Direct Routing in Mid-teens...

[VORTIME]

Hi folks,

Can any experienced IFR pilots tell me the probably of getting a direct to destination routing (France, Swiss, Italy) if routing in the mid altitudes 10-25,000ft? When you request a distance route, say D-> CALDO LS 600nm or so from London, would ATC have to look it up or what would be their direction?

VT

[nouseforaname]

I fly IFR quite a lot in Europe between F150 and F240. In the UK you won't get many direct routings below F250, above I don't really have any experience. Flying up and down the UK below F250 I find myself on a radar heading more often than not.

In Europe high level airways start at F200, therefore you will find that if you fly at F200 or above you get more direct routings. This is especially evident around the Paris FIR. I fly to Courchevel quite a bit and you get a completely different routing when below/at or above F200.

Also when flying don't be afraid to look intersections up yourself and ask for direct xxxxx more often than not I cut a good 10mins off my journey by just keep asking for directs!

[S-Works]

You have a pretty slim chance of getting a direct routing that far. The number of airways you would cross would be a coordination nightmare. Once you are in the airways system you will find that they are more accomodating for more direct routing. You would effectivly be IFR outside of CAS for a lot of the time so have to negotiate your own crossing of each airway as you get to it. I route Spanhoe to St Mawgan a lot as a DCT IFR flight and it is pain just negoitiating accross the 4 airways that I encounter. Do often I will fly WCO-R41- SAM then DCT.

I am not sure a DCT of that distance would even be accepted by Deep Thought at Eurocontrol. I will have to try and file it on the route checker.

[Chilli Monster]

Don't even try and file a 600 mile DCT like the one you suggest - IFPS wil not accept it!

As Bose says - you won't get anything that involves excessive co-ordination, and unless it's an agreed DCT between two FIR's then it aint happening, so don't even bother asking. ATC wil give you DCT's when they can (rule 1 of Air Traffic - the idea is to get rid of the aircraft ia quick as possible) but incessant asking for Direct's is just irritating and wastes valuable R/T time.

[bookworm]

Hi folks,
Can any experienced IFR pilots tell me the probably of getting a direct to destination routing (France, Swiss, Italy) if routing in the mid altitudes 10-25,000ft? When you request a distance route, say D-> CALDO LS 600nm or so from London, would ATC have to look it up or what would be their direction?

No experience at those levels but most ATCCs will tend to issue direct clearances to points on their FIR boundary and no further. In some cases letters of agreement allow some flexibility (e.g. London will give you direct Koksy).

but incessant asking for Direct's is just irritating and wastes valuable R/T time

I tend to side with you on this CM, but I often wonder, if that's the case, why such a large proportion of requests for directs are actually approved.

[Chilli Monster]

I tend to side with you on this CM, but I often wonder, if that's the case, why such a large proportion of requests for directs are actually approved.

You would be amazed how often such things happen at the same time i.e Pilot asks for further descent, direct routeing etc at the same time as ATCO is going to give it - it just depends who hits the transmit switch first.

[VORTIME]

What about DCT ZoneBoundary1 DCT ZoneBoundary2 etc?

Is there any FL where you can get away with more than other FLs?

VT

[Chilli Monster]

What about DCT ZoneBoundary1 DCT ZoneBoundary2 etc?
IT WON'T GET ACCEPTED! - You have to file a route acceptable to IFPS.

[S-Works]

IT WON'T GET ACCEPTED! - You have to file a route acceptable to IFPS.

100% with Chilli here, the AIRWAYS system exists to allow the most efficient routing of traffic through very busy airspace. Once you are inside the airways system you will get a lot of direct routing but you have to file to join it.

Let me put it another way. You are in wales in your landrover and you want to drive to clacton. Between you and Clacton are hundreds of roads (airways). Do you attempt to drive off road all the way and negotiate your crossing accross each road as you come to it or do you drive along the motorways following the established path with the odd bit off off road should the occassion arise?

If you file a DCT plan you are not inside the airways system so will not get the ATC Service and you are on your own. What you will do by trying to enter CAS and negotiate your way accross an airway at a time is become a right pain in the ass to both the airspace users and the ATCO's. In reality though you would not allowed entry.

