Polar/atlas Merger Unfair [Archive]

mercpc9

25th Nov 2006, 23:32

Just got royaly hoesed in the merger and they call this fair?

You think it's fair that a Polar crewmember junior to an Atlas crewmember should move up on the seniority list 265 numbers ahead of the senior Atlas crewmember in a company with a combined pilot force of less than 800? Well that's what happened.

I never posted on this or any other Atlas/Polar thread and prefer to stay out of the politics and let those more inclined to have at it. But this is a major injustice. I was always a proponet of date of hire with a seat lock and think that is the only fair position. I never personally said any detromental remarks about Polar crewmembers and always thought things should be done failry since we will eventually end up working together, but this is crap.

Yes it does suck, but the "no bump, flush or system re-bid" in the condition's section may prove to resolve a lot of the injustice in the arbiters decision.

windonyoursix

25th Nov 2006, 23:33

If you stay in this business long enough nothing will surprise you. It's a shame how this will affect the careers of alot of good Atlas crewmembers who may now never get the chance to upgrade after being here for so long. For the life of me i don't see how this could have gone this bad. Date of hire and seat lock was a fair due for all concerned but this blatantly hurst one pilot group while enhancing the other.

Captain Slappy

25th Nov 2006, 23:36

The feeling I get from reading the arbitrators ruling is that the transfer of flying from Polar to Atlas and the massive furloughs and F/E firings of the Polar pilots because of it had a bearing in the final list. Just my opinion though.

For what it is worth I have seen a previous merger at brand X and the combined list is about what you would expect for two carriers of about the same age but different sizes. Also as should be , all crews hired after the buyout were straight DOH, though there are Atlas advantages in that. From what I can see all dual classes, meaning all classes that were both Polar and Atlas, the Atlas crews were slotted above their Polar classmates regardless of age (the atlas way) or SS# (the Polar way)

The biggest difference I saw was the fact that the arbitrator ignored the fact that AAWW has shrunk Polar down in recent months. I got the feeling that he saw it for what it was, possibly JC's attempt to get back at the Polar crews for making him look bad during the strike. After all he swore that the Polar crews would cave and never go on strike. Which they might have until AAWW fired all the newhires with less than 1 year even before the strike had happened. In that one move AAWW showed their colors and finished solidifying what was left of the group. That was JCs doing as well.

My personal feeling is that the combined list would have gone much more in Atlas's favor if it had not been for the wholesale gutting that AAWW hammered Polar with this past year. People out of a job because their employer transferred their work to a sister company just to avoid legal contracts that the company signed normally does not sit well with arbitrator or legal types.

As I mentioned above this is simply my opinion from my point of view down in the trenches. And you know how opinions are..:E

Captain Slappy

25th Nov 2006, 23:40

Yes it does suck, but the "no bump, flush or system re-bid" in the condition's section may prove to resolve a lot of the injustice in the arbiters decision.

Word is that it is a typo and being corrected by the arbiter. A "Not" was left out due to typing error. Which sounds correct due to the section at the beginning of the ruling that deals with the same subject but has the opposite stated.

sunchaser

26th Nov 2006, 00:03

Like i said i don't give a damn about the politics between the Polar and Atlas MEC's or anyone else. I do my job and expect my seniority to be respected and not shoved up my a&s. There is nothing anyone can say on either side which would justify a junior crewmember moving 265 places ahead of me. Date of hire was fair and seat locked the Polar captains that are junior to me. But to take away my chance for upgrade and elevate these guys at a ratio like that is absurd and criminal. The no bump and flush is insignificant, this is here to stay and will affect my future bidding and base awards with this company. Time to look for a job

Captain Slappy

26th Nov 2006, 00:20

Date of hire was fair and seat locked the Polar captains that are junior to me.

DOH with seat locks is how I figured that it would go too. Like I said above, I think that the actions of management this past year had a bearing on it. I always knew everybody after the buyout would be DOH, that is the way it is always done. I think JC can be thanked for the rest of the list by cutting Polar in half and moving the flying. I think that the arbiter simply adjusted to remove his influence so to speak.

However the writing was already on the wall. Anyhope of upgrade is gone with the classics, which AAWW has publically stated many times will happen at Atlas in the near future. I always figured that we would be seeing mass furloughs at Atlas by the end of 07 anyhow.

At this point in the game it would probably be better for all involved for Polar to take their asia slots and contracts and go their own way and Atlas go their own way with the ACMI. As long as AAWW managment is controlling both and using them against one another neither wins.

In the end though both groups are going to have to find a way to get along. If not AAWW will eat both for lunch.

whaledriver101

26th Nov 2006, 01:40

I thought the seniority list was very fair. Thats one arbitrators ruling. We at Polar have a couple more coming our way. "You aint seen nothing yet"!!

mercpc9

26th Nov 2006, 03:42

I thought the seniority list was very fair. Thats one arbitrators ruling. We at Polar have a couple more coming our way. "You aint seen nothing yet"!!

Figures. I bet you were one of those hired back when they shifted the Atlas flying and A/C to Polar during our negotiations.

Kind of different from what you said on another thread below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dont kid yourself merc. There wont be any merger of the pilot seniority list. They would have done it already.

We Polar guys will happily leave from "under the thumb" of incompetent management. And under management that have "know how" and "airline mentality" and will grow it.

The next question is: Who wants to buy the other 51%?? That way,, we will be completly done with Atlas

We Atlas guys would have been perfectly happy never seeing you. It would have solved many problems for us. Less pain and more gain for the Atlas pilot group instead of having another airline for the company to play off of us during our negotiations. Let alone the money wasted buying/maintaining Polar for their union busting attempt of the Atlas council.

CaptainSlappy,

What does the "no bump, flush or system re-bid" mean to the Polar side? What is your MEC telling your side about it? I noticed that the Polar VARS is silent on the recent award by the arbiter.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

layinlow

26th Nov 2006, 12:41

You show me a merger list that makes eveyone happy and I will kiss your butt in Times Square on New Years Eve. I went through it at TWA, US Air guys got hosed, the list goes on and on. No one likes merger lists.
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on. Your (Atlas) MEC dismissed it as an arbitrator's bias against ACMI flying instead of admitting they were in trouuble and better regroup Instead they gave a lot of b.s. to the union instead of admitting they screwed up. I think you had better take a good hard look at your council. They seem awfully close to J.C.. In fact if Cato made a sudden hard right turn Caputo would probably break his nose.
Lastly, the list is just that, a list and may not even see the light of day. Lighten up and wait to see what happens down the road. I seriously doubt you guys will ever merge. It is Cato's way of keeping things stirred up. Don't you think he didn't know this would happen. He may be evil but he is not stupid.

WhaleFR8

26th Nov 2006, 13:20

There was a typo on the "no bump no flush" part of the letter. The revision should be out later this week.

I think DOH with a fence for the Polar crews would have been fair also. It is obvious this list is skewed towards Polar. (There, I said it!)

But, you have to remember... the Atlas MEC did not propose a "DOH with Fences list" to the arbitrator. We all saw what the Atlas MEC proposed list looked like, and it was essentially a huge staple job for the Polar pilots. I really think that if the Atlas MEC could have been a little more reasonable and proposed a fair list, the arbitrator might have been inclined to lean closer to the middle.

Just my opinion, but it looks like the Atlas MEC screwed the pooch again on this one. There are now working so close with Cato and management that they are blind to what is happening in the real world. The fact is, if Caputo does not get re-elected, he is SOL. If my memory serves, he doesn't even have a medical any more. I hear rumors that he is in line for a position in Purchase. All rumors of course... but this is the "Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network."

You guys need to vote in some new leadership.

Well in the first place the Atlas MEC proposed nothing - it was the merger committee that proposed the list and it was NOT a staple job. The Merger committee simply said that Polar was only bringing 5 airplanes to the mix thus they only deserved 123 pilots to be "integrated" on the meat of the list. The staple job you are talking about was due to the fact that in their failed experiment to create value in Polar, Atlas sent a bunch of their airplanes over to Polar and hired a bunch of people. So yea - it might seem like the got stapled but they were hired for an airline that had ZERO prospects of keeping them employed as there is/was ZERO profitable work for them to do - so using logic (which harris obviously does not have an abundance of) you would think that their continued career prospects were nil - and they were.

WhaleFR8

26th Nov 2006, 13:28

Y
Now as for who's side won, how many people forgot the testimonies at the arbitration? If you want to read it you can. It didn't make Atlas look exactly good. Polar in the black and making money, Atlas transferring assets,and flying using Polar as an ACMI customer, the list goes on and on.
Huh? What hearing were you at? The Polar business model sucks! It always has and it always will. You have never made a profit and I doubt you ever would have. Why do you think Atlas has changed you to an ACMI carrier. Cuz that is where the money is.
Your (Atlas) MEC dismissed it as an arbitrator's bias against ACMI flying instead of admitting they were in trouuble and better regroup Instead they gave a lot of b.s. to the union instead of admitting they screwed up. You do not know what you are talking about. The NEGOTIATING committee and some on this board said that Dr. Campbell has a bias against ACMI - and he does. If you have read ANY of his other testimony you will see that. NO ONE, even on this board has said that the arbitrator has any bias (although now it looks like he is biased to 'roids)

I think you had better take a good hard look at your council. They seem awfully close to J.C.. In fact if Cato made a sudden hard right turn Caputo would probably break his nose. Once again a 'roid who does not know what he is talking about. John C. does not even talk to Cato. That falls to Bourne. It is a division of responsibility and leadership that you would not understand.

Lastly, the list is just that, a list and may not even see the light of day. Lighten up and wait to see what happens down the road. I seriously doubt you guys will ever merge. It is Cato's way of keeping things stirred up. Don't you think he didn't know this would happen. He may be evil but he is not stupid.Are you that clueless that you somehow think Cato had anything to do with this list? That is typical of a 'roid. You know nothing yet you spout it at the top of your lungs.

mercpc9

26th Nov 2006, 15:26

There was a typo on the "no bump no flush" part of the letter. The revision should be out later this week.

I think DOH with a fence for the Polar crews would have been fair also. It is obvious this list is skewed towards Polar. (There, I said it!)
I agree on both counts.

Doesn't really answer what "no bump no flush no system re-bid" means to the average Polar/Atlas guy though. I'm curious what the Polar MEC is saying to the masses. Depending on future events, the award may have little effect on Atlas crewmembers. While the list hurts looking at it up front, it seems the conditions placed in the award leave us an out of sorts.

Just my opinion, but it looks like the Atlas MEC screwed the pooch again on this one. There are now working so close with Cato and management that they are blind to what is happening in the real world. The fact is, if Caputo does not get re-elected, he is SOL. If my memory serves, he doesn't even have a medical any more. I hear rumors that he is in line for a position in Purchase. All rumors of course... but this is the "Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network." The Atlas MEC did screw the pooch. It was the Amussen and Weiss MEC 2001 that did it with the secret agreement back in 2002 when Atlas A/C were being moved to Polar and they made the secret agreement and seniority list which created the now called "Red-Blue" list of seniority Polar submitted in the arbitration. That shot us square in the balls. No if's - ands - or - buts about it. I'm just glad they were not re-elected. God knows what other damage they could have done on top of the other things they already did. Secret Agreement in PDF (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/LOI_Atlas_Polar010804.pdf).

I see that is the latest mantra from the Polar MEC to his underground communications committee. To say and do anything to get rid of the Bourne and Caputo MEC. I can understand this since the Amussen and Weiss Atlas MEC gave Polar everything they ever wanted and effectively shot every Atlas crewmember in the head. I new Amussen and Fell were buddies, but I didn't know at the time it was going to cost all the Atlas crews upgrades and continued employment from their friendship.

You better get used to Bourne and Caputo. They have been the only one's to actually try to mend fences, work with Polar without giving everything away, and all they have recieved from Polar is complete disappointment and attacks at the prompting of the Polar MEC. Those BTW can be reiviewed under the "who is the buyer for Polar" thread.

You guys need to vote in some new leadership.The same is said of the Polar MEC and more importantly of those running the show from the shadows. Those like Robin Hair and Bob Fell (Funny how he is on medical leave from Polar, but flying helicopters in Homer AK speaking of medical guys and still conducting union business. Bet he is getting paid by the union also.)

Yes, I'm sure you want someone like Weiss in there. Someone willing to give away everything to Polar and recieve nothing positive in return let alone the betrayals we did get.

You might as well get over it, if we do merge, the Atlas group knows that anything or anyone supported by Polar will cost them dearly. If nothing else, we do have solidarity enough to make sure no one ends up on the combined company MEC from Polar or any committee. That has been guaranteed by Polar's actions and not by the standing Atlas MEC.

CargoMatatu

26th Nov 2006, 17:49

Mods;

Can't you merge ALL the Atlas/Polar union slanging threads into one, PLEASE, so that the FREIGHT DOGS area can get back to discussing operational air freight issues without every new thread turning into the same old BORING slanging match between three or four individuals?:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Thank you.:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

CargoMatatu

26th Nov 2006, 18:30

Oh! And I have ONE HELL OF A LOT more than 62 posts to my credit over the years. Don't know where that one came from!

