Night Instructing

[Dude~]

Can anyone direct me to a source that indicates the limits of daytime instruction? Is it offical night or is it sunset? What would happen if you were forced into offical night as an FI on a lesson, and had a valid night qual or IR, but was not qualifed to instruct night?

Cheers

Dude

[VFE]

From the viewpoint of your student he/she can only log the time as Pu/T up until sunset. Legally you can fly until official night time even without a night rating but unless you have a night instructor rating (min 2 hours training in the air + 1 on the ground) your lesson legally ends at sunset in terms of your student logging the time as Pu/T.

Going past sunset without the night instructor rating could cause money arguments on the ground so my advice is to land by sunset unless your punter knows the score. Trial lessons are the worst scenario for this really - legally it's a no-no but 9 times out of 10 the punter isn't interested in using the time torwards a PPL so commercial pressures may mean this ruling is perhaps flouted from time to time although I have yet to witness it.

VFE.

[Whopity]

The ANO Article 155 defines night as:
‘Night’ means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise (both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level;

If its not Night, it must be Day.

To do any instructing at night for whatever reason requires a Night Instructor qualification.

[EvilKitty]

From the viewpoint of your student he/she can only log the time as Pu/T up until sunset. Legally you can fly until official night time even without a night rating but unless you have a night instructor rating (min 2 hours training in the air + 1 on the ground) your lesson legally ends at sunset in terms of your student logging the time as Pu/T.

Why is there this disparity with a PPL student only being able to log time until sunset, even though it is still official day (unless with a night instructor in which case I presume all time can be logged with the relevant night hours going towards the night qual)?

[QNH 1013]

There isn't a disparity. The Uk definition of Night is as given by Whopity above. Other States define Night differently, but in the UK, it is unambiguous and easily predicted. Whether it is dark or not, depends on the weather, but in my experience, it will always be dark enough for night training by the time "official" Night starts.

[EvilKitty]

I crossed posts with Whopity. Thats my understanding of the ANO and how its interpreted in LASORS.

But the question wasn't about the definition of night. Its about VFE's statement that flight after sunset cannot be logged by a PPL student where the instructor is not qualified to teach the night rating, even though it is still official day. Hence the disparity.

[Dude~]

There isn't a disparity

Well I think there is because one guy says you can instruct up to offical night without a night qual and the other says student cannot log P.u/t after sunset, whihc is not night time.

VFE, what is you source for what you say because if its true I need to print it out for reference...

[Whopity]

The source is usually the school FOB which requires solo students to be on the ground by sunset. This gives them a 30 minute buffer for safety reasons and has nothing to do with any law or rule. Its also quite dark enough for them at that time.

[VFE]

Ok, I'm well and truly confused now!

My reference is the CFI at my FTO. Maybe he's wrong then?

VFE.

[homeguard]

With regard to your licence it is simple. There is only darkness and then the light. Nothing in between! The definition of 'night' for the purposes of flight has been fully defined (the qoute from the ANO) for all other times for the purpose of the Licence or rating IT IS day.
To fly at night you must have a Night Rating (Qualification) but to instruct at night you must have an Instructor Night Rating (Qualififcation). If you do not have the latter then you must not instruct during the night hours as defined for flight. A simple answer to a simple question; should an instruction flight not end before official night takes place when the Instructor is not appropiately rated, what? Answer; then the lesson should end and the Instructor uses the Night privilege of his pilots rating to take control and land.
Daylight hours commence 30 minutes before sunrise to 30 minutes after sunset, it is that simple. If as a suitably qualified instructor you may train during the night hours, then fine for many exercises. PFLs would be problematic of course. Many other lessons can be carried out very successfully at night including some navigation.
It is rare though that the student may log a lesson for two purposes. It should be logged as night qualification training or training toward the requirement for the PPL but not both, although if undertaken during official night then hours are entered into the night column. In most cases the student will have exceeded the minimum requirements for the PPL and therefore the additional night hours if appropiate could count toward the Night Qualification applied for later.

[EvilKitty]

It is rare though that the student may log a lesson for two purposes. It should be logged as night qualification training or training toward the requirement for the PPL but not both, although if undertaken during official night then hours are entered into the night column. In most cases the student will have exceeded the minimum requirements for the PPL and therefore the additional night hours if appropiate could count toward the Night Qualification applied for later.

Not true - the night hours can be within the 45 hour minimum. From LASORS Section C1.2:
Night Qualification
Training for a Night Qualification (Aeroplanes) may be completed and included within the 45 hours total flight time required for the JAR-FCL PPL(A), providing the minimum requirements at (a) and (b) have been met.

[homeguard]

Evil Kitty
Read what I've said again but with care. Your reiterating only what I've said! Your forgeting maybe that the minimum requirement of instruction for the PPL is 25 hours dual and 10 hours supervised solo. Thus you have 10 hours flight time hours to play with to achieve the minimum 45 hours of experience which of course could be night flying.

[jamestkirk]

This may have already been in the text in the previous posts so forgive me if i am repeating somone.

A student ca log time at night.

But, it can only count for a night rating only if all of the PPL flight exercises have been completed. This could be before the 25/10 or after, if you know what i mean. What I am trying to say is that the exercises are the important thing not necessarily the hours

[FormationFlyer]

Adding a further note of caution here...

If the instructor is NOT night instructor qualified (i.e. has night restrictions on the FI rating) then the lesson MUST end at the start of official night.

however...You CANNOT have the student then PAY for the content of the flight AFTER the start of night - except under a flight which would be private - because otherwise your flight has become public transport or aerial work depending on how you look at (probably aerial work as a pleasure flight). The night portion would therefore have to be shared as a private flight with the cost borne as appropriate in the ANO - and that means the instructor must pay his fair share.

This does however if you accept the above then become a question of whether a flight can start off as aerial work and become a private flight - personnally I think not. If it starts as aerial work in - then AFAIAC it ends as aerial work - in which case then instructor has just put himself in a position where he is not legally entitled to act as P1, as he would be deemed to be providing instruction.

Now if you want to risk that debate with the authorities/your CFI...go ahead. Personally - get the night restriction removed and dont be silly enough to venture into these somewhat muddy waters.

[Whopity]

(probably aerial work as a pleasure flight).
NO! Thats public transport for which an AOC is required!

[FormationFlyer]

Yep you are right.

What happened to the pleasure flight rules regarding aerial work which used to state it wasnt public transport as long as the flight it takes places within 25nm of the a/d and the a/d of take-off and landing are the same.