I have had some pretty massive direct routings when flying UK to the Med accross France and Spain but I start in the airways on an airways plan that has gone into Euro control.

[Fuji Abound]

"Is there any FL where you can get away with more than other FLs?"

I think I understand that your question maybe once you have filed (as others have said the first obstacle to overcome is filing, and what you want you cant file!).

However there is not going to be much traffic in any of the lower FLs for obvious reasons so you stand a a better chance.

[bookworm]

IT WON'T GET ACCEPTED! - You have to file a route acceptable to IFPS.

Some states accept some fairly lengthy DCTs for IFPS purposes.

http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu/gallery/content/public/rad/docs/21dec/dct.pdf

UK accepts 100 nm below FL105. Scandinavian states have longer allowances. Other states don't permit DCT at all.

The most amusing one is in the German section as a special prohibition:
"ETAR DCT GTQ = NOT allowed"

Since 1945, the USAF think they can get away with anything... ;)

[S-Works]

Some states accept some fairly lengthy DCTs for IFPS purposes.
http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/cfmu/gallery/content/public/rad/docs/21dec/dct.pdf
UK accepts 100 nm below FL105. Scandinavian states have longer allowances. Other states don't permit DCT at all.
The most amusing one is in the German section as a special prohibition:
"ETAR DCT GTQ = NOT allowed"
Since 1945, the USAF think they can get away with anything... ;)

where are these 2 points?

[Chilli Monster]

ETAR - Ramstein AFB, Germany

GTQ - Grostenquin VOR/DME, France

[S-Works]

ETAR - Ramstein AFB, Germany
GTQ - Grostenquin VOR/DME, France

Ah! Now I see!

[bookworm]

Sorry Bose-X, with hindsight, I guess you have to have flown over the Pfalz and Saarland a couple of times, and hear a few exchanges between Langen and "Reach <whatever>". ;)

[DFC]

IT WON'T GET ACCEPTED! - You have to file a route acceptable to IFPS.


Chilli,

Yes one does have to file a route acceptable to IFPS.

However, provided one knows what the IFPS will accept, one can manipulate the system to get any sort of crap accepted.

Here is an IFR flight plan leaving Filton, tracking the Brecon180 radial out to 300 odd miles before turning eastand eventually tracking back towards BCN before arriving at Cardiff.

(FPL-GABCD-IG
-PA34/L-S/C
-EGTG1200
-N0140F150 DCT BCN180025 DCT BCN180050 DCT BCN180100 DCT BCN180150 DCT BCN180200 DCT BCN180250 DCT BCN180300 DCT BCN180350 DCT BCN175350 DCT BCN170350 DCT BCN165350 DCT BCN160350 DCT BCN160300 DCT BCN160250 DCT BCN160200 DCT BCN160150 DCT BCN160100 DCT BCN160050 DCT
-EGGD0700 EGFF
- )


What does the IFPS say about such a plan? - NO ERRORS

As I said above provided one knows how to manipulate the system (in this case keep within the SID limit, the direct limits (50nm) and the STAR limit, the computer will accept it.

Getting a clearance to fly souch a route would be a totally different matter.

One could file a similar plan from Heathrow all the way to say Marseille.

Is one going to get clearance to fly that route.......basically no chance.

Thus there is absolutely no relationship between getting a flight plan accepted, getting a slot (if required) and getting a clearance that matches the filed route.

I suspect what you were trying to say is;

File a plan that conforms to the correct routing procedures. ATC will always give direct routings whenever they are available.

Note. One of the big reasons for (unexpected) sector overloads at ACCs is the surrounding quiet sectors/ACCs giving short-cuts to traffic resulting in bunching at the sector/ACC boundary because while flow control based a flowthrough the sector of say 30/hour, with everyone giving shortcuts, the traffic expected later arrives at the same time as the busy period and hey presto insted of having 12 aircraft on frequency, there is 24 and they are all looking for level changes and require vectors etc etc!............then the phone rings with the guy asking about some idiot who is requesting a direct.... :D

Regards,

DFC

[Chilli Monster]

However, provided one knows what the IFPS will accept, one can manipulate the system to get any sort of crap accepted.