May the Matatu be with you:cool:

Po Boy

26th Nov 2006, 20:19

Better yet, just delete all the threads.
I grow weary of the 3 horsemen from Atlas who live in fairy tale land.

What about all the Polaroids who live on this forum also????

MODS do us all a favour and close these threads!

mercpc9

27th Nov 2006, 00:07

mercpc9,

You mis-read my post. I said YOU GUYS need to vote in some new leadership, not us.

We are all quite happy with our MEC. I know you have been following current events, but for those who haven't...we have won two VERY important arbitrations and were just awarded a merged seniority list that is fair.

What can you say about your MEC? What have they done for you lately?

(I actually hope you guys keep them, it will be interesting to see how much more they can screw up)

Here you go:

Atlas is now 570 crewmembers (not counting AACS) and Polar is 170 crewmembers,,,,looks like Polar lost

Polar has downgraded,,,,looks like Polar lost

Polar will NOT be the surviving carrier,,,,,looks like Polar lost

Polar will NOT get to bring their furloughs back in bump and roll........looks like Polar lost

Polar has lost all 200s while we still have ours,,,,,,,,,looks like Polar lost

Polar will cease to exist at the end of 2007.....looks like Polar lost

Polar F/E's will get to come back, then immed furloughed,,,,,,looks like Polar won but lost

Polar will not ever be getting new aircraft.....looks like Polar lost.

Polar will not get their wish to have Atlas crews SHARE the furlough in the new merged list
looks like Polar lost.

That's all I have at the moment.

As a note to the MODS. I would be perfectly happy to have these threads closed down and even have myself and the other Polar posters banned. I realize that would be impossible with your current system. They will just pop up again under a different name and thread.

I never would have been here if it wasn't for the Atlas bashing going on as an anonymous forum for the Polar MEC hate campaign.

whaledriver101

27th Nov 2006, 01:07

merc,

Polar will "not be the surviving carrier"?
"Will cease to exist after 07"
"will not be getting new aircraft"?

Is all that an arbitrators ruling or just an opinion???

Just asking

WhaleFR8

27th Nov 2006, 01:49

merc,

Polar will "not be the surviving carrier"?
"Will cease to exist after 07"
"will not be getting new aircraft"?

Is all that an arbitrators ruling or just an opinion???

Just asking

Management has said that all the pilots will be "Atlas" Pilots.
<see the Atlas employee exchange archives>

Polar Air Cargo will be gone - the certificate will be owned by Polar Worldwide.
<see the DHL announcement>

Some of the announcements of the 747-8 purchase said "Atlas Air Inc, a subsidiary of Atlas Air World Wide Holdings has placed orders for ....."

The DHL deal is for Polar Worldwide (essentially the routes and access to the US markets). The flying will all be accomplished by the Atlas pilots (remember the Polar pilots will be known as Atlas Pilots) who will be able to fly either the Atlas ACMI flights or the Polar Worldwide flights on whichever aircraft AAWH decides to populate the particular certificate with.

So really it all doesn't matter as essentially we will all be one big happy familiy just like NWA and Republic, Delta and Western, American and Reno, Alaska and Jet America, US Air and America West (and Delta?) etc etc

I can hardly wait to see Bobb, Bobbin, and HomerBob in an Atlas uniform.

Ain't this fun.

WhaleFR8

27th Nov 2006, 01:54

Hmmm, nice list.

Now post one that your MEC actually had a hand in, and not something that was dictated by corporate.

Hopeless. :confused:

Your transparent attempt to undermine your new leadership is as childish as your strike and most of your posts on this thread. :D

mercpc9

27th Nov 2006, 02:21

Hmmm, nice list.

Now post one that your MEC actually had a hand in, and not something that was dictated by corporate.

Hopeless. :confused:

I'm confused. Didn't you, along with the other underground communications committee, say that the Atlas MEC and management are sleeping together? You better call back and get the right posting Bobb or better yet Robin wants posted.

Whether the MEC had a hand in it or not, Atlas crews have won compared to Polar. Still not enough in my opinion.

Polar will "not be the surviving carrier"?
"Will cease to exist after 07"
"will not be getting new aircraft"?

Is all that an arbitrators ruling or just an opinion???

Just asking
Guess you didn't get the memo and it's not from the arbiter. WhaleFR8 referenced a number of the documents and releases.

If you want the truth, you need to seek it out. Do not wait for it to be presented to you by someone that wants to tell you what they want you to hear such as Bobb H., Robin Hair or on these threads. Verify it via an independent source with nothing to gain from it. Of course, if you like what Bobb and Co. is telling you don't bother. I wouldn't want to interfere with the dream.

I find it kind of funny that Bobb H. has not made a new VARS to crow about the seniority list award. He has been quick to claim victory in the past.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

layinlow

27th Nov 2006, 16:48

That is one fine piece of fiction there merc. Flies in the face of everything I read. It seems Polar has out argued you several times. Now I suggest you read the Polar scope clause before you write anything else. This one is in the hands of the arbitrator and we are awaiting a much delayed answer. And, as I wrote earlier, the longer it is delayed the more the chances are that the decision went against the company. It happened on the last two grievances and I belive it will on this one too. If that happens, o-o-o-o-ey, that will really shake things up!

Tiger Guy

29th Nov 2006, 23:45

WhaleFR8

29th Nov 2006, 23:55

mercpc9

30th Nov 2006, 01:28

MercP:
Do you have a little trouble counting? The Polar pilot list shows 269 pilots not 170 as you say. Then there are about 60-70 PF/E's. Good spin on who's fault the list is. Not only the arbitrator against you. looks like the two pilots on the board as well. Whoops! I forgot Amundsen and Weiss. Dam those guys, they did it in 2001. Any chance you could have then taken out and shot? A least have then tarred and feathered.
So Bourne and Caputo were too busy to get involved with anything as minor as the seniority list merger. Nice going let your merger committee carry the can.

WhaleFR8 covered the 170 thing. The FE's may be back on the payroll, but that will only be for a short time until they are properly furloughed instead of terminated.

As far as Amussen and Weiss, they were trying to keep things together while everything Atlas crews had was being moved to Polar and AACS as leverage against us and furlough crews. They just showed poor judgement in their negotiation skills on that secret agreement in 2001 which tied our hands in 2006 somewhat and on a number of other things in our current CBA. My beef with Weiss is that he flat out lied in several ways about the seniority merger LOI. Was kept secret at first, then later said it never happened, then later said it was only a rough draft, and then some other BS technicality thing later. Then we finally see the hard document signed by them all. That left us open to getting sandbagged out of his petty pride over the mistake he wanted hidden.

I think under section 45, the merger committee is required to work independent of the MEC during the merger process. Of course, they communicate I'm sure. Tell the truth, after listening to what some third party people said, we were lucky to not get stuck with the Red-Blue (Polar) list.

We did get the "no bump, flush, or system rebid." Without that, as in the Red-blue list, we would have had many Atlas guys on the street instead of Polar guys . We got a little bit better list integration than the Reb-blue list also. If you compare relative seniority and taking into account the "no bump, flush, or system rebid", we didn't do all that bad after dissecting the award from the arbiter. Still sucks, but not all that bad considering Polar originally had a signed agreement to essentially kill us until Bourne withdrew from it when he found out about it. That also helped in the arbitration BTW.

So, for whatever spin you want to count that as.

Tiger Guy

30th Nov 2006, 03:50

mercpc9

30th Nov 2006, 04:21

You did okay on the new list Mercpc9...you only lost 35 numbers by my count. (or a year, 2 months, and 1 day if you choose to look at it that way)

Plus, you are a young guy, so you should outlive most of the guys senior to you during your long and enjoyable career at Atlas.

Lost numbers are somewhat relative when 5 to 6 A/C are added to the equation.

Tried the math and couldn't duplicate it the way you stated a couple of different ways. Maybe you or I miscounted.

Maybe your just fishing on who I am. Why don't you just pull that trigger and lets see what happens? I'm really used to guns going off in close proximity to me and I still have the marks from the last couple of times. Rhetorical and physical.

MercP
You have to be kidding me you were going to leave out the guys who are over in Iraq and those doing their military duty? I know the military would have something to say about that. What were you doing going to the company for information? The company is to have NO imput whatsoever.
Why did you think you could leave out furloughed pilots? If I were a pilot neutral I would also take a negative view of any group that would have the gaul to try that. Possibly that is why the list came out the way it did.
What I understand about the F/E's is J.C. tried to terminate them because he could not furlough them. You seem to relish that fact they may be furloughed. Personally I never want to see anyone loose their job.

This is a little off subject, but it didn't seem to bother the Polar guys to list guys on military leave in Iraq and medical leave as SCABS during your strike.

Maybe I missed something? Where did I say anything about "going to the company for information?" In general, they won't talk to me any more. I might publish some of their public releases at best.

As far as "Why did you think you could leave out furloughed pilots?" The "no bump, flush or system rebid" part of the arbitration award did and the fact that Polar does not have any -200's for FE's thus allowing for their furlough. I can get into the potential awards of the Alliance grievance if you want, but Bobb might not like that. Especially since we have a clue on how it will come out.

I don't relish anyone getting furloughed or fired. It is contrary to my being and many Atlas guys will vouch for me on this. I just have less sympathy for those at Polar considering how they sh!t on us in a number of ways unity wise.

WhaleFR8

30th Nov 2006, 04:47

MercP
You have to be kidding me you were going to leave out the guys who are over in Iraq and those doing their military duty? I know the military would have something to say about that. What were you doing going to the company for information? The company is to have NO imput whatsoever.
Why did you think you could leave out furloughed pilots? If I were a pilot neutral I would also take a negative view of any group that would have the gaul to try that. Possibly that is why the list came out the way it did.
What I understand about the F/E's is J.C. tried to terminate them because he could not furlough them. You seem to relish that fact they may be furloughed. Personally I never want to see anyone loose their job.

Sure they were meant to be left out - the company staffing model cannot include them until they come back. There are actually only about 5 MIL if I remember right - the rest are like Homerbob - on long term medical. How do you suppose the company can include them in a staffing model.

Point of fact is that J.C. under oath said he wanted to furlough your FE's and Bobb, bob,a nd bobbin would not hear of it - they actually insisted that the FE's be kept on or terminated. - Go figure!

Tiger Guy

30th Nov 2006, 05:30

J.C. said WHAT under oath, now that IS funny. That SOB can't remember the last time he told the truth. I can't tell you how little credit I give to that statement.
The "No bump, NO flush " Merc seems so proud of, is standard merger policy. No big deal. All mergers should have that.
Only five military, were you planning to leave them out? A crewmember can not loose seniority while on military service. He has to be given a number and that is his on return. A furloughed crew member should gets his number and can't bump working crew but if he is the most senior on furlough he is the first recalled and slots into his number.
From what I hear those F/E's are collecting their pay. Go Figure
I don't want to see anyone furloughed or terminated. I have no respect for a person who wishes that on any crewmember at any airline.

mercpc9

30th Nov 2006, 06:48

ship's power

1st Dec 2006, 15:45

Point of fact is that J.C. under oath said he wanted to furlough your FE's and Bobb, bob,a nd bobbin would not hear of it - they actually insisted that the FE's be kept on or terminated. - Go figure!

Yes, JC probably did want to furlough the FE's, but he was heavy handed in the way he went about it. JC, (in his typical style) dictated to the FE's an insulting choice with no options, then gave them a slim time line to collectively decide. The insulted FE's thus voted (in effect allowing JC to fire them, gambling that their injustice would eventually be righted).. . . . Bobb, bob, and bobbin had nothing to do with it other than to humbly transmit the FE's decision back to JC.

Today, the FE's arbitrated win was simply the result of poor (JC) management technique.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2994186)

ship's power

1st Dec 2006, 16:35

The 60-70 PFEs are on the list as you say but will be re-furloughed and will most probably never come back due to the no-bump/no-flush clause and the fact that the classics are on the way out.

Note - Expected rulling - Furloughed, but nevertheless paid from the company's payroll (until Polar's CBA/scope clause is dissolved).

layinlow

2nd Dec 2006, 21:04

Right now they are not sure how many aircraft, if any, could be forced back onto Polar's certificate. I said it once and I will say it again, the arbitrator's ruling is way over due and conventional wisdom is that it probably went against the company again, and it takes a lot longer to arbitrate a decision against a company than it is against a union. It is gonna get interesting that is for sure. By the way, every flight from ICN to ANC done by Atlas is a Polar classic flight. I checked it out on the company web site. And Polaroids have no work! You gotta be kidding!!!!

layinlow

2nd Dec 2006, 21:13

For those interested that do not know the Polar contract. For Cato to furlough the FE's as suggested by a few atlas types, let me educate you to the contract.
In order to furlough the FE's they have to furlough all the FO's and even some Captains to get to the number 1 FE. Then the company has to send out letter to everyone and reinstating those who are FO qualified, and there are a few FEs that fill that bill. The furloughee has 7 days in which to respond. Then whomever is called back will have to have a sim ride and a line check before qualification. That effectively will shut the company down for a while. That is why Cato tried what he tried. This is irrespective of the scope grievance which like I said, is indicating the company lost a gain, at least I hope so. Although I will never grace AAWH's property again as an employee, I take great pride in making them toe the line in regards to the CBA, thereby sticking it to them.

