LL controllers in SUN EFPS shocker

[Widger]

Nearly spat out my cornflakes this morning, reading a discraceful piece of journalism in The Sun about EFPS. Every word like CRASH or DISAPPEAR was in bold.

EFPS has been in use at Swanwick for many years now, is there really a problem at LL or is it just the Union trying to justify more pay?

[anotherthing]

Widger - read the story properly - its complete sun tosh. Controllers on over £100k?? A tower controller crashing A/C over the channel in training?? Christ TC area controllers rarely venture 'feet wet', never mind heathrow tower.

[London Mil]

Another quality article that the great unwashed will beleive in it's entirety.
PS. when will Heathrow ever stop being the "World's Busiest Airport"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_airports_by_traffic_movements (wilkpedia) has Heathrow at a lowly 15th.

[cleartouchandgo]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "busiest".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_busiest_airports_by_international_passenger_traffi c


CTG.

[floydie]

Does this mean that you think that there are no concerns at Heathrow regarding the 13th of January? I mean, a new tower, on a new location, a new computer system and EFPS all on the same day? Never mind the quality of the newspaper, it is quite a lot isn't it?

[DTY/LKS]

Widger

Last time i looked at my paper flight strip board at Swanwick, EFPS wasn`t in

[London Mil]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "busiest".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_busiest_airports_by_international_passenger_traffi c
CTG.


Well I think in this conext we're talking about the opportunities for controllers to create the inevitable, tragic carnage in the sky. ;)

Good luck. :eek:

[Widger]

Another thing,

I know it's complete Sun tosh....read my post carefully! The point is, no smoke without fire. Is this a case of not wishing to move with technology?

[anotherthing]

Floydie...

thats why there will be flow restrictions. The guys at heathrow are receiving training for all you mention. A new tower - so what. New location - so what. A new computer - the engineers should have tested that to the nth degree. EFPS - perhaps the biggest issue, but should still be OK once the guys and gals get used to it, even though it is a big change.

There will always be misgivings about change, but not to the scaremongering that piece of toilet paper dramatically reports.

[anotherthing]

Widger -

get some work done - we must be crossing posts!!

I don't think its a case of not wanting to embrace new technology... I thinlg its a case of the Current Bun not wanting to embrace true news.

[Stupendous Man]

From the sunonline
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006540489,00.html

Our whistleblower said: “Senior controllers aren’t just warning that there might be a mistake — they are insisting there WILL be a crash if this changeover goes ahead. These people are not militant union types who can’t handle change, they are the creme de la creme of air traffic control.
Its nice to see that they don't have any issues with their egos as well as their strips......:rolleyes:

[chevvron]

creme de la creme? Must be true if it's in the Sun.

[London Mil]

they are the creme de la creme of air traffic control

What, the sour stuff that always floats to the top?

[floydie]

Floydie...

thats why there will be flow restrictions. The guys at heathrow are receiving training for all you mention. A new tower - so what. New location - so what. A new computer - the engineers should have tested that to the nth degree. EFPS - perhaps the biggest issue, but should still be OK once the guys and gals get used to it, even though it is a big change.

There will always be misgivings about change, but not to the scaremongering that piece of toilet paper dramatically reports.
So nothing to worry about eh? Everything is taken care of to everybody's satisfaction? Just another busy day at the office.

[anotherthing]

So nothing to worry about eh? Everything is taken care of to everybody's satisfaction? Just another busy day at the office.


Bloody hell... some people want us taken back into the dark ages. It's not witchcraft you know!!:}

[floydie]

Bloody hell... some people want us taken back into the dark ages. It's not witchcraft you know!!:}

I know 'cause you're not witches are you? Cannot work magic though.

[Dunebug]

While we're on the subject of news, does anyone here have any idea why there appears to be a news blackout regarding the successful introduction of SAATS at Prestwick. No staff notices, no warm congratulations from the GM, no headlines on NATSnet - what's going on????? For heavens sake Paul Barron letting off a silent one in his office usually makes it on to NATSnews!!!!