No Sh1t Sherlock - having been filing FPL's since the inception of IFPS I'm quite aware of the ways around the system.

However, yes, you're quite right, getting the clearance for such a route wil result in an unequivocal No, Non, Nein, Niente etc etc

So - for the original poster let's keep it simple shall we - Don't File 600 mile DCT's that cross FIR boundaries - File a route that is withn the CFMU's notified ATC route structure.

[IO540]

I seem to recall there is another way to suppress CFMU checking, using the term "GAT" this came from DFC originally I believe.

Nobody seems to know what the purpose of this is but given the obvious meaning of "GAT" one would assume this is a deliberate feature of the system.

I've had ~ 300nm direct legs in Europe, at FL100-180, but they were within a single country. They way to get these is to ask, and keep asking.

In any case, ATC sometimes need reminding; they can sometimes forget about you and then you fly past the end of your "DCT" or "own nav" instruction and wonder if you should revert to the filed route. So, while reminding them of your existence you may as well ask for a DCT a few waypoints past.

In reality there appears to be so little traffic at these "nonpressurised GA" levels that I wonder why ATC don't do this more often. One can fly 500-800nm across Europe, in gin-clear weather, and not get visual with another plane.

[DFC]

I seem to recall there is another way to suppress CFMU checking, using the term "GAT" this came from DFC originally I believe.

IFPS will not check or process OAT flights - flights under the control of the military. Some flights are part OAT and part GAT - General air traffic.

The indicators OAT or GAT are used in the flight plan route to indicate points where the flight will change from Military control to Civil control or vice versa.

To keep it simple, if you only put a GAT following a point in the plan, IFPS ignores everything up to that point because it is military.

Thus for IFR flights outside controlled airspace in the UK, it can be used to stop processing of the flight plan and thus stop lots of errors for a flight that is not entering the ATS structure.

However, using it for an airways flight will not work beause in those cases you want IFPS to process the plan and you want everyone to get a copy.

Thus in the case being described here, the GAT indicator will not help.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

DFC

What exactly happens to a flight plan which uses "GAT" within it?

If it passes the CFMU checking website, and gets accepted by Eurocontrol, then surely it is within the system. If not, which part is not within the system?

Either the FP is distributed to the sector controllers, or not.

On a related matter, presumably, if somebody filed a FP using your VORrrrddd notation and thus avoided all checking, ATC would still know the destination and would just send you along a rough route. Each controller must know his little patch (and the permitted routes) intimately.

[Chilli Monster]

What exactly happens to a flight plan which uses "GAT" within it?
It gets diseminated to the relevant civil sector which controls the "GAT" part of the route. For that part which is outside that portion it will normally be addressed to the relevant Military controlling sector.

If it passes the CFMU checking website, and gets accepted by Eurocontrol, then surely it is within the system. If not, which part is not within the system?
Yes, it is. However, any errors in the plan may have got through the CFMU check system due to the OAT portion of the plan. The sector will still handle the flight, through the GAT portion of the flight, like any other GAT (Civil) flight

Either the FP is distributed to the sector controllers, or not.
See above

On a related matter, presumably, if somebody filed a FP using your VORrrrddd notation and thus avoided all checking, ATC would still know the destination and would just send you along a rough route. Each controller must know his little patch (and the permitted routes) intimately.

Yes, but expect a delay in getting the clearance for trying to be a smart alec ;) If you're really lucky you'll get someone throw it back at you before you ask for engine start and ask for something more meaningful to what you're trying to achieve. If I was called for a clearance based on that type of FPL I'd hope you'd have some holding fuel while something was sorted. The Controller you would call would know his patch intimately - but it's how you're handled by the next person and the next one after that that has to be considered too.

[IO540]

I have heard various one-line tales - never supported with actual examples - of people using clever DCT tricks to get around CFMU. Would these be legal DCTs, or something else?

Bear in mind that the whole reason people look for these tricks is because there is no publicly accessible airways autorouting facility, and central Europe tends to be a ba*tard to find routes in. The ASA site is good but not good enough, and Flitestar is generally worse.