WhaleDriver

3rd Dec 2006, 15:19

fr8_hound

3rd Dec 2006, 19:26

Wr8 has it correct; an arbitrator cannot force a company's hand and make it change its business plan. The 'painful' part is where the arbitrator has authority. While having no idea how many of the 57 terminated FE's decided to take the offer to return to the payroll (and the uncertain future that accompanies that decision), AAWH is on the hook for somewhere in the neighborhood of $400k a month if 50 or so of them returned. (A rather expensive neighborhood, considering you don't even get to live in the house you're paying for...) That seems to be a rather hefty price to pay for JC's poor business decision, not that I'm a business major, but...

It seems to me that if Atlas Air is still flying Classics full of Polar (even if it's disputedly Polar's freight or not), the wise thing to do would be to return those FE's to work and at least get some work for the money AAWH is paying them. But then we are talking about AAWH after all, aren't we?

But it also seems that many of them (if not all) are perfectly happy to collect a paycheck while allowing Atlas Air to reap all the 'glory'. Working for a living is a real drag, eh? :-)

Fr8_hound

fallguy747

10th Dec 2006, 04:37

Huh? What hearing were you at? The Polar business model sucks! It always has and it always will. You have never made a profit and I doubt you ever would have. Why do you think Atlas has changed you to an ACMI carrier. Cuz that is where the money is.
You do not know what you are talking about. The NEGOTIATING committee and some on this board said that Dr. Campbell has a bias against ACMI - and he does. If you have read ANY of his other testimony you will see that. NO ONE, even on this board has said that the arbitrator has any bias (although now it looks like he is biased to 'roids)

Once again a 'roid who does not know what he is talking about. John C. does not even talk to Cato. That falls to Bourne. It is a division of responsibility and leadership that you would not understand.

Are you that clueless that you somehow think Cato had anything to do with this list? That is typical of a 'roid. You know nothing yet you spout it at the top of your lungs.

Wow.!! drink that coolaide. Is that the reason Atlas bought Polar? Because Polar was losing money?. Let's get it together. This kind of conversation is exactly what mngmnt wants to hear.

747newguy

10th Dec 2006, 13:39

Wow.!! drink that coolaide. Is that the reason Atlas bought Polar? Because Polar was losing money?. Let's get it together. This kind of conversation is exactly what mngmnt wants to hear.

No Atlas didn't buy Polar just because it was loosing money, but because they could do it for $80 Mil. Them loosing money was just a bonus!

Po Boy

25th Dec 2006, 16:25

Merry Christmas to all Atlas and Polar crewmembers, lets make 2007 a great year, and stand together against managment!

And to all the other Freight Haulers here on the forums, Happy Holidays!

Whale Rider

29th Dec 2006, 19:03

Merry Christmas to all Atlas and Polar crewmembers, lets make 2007 a great year, and stand together against managment!
And to all the other Freight Haulers here on the forums, Happy Holidays!

Ditto again! Lets join forces not just for the good of our company, but for the good our industry! GO FRIEGHT DOGS!:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Tiger Guy

8th Jan 2007, 18:33

Just heard that the Arbitrator has ordered ALL furloughed Polar pilots reinstated and made whole as were the wrongfully terminated F/E's
this will not be one of Mr. JC's best days. He will have cost AAWH MILLIONS

layinlow

8th Jan 2007, 19:06

You are absolutely correct (I just got the word) and J.C. must have a major case of heartburn. The only thing left is the matter of the "alliance flying" and given the last two rulings, can there be any doubt of that outcome? It is time for the two councils to bury the hatchet, or at least place it where it belongs. Time couldn't be any more ripe than now.

cptvac

8th Jan 2007, 22:07

"Burying the hatchet where it belongs..." is the true test of Mr. Flynn and Mr. Dietrich. If these guys have any integrity, and DHL has benefitted from full disclosure, the ticket will be paid in full and the arbitrators' remedy will be implemented fully. This could result in a truly new culture with some trust between Management and Labor.

If the games continue with the current Cato attack on Polar Scope AND DHL doesn't mind sharing 49% of this liability as well as 49% of the bad labor relations these actions create it will be truly a shame.

I'm a pessimist. My guess is that they will relabel the alliance flying and claim there simply is no Polar flying being done "elsewhere"--Hope I'm wrong, but if Cato doesn't get the hook it seems likely. And foolish.

Congratulations Bobb and Robin...All of us Polaroids owe you two a debt of gratitude.

CPTvac

Furloughed

9th Jan 2007, 13:02

Does this mean Atlas will lose the Polar contract?

Heilhaavir

9th Jan 2007, 13:14

Does this mean Atlas will lose the Polar contract?

LOL!! Merc should be able to shed some light on what will happen next :) Happy New Year Kevin!

Congrats to all you PO guys out there :ok:

BELOWMINS

9th Jan 2007, 13:40

Sorry but Merc has been conspicuously among the missing lately.

layinlow

9th Jan 2007, 13:57

Lighten upon merc and whale guys. They have to feel low right now. And we will have to eventually work toward a common good.
I do not think that Atlas will lose the Polar contract. Polar even purged the OPs Specs on the classic; that according to Chris. What will happen next is anyone's guess, but I suspect they will try a buyout I sincerely hope so anyway) , however we are now in the cat bird seat. Given the paltry sums we FE's got has given us some insight to their rational for screwing the crew members. And while the company will stomp and scream, I am sure that our MEC along with Robin, will do the right thing. They have done a great job so far. As I mentioned before, the 900 lb. gorilla is still out there and that is the "alliance flying" If we win that one, and it looks increasingly likely we will, then hold on to your horses, it will quite a ride!

musick

9th Jan 2007, 18:10

To Merc and Whale---

A month or so ago, you alluded to a "Plan B" that AAWH would implement if Polar crews won the on going arbitrations.

Looks like the arbitrations were won by the Polar guys.

So, what is the "Plan B"?

Captain Edwin

fr8_hound

9th Jan 2007, 19:13

Wow, lemme get this straight..
So all of the terminated F/E's and F/O's at Polar have been 'made whole', with full backpay and benefits, 401 contributions, sick and vacation pay, all the while not contributing a single day of duty to Polar/AAWH? Coooooo-oool! :cool:
I heard through the grapevine that JC's annual entitlement was in the 7-figure range, prolly around the $1 million mark. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Sure makes one wonder how much of that was spent on the seedy outskirts of Houston, engaging in the illicit drug trade and SMOKING CRACK! (Plumber's Local 451, please forgive me.) Great job! I guess AAWH has made sooooo much that they can afford to pay people to stay home? Excellent management technique, I applaud your efforts. :D And just think how well it will look on his resume for his next job! "Yes sir, I cost AAWH several millions in unworked labor costs, not to mention untold millions by scaring off companies that didn't want to do business with a company with labor/management strife. Why, the opportunities alone should make your company envious!"
Maybe it really is a kharmic universe after all? :hmm:
Hope all the folks enjoy their backpay and have a Happy New Year!

layinlow

9th Jan 2007, 19:58

Yep, it sure is getting interesting and more so by the day. Personally I enjoy two checks. However, all is not well in the aviation world. I just got off the phone with a friend who is a LM with Focus, and he was put on LOA for two months.
As to J.C. every time we think he finally screwed up one to many times, he gets a pay raise. Something is going on and it ain't this phantom plan B as merc and whale have mentioned. Eventually something is going to happen and it better be soon. If this alliance flying goes by the wayside, AAWH will be in a real pickle of their own making. They should have just bought Polar and left us alone. Contrary to popular believe, we were making money.

mercpc9

10th Jan 2007, 00:23

Sorry but Merc has been conspicuously among the missing lately.
LOL!! Merc should be able to shed some light on what will happen next :) Happy New Year Kevin!

Congrats to all you PO guys out there
To Merc and Whale---

A month or so ago, you alluded to a "Plan B" that AAWH would implement if Polar crews won the on going arbitrations.

Looks like the arbitrations were won by the Polar guys.

So, what is the "Plan B"?

Captain Edwin

Acutally, a few of us (Polar and Atlas crews) have been very quiet due to a behind the scenes negotiated cease fire or truce if you want to call it that between the Polar and Atlas sides that post here. So far, we are about two months into it. Lets hope it continues and show some solidarity between our groups.

Considering the number of times Atlas management logs on here daily, it serves no purpose for the Atlas and Polar crews bashing each other back and fourth. Of course, if the crew bashing resumes, I can see it starting all over again.

So in that light, I will not comment on what the plan "B" is and will let time determine what that is. I don't want to ignite more of what we had before and hope the Polar side will do the same.

Congrats on the final award on that arbitration and I will leave it at that.
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

Po Boy

10th Jan 2007, 03:23

Acutally, a few of us (Polar and Atlas crews) have been very quiet due to a behind the scenes negotiated cease fire or truce if you want to call it that between the Polar and Atlas sides that post here. So far, we are about two months into it. Lets hope it continues and show some solidarity between our groups.

Considering the number of times Atlas management logs on here daily, it serves no purpose for the Atlas and Polar crews bashing each other back and fourth. Of course, if the crew bashing resumes, I can see it starting all over again.

So in that light, I will not comment on what the plan "B" is and will let time determine what that is. I don't want to ignite more of what we had before and hope the Polar side will do the same.

Congrats on the final award on that arbitration and I will leave it at that.
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

Let those who like to stir the pot continue, thanks for not getting into a long and drawn out debate about which side is right or wrong. :D

Whale Rider

10th Jan 2007, 04:57

Let those who like to stir the pot continue, thanks for not getting into a long and drawn out debate about which side is right or wrong. :D
Ditto! Guys? (Atlas/Polar) let 2007 be the year our two pilot groups usher in a new era as one strong unified pilot force! We've both suffered furloughs, strikes and other set backs in the past. Lets make those events exactly what they are.....HISTORY! Fly safe, honor thy bretheren and keep the faith!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

layinlow

10th Jan 2007, 12:57

I concur. The Polar/Atlas groups are going to have a very, rough field to plow and it will take the efforts of both parties to do the job.

flite idol

11th Jan 2007, 11:22

Lets hope this Christmas armistice lasts. When is the alliance arbitration due?

layinlow

11th Jan 2007, 14:56

The decision on the alliance flying is way over due. As with the other two arbitrations, I believe that when a decision goes against a company, the arbitrator takes a much longer time to render a solution than if it went against the union for obvious reasons. I could be wrong but given the delay on the last two grievances, it seems to play out that way. Being a Polaroid with a financial interest in the outcome, it may be only wishful thinking but I am keeping my fingers crossed.
I also hope this armistice as you call it last longer and becomes the standard. Both groups are really going to need it and soon, for when a decision does come down somebody is going to get hurt if we don't band together.

WhaleDriver

12th Jan 2007, 19:21

Both groups are really going to need it and soon, for when a decision does come down somebody is going to get hurt if we don't band together.
I think the Polar MEC needs to make a decision on that one. Latest word is they still resist a merger of the pilot groups, leaving us both open the the back and forth we've seen in the past.

Again, not saying they are doing anything wrong, just that it doesn't appear they want to do a merger when they feel they have the advantage, but when its not looking good, they're all for it.

BTW, they may change their minds after the info released today at the MIA crew meeting. I'm hearing it second hand, so I'll wait for someone to post that was there.

layinlow

13th Jan 2007, 14:38

When the company lets them know their future plans for operations and they haven't as of yet), then the Polar side will negotiate the merger. That is the responsible thing to do.

Furloughed

13th Jan 2007, 19:08

BTW, they may change their minds after the info released today at the MIA crew meeting. I'm hearing it second hand, so I'll wait for someone to post that was there.

Don't be a such a jerk - you have something to say then say it.

angryblackman

13th Jan 2007, 22:20

You jerks at Polar need to get a life!

No wonder I got so pissed at all of you. You made my life miserable.
With your lousy flying skills, it shouldn't surprise many of you why I busted so many of you idiots on type rating rides and line checks.

But I'm retired now, so I wish you the very best in you miserable life. You scumbags.

Sincerely yours,
Former VP Ops
Bill Watley

flite idol

14th Jan 2007, 00:57

Please ignore, he`s not angry, black or a man!

400drvr

14th Jan 2007, 02:18

Nice to see he is enjoying his retirement though.

sidman

14th Jan 2007, 05:13

I thought Angryblackman just hated Evergreen people...

Whale Rider

14th Jan 2007, 23:40

BTW, they may change their minds after the info released today at the MIA crew meeting. I'm hearing it second hand, so I'll wait for someone to post that was there.

Let me guess, massive fourloughs on the Atlas now???? Just asking????:rolleyes:

layinlow

15th Jan 2007, 20:45

There is no use in getting your thong in a bunch over something that may or may not happen. These guys change their minds about as often as the sunrises. I don't beleive anything this outfit says until it happens. And with the latest announce of an investor group buying 35% of AAWH stock, things will probably change a few more times. Just collect the paycheck and prepare for the worst.

Tiger Guy

15th Jan 2007, 21:59

Hey! Angerblackjerk. Who you trying to kid. Do you think Bill Whatley has forgotten how to spell his name. "Watley" give us a break.