[sleeplessnights]

I've worked in ATC for over 25 years, and we've just had EFPS installed here at EGGW. I know we don't have the amount of traffic as EGLL, but then again we don't have the amount of staff or working positions either.
Yes I was sceptical and concerned about the change too, but I have to admit that the system does actually work. It does make life easier and quicker.
EGLL controllers are right to be worried about the change, but they will be surprised about how easy the system is to operate in the real world.
As for the assistants, they have nothing to do now. They are the ones who should be worried about its introduction.

[London Mil]

Whats wrong with a chinagraph and pinboard?:ouch:

[Stupendous Man]

While we're on the subject of news, does anyone here have any idea why there appears to be a news blackout regarding the successful introduction of SAATS at Prestwick. No staff notices, no warm congratulations from the GM, no headlines on NATSnet - what's going on?????

Just because NATS has units north of the M25 doesn't mean they deem them important or newsworthy. If you ain't one of the flagships then forget it.

[Married a Canadian]

100 movements an hour????

Ermm they must mean arrivals and departures.

How many DEPARTURES an hour is the point as I would have thought that is where the EFPS is used...(out of interest how many at peak rate LL guys?)

They use EFPS in YYZ tower aswell and as far as I am aware there are no problems whatsover (and at peak rate they sure chuck em out).

For once NATS is actually changing something that will make its operation more effective.

[Gonzo]

For once NATS is actually changing something that will make its operation more effective.

That very much remains to be seen. We'll revisit this topic in one year! :E

[viaEGLL]

Perhaps if you just embraced it rather than fighting it !!!
Maybe its just a capacity thing???

[Minesapint]

SAATS is a major achievement and the staff responsible need to be congratulated. In the same way that a NERC build makes the intranet!!

EFPS seems to work very well at the airports that have it, and are used to it. Ask the Gatwick controllers if they want their old paper strips back!

What is the "new computer system" at Heathrow? Do y'all mean A-SMGCS?

[viaEGLL]

Sorry!! Meant to give an example of positive EGLL attitude;
"That very much remains to be seen. We'll revisit this topic in one year"
I know the problem can EFPS not cope with the old check at the Delta's:confused: :confused:

[Gonzo]

viaEGLL, please come over and tell us how to do it.

Maybe its just a capacity thing???

That is exactly what it is. There are some safety issues, and lots of capacity issues.

[viaEGLL]

Are you talking about the controllers or EFPS???

[Gonzo]

How can you separate ATCOs and the flight data display system in terms of capacity? EFPS means I have to use more of my capacity to keep track of the picture and what's going on. Is it me? Or is it EFPS?

[viaEGLL]

if you simplify EFPS then there is less of a capacity issue as EFPS cannot replicate all actions therefore you may have to change how you operate slightly. Other units have adapted somewhat, why can't yours?;)

[Minesapint]

I have been told that EFPS considerably improves situational awareness, is that not the case? I also understand that there are a few problems that are not really an EFPS problem, more the other system it communicates with. That will be fixed really soon.

[Gonzo]

We are adapting, that's the problem. Capacity is decreasing because of it. In an effort to minimise that ATCO capacity decrease, we are losing our flexibility, especially on GMC, which means more delays for a/c.

[viaEGLL]

In what way does EFPS lessen ATCO capacity in GMC? A strip is a strip, regardless. Is is not an ATCO coordination problem rather than EFPS itself?

[Gonzo]

I'm sorry guys, I was in a good mood an hour ago. I'm depressed now just thinking about it. That's it for today. Maybe tomorrow. :ugh:

[viaEGLL]

AHHH !!

I will be thinking about all the hard work you do when i'm on FIN this weekend:ok: :ok: :ok:

[anotherthing]

Surely though Gonzo there will always be a degradation in delivery whilst a new system is being introduced. It's only natural. When you have had a chance to use it and get used to it and adapt your methods (unfortunately you will have to adapt your methods), you may well find it enhances your operation.

Doing things the old way - especially with tactile strips - is very comforting. Sometimes we as human beings need to be taken out of the comfort zone to develop.

I truly hope it works for you guys as it has done for other units. There are trying times ahead for all of us as capacity continues to increase with little or no new resources (i.e. plain old concrete on which to stick an A/C)

[TCAS FAN]

Leaking a story to the Sun, what is the world coming to? When I was a lad only the Times or Telegraph would have been the way to go!

