Cb avoidance

[RMC]

Recently had a situation coming out of Milan with Cbs as far as the eye could see (horizontally and vertically). The Italians have an unfortunate tendancy to use several sentances where one would do which led to constant chatter and I was not able to get a word in with an avoid request for at least three minutes.
As my heading was taking me into a cell (that looked even less inviting than my mother in law) I turned to go upwind and transmitted my change at a point where it was most likely to be heard. No response just more high pitched chatter.
Took another three minutes to eventually get it confirmed that my call had been heard (some serious VHF breakthrough from the lightning was not helping).
Maintaining heading into this aircraft breaker was not an option. Having spoken with several colleagues I have no pilot concencus about the best way to deal with this situation.
Common suggestions were declaring a PAN or squawking 7700 then changing heading (to give ATC 500' separation)??
Interested in your views as to how this kind of situation should be dealt with.:confused:

[SM4 Pirate]

Very interesting; but suggest 7600 first; they will call you...

If all else fails; squawk 7700 and broadcast on the frequency what you are doing; the ATC might not hear, but other pilots might; also braodcast on 121.5 with your current position, intended tracking and level intentions. Give other crew some chance of catching your operataional decision for their SA etc.

Assess the best option around wx, the have a quick glance at the chart and see if that is towards major airways or active restricted areas, particularly if making the decision blind of ATC help; because the other way around the wx may be further miles but a safer option.

I find as an ATC that a 7600 squawk gets my attention pretty damn quick; I'll call you immediately and try a squawk ident routine at least; then as I call return your squawk code to previous; remember the 0607 issue; changing squawk on the run.

[Lon More]

If you can't get a word in and you feel you are being endangered, A7700 is the best option, but you'd better be prepared to defend your actions as to get you out of difficulty it's probable that someone else is placed in jeapordy.
I wouldn't advise going to 121.5, s you are just adding another complication to the equation.(About 10 controllers will answer your call, probably none of them at the unit you were originally working, also several pilots will chip in to advise you that you are on guard).
BTW been discussed before. look at some of the similar threads

[RMC]

SM 4 Pirate - Thanks for that.
"...remember the 0607 issue changing squawk on the run"
Is this relating to selecting stby before changing txpdr code or have is this yet another gap in that which I am supposed to know.

Any other thoughts as I have not found the other threads mentioned.

[Lon More]

Dunno if it's the way this PC is set up, but scrolling down below the last mwssge reveals other threads.
In this case:
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[RMC]

Thanks LM some good stuff in there.

One of the main points is that life would be much better if ATC had wx radar. Possibly...the problem is that most ATC wx radar is L band which is the worst type for spotting real weather. Modern aircraft use X band (which is not as reliable as the older, larger more expensive C band). X band exaggerates wx severity as you get close to it (Sensitvity Timing Control modified under instruction of US liability lawyers).

This partly explains why sometimes you will get late calls to avoid and some aircraft will fly through wx which others won't. Another key factor is accurate wx radar management is not well understood by many pilots. Some will sit fat, dumb and happy with their X band super narrow beam scaning a clear bit of sky others will be using tilt management techniques to assess radar storm tops etc.

If ATC do get wx radar S band is the one met men use and they have a much better picture than any of us.

Can I repeat my question on the 0607 issue

[Lon More]

One of the main points is that life would be much better if ATC had wx radar
Unfortunately most ATC systems go to considerable lengths to remove WX from the display.
Most systems have the possibility to show at least somethng. Unfortunately what, to an ATC radar many miles away, looks like a good way through, looks impassable to the pilot actually there.
I never, in more than 35 years, was able to successfully suggest a safe route through WX.

[SM4 Pirate]

If ATC do get wx radar S band is the one met men use and they have a much better picture than any of us.
Can I repeat my question on the 0607 issueHere is a good link on the 0607 issue: http://www.eurocontrol.int:80/safety/gallery/content/public/library/SWM%20%2021%20June%202006.pdf

In Oz we get a met radar feed on different screen and scale to the traffic display; we can't 'even guess' where the WX is real time, as it's one snapshot every ten minutes; the map and range rings hide under the WX when it paints; so not terribly useful. We often have diversion when our metrad says nothing there, and reverse of that too, straight through what we think needs to be avoided.

Our displays are more a guide that WX is building or dissipating; nothing more.

[anotherthing]

RMC

you should, as you know put ssr to standby when changing the code if using the old system (the rotary dials, and only one ssr box.

Newer systems (going back a few years now) are push button selection with (in the ones I have used) a toggle switch to choose either the left hand or right hande code. This allows you to change the ssr code by still retaining the old code, punching the new code into the left or right (whichever is inactive) then toggling the switch.

The 0607 problem is a known problem with one manufacturers piece of kit. It is being addressed and certainly in TC where it used to be a common problem, it is getting a lot better, very quickly.