Whale Rider

15th Jan 2007, 22:20

layinlow

15th Jan 2007, 22:34

Yep. sure am. I don't know what it means other than changes are on the way. Hopefully it will mean ta-ta Cato.

747rubani

17th Jan 2007, 03:36

Back to Results (http://javascript<b></b>:history.go(-1);)Search Again (http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/Search.aspx)Printer Friendly Page (http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/Job.aspx?liJobID=1453982&PrinterFriendly=true)Email a friend (http://www.flightglobal.com/Email/Email.aspx?type=job&id=1453982)

http://www.flightglobal.com/Assets/GetAsset.aspx?ItemID=13980 (http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/Jobredirector.aspx?type=L&jid=1453982)B747-400F First Officers - Stansted - Flight crew

Posted
16 Jan 07

Close date
13 Feb 07

Location
England

Contact
Charlotte Hale

Apply for this Job (http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/JobApplication.aspx?liJobID=1453982)

Job Description

B747-400F First Officers - Stansted - Flight crew

Vacancies exist for the following staff, based at STANSTED UK
B747-400F First Officers
The minimum qualifications are:- Total Time 3000hrs with 500hrs on multi-engine turbine
Valid CAA/JAA ATPL with Class 1 Medical
The right to work in the UK
Preference will be given to pilots with Jet Airliner experience
Global Supply Systems is an expanding cargo operator flying to world wide destinations with scheduled services to the Far East, India, the Middle East, Europe and the USA.
CVs should be sent to Charlotte Hale, Global Supply Systems, at the address, Telephone, or Email.
Applicants not meeting the above minimum qualifications are unlikely to receive a reply.
To view the advertisers contact details click here (http://www.flightglobal.com/JobContact/2007/01/16/1453982/B747-400F+First+Officers+-+Stansted+-+Flight+crew.html).
Apply for this Job (http://www.flightglobal.com/Jobs/JobApplication.aspx?liJobID=1453982)

mercpc9

18th Jan 2007, 06:01

Before everyone jumps at their resumes, you might want to check out the postings on GSS
on the Flyme and GSS thread.

Click Here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3074971#post3074971)

DHC2 Driver

24th Jan 2007, 23:39

So how did that "third" arbitration come out? Any news?

Thanks to all of you who wished me a happy new year. Standby here comes that 'plan B.'

ship's power

25th Jan 2007, 03:46

It appears that AAWW management has consumed a little "crow", and that all of Polar's fired / furloughed crewmembers are now orderd re-employed, with no-one remaining on the street. Our greatest wish now is that all crewmembers at Atlas Air remain intact. If this occurs, then a true celebration for all of us at AAWW .

Note to Management - grow these #%$^ two airlines and the hell with plan "B"!

Heilhaavir

25th Jan 2007, 04:11

[QUOTE=ship's power;3088152]It appears that management has consumed a little "crow", and that all of Polar's fired / furloughed crewmembers are now orderd employed, with no-one remaining on the street. Our greatest wish now is that all crewmembers at Atlas Air will remain intact. If this occurs, then a true celebration for all at AAWW .

I certainly wish the "reinstated" pilots all of the above, but somehow I can't see everyone of them remaining on the property for too long.

To the recalled/reinstated that are currently employed elsewhere: think before you quit your new employer to go back to PO. JC screwed you once, he'll do it again. Take whatever he gives you ($) but keep your present job until you really know what's going on or rather, until you have some assurance that you won't be hitting the street AGAIN soon!

I sincerely hope you'll prove me wrong and hope it all works out for you guys and gals, but I wouldn't trust JC one sec! If there isn't a plan B in place yet, they're most definitely working on it.

Good luck all!

layinlow

28th Jan 2007, 13:49

I concur with that last post. From the info we have obtained the third arbitration has ben won and the parties are waiting for the for the parties to hammer out some sort of mutual agreement. However, that isn't happening and everyone is waiting for the arbitrator to make the final decision. But don't jump up and down just yet. 355 is in SIN and going to the Polar certificate. It is expected to fly 180 hours a month, but with no manuals, no ops specs for the classic, no instructors and no check airman, it ought to interesting how they are planning on doing it. I am sure that Cato et.al. has something up their sleeve for everyone involved. The previous post is correct. There is no way a company can absorb the costs that they are occurring every month, especially for a bottom feeder like AAWH in the slow time of the year. Some one has to go and given the past actions by management they are going to try again to dump the Polar people and keep the Atlas crews to fly the Polar trips. I am sure that eventually they will figure out a way. Things are going to interesting now. I am just going to sit back and watch, collect my money and wonder if Cato will get the boot over this boondoggle.

Heilhaavir

28th Jan 2007, 14:47

mercpc9

29th Jan 2007, 03:45

If you don't mind me asking, which side has come out the winner of the 3rd arbitration (Kasher)?
The arbiter denied the grievance.

Allowing for further Alliance flying, but I think Mr. Cato has decided to begin Atlas scheduled service by Polar MEC Chairman Bobb Henderson's comments.

I web searched the Polar VARS phone number and recorded it for you once I found it again. Search engines make the world real small. Couldn't find the ALPA .rm file on it. Forgive the bleeps I inserted on the phone numbers given out in the message.

IN MP3 FORMAT (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/01252007henderson.mp3)

I have a few differences to a few things said on it, but I will let that coast in view of the ongoing truce and hope those that are curious investigate for themselves outside of it's confines.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

Heilhaavir

29th Jan 2007, 03:59

Thks K, I knew the answer. I was just surprised at the second and third phrases of Dr T's post.

layinlow

29th Jan 2007, 16:19

I got it from someone in on the negotiations. Frankly I could give a darn as long as they keep giving me money.

free at last

30th Jan 2007, 03:07

You won't get paid long the folks in NY, are a lot smarter than you and the rest of you'r colleques give them credit. I am sure this is not you'r first airline you helped try to shut down!

layinlow

30th Jan 2007, 14:18

I am not shutting down anything. We are just making them stick to the CBA that they agreed to. Nothing more, nothing less. If they had bothered to adhere to the contract none of this would have happened.
As for me, I am glad of their position and I have moved on to a much better job with a much, much better carrier that is expanding that I wouldn't have otherwise. And guess what, they work well with the union, not contentious like AAWH.

Heilhaavir

30th Jan 2007, 15:39

Let's not turn this into another childish rhetoric thread.

I'm glad you guys got the money that was owed to you. As you say the CBA had to be honored and the arbitrator(s) helped you do that. As per the CBA they could not not furlough out of seniority. When the Classics were parked, all FEs would have had to be kept on the payroll until the last junior guy/girl transitioned to the 400. Also all FEs that met the mins to go to the right seat, seniority permitting , had to be trained. So JC tried to save some money and terminated all FEs that didn't meet the mins to upgrade. It didn't work and the arbitrator(s) made him reinstate them all. In the end JC didn't lose anything since he would have had to pay you guys as long as someone junior to you had to be cross trained. He merely gave you back what he was supposed to give you all along.

Now, the Kasher arbitration was the most important one. If he had ruled in PO's favor then AAWH would have had to bring back airplanes on the PO side until a merger would take place. That was the one you needed to win to get everybody back in the seat. It didn't turn out that way, he ruled against you, and I'm sure your MEC will fight it while AAWH will do all it can to keep the planes where they are (ok maybe minus 355). Will you win at the end? I don't know. Will everybody be recalled? I don't think so and, as I've written in a previous post, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. But you need to understand the difference between "reinstatement" and "recall". You guys were wrongfully terminated and were reinstated. The FOs benefited from that ruling, great. Back pay for them is way better than expected but the majority might not get their job back, at least right now.

I've obviously been gone far too long to know exactly what's happening there anymore (am I glad I left before all this s#*t happened even though I'd still have a job), but I still keep in touch with many of you. Just last week an FO called me to tell me he had just gotten off the phone with the CP to check in for a class date and the answer he got was "I don't know what your MEC is telling you but there is no class date for you, you're not coming back".

Wish you all the best and I'll repeat myself to the ones who found a job elsewhere, DON'T QUIT your new employer for now. Take the $$ while their coming and see what happens next.

Cheerios!

DHC2 Driver

30th Jan 2007, 18:23

Let's not turn this into another childish rhetoric thread. AMEN!!

So JC tried to save some money and terminated all FEs that didn't meet the mins to upgrade. Actually not true according to others in Purchase. The FEs were offered a furlough and the Polar MEC rejected it - so the FEs were terminated.

Now, the Kasher arbitration was the most important one. VERY TRUE!!

I'm sure your MEC will fight it Hard to fight binding arbitration - but maybe.

Will you win at the end? I don't know. Will everybody be recalled? I don't think so watch out for plan B

Heilhaavir

30th Jan 2007, 19:47

AMEN!!

Actually not true according to others in Purchase. The FEs were offered a furlough and the Polar MEC rejected it - so the FEs were terminated.

Hard to fight binding arbitration - but maybe.

I'll give you that, as I've been out far too long to know what exactly is said or going on there. My point was that the FEs' back pay did not cost much to AAWH since, if they had furloughed in seniority per the CBA, they would have had to pay them until the most junior guy/girl is out of training. So really they're merely giving them what is owed to them, not the victory some are claiming, simply a "just" ruling/decision...

Agreed, it's hard to fight a binding arbitration. So let's say they'll make believe they do to keep the troups happy? :E

Good luck to your side too.

DHC2 Driver

30th Jan 2007, 20:53

Actually the problem is and always has been that there are too many "sides" to this whole story. I just wish we could have all gotten together in the beginning when I proposed that we put the Polar communication guy on our committee and our guy on their comms committee. Unfortunately that died a quick death. I guess like all pilots someone saw a way to get a leg up on someone else (or like all humanity for that matter) and leaped at it. Too bad - that was what the company was counting on. And it worked well for them; and is still working for them.

layinlow

31st Jan 2007, 12:39

I agree about the childish thread. I wasn't trying to start something, just give an observation. As for the FE's being offerred a furlough, true, but with a caveat. The union had to agree not to contest AAWH's plans on transferring Polar assets (whatever they were) to Atlas, which was against our CBA. So the FE's had two choices, one get furloughed never to be recalled, or take the termination and our chances the management was wrong. Given the choices, the latter was the only choice.
But Atlas is getting their pound of flesh now. When were terminated we drew unemployment and when we were reinstated, AAWH deducted the amount of unemployment from our checks to repay the state. Now our W-2 show us being paid the unemployment, and they never did pay back the state, although that was the agreement. If effect, we are having to pay tax on money we never received. Just so you know what kind of slie both unions are dealing with. Thank goodness I am over here where there is integrety.

DHC2 Driver

31st Jan 2007, 17:20

As for the FE's being offerred a furlough, true, but with a caveat. The union had to agree not to contest AAWH's plans on transferring Polar assets (whatever they were) to Atlas, which was against our CBA. So the FE's had two choices, one get furloughed never to be recalled, or take the termination and our chances the management was wrong. Given the choices, the latter was the only choice. Yup that is what I heard. I didn't figure it as a player at the time as the assets in questions were primarily Atlas assets being transferred back to Atlas.

But Atlas is getting their pound of flesh now. When were terminated we drew unemployment and when we were reinstated, AAWH deducted the amount of unemployment from our checks to repay the state. That was predictable by the agreement. "Made whole" and "re-instated" are quite a bit different from "reimbursed all back pay" and "recalled." it is all in the whimp-words that JC uses.

Now our W-2 show us being paid the unemployment, and they never did pay back the state, although that was the agreement. If effect, we are having to pay tax on money we never received. Not sure that equation works. Did you get the money or not?

As far as integrity I totally agree with you. Integrity, leadership, stewardship, business plan, honesty, ethics, - all those are words that are foreign to Atlas corporate culture. It would be lovely to think that the new third floor will change that culture and impose it on the second floor.

Good luck to you wherever you are. And good luck to the rest of us poor slobs too old to go anywhere else.

layinlow

31st Jan 2007, 19:33

No, we didn't get the money. they kept it to "repay the state". But accoding to the state they never did. Oh well, and thanks again for the words. If you are still at AAWH then I wish you all the best.

Furloughed

31st Jan 2007, 23:15

Yup that is what I heard. I didn't figure it as a player at the time as the assets in questions were primarily Atlas assets being transferred back to Atlas.

It was about the Polar franchise expanding via the use of Atlas crews to fly Polar freight on Polar routes under a Polar call sign while Polar pilots were actively being furloughed

free at last

31st Jan 2007, 23:55

How about Polar crews flying Atlas 400/200, transfered to the Polar side and you guys where real happy to fly the aircraft, while Atlas crews are on the street . Furthermore all Polar 400 were originally slotted for Atlas Air, when GE picked the slots from Atlas, and the rest is history. And you are still flying one of the Atlas Air B747-400 N496MC. MC Stands for Micheal Choudry, creator and the hard working Chairman of Atlas Air Inc. God Rest His Soul

DHC2 Driver

1st Feb 2007, 00:32

It was about the Polar franchise expanding via the use of Atlas crews to fly Polar freight on Polar routes under a Polar call sign while Polar pilots were actively being furloughed ...ummmm I'm not quite sure how that relates to the assets that we were discussing - but ok.

ship's power

1st Feb 2007, 03:40

MC Stands for Micheal Choudry, creator and the hard working Chairman of Atlas Air Inc. God Rest His Soul

A curious question for the group. . . . In retrospect, what do think Michael Chowdry would think of all of this if he were alive today? Would he have bought Polar? Was he planning to buy Polar (or was Polar's purchase simply dictated by GE?)?