What next the LHR GM on page 3?

Maybe this an indication of the way things are going, leaking appears to be rife (often from management onto staff?) in NATS, latest heard is that at least some LHR controllers are apparently hinting that for a £10K payment the problem could go away?

If thats the case, glad I only operate out of LGW.

[nodelay]

"Maybe this an indication of the way things are going, leaking appears to be rife (often from management onto staff?) in NATS, latest heard is that at least some LHR controllers are apparently hinting that for a £10K payment the problem could go away?"

Hey, if you don't ask you don't get! The 10k should cover nicely the extra 15-20 mins a day it takes to get into the new tower. It's part of the working day, shouldn't they be recompensed for it?

[G-CPTN]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13553488,00.html

[Jerricho]

Words cannot express how much reading this absolute trash is boiling my piss.

See the next time I get accused of being unfair when attacking journalists, I'm going to link this thread.

Sky and The Sun, hang your damn heads in shame.

[2miles600feet]

When the Gatwick SMVCR was built airside in the 1980s, staff were inconvenienced - their travel time to work increased. Did they bleat on about it ad nauseum? No. Did they expect remuneration for it? No. Did they accept that this was inevitable change, face the front and just get on with it? Yes.
When the Gatwick SMVCR was surrounded by concrete in the 1990s, staff were further inconvenienced - their travel time to work increased again. Did they bleat on about it ad nauseum? No. Did they expect remuneration for it? No. Did they accept that this was inevitable change, face the front and just get on with it? Yes.
Ignoring for a moment the argy-bargy surrounding EFPS (separate issue), I'd be grateful to know why Heathrow staff faced with a move to the NVCR feel that they should expect special treatment when their colleagues at Gatwick faced with similar circumstances got cock-all - twice.

[GT3]

Did they expect remuneration for it? No. Did they accept that this was inevitable change, face the front and just get on with it? Yes.

So on that basis should those who wish to complain about CSD just "put up with it"? Should anyone with a grievance which they believe is justified just accept it?

Just because something happens somewhere does not mean that everyone else has to follow.

[2miles600feet]

So on that basis should those who wish to complain about CSD just "put up with it"? Should anyone with a grievance which they believe is justified just accept it?
Just because something happens somewhere does not mean that everyone else has to follow.

...and the relevance of this quote to this argument is?...

...you are a mobile grade. This is what you signed up to. You are being relocated quarter of a mile. Get over it.

[GT3]

The relevnace being that LHR controllers feel uneasy about a number of things concerned with the relocation of our workplace. Saying we should just shut up and get on with it is in our opinion not something we want to do.

If you guys did that then fine, that was your choice at the time.

[2miles600feet]

The relevnace being that LHR controllers feel uneasy about a number of things concerned with the relocation of our workplace. Saying we should just shut up and get on with it is in our opinion not something we want to do.
If you guys did that then fine, that was your choice at the time.

Read my post 40 above. You should see I have no argument with anybody publicly voicing concerns over EFPS or new working practices. I do not profess to know enough about it to offer opinions. What irks me (and I suspect a number of others on this forum) is reading complaints from LHR staff about the inconvenience of the move.

The risk of being inconvenienced by your employer was something you signed up for when you joined.

[viaEGLL]

Just a quick question while we are on this subject .
Any views on the unknown controller sending his views direct to Mr Walsh !!
Should he/she have done this ???

[Minesapint]

I wonder then if all TC and Manchester staff should get a bung for moving south/north? I moved from LTCC to LACC and that is a lot further than old tower to new tower. How do you spell premadonnas again.

In Italy some of the mil controllers wear shades and flying suits, maybe that would be a good insentive? We could give them all captains uniforms - 5 stripes of course :cool: :cool: :cool:

[GT3]

We could give them all captains uniforms - 5 stripes of course :cool: :cool: :cool:

We already have them thanks

[25check]

I wonder then if all TC and Manchester staff should get a bung for moving south/north? I moved from LTCC to LACC and that is a lot further than old tower to new tower. How do you spell premadonnas again.


