View Full Version : PPL flying into RAF bases.
GWidgery
6th Dec 2006, 21:41
I was wonderring if it is possible to fly into active RAF bases with just a standard PPL.
I had my mind on Middle Wallop and Yeovilton, both of which have aviation musems at them - one reason to go there!
If it is possible, I'm guessing there's a bit more paperwork, and more procedures to follow.
Any advice or knowledge about this would be great
Thanks
GWidgery
DX Wombat
6th Dec 2006, 21:59
According to a friend it is often possible but is strictly PPR and the landing fee is steep at around £65! (maybe even more for bigger aircraft) :sad:
will fly for food 06
6th Dec 2006, 22:00
just ring up the bt number of the base, wait for teh operator and ring the ops direct, they'l tell u
Fuji Abound
6th Dec 2006, 22:05
(1) Yes, rarely a problem,
(2) Cost can be significantly reduced with an MOD insurance waiver (which is not just a component of your insurance cover, but requires application to strike command).
(3) The number of visits may be restricted without 2.
(4) The waiver is pilot AND aircraft specific
DX Wombat
6th Dec 2006, 22:24
(2) Cost can be significantly reduced with an MOD insurance waiver (which is not just a component of your insurance cover, but requires application to strike command).
I understand this is no longer the case and all non-military aircraft are subject to the large landing fees :{
I've never actually been but have phoned up several to find out and it was never simple. The last one was Cosford, about 6m ago, and they wanted 24HR PPR by fax, with copies of insurance documents. I could not be bothered and arranged to meet the other party near the much more pleasant Welshpool instead.
I don't know why they don't just open up, and make a useful £10-£20, not to mention fuel sales, each time somebody lands there. There seems to be zero activity on most RAF fields that I have flown near.
A and C
7th Dec 2006, 05:58
I can tell that you don't pass RAF Benson very much, that is very busy at times.
One thing, though: don't refer to either Wallop or Yeovilton as "RAF bases" if you do contact them.
The Army Air Corps and Fleet Air Arm may not take it well! :}
Megaton
7th Dec 2006, 08:38
IO540,
The boys & gals in blue have enough to do without opening at weekends for a couple of puddle-jumpers. Most RAF airfields do not hold AVGAS and it would be ludicrously inefficient to open an airfield for one light aircraft. £10-£20 wouldn't even cover the cost of lighting let alone all the other bits and pieces. Make no mistake, you cannot compare a civilian airfield with a military one.
Chilli Monster
7th Dec 2006, 09:01
I suspect IO540 meant "open up" as in make themselves easier access rather than changing their operating hours.
tmmorris
7th Dec 2006, 09:23
If you want AVGAS you need to make sure you go to one of the airfields that has an AEF or UAS on it - e.g. Benson, Cosford, Leeming, Leuchars, &c. They operate Grob 115E Tutors so will have AVGAS, though the paperwork is nasty. If there's an AEF they will also mostly be open at weekends.
Otherwise comments above are accurate - the MOD waiver is available from HQ STC at RAF High Wycombe (something like 'civil admin' department, I seem to remember).
You will find the phone numbers for Ops at individual bases in the AFE VFR Flight Guide, amongst others. When you ring, persevere: even flying from a RAF flying club, I often encounter total ignorance when I ring for PPR. If the SNCO who answers doesn't understand, ask them to find out and get back to you. You should end up being given a PPR number which you must bring with you (but never quote over the radio). And you will be bottom priority, traffic-wise - I was held off Leeming for 20 minutes once...
Also, make sure you are up to speed with the military circuit pattern and RT. It's in CAP413 and has been discussed on here before.
On price, BTW, I understand that they've been ordered not to undercut 'similar' civilian airfields. When 'similar' means instrument approaches to all runways, lighting, &c &c you can see why it's expensive. Even though you've already paid for it all, out of taxes...
Tim
aluminium persuader
7th Dec 2006, 09:54
Fuel may be available from bases with flying clubs which means most. Weekend flying may not be a problem since most airfields have something going on anyway (gliding and/or club flying) operating without ATC the same as you would at any other "uncontrolled" airfield. Just be aware that the residents may be flying military (ie oval and possibly lower) circuits & make sure you get a good briefing.