Mr. Chowdry had died six years ago - 01/2001 (I can remember seeing the smoke from my DEN hotel room), / Polar was purchased about six months later - 07/2001.

DHC2 Driver

1st Feb 2007, 04:27

I think MC wanted it all - I think that buying Polar was next in line after his failed attempt to sell us to FedEx and be the President of FedEx World Wide - that is where the negotiations supposedly broke down.

The deal for Polar was 84 mil with 30 mil of forgiven debt and debt free airplanes. This smacks of Michael - he always wanted to deal with the big dogs. This is one reason he was so successful selling his product in Asia. And he was a fan of good deals. 54 mil for an entire airline was about what he paid for one of his converted freighters 534MC I think - so I am sure he would have seen it as a good deal even as a break up. His death probably put the whole thing into the tailspin it has been in since then. He was no dummy and I bet he saw the writing on the wall. But who can say.....

He was a great salesman. But he thought all of us (pilots) were glorified truck drivers. I wonder what he thinks now?

knehibiju

1st Feb 2007, 05:23

(I can remember seeing the smoke from my DEN hotel room),

Must have been one vary tall hotel. :confused:

DHC2 Driver

1st Feb 2007, 06:18

Must have been one vary tall hotel.
Well Front Range Airport is about 20 miles from Commerce City and much closer to DIA although there were few hotels that close to DIA at the time. Probably could have seen the smoke from downtown Denver from one of the high floors - still would have been 20+ miles away.

trashhauler

1st Feb 2007, 14:29

Free at last
When did you guys go on strike? I certainly don't remember it. Either way, you better start looking forward, not back, you might just get hit by the JC truck coming down the road

ship's power

1st Feb 2007, 16:00

Well Front Range Airport is about 20 miles from Commerce City and much closer to DIA although there were few hotels that close to DIA at the time. Probably could have seen the smoke from downtown Denver from one of the high floors - still would have been 20+ miles away.

On a crystal clear clean winter's day in Colorado, absolutely!

(the crash was also breaking news on local TV at the time)

ship's power

1st Feb 2007, 16:21

I think MC wanted it all . . . His death probably put the whole thing into the tailspin it has been in since then. He was no dummy and I bet he saw the writing on the wall. But who can say.....

In my humble opinion, Atlas's kink was with his successor - Rick Shuyler. I had strongly felt that Chowdry did not trust (or like) Mr. Shuyler, however he had instead kept Shuyler around solely for his financial expertise. I suspect that Rick Shuyler was OK, as long as MC was around to keep him on a leash!

Atlas's shares had traded then at about $36/share. . . .today. . .about $47/share.

DHC2 Driver

1st Feb 2007, 17:14

Well at the time we were told that Tricky Ricky and Chowdry were best friends and that they had some previous history togehter.

Schuyler had no financial expertise.

Atlas shares traded at almost $65 when Chowdry was alive.

And we never went on strike trashhauler. Freeatlast said "on the street" meaning furloughed.

free at last

2nd Feb 2007, 00:40

That is exactly the point , the Atlas crews suffered, on furlough!!!!, while the Polar crews went to the Bank often, with a pre- strike Polar pay increase of 3+% to keep the Atlas/Polar fleet operational.So move on and make your company successfull. It is possible you know!!:)

trashhauler

2nd Feb 2007, 01:32

Ah contrair my friend. The 3% was incentive for us to extend the CBA negotiations until they could work with your council. Then they, reneged (that was our first indication of the slime we were working with and you were suffering under). Just because Delta furloughed did not mean that I did not fly Delta. Same with ya'll. Now had you struck, then that would have been another baliwick. I would have been right beside you.

knehibiju

2nd Feb 2007, 02:55

So, are you guys going to start beating each other up again over the same stuff? From watching the trade rags and DOT filings, it seems that Polar / Atlas is got some bigger fish to fry than serving another history lesson. :ugh:

fr8_hound

2nd Feb 2007, 04:24

AMEN, brother! Sheesh, can't we let sleeping freight dogs lie? AAWH has always BEEN the enemy, will always BE the enemy, and will do whatever necessary to foment dissension in the ranks and keep two fellow pilot groups at each other until they rend each other to pieces. The past has passed, let it go.
To use a well-worn phrase coined by our down-on-his-luck friend in LA, "Can't we all just get along?":rolleyes:

free at last

2nd Feb 2007, 05:10

Amen!:) :) :) :)

Intruder

2nd Feb 2007, 05:40

Atlas's shares had traded then at about $36/share. . . .today. . .about $47/share.

Atlas shares traded at almost $65 when Chowdry was alive.

IIRC, the top of Atlas share price was above $82...

However, those were "old" Atlas shares, which are ALL worth exactly $0.00 today. It is the "new" Atlas shares that are worth $47 today.

Also IIRC, the total number of old Atlas shares issued was about 38 million. How many new shares are outstanding?

trashhauler

2nd Feb 2007, 14:51

I am not rying to stir anything up, but quell it. JC and company are the enemy look back only at your peril.
personally I want every to prosper, Polar and Atlas.

DHC2 Driver

8th Feb 2007, 00:35

So how is the first part of plan B?

flite idol

8th Feb 2007, 01:17

Furloughs suggested by JC and MB two weeks ago. Polar/Atlas 400 swaparoo going on. A classic to Polar, 355 out of the desert and back on line at Atlas to cover expanded South American lift. I give up!

atlast

10th Feb 2007, 16:19

The Future is DHL. The future starts December 1st.

AAWH management need a merged CBA in place and we musn't let them ram one down our throats.
Dec 1st is not long at all and the Atlas/Polar negotiating committees hold the key card, "DEC1st"!
Dec 1st is the key to getting a great CBA that'll sort out everything and then two great, professional pilot groups can get on with the job at hand.

The future is bright. The future starts December 1st.

knehibiju

11th Feb 2007, 14:01

Talked to a friend of mine and he says that things are starting to move again. He didn’t elaborate much, but glade to hear it. I’d hate to see too good airlines destroyed while trying to find common ground and tripping over it at the same time.;)

Whale Rider

15th Feb 2007, 14:47

115 pages of Griping on this thread and what for? NOTHING! :yuk:

mercpc9

16th Feb 2007, 13:43

I think Mr. Cato enjoyed it. They used to check in here about 4 to 8 times a day from the Puzzle Palace in Purchase NY. Providing him a measuring stick on how well he was tweaking our groups with his latest actions. http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

Furloughed

17th Feb 2007, 16:45

ship's power

18th Feb 2007, 01:20

"You would know ...."

Stuff your snipes, furloughed. We're all the butt of Mr.Cato. Mecpc9 and everyone else in this organization!

mercpc9

18th Feb 2007, 02:58

You would know ....

Actually, I would. Not by way of your insinuation though.

Just like I know you posted from Chicago today, along with a few other things.

Just defending myself, not interested in fighting.http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

trashhauler

19th Feb 2007, 15:36

And just when I thought this thread was over! Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

jocko2000

21st Feb 2007, 11:43

Listen, as a Polar captain I realize that tensions are high. Until we start acting together towards common goals the company will always prevail. It is not about whether Polar was going to fly Atlas freight years ago or whether Atlas crews flew our freight during the strike. For the common good that needs to be put behind us. We are the ones who are fighting. We are the ones being damaged. Lets let this stuff go and move on towards common goals. Trust me, this is the way of the future. I've deadheaded on Atlas many of times and it was a pleasureable experience. Its time to trust one another and move on. It is hard with human nature to forgive and forget, that is just the way we are wired. I propose that we do just that. If the company sensed that we are on the same page then we all truly will win. Until then, only a select few will benefit. That is not ment as a jab at the Atlas group or Polar, its just how it will work out. Lets face it, this job is just a job. We all do it so we can be home with our families on our days off. That is what we have in common. Lets work toward accomplishing a better home life and it will bring about a better work life, I guarantee it. Remember, we all just work together. Just a week or two out of the month. Lets not let this define who we are, its just a relative small part of our being. Good luck. Most people argue and battle about things they cannot control. What they don't realize is that they bring down the people around them. They affect people and do not even know it. Try to be aware of that the next time you are in the cockpit complaining. Later.

DHC2 Driver

21st Feb 2007, 12:21

Like the Captain in Incirlik who recently (within the last two weeks) tried to create an incident and get himself thrown off the Atlas plane he was supposed to deadhead on. He continually berated the Atlas crew to the embarassement of himself and his crew. When the Atlas crew refused to engage, he removed himself from the flight.

-- Or the person (one assumes a Polar person) who put an unspeakable link on a public computer in ICN and labeled it "Atlas Scabs." This was also done recently.

Police your own fellow pilots first then extend the olive branch! Pretty hard to be talking peace and tranquility out of one side of your mouth and not following through on the other.

WhaleDriver

21st Feb 2007, 15:41

Jocko2000, up to today you've been part of the silent majority. Welcome. Good wordage, and very similar to the words I heard from most Polaroids, but your councils actions say something completely different.

Polar MEC has filed "another" grievance, demanding four of Atlas"s planes. This time they want -400's. Your MEC is still fighting the merger, which most agree would be a good thing for both councils. If Polar doesn't get all the DHL flying, then your MEC is doing all they can to tank the deal completely. Would you trust someone trying to do all these things against you? I know all these are "supposedly" good for the Polaroids, but I think their dual purpose, help Polaroids, hurt Atlas.

I agree, I've gotten along with 98% of the Polaroids I've meet in the last few years. The 2% negatives are people that give Atlas guys the silent treatment. No problem. When DHing, I've been treated with respect and as a guest. The same treatment I've given to Polaroids. Interesting, when the conversation gets to Atlas/Polar stuff, we both end up shaking our heads wondering where it went wrong and why.

Whale Rider

21st Feb 2007, 19:50

Just heard 3 Atlas Classics to be parked and 19 to be furoughed. Can anyone confirm?

WhaleDriver

21st Feb 2007, 19:55

No parking of any Classics. They have found work for the three they planned on parking/selling later this year. Adjusting for the loss of two classics in the last 18 months, 19 FE's will be furloughed. Those are the plans.....everything can change at a moments notice?

They are talking about hiring some pilots later this year to cover attrition and retirements. The wild card is how many ANC pilots are in line to be hired by UPS up at ANC.

ship's power

22nd Feb 2007, 15:50

"MEC is still fighting the merger, which most agree would be a good thing for both councils.. . . I know all these are "supposedly" good for the Polaroids, but I think their dual purpose, help Polaroids, hurt Atlas."

One reason the Polar MEC is fighting this merger, is to keep the Polar scope clause intact. Polar's scope clause was directly responsible for 100 or so out of work crewmembers to be restored. Does not Polar's MEC have a responsibility to keep their membership employed (as does the Atlas MEC with theirs)?

With regards to AAWW's threatened "furlough game of musical chairs", many of one or the other group will die. . . . whose MEC soap will get you cleaner?

trashhauler

22nd Feb 2007, 17:37

You have that exactly right ship, the only thing the Polar MEC wants is to make the company adhere to the scope clause, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, when you feed from the bottom of the trough, someone is going to get hurt, and therein lies the crux of the problem. I am sure that both MEC's don't want to see anyone lose their job, but it is going to happen. However, each MEC has the responsibility to protect their CBA's. They are vastly different and it is not going to be easy. In the end I am sure that I will never see the inside of another 747 cockpit, I have resigned myself to that fact, but I do want to see my bretherin prosper, both Polar and Atlas.
So keep it civil, respect the other guy's opinion, and look out for the slime from Purchase! Maybe all can get through this.

DHC2 Driver

3rd Mar 2007, 02:18

the only thing the Polar MEC wants is to make the company adhere to the scope clause, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, when you feed from the bottom of the trough, someone is going to get hurt, and therein lies the crux of the problem. I am sure that both MEC's don't want to see anyone lose their job, but it is going to happen. However, each MEC has the responsibility to protect their CBA's. Atlas VARS March 02, 2007 mp3 downloadable (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/march022007.mp3)

Atlas VARS March 02, 2007 in streaming mp3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/march022007.m3u)

I don't believe Bob is "protecting his CBA or his pilot group" I believe he has his own agenda. I have always believed that. NO slam intended. And not to be argumentative but there is more of a reason.

whaledriver101

3rd Mar 2007, 04:32

DHC2 Driver

3rd Mar 2007, 14:58

After hearing the Vars I'm kind of curious on what the Atlas and DHL MEC have to talk about. Atlas MEC needs reminding that DHL bought half of Polar,, not Atlas. What did the MEC's talk about??? If you think the companys are merging your "whistling dixie". They bought Polar in 2001, Management would have merged them already if they wanted them merged.Actually not true. What DHL bought was 49% of an as yet to be formed company called "Polar World Wide." This company will apparently contain the current fleet from Polar and all the certificates. What it will not contain is pilots. The pilots to fly the "Polar World Wide" aircraft will come from the merged Atlas/Polar seniority list. So, discussion with the leadership of that merged list is a good idea from the DHL perspective.

