation...oh above all else, those that don't work here are really jealous of your position"............ Bwaaa haaa haaa ROFLMAO!!!!

I can assure you linguist..those of us that have jet jobs elsewhere are certainly not jealous of you....however, you keep that dream alive now you hear.....

cunninglinguist

18th Jan 2007, 04:00

Pete, crawl back under the rock in whatever O/S :mad: hole you live in and let us people living and working in the greatest country in the world ( a place your sorry bitter twisted ar5e will probably never work again ) get on with it.
:ok:
I'll just bet you are one of those types the airlines had the dispute for in the first place, so they could weed out all the :mad: :ok:

RENURPP

18th Jan 2007, 06:19

I have to agree pretty much with Clarie. Who is that happy with their lot that they don't complain?

Cunning, most of what you say I agree with 100%, what I get sick of is hearing it over and over again, since you used to kick cows in fact.
We know NJS management are F%&^*g useless, we also know Jetstar are not much better, if at all.
The biggest difference being Jetstar have QF's resources to use, NJS have next to none.

There is a good chance the pilot Clarrie speaks of trained you.
He is not a junior F/O with Virgin, quite the opposite and I suspect you would hold him in very high regard as most if not all NJS's do.
He was lucky enough to have left before the Admiral and his mob took over, how ever their (the admiral etc) life span in management is finite like every one elses, infact the admirals may be drawing to a close as we speak and not just his management position!
Hope the rest follow soon after.

Being a bit deceptive with this comment aren't we? I have worked for more than one jet operator.
A metro Captain for a night freight operator I believe?

AerocatS2A

18th Jan 2007, 07:23

Pete, crawl back under the rock in whatever O/S :mad: hole you live in and let us people living and working in the greatest country in the world...
I thought you lived and worked in Australia ;)?

Pete Conrad

18th Jan 2007, 19:44

Hey linguist.....bwaaa haaaa haaaa haaaaa haaaa haaa!!!!...truth hurt buddy?...Bwaaaa haaaa haaaa....heee heee heee!!!

boocs

19th Jan 2007, 03:10

Hello Clarrie,

I know to whom you are referring and it's not Trev the Lover.

b.

Kransky

19th Jan 2007, 23:08

I heard that three more captains resigned from NJS this week. Off to Ozjet and Skyairworld to be to fly smaller jets for more money and more time off!:ok:

No worries mate

19th Jan 2007, 23:20

I wouldn't say the B737 is smaller than the B717 and B146.

Kransky

20th Jan 2007, 00:01

737-200 MTOW 49.2? Or is that -100?

717-200 = 53.5

Moniker

20th Jan 2007, 00:07

I think its interesting - we spend our lives chasing the next bigger/biggest thing in our careers. When we get there, and after passing of time, we start chasing a lifestyle. Sometimes to get the lifestyle, we change employers within the same industry. Not every employee is 100% satisfied all of the time in any occupation, but why oh why does it always come down to an us v them slanging match here?

No worries mate

20th Jan 2007, 00:23

-200: MTOW 52390 kg optional: 58740 kg.
If their -300 arrive, MTOW:56740 kg or HGW 62823 kg.
E190: MTOW STD: 47790 kg, LR: 50300 kg, AR: 51800 kg

yowie

20th Jan 2007, 08:27

Heard it was only 2 Capts(146) to SAW,1 F/O (717) to Oz.
Kransky,you should get out of the closet more,E170/190 comparable to 146 100/300,a little heavier even(190v300). As for more time off,only time will tell!:hmm:

Trevor the lover

22nd Jan 2007, 21:09

Clarrie,

No it wasn't me sending you SMSs, but give me your number and i'll send you some rippers to get you barrin' up on your Alice overnights.

Renurpp,

yes you are probably right, not many are happy with their lot in life as a pilot. But at least at some places we get paid very good money to be miserable, as opposed to NJS F/Os (capts do ok) who are constantly faced with attacks on their conditions under the guise of "we need to be more competitive to secure the contracts guys, and pilots are the best source to attack."

Bring back DM - she was easy to and fun to hate.