Bandit650
7th Dec 2006, 10:10
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1476
breakscrew
7th Dec 2006, 12:01
GWidgery,
If you are interested in visiting Middle Wallop, you should give the airfield manager a ring on 01264-784727, and he will fill you in on the details. If you do not have MoD insurance you can pay on the day.
By the way, the museum is excellent.
BS :)
Fuji Abound
7th Dec 2006, 12:07
I understand this is no longer the case and all non-military aircraft are subject to the large landing fees
I am not aware of any change.
Why do you beleive it is no longer the case?
DX Wombat
7th Dec 2006, 15:03
The person who told me is in a position to know such things. Sorry, but I am not at liberty to disclose the person's identity.
EK4457
7th Dec 2006, 16:19
The person who told me is in a position to know such things. Sorry, but I am not at liberty to disclose the person's identity.
Sounds a bit 'cloak and dagger'!
Is that Polonium 210 I can taste in my tea?
EK
englishal
7th Dec 2006, 16:24
Yeovilton have Avgas.....we may be going to put our aeroplane there. Fuel is much cheaper and one big benefit of being based there is that all landings at any MOD field in the entire UK is then free ;)
spikeair
7th Dec 2006, 18:42
Yes, go for it. make sure you have the MOD indeminity insurance. If it' s a club they might have it or you o pay on a pay as you go basis. Not been for a while but i think it something like £25 or thereabouts. Someone else might be abel to give a mroe accurate price but you get the idea.
Some of the radio work might be slightly different but nothing that you won't be able to handle. Have been in to Yoevilton, Lyneham and Brize Norton myself and was a good experience.
If you have a IMC rating you could try out a PAR approach at Yeovilton for a something a little differnt from the norm.
dinoorin
7th Dec 2006, 20:00
Call ops and ask. However be aware of the type of airfield you want to go to.
If its mainly rotary - you need to be able to fit in with some very odd departure / rejoin patterns (compared with fixed wing)
Fast Jet - expect to be held off while the fast pointy things are recovered.
The main issue is trust. Unfortunately there are some less than professional individuals out there. Therefore expect the controller to work to the lowest denominator system. Unfair to most, however ultimately designed to keep people safe. Mil and Civvy don't play well together due to huge performance differences.
Cosford was mentioned earlier. As a driver from Cosford I can say that we have occasions where aircraft just pitch up and request to land (no PPR) and are then peeved when told politely where to go. Also to anyone who wants to visit. Consider the traffic at stations like this. 5 Tutors, 5 Vigilants, 1 air ambulance, 3 PA28's from the RAF club, various conventional gliders on the South side. VVVVV Busy, not the place for someone who is unsure of the circuit or area. - just an observation
Personally, if I really wanted to go somewhere. I would ask and check for things such as any local restrictions or traffic integration issues. At least that gives the right first impression.
Does flying into a military airfield have any security implications? Do they ask what your purpose is when visiting? When you guys have been in to Lyneham, Brize etc....what is there to do? Any facilities? (car hire etc)
Is RT much different than civvy?
stiknruda
7th Dec 2006, 21:28
As a fairly frequent visitor to certain pointy jet stations, I'd concur with dinoorin.
If you are in any doubt, well really there is no doubt - don't think about it.
Better that you are shown the ropes with someone familiar and then await the invitation, far less stressful for those in the aircraft and those in light blue serge worrying what you'll do.
Mil circuits and civvy ones (in the UK) are different beasts and you really don't want to be asking what "Can you trample the cable?", means as you are sliding down final worrying about all the other important things.
GWidgery
7th Dec 2006, 22:08
Great info! Thanks a lot.
Does flying into a military airfield have any security implications? Do they ask what your purpose is when visiting? When you guys have been in to Lyneham, Brize etc....what is there to do? Any facilities? (car hire etc)
Is RT much different than civvy?
I would really appreciate it if people could give me some info on the above thanks
Fuji Abound
7th Dec 2006, 22:22
Does flying into a military airfield have any security implications?
Obviously
Do they ask what your purpose is when visiting?
Yes
When you guys have been in to Lyneham, Brize etc....what is there to do?
No more or less than any other airport - in fact if you are going for coffee and cakes a lot less. There is no point going to a military airfield unless you have business or pleasure outside the airfield in mind, or some specific purpose on the field (visiting a museum).
Any facilities? (car hire etc)
Rarely.