The Atlas MEC met with DHL MEC because they were invited.

And the company (Atlas) has consistantly said (since Nov 2004) that they intend to merge the seniority lists. At various times both pilots groups have said that they don't believe it, but the company has been consistent on this one thing at least.

What the Polar MEC needs to remember is in your guote They bought Polar in 2001 ......Atlas bought Polar not the other way around.

layinlow

3rd Mar 2007, 16:11

There you guys go again. Give it a rest will ya? You have got a whole lot bigger fish to fry. Once a bottom feeder, always a bottom feeder. Sheesh!!!

knehibiju

3rd Mar 2007, 18:27

“What it will not contain is pilots.”

Well, not quite right ether. The petition to move routes, rights and authorities from Polar Cargo too Polar World Wide has been made to the DOT, but approximately 72 hours later an amendment was filed to clarify that the crews and their CBA go with. Not disclosing any secrets here. It’s all public knowledge.

“The pilots to fly the "Polar World Wide" aircraft will come from the merged Atlas/Polar seniority list.”

If and when there is a combined or merged if you will, contract. No secret here ether or shouldn’t be to the Polar / Atlas folks. If you are a card carrying ALPA member, you have access to the Merger and Fragmentation policy. I may have no vested interest in this, but I am an ALPA member in good standing and plan on keeping it that way, so there will be no quotes from the policy. If you pay your dues, you have the right to the news.

“So, discussion with the leadership of that merged list is a good idea from the DHL perspective.”

Right up to the point that it looks like it’s not going to work according to their time line. We all would like to think that our respective airlines are the end all to air commerce and our MEC / LEC has the master plan to keep member and company pointed in the right direction, but on a global scale, you ether work together or you get cut out. DHL’s proposed partial purchase of a US citizen company through its North American US citizen company opens the door to a vast number of possibilities and opportunities, plane and crew is simply frosting on the cake. You really didn’t think that DHL is going to hang their hat on one hook do you? If you folks don’t want to go through that door with them, then I’m sure that a competitor(s) will if they get the invite.

“The Atlas MEC met with DHL MEC because they were invited.”

Whether this true or not, DHL will do what any other company would do in this boat. They will try to engage all parties in discussion, and if that doesn’t work then individual parties. If that doesn’t work, then all bets are off and they will look for another play ground with a different sand box. Good luck.

Po Boy

4th Mar 2007, 05:22

When will this end??:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

layinlow

5th Mar 2007, 20:10

I agree, it is about time this thread gets dropped:ugh:

Intruder

5th Mar 2007, 21:48

Nobody is forcing anyone else to read it... Just don't click on it!

DHC2 Driver

5th Mar 2007, 23:05

At the risk of flogging the deceased Equus caballus, I must say that it seems like anytime the tone of the thread goes the least little bit against one group they seem to have a penchant for calling for it to be deleted or closed. Yet I noticed when the “scab announcer” posted his vitriol on here, there was a dearth of the same type of comments from that same group. Go figure.

layinlow

12th Mar 2007, 15:47

WhaleDriver

12th Mar 2007, 17:10

And you believe that explaination. I've got a bridge I'll sell you.

mercpc9

12th Mar 2007, 20:48

Just received the new Polar VARS, verrrrrry interesting. It seems that DHL was under the impression that the two airlines have already merged and Bourne was selected to be the spoksman for both groups. Henderson put them straight. I wonder where DHL got that impression. Hm-m-m-m-m

I know that we have been trying to have a cease fire here, but I do have to take exception to a lot of what Bobb has said on his message. I will only touch on a couple of things about his message and not dwell on a number of other things that should be addressed also.

Actually, Dave Bourne was selected by the Global Pilots Alliance Advisory Board to represent the Atlas and Polar pilots. He did not solicit the position. They extended it to Bourne knowing full well who Bobb Henderson is and who he represents along with the status of the merger. Read what you want into that. It might not be what you want to hear.

Bobb's own self admittance that he crashed the meeting proved to be yet another example of how civil the Atlas MEC has been to the Polar MEC. Instead of having him removed, they let him stay. That proved even more beneficial because of how he then behaved to other airline pilot groups in attendance. As an example during the meeting: while Bobb was talking to one of the invited DHL MEC members in a group, he was unaware that one of the invited ABX council was standing there as he berated ABX and called them the "S" word comparing the ABX-DHL situation to the Atlas-Polar situation. I applaud the ABX member for not punching Bobb in the mouth, although I would understand if he did. There are others, but this one really stood out from the others.

For the guys in Europe that might be interested. They may not want to spend the money calling the phone vars from over there.
http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

Polar March 7, 2007 streaming MP3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/polarvars03072007.m3u)

Atlas March 2, 2007 streaming MP3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/march022007.m3u)

penguin22

13th Mar 2007, 00:33

Would somebody kindly extend an invitation to Mr. Henderson to EXPLAIN his comment concerning ABX pilots? I would LOVE to hear his views on the matter and where he might have got that impression!

DHC2 Driver

13th Mar 2007, 04:35

I agree that Bobb has some explaining to do. He is fighting hard to keep his group together and solid behind him. To do that though, he has become exactly what he is fighting - which is often the case in politics. He has now blatantly lied to his group on their VARS.

I actually know a bit about this one and what Merc says is true. Bourne was initially invited by the DHL folks, and he MADE IT A POINT TO TELL THEM WHO BOBB WAS, AND WHAT HE DID FOR THE POLAR FOLKS.

So Bobb is being disengenuous when he says that the they did not know who he was when they invited Bourne to his meeting. I hope he gets what he wants - unfortunately plan B has not even come to a pus filled pimple yet. Rest assured that if he keeps up his antics it most certainly will.

whaledriver101

13th Mar 2007, 06:03

penguin22

13th Mar 2007, 10:50

“Merc,, Ive never heard of any Global pilots board.”

whaledriver101, allow me to enlighten you...
Global Cargo Pilot Alliance
http://www.globalcargopilots.org/ (http://www.globalcargopilots.org/)
(you may notice that the current Chairman is with Teamsters Local 1224. That’s the ABX pilots’ union)

Now go tell Bobb that at least one ABX pilot is awaiting an explanation….
”as he berated ABX and called them the "S" word comparing the ABX-DHL situation to the Atlas-Polar situation.”

DHC2 Driver

13th Mar 2007, 21:38

Merc,, Ive never heard of any Global pilots board. Bourne doesnt represent Polar pilots in any way shape or form!!

As far as Bob "fighting" to keep us together and solid behind him. Trust me,,, We are VERY solid and behind him. He does EXCELLENT work for his pilot group. Glad we have him.<sigh> yet another mis-informed Polar pilot. You are merging with Atlas, we have a block space agreement with DHL and you have NEVER HEARD of the Global Cargo Pilots Alliance. Dang! You guys have won a lot of battles and yes Bobb has been very good for you so far. In doing so, however, he has pissed a LOT of people off. People from around the Globe know his name and are aware of his actions. At some point he will piss off the right people and none of you will have a job. Personally I don't understand why that has not yet happened. He plays a dangerous game and plays very close to the line. I hope it doesn't get that far.

Just in case folks were not aware of his latest actions:

Recent Polar grievance to take Atlas Jobs again in PDF (http://cptaudio.com/polargrievanceandcompanyresponse.pdf)

Bourne IS going to represent you soon. You don't seriously think that the Atlas pilots will vote in Bobb after all he has done for them do you?

Good luck to us all - it is long past time to bury the hatchett but if Bobb continues in this manner it will never happen.

layinlow

14th Mar 2007, 16:42

Just when I thought it was getting civil. Dang!!!

DHC2 Driver

14th Mar 2007, 20:46

In no way shape or form is it requesting furloughs on the Atlas side. No one wants that. There should be plenty of ACMI flying available that Atlas should not have to furlough anyone. Until they start parking the classics next year, then I predict massive furloughs on both sides. This is simply untrue as Bobb has said many times that he thought that Atlas should share in the furloughs even though it was the Polar aircraft that were going away (or the Atlas aircraft being operated by Polar). In fact this is one of his major objectives, as it has been in all his talks with the company, with the ALPA executive council, and with the Atlas MEC.

As far as the ACMI flying, I have several e-mails from Polar guys saying the WHOLE reason that they do not like Atlas or the thought of being Atlas pilots is that they figure ACMI companies are scab companies and anyone flying under their banner is a scab. You folks who posted that e-mail trail know who you are. Should I post the copies here?

None of this is said with any animosity. That is all pretty much gone. Rather, it is important to both groups to get to the real truth. What I have said now and in the past is from things I have personally heard or personally have knowledge of.

I have maybe not been so good at delineating what is my opinion, but that should be obvious. Just like it is my opinion that not one single Atlas pilot will ever vote for Bobb, Bob, or Robin, it is my opinion that if this keeps up Atlas will dump the whole group and see you all in court in a dozen years or so. You have to ask yourself; why would they put a 5 Bil. 20 year deal in jeopardy for 190 pilots? As I said before it is a fine line ---

whaledriver101

14th Mar 2007, 21:38

DHC2 Driver

15th Mar 2007, 01:09

DHC2 guy are you for real?? I mean it,, is there something wrong with you??? In the 6 years ive been here Ive never heard any Polar pilot talk about ACMI flying being "scab" flying. In fact,, we welcome ANY additional flying whether it be ACMI or whatever. We really dont talk about ACMI flying at all since we dont do any of it.

As far as talking about scabs. The only scabs we talk about(and its rare) are the Atlas dirtbags that crossed the Polar picket line. I hope they are "blacklisted" for life.Well I could send you the e-mail string in question if you wanted. Just send me a valid e-mail address. There are some pretty well known Polar guys on there, many of whom we KNOW post to this board. I doubt you will see any of them try to refute this as I can, and will, publish the thread of e-mails.

As far as scabs go - well there were NO scabs. NONE. PERIOD. So you shouldn't have a whole lot to talk about. This matter came pretty close to costing your council and ALPA more than a few million dollars and was only due to the goodwill of the Atlas pilots involved that it didn't. I hate to see this degenerate into another name calling exercise - but you and every other professional pilot deserve to know the truth.

joetommy

15th Mar 2007, 09:32

Had some Polar guys on the jumpseat. Everyone got along well. The talk turned to the Atlas contract. The F/O told of how Bobb undercut the Atlas MEC position, thus the current contract. The Polar guy countered with the argument that Polar went on strike with about 1/2 to 1/3 the crews and planes that Atlas had. And yet they made the strike happen. Why not Atlas with the much greater numbers. Polar could not possibly fly the Atlas trips even if they wanted to with their much smaller crew force.

Also, he wanted to know why the Atlas pilots tolerate the whole situation at STN. Polar pilots spend much of their time at ICN. But there is no crew base there. Let alone having to fly with people not on the Polar senority list.

Please tell me how to respond next time.

THANKS

DHC2 Driver

23rd Mar 2007, 00:46

Here comes plan "B"

Whale Rider

23rd Mar 2007, 06:31

So you keep saying........:}

Furloughed

23rd Mar 2007, 23:43

Plan B ?

What, has the Atlas VARS been updated ?

knehibiju

24th Mar 2007, 05:05

I don't know Skipper, what did he say?

I think if a company that controls two airlines actually has a plan B, or plan period, then both pilot groups need to find cover because it's going to start raining rocks.;)

Whale Rider

24th Mar 2007, 20:17

Plan B can only stand for one thing.....BS!:D

joetommy

25th Mar 2007, 12:08

I don't think I am going to get an answer What's wrong?
THANKS

ship's power

25th Mar 2007, 16:40

Perhaps an MEC "changing of the guard" will soon be in order. When the two pilot groups are combined into one (as in time, they most likely will), then the two old MEC's will have completed their tough stellar jobs.

In preparation for the beginning of the next era, a fresh MEC comprised of new candidates expertly prepared by today's leaderships should now be in early stages. Old antagonizing disputes will become history.
.

Everything has a plan "B". That's when all is thrown into the crapper!

DHC2 Driver

25th Mar 2007, 18:16

Had some Polar guys on the jumpseat. Everyone got along well. The talk turned to the Atlas contract. The F/O told of how Bobb undercut the Atlas MEC position, thus the current contract. Only partially correct. I am sure he meant Bob Fell the previous MEC chair not Bobb Henderson the current one. However, the current leadership is mostly driven by Robin Hair who seems to be a very angry man (as evidenced by his explosion just last week in front of a WHOLE bunch of folks) and who apparently hates the thought of being an Atlas pilot and an ACMI pilot. He is most likely the power behind the throne because it seems like he manages every decision. And he was on the leadership team when Atlas was in the final days of their contract negotiation. In fact Bobb, Bob, and Robin were in the same class or one class away during Polar initial. So it should not be surprising that they are all coaching from the same playbook.

The Polar guy countered with the argument that Polar went on strike with about 1/2 to 1/3 the crews and planes that Atlas had. And yet they made the strike happen. Why not Atlas with the much greater numbers.
That one is easy – there are two reasons and you answered one of them in your first paragraph. When Atlas was in the 11th hour of their strike prep, Bob Fell called Dave Bourne and told him that all bets were off and if we went on strike his crews would be flying six Atlas aircraft the next day (granted that this was not the only reason that the MEC recommended a TA, but it was a major factor). And Polar COULD have flown a great majority of the Atlas trips. Remember how Atlas ramped Polar up? Transferred some aircraft and hired a bunch of people for no reason? Sure, they developed some money losing routes to keep the pilots busy, but the main plan was to have a force other than AACS in place to take the Atlas planes and flying, had Atlas actually gone on strike. This is all old history and many on this board will not want to hear it again but it is only meant to keep the record straight not to start another war that none of us needs.

Second, the ONLY way Bobb Henderson made the Polar strike work was the secondary strike that he forced on the Atlas Pilot group. Duane Woerth gave a rousing speech at the ALPA national convention congratulating the Atlas pilots for the first-ever-in-history secondary strike in support of Polar. The Polar MEC even applauded. The fact that Atlas pilots were forced into it by Bobb’s tactics is immaterial. Polar would have been on the street if it were not for the Atlas pilots. That comment came DIRECTLY from a management official to my ears not one month after Polar was back flying.

Polar could not possibly fly the Atlas trips even if they wanted to with their much smaller crew force. This one is almost laughable and is answered partially above. But it bears discussion again, as it is yet another attempt to rewrite history. Just look at the Polar seniority list if you are interested and compare the dates of hire there, with the Atlas contract date.

Also, he wanted to know why the Atlas pilots tolerate the whole situation at STN. Once again answered in your paragraph above. If Atlas had been able to strike for a better contract perhaps the STN base would not be there.

Remember why exactly AACS was created – to give Atlas management options if Atlas pilots actually did go on strike. So in that respect is Polar all that different from AACS? They both were created or acquired to do what Polar pilots accuse Atlas pilots of doing…..

None of this is said with any animosity for both groups were played like a stradavarius. Rather it is my recollection of the facts mostly from what I have researched and some of what I heard from managment. So don't trust what I said (or Merc, should the mods on this board ever let him back on) - go find out for yourself. Read the dates, read the management announcements when Polar was purchased.

Get the "proof of purchase"

For Plan B part one click here (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/atlas032507.m3u)

Winning the battles while losing the war is never a good strategy. We HAVE to get together.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

layinlow

27th Mar 2007, 17:52

Nice recording. Where did you make it?
I guess Atlas, in order to eliminate Polar will give up all the China, Korea, and Japan rights. Sure they will! I think I will stick with Fed Ex, better management.

DHC2 Driver

27th Mar 2007, 20:34

Nice recording. Where did you make it? I didn't. You can call 1-800-253-5642 and hear it for yourself. The Atlas pilots (and management) listen to the Polar VARS all the time. Funny the Polar pilots have to hear this kind of thing from the Atlas VARS instead of their MEC chair, who got the letter the same time the Atlas MEC did.

I guess Atlas, in order to eliminate Polar will give up all the China, Korea, and Japan rights. Do you think Polar has some sort of monopoly on ALL the route authorities in the world? Not true. You can easily go to the DOT Document Management System, look under OST, and find all the route authorities and waivers that Atlas has, or has recently applied for.

Sure they will! I think I will stick with Fed Ex, better management. Good luck to you then. I doubt that it is better managment - most likely just different.

trashhauler

28th Mar 2007, 16:25

I can only assume you are alluding to some of the "informative" comments posted on this site. I am quite aware of the actual persons posted here and although I cannot quantify any of the atlas posts, I can assure you that only the Polar "worker bees" are posting anything related to this thread. However, there are some some, who I believe, deliberately salting the site with comments designed to elicit negative responses (Polar and Atlas). As a former Polaroid, I can see both sides working mighty hard to stir the pot. Sad.

DHC2 Driver

29th Mar 2007, 03:00

I am just gonna put this one out there without a comment.

Atlas 03-28-2007 VARS on Merger in streaming mp3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/atlas03282007.m3u)

layinlow

29th Mar 2007, 19:43

Very interesting. Now if you go to the Polar VARS and link to March 7th you will see that the Polar MEC is doing the same thing as the Atlas MEC, trying to preserve the integrety of the CBA and protection of the union members. Unless you are familiar with the Polar CBA you might not realize that the company wants to ignore the provisions of the scope clause. While I cannot speak for Bourne and their Atlas CBA, I can assure you that Henderson is going to work very hard to prevent that from happening at Polar. While I would like to see a merger, it must within the confines of the CBA. If it resulted in losses on the Polar side, then so be it, as long as it is in compliance with the CBA. Until then....nada

capnbob928s4

30th Mar 2007, 01:07

I've been watching from the sidelines but something that came out today is very interesting. Both Polar and Atlas negotiating committees have been hard at work working on a combined CBA. Most of the items concerning scope and successorship have been ironed out except for ONE. After the implementation of a combined CBA, the Polar people believe that for a specified period of time if Polar is sold then the original Polar crews should go with the sale and the same for Atlas should Atlas ever be sold. The Polar MEC wanted 5 years, gave in to 3 years then finally agreed to 21 months. The Atlas MEC stayed at 1 year and has not waivered. The interesting thing here is that the Atlas posters here constantly remind us how ACMI is the money maker and scheduled service is the anchor. Then why are the Atlas people so adamant about being able, after 1 year, to move with the Polar certificate should Polar be sold...afterall, many Atlas pilots will be high up on the combined seniority list and would therefore go with the Polar sale???????? Why not just stick with your ACMI gig? You've been posting here constantly about how great it is and how lousy the scheduled service is at Polar!!! Another confusing item is why is Atlas renaming many of their flights under their own scheduled service scheme?? Sounds like some of you want to hang onto the coattails of the Polar pilots!!! Why????????? They created it and should be allowed to continue with it if it is ever sold and vice versa.

DHC2 Driver

30th Mar 2007, 02:43

CB,
Not exactly true. The Polar guys have remained stuck on 40 months. The Atlas guys initially said none (because of the language from Arbitrator Harris) then they said 12 months but the POLAR guys have not budged from 40 months - even with intervention from ALPA president Prater. The follow the flying is important as scope especially since this company has a penchant for figuring out ways to play Atlas as well as Polar against other entities. it would not be unlike the managers at AAWWH to threaten to sell the Polar flying OR the Atlas flying if they thought it was in their best interests. So the follow the flying is important - but as you can see it is more important to Polar than to Atlas - at least it was until Polar negotiators became so recalcitrant.

Furloughed

30th Mar 2007, 04:19

There's a framework in place for a neutral third party to hear and rule on the merits of each side's wishes. We'll take it from there ...

DHC2 Driver

30th Mar 2007, 04:25

I am not sure that Prater was not supposed to fulfill that position.

knehibiju

30th Mar 2007, 05:40

So when both sides prattled into Prater’s office, what did you guys expect him to do? New guy on campus, still trying to find the executive was room, was suppose to referee differences between Atlas and Polar and maintain balance in the National realm I guess; so much for the honeymoon period.

I’m not really sure of the significance of demanding forty months, but it seems to be pretty darned important to the Polar side. So correct me if I’m wrong, I have not doubt someone will, but this whole merger thing for you folks is going to wind up in arbitration for a combined CBA right? So there’s finally an agreed upon follow the flying or work time limit set, and your company says in arbitration, well no, and the arbitrator says agreed, then what?

layinlow

30th Mar 2007, 13:14

There is an old adage in arbitration, "We're not happy until your not happy"and that is what will ultimately happen. Polar wants 40 months, Atlas wants 12, somewhere in the middle is where it will end up and no one will be happy. In the meantime, a lot of Polaroids are making a lot of money for sitting home. It can't last.

DHC2 Driver

30th Mar 2007, 15:16

There is an old adage in arbitration, "We're not happy until your not happy"and that is what will ultimately happen. Exactly what arbitrator Harris said at the beggining of the arb for the merged list. It is also kind of the title of this thread.

Polar wants 40 months, Atlas wants 12, actually after Polar refused to come off of the 40 months, Atlas changed their tune somewhat. Now they are not interested in a "Polar follow the flying" for even one month.

somewhere in the middle is where it will end up and no one will be happy. No one is happy now: does everyone have to get more unhappy? If Polar is so unhappy and Atlas is so unhappy then why is Polar trying to make everyone even more unhappy. The answer is below...

In the meantime, a lot of Polaroids are making a lot of money for sitting home. It can't last. ...and it won't. listen to the vars about six posts above.

See the problem is that Polar has changed their tune somewhat. Prior to the announcement of the mergerd list (which Polar thinks is just as bad for the Polar pilots as Atlas does for themselves) Polar was all for a merger. In fact in one of his VARS messages Bobb accused Atlas negotiators of dragging their feet, which is exactly what Polar is now doing. They are throwing roadblocks in front of the merger process - and the 40 months FTF is just the latest. They don't really care about follow the flying. The reason they will not negotiate it is because they want to delay the merger until they can find yet another grievance to file, or find a sympathetic judge or arbitrator who will agree with them on their scope language.

In my opinion Plan B has only begun. The rest of it will be worse than the already announced re-furloughs. This is brinksmanship at its worst. I just hope the Polar guys all have jobs when Bobb is done with his game.

Isn't it time to get on board, finish this thing and all work together?

trashhauler

30th Mar 2007, 22:31

Plan B just started? Does that mean I have to send back the money?

Mike15601

2nd Apr 2007, 23:01

A buddy of mine just received a call from Atlas asking if he was still interested in a job. He interviewed October 2005! How can Atlas do this when Polar guys are out of a job? I thought the Sen. list was integrated and Polar pilots would be offered a job first. "The more things change..the more they stay the same" Atlas Vs Polar Vs AABO Vs Cato.......:rolleyes:

DHC2 Driver

2nd Apr 2007, 23:59

They do this because Polar (Bobb, or more correctly Robin) has indicated by words as well as actions that he does not want to merge. While I would love to blame the company for this one, it is simply not true. If you are a Polar pilot and have a problem with this action then I suggest you call Bobb.

This is only the beggining of Plan B. Expect much more Atlas scheduled flying. Expect a grievance or lawsuit by the company against ALPOlar soon for non-compliance.

Winning the battles (ARbitration) while losing the war (integration) was NOT a good idea.

flite idol

3rd Apr 2007, 00:28

Mike your buddy had a narrow escape in 05......tell him to run, not walk away from that offer! This place is a total mess as you and the rest of the literate world can tell.

Tiger Guy

3rd Apr 2007, 03:15

free at last

3rd Apr 2007, 03:59

I bet all you have ever done is complain. The solution is to work at making it better or quit! Most airlines have peculiar problems as does Atlas Air/Polar Air. There are many jobs open world wide, you may qualify since you are such an expert!

DHC2 Driver

3rd Apr 2007, 04:53

Beaver Driver, just to clarify things 40 months was never in the mix. Polar was 5 years then down to 3 years finally agreed on Capt. Praters 21 months.

I understand the Atlas MEC is hung on the 12 months and wont move to the 21 which would get the merger under way.Simply not true TG. The following statement is directly from the table:

'' After several hours of discussions, it remained apparent that Polar decided that they could not move forward unless we agree to a “follow the work” provision that as previously stated was rejected by Arbitrator Harris. Even though we had previously offered a 12 month allowance (to follow the merger process) for the “follow the work” provision, in an attempt to keep the process moving forward, Polar demanded 40 months, and only after a great deal of mediation by ALPA and Captain Prater. We rejected these terms and adjourned but agreed to continue to work towards resolution.

Today, after seeking further counsel from our Merger attorney, we have finally determined that we cannot agree to any “follow the work” provision and have also withdrawn our original offer of 12 months. To that end, we believe that if we were to agree to such a “follow the work” provision we would be in direct conflict with the Harris Arbitration ruling and such an agreement would not be in the best interest of our Crew Member’s or ALPA."

As you can see, Atlas gave in to Polar's wishes for up to 12 months to cover the period of the merger. Once they realized that this was only a roadblock to the merger process. They withdrew even that offer.

Polar doesn't really care about the follow the work. These are all old time 121 guys and they know this drill well. What they are doing is to put roadblocks in the way of the merger in hopes that something will happen to prevent it. We call this throwing s___t against the wall in hopes that something will stick. http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

This might all be semantics - 40 months is a little over three years. So if you are hearing things in "Green-Turtle-Cay" language the three years makes sense.

But Prater never did get them to 21 months.

flite idol

3rd Apr 2007, 14:00

tvizekc

3rd Apr 2007, 14:13

WhaleDriver

3rd Apr 2007, 16:36

I think that's the point. One group of pilots is being lied to and this effects both MEC's, because there begins to be doubts on the minds of both groups. Is it my MEC thats the liar? This isn't the first time we've had dueling VARS, where one is 180 degrees out from the other. At some point, ALPA National has to step in and publicly censure the guilty party, just to clear the name of the other MEC.

If it's both MEC's stretching the truth in their direction and the result appears to be lies, then both MEC's need to cease and desist!

Cato and company are loving it..................