Once flew out of Lossie in mid 1980s in my C150 Aerobat. One of the co-owners was ex-RAF and he took the aircraft there for a week to brush up his skills with an instructor mate of his who was based there. Don't know what he paid; I suspect it was close to SFA.
I went there to take Romeo Papa back home to Longside and after checking in at the gate was taken to the VASS hangar where my little 150 was the only aicraft in this huge heated space. Although it was the weekend there was a 3 or 4 man team of handlers on duty who duly opened the hangar doors and pushed 'RP outside into the cold.
They then stood by with fire extinguisher etc. while I pre-flighted the aircraft (low hours PPL, very thorough, checklist in hand) then climbed into the LH seat, did the internal checks, gave the thumbs-up and turned the key. Well....................
The engine gave 4 or 5 asthmatic turns before the battery gave up. Decided to hand-swing; the ground crew had seen it all before and had the chocks in almost before I asked. The engine fired after the 3rd or 4th swing, jumped back in, strapped up and the chocks were smartly removed.
Taxied to 28 threshold. Being the weekend nothing else was moving and I suspect the controller was glad to have something to see moving. I was previously briefed on the technique for getting a 150 over the arrestor wire on 28 and it worked a treat. (Any of you PPLs out there used this particular technique?)
With a reasonable headwind I was at circuit height almost before reaching the upwind end of the runway, turned left and was on my way.
The professionalism of everyone I dealt with was impressive and I can recommend at least one flight into a military field for any PPL, even if just to experience how the other lot do things.
C-dog
I guess things like this aint gonna make the British Ministry of Defence any more enthusiastic about opening up military airfields to PPLs.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=199266
Millionaire Cessna pilot screws up trying to land on one of the biggest airfields in England and his family sue the RAF claiming it was all the fault of a Sea King maneuvering :rolleyes: and claim £10 million damages.
OK it settled 50/50 but £5 million is still big bucks.
Given that e.g. Cosford is within a £10 taxi ride from say Wolverhampton, my Q would be what is involved in getting in or out of these places.
Neither has a published IAP.
Does one have to fly the published circuit (where is it published) or can one ask for e.g. a straight-in?
Does Cosford have an ILS or PAR? I would fly an IAP anytime, just for the practice.
It would be really handy to be able to sort out access to these places elsewhere in the UK.
Given that e.g. Cosford is within a £10 taxi ride from say Wolverhampton, my Q would be what is involved in getting in or out of these places.
Neither has a published IAP.
Does one have to fly the published circuit (where is it published) or can one ask for e.g. a straight-in?
Does Cosford have an ILS or PAR? I would fly an IAP anytime, just for the practice.
It would be really handy to be able to sort out access to these places elsewhere in the UK.
No Cosford dosen't!!! Just a 4000ft runway
Apologies for not writing more succintly. When I said "getting in or out" I was referring to how long it takes to get in or out of the airside, to public transport / taxis etc.
There are lots of airports around Europe where you have to allow 1-2hrs when departing. Arrival is usually easier; Greece (Corfu LGKR) is down to about 1 hr if you want to pay the landing fee (which you most definitely do, there and then :) )
spikeair
8th Dec 2006, 10:59
re security impluications.
When I flew in, just said that I like to fly to different places. They'll either say yes or no.Bring a passport just in case.
Nothing to see when you get there and you'd need to be escorted around anyway for obvious reasons.Brize has a flying club which you can pop into.
i once asked to fly into Boscombe but was refused as they considered it not a good idea due to the amount of traffic and variety.Yeovilton, you've obvoiusly got the museum, so thats good enough reason.
Rt wisde, you'd know that the military circuit is an oval where you call final on what would normally be a base leg, this is in one of the ppl books (not thom).
Also bear in mind that the controller are probably working UHF frequencies aswell that you will not be privvy to.
definitly go for it though for the experience, you never know you might need to divert into one one day!
Anonystude
8th Dec 2006, 16:06
Given that e.g. Cosford ...
Neither has a published IAP.
Does one have to fly the published circuit (where is it published) or can one ask for e.g. a straight-in?
Does Cosford have an ILS or PAR? I would fly an IAP anytime, just for the practice.
Cosford has a published IAP -- a VDF/QGH! Perfect if you fancy something a bit different...
And you can certainly *ask* for a straight-in/downwind join, if the circuit's quiet, you'll probably get it, too.