DHC2 Driver

3rd Apr 2007, 17:47

Let me guess, just because you heard it on an Atlas Vars then it makes it a fact? There will always be two sides (lies) to every story, so you might be so quick to accept only the side you want to here. :=Actually this is Bobb being disingenuous. The 21 months he is talking about would have come after the contract is signed. Atlas NEVER said this was a player and were only willing to give FTF for the 12 or 13 months it was going to take to finish the contract.

So Bobb's assertion on the Polar VARS about being 5 months apart (not sure how 12+5=21 must be that NEW math) is PURE BOVINE SCAT. There never was a 21 month deal from right now. There was a "possibility" of 12 months from a certain date and Polar was fighting for 40 months from that date. The 21 months suggested by other parties was after new CBA signing and integration.

So you figure it out. Would you rather be told the WHOLE truth or listen to Bobbs slanted approach to the truth?

Once again this is all BS and all a delaying tactic. Once the egg is scrambled there is no way to unscramble it. So why is this such a big deal Bobb?

Bobb isn't it time to get on board? Isn't it time to finish this merger so we can go forward together and make something out of this pigs ear? If you continue to shade the truth you will lose the war - if you haven't already. It is time to unite under one banner and go forward. You owe it to the pilots you have left to negotiate in good faith as you said you would. The clock is ticking on the one year timeline. Lets quit the childish games and settle down and negotiate like professionals.

cptvac

3rd Apr 2007, 21:12

Keep chummin the water beav, maybe you'll get a bite...

By the by, the last time I heard the phrase "...throw enought $hit against the wall and maybe some will stick..." Jim Cato said it in his office. Kinda odd...

(By the way, ALL of it stuck.)

YOU have a good day now, hear?

CPTvac

DHC2 Driver

3rd Apr 2007, 21:20

Thanks Mark You have a good day too!

Furloughed

3rd Apr 2007, 22:55

Hey D-2 can you get Merc back on here ? :yuk:

mercpc9

4th Apr 2007, 10:08

http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/gifs/vista9.gif

Po Boy

4th Apr 2007, 12:19

Ha Ha, Good One Merc:D

trashhauler

4th Apr 2007, 18:30

And I'm still getting a paycheck. Gotta love it!

DHC2 Driver

5th Apr 2007, 06:54

And I'm still getting a paycheck. Gotta love it!No one begrudges you your paycheck. In fact most Atlas pilots would say what I say - GOOD ON YA!

However, The Atlas pilots were screwed out of the ability to strike for a decent contract, at least in part, by the actions of the former Polar MEC. They were told by ALPA and others, "hey it is a first contract, the next one will be better."

Now they are more than a year into the amendable date of their "next" contract, waiting.

- Waiting for a new contract while flying 21-25 days a month for piss poor wages, due to a piss poor contract.

- Waiting while a VP of ops with ZERO operational experience and his predatory scheduling department, run by a European Chief Pilot who cares little for ALPA pilots, the FARs, or the current contract, screws them into the ground.

-Waiting for Bobb to quit posturing and screwing around so they can get to the "next" contract.

Most Atlas pilots see Polar as the root cause of all their recent pain and would just as soon Polar go away.

However, they also know that this merger is a reality. They know that it is a done deal. While some of them really HOPE that Bobb keeps messing around and Cato fires all the Polar pilots, MOST of them just want to get 'er done. Get the stoopid merger done so we can move on.

Get the merger done Bobb! You might as well go out with a decent legacy. If all of this posturing and rhetoric is because you think you have some chance to get yourself, or ANY Polar pilot, elected to represent the combined list, let me put your mind at ease - that will NEVER happen!!

So come on Bobb - the merger is a done deal. If you think that AAWWH is gonna put $5 Bil in jeopardy for 170 Polar pilots you are betting on the wrong horse. Get with the program. The merger is a reality. Lets get together and git 'er done.

Atlas pilots don't care if you like them or not - in fact most of them don't like you. But isn't it time to get professional and pull together to finish this thing?

Time to put all those years at Auburn to work for you - finish the protocols. Lets get to a contract!

Miami Freight

5th Apr 2007, 15:54

Why would the Polar pilots be worried about what happens before the CBA's are combined? Their current contract protects them in the mean time. Wouldn't the Atlas guys want to follow Atlas Air in the event it is spun off? After all ACMI is the best thing since sliced bread. Also just because something comes out of your MEC's mouth it is not guaranteed to be true. Polar agreed to Prater's compromise of 21 months. If the Atlas MEC did not have an ulterior motive why didn’t they just agree with it? Let ALPA National deal with the issue if it is against Arbitrator Harris’ ruling. I’d love to see Bourne’s phone records in the minutes prior to him backing out of the agreement. I’m guessing there was a call to area code 914.

PS. If I have to listen to you guys whine about how Polar caused you to have some a crummy contract one more time I will puke. You should have manned up and went on strike. We did. You brag about how Duane Woerthless touted your "contributions" to the Polar strike. Isn't this the same guy who stood by while the entire industry got bent over? Very credible.

Furloughed

5th Apr 2007, 17:13

D2 you'd better grow some backbone and quit making excuses.

With a proven track record of caving in what makes you think Mgmnt will meekly hand over a new contract any better than what you have now?

layinlow

5th Apr 2007, 17:50

It's all about the relationship with Cato. If Cato made a sudden turn with warning the Atlas MEC would break his nose.

whaledriver101

5th Apr 2007, 20:28

DHC2guy dont blame the Polar guys for your lousy contract. The Atlas pilts voted for the contract because 1) they thought it was the best contract they could get. or,, 2) they didnt have the "spine" to go on strike. The Polar pilots were on strike for a couple of weeks because they knew they deserved better. They had "spine".

You know that Polar agreed with a 21 month time table with the merged list and Atlas rejected it. Dont "play stupid"!!

As a polaroid I'd like to see Bob not budge one day off the 21 month deal that Prater suggested.

In fact,, If a vote comes my way for a 21 month time table agreement.

BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more.

DHC2 Driver

5th Apr 2007, 22:15

<sigh>

DHC2guy dont blame the Polar guys for your lousy contract. The Atlas pilts voted for the contract because 1) they thought it was the best contract they could get. or,, 2) they didnt have the "spine" to go on strike. Hard to go on strike when Bob F. said that if we did, Polar would be operating six Atlas airplanes the next day. He offerd you all up to do the same thing you accused Atlas pilots of doing during your strike. Who knows where it would have gone. The point is it made a difference in the thinking of whether or not to go on strike.

The Polar pilots were on strike for a couple of weeks because they knew they deserved better. They had "spine". And you would all be on the street still if Bobb had not focused on the Atlas pilots and forced them to support your strike.

You know that Polar agreed with a 21 month time table with the merged list and Atlas rejected it. Dont "play stupid"!! Bobb wants 21 months from the date of signing of the contract. The contract talks are expected to take 13 months with another 6 months to fully implement the contract, the training, and the combined list. 13+6+21= 40 months.

The Atlas MEC was not willing to do 40 months and at one point offered 12 months after the CBA. The two parties were NEVER "only 5 months apart" as Bobb said in his VARS. The Atlas MEC offered 12 months only until they talked to the merger attorneys and found out that ANY agreement such as this could abrogate the whole arbitration. In other words if Atlas agreed to the "follow the flying" which arbitrator Harris had specifically told Polar they were NOT to get, then it could make the whole arbitration void. In my opinion Bobb knew this - which is why (besides the roadblock theory) they tried this end-run around the merged list that everyone hates.

As a polaroid I'd like to see Bob not budge one day off the 21 month deal that Prater suggested. Well DUH! I don't doubt that.

In fact,, If a vote comes my way for a 21 month time table agreement.

BIG FAT "NO" here. I want more. How typical. Lets move backwards not forwards.

Miami Freight

6th Apr 2007, 13:23

I am soooo tired of you blaming Bob F. for everything but global warming. You should have tested the waters. I think you would have found that the Polar guys who had been on strike before would have stood fast. I think that you were afraid of your own lack of solidarity.
Where did Bobb say anything about 5 months apart? You insist on spouting your own view of the “facts”.
You are right about one thing. The MEC wants 21 months after the contact is signed. What happens before that will be covered under our own scope language that we went on strike to get.

flite idol

6th Apr 2007, 13:27

Does anyone take minutes at these meetings?

Furloughed

6th Apr 2007, 14:38

"Hard to go on strike when Bob F. said that if we did, Polar would be operating six Atlas airplanes the next day".

6 ? If this cowers you into submission what'll you do this time around with DHL/ABEX and ASTAR in the wings?

I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.

DHC2 Driver

6th Apr 2007, 14:41

Where did Bobb say anything about 5 months apart? You insist on spouting your own view of the “facts”. http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/merger/logs.pl

You were probably too busy flying your 172 to listen to his VARS.

DHC2 Driver

6th Apr 2007, 20:19

6 ? If this cowers you into submission what'll you do this time around with DHL/ABEX and ASTAR in the wings?

I'd bet on a concessionary contract at this rate.

Nope as I said before this was just ONE additional thing that caused things to happen the way they did. Atlas was counting on their Polar brothers and got that response at the 11:45 minute mark prior to their possible strike. Talk about playing in to Cato's hands, Bob F. did that admirably. Whose nose is (or was) where?

Between Bob F., ALPA and Dewayne Worth(less) what happened - happened. It was Atlas pilots first contact. Now they know better. They know not to trust ANYONE including their supposed ALPA bretheren; Bobb certainly has that down, and trust me Atlas pilots are learning well from him.

We could certainly rehash this all day long - but isn't it time to move forward. The merger is a done deal. Lets get the protocols done and get to that contract shall we?

The DHL deal is with an entity called Polar World Wide which is NOT Polar Air Cargo. Do you all think it is wise to hang your hats on a deal you might not have any part of?

What will happen will happen. Time to get professional and finish the contract. Bobb did everything he could to delay and depart, but it ain't workin. Atlas pilots are done trusting him.

whaledriver101

6th Apr 2007, 23:15

You are correct DHC2 driver. Whatever will happen will happen. But the Polar pilots are not going to just "jump" into this thing without protections. You talk about "moving forward" constantly. We would be glad to move forward if given the protections that we went on strike for(and would again). The pilots are tied to the certificate. Atlas pilots, AAWWH management, and DHL can forget about Polar Worldwide until the Polar pilots are in the ballgame as well.

Could all this mess affect the DHL deal???

Po Boy

6th Apr 2007, 23:29

The pilots are tied to the certificate

Where is that written, not looking to get into an arguement, just want to see this.

Could all this mess affect the DHL deal???

Um, Yeah.......................I'm sure that's why management wants to get this merged list and cba done as soon as possible

Po Boy

6th Apr 2007, 23:32

See you in VHHH!

First beer on me!

DHC2 Driver

7th Apr 2007, 01:13

767I why don't you come right out and say what you mean.

This merger has been a WHOLE lot like when United (Stephan Wolfe) bought Air Wisconsin...and the pilots are just as acrimonious. Or perhaps you don't remember that?

I am just assuming here, that because of your 767I name, and the fact that all of your posts originate from the Bay Area, that you are a UAL pilot - so why are you involving yourself in something you obviously know nothing about - save for the one side you are hearing about in the noodle shop in Narita.

An objective person would get two sides to the story. While management created this mess, it is a dispute between two ALPA carriers. Not management and labor. So why the comment about a management stoolie?

Who is right in this dispute? Probably neither party - or both. It depends on your outlook. The facts and the history, however, are indisputable although the Polaroids would like to change them -rewrite history so to speak.

trashhauler

7th Apr 2007, 04:45

DH2:confused: you are some piece of work.

DHC2 Driver

7th Apr 2007, 05:14

DH2:confused: you are some piece of work.Thanks - Now THAT is helpful! Comments like that from someone who does not work for Polar move us forward immeasurably.

Why is it that the truth is only the real truth when it comes out of a Polar pilots mouth?

How are things in Memphis? I will be there next week. Care to get together for a beer? I'll even buy.

Tiger Guy

7th Apr 2007, 18:27

Po Boy. It is written in the PAC CBA Sect. 1 Scope clause Sect. C Successorship.
Beaver, I don't want to get into this inane thread again but as I was working for Polar back in the B.F days. I can't comment on any conversations that he may have had with Bourne.The only people that can are those two. BUT I do know that Polar didn't have enough crews to operate their own flights let alone 6 airplanes from Atlas. So that is nonsense. Cato and Shuyler had put a freeze on hiring.
When I saw that Cato and Shuyler were at Atlas. Two Lorenzo clones, I was gone. They are living proof that the Satan mated with Baboons.

WhaleDriver

7th Apr 2007, 18:47

You have to remember that the planes we're talking about were doing China Air, very regular schedule and repetitive. We figured that if Fell said do it to the Polaroids, they would and could do it with an average of four extra days a month. GOOD money on the Polar contract.

No one knows if they would have, but with 15 minutes before going on strike in the post 9/11 environment, it was a bombshell!

The grounds for the hard feelings is that this decision by Fell was make well in advance, yet he didn't get around to telling anyone until tracked down at a BBQ in Anc with 15 minutes to go.

BTW, there were more that just Bourne/Fell on the phone on the Atlas end.
So more than two know what happened and was said.

This is not to argue over who is at blame for a contract, just to clarify some info out there.