To answer your question, you spell it 'Prima donnas'. You also spell incentive with a 'c'. We know that stuff at Heathrow:cool:

[Point Seven]

Folks

A few minor points.

1/. The LHR controllers have NOT asked for a bung for going to the NVCR. They have asked to be re-compensed either in time or an appropriate alternative, for the increase in their travelling time to get to their place of work. I see nothing wrong with this and if KK did not ask then that is their affair, not LHRs.

2/. The risk of being inconvenienced by your employer was something you signed up for when you joined.

Correct, but if you get moved to another unit, or if you are clever enough not to validate somewhere, NATS wade in with an assisted move and pay for a whole lot of your costs. And the MACC/LACC/LTCC controllers will/have this made avalaible to them as I recall. The workplace of the LHR controller may be only a "quarter of a mile away" (slightly further than that mate but I'm happy to go with it) but there is an associated time penalty. Having to go through the security checks, especially with the new BAA checking policy, and then through the whole terminal WILL mean an increase in the time it takes to get to the NVCR (something the KK controllers know all about I am sure) and this is a change in the working conditions that are afforded to the LHR controllers so I think that they are quite justified in asking for something for this.

3/. The union, of which most of the NATS ATCOs are members, support the requests of the LHR ATCOs so the amount of personal sniping about Prima Donnas or Captains stripes shows not that the LHR controllers have no case, but only that there still exists a seam of controllers who feel the need to be generally unpleasant to a group of controllers who undertake the same task as every other tower controller around the country, the only difference is that they do it near Hounslow. It is quite sickening to see this happen whenever an LHR tower controller dares to voice an opinion about being hard done to.

I do not profess to know enough about it to offer opinions. What irks me (and I suspect a number of others on this forum) is reading complaints from LHR staff about the inconvenience of the move.

You are right old buddy - it irks me too that complaints are made about inconvenience. It is inconvenient that we have to move all these bloody planes. It is inconvenient that we have to go to work in the first place. But notwithstanding these rather lame arguments, thr LHR controllers still have valid opinions about the new equipment (that I subscribe to only in part - given time familiarity will come ergo being adept with it will also) and the move to the NVCR is worrying some of the controllers.

For as much as some of their colleagues on here berate them, the LHR controllers do an OK job of shifting the jets on the airport and take a great deal of pride in doing so. To then move to a situation of not feeing comfortable doing it, and facing a (short term) reduction in the traffic being moved, are matters of personal and professional pride for them. And for this we should respect them, not throw tired, moribund accusations of being "Special Ones" at them.

The wider ATCO community is soon to face a greater assualt on its stability and if we cannot stand united, or behind our colleagues who are trying to get a better deal for themselves, then the task of the opposing view that we face will be made much simpler.

P7

[Jerricho]

But Mr R, you are special ;)

[viaEGLL]

Wonderful speech P7:D :D :D

[2miles600feet]

P7, your Churchillian call for ATCO solidarity was truly inspirational, although slightly at odds with:

if KK did not ask then that is their affair, not LHRs.
:)

[GT3]

P7, your Churchillian call for ATCO solidarity was truly inspirational, although slightly at odds with:
:)

But how is it at odds? Should LL ATCOs have told the KK ones to ask for more? Not a snipe but a genuine question as that has confused me.

[spekesoftly]

When the Gatwick SMVCR was built airside in the 1980s, staff were inconvenienced - their travel time to work increased. Did they bleat on about it ad nauseum? No. Did they expect remuneration for it? No.

Just for the record, when the new KK VCR first opened, the journey time, compared to the old VCR, was marginally reduced, and the new ATC staff car park could not have been more convenient! (and much easier than using car park 'H', for GMC in the terminal!)

I appreciate that many years later, access changed considerably, but the opening paragraph is not correct.

[A I]

Just for complete accuracy, the original Gatwick VCR was airside as well. The bit that wasn't was GMC which was on the sixth? floor of the terminal. The walk from the staff carpark to GMC was considerable and we didn't get breaks because there were no limitations to hours in those days.

A I :{

[Lon More]

The walk from the staff carpark to GMC was considerable
And IIRC, it was even further to NMU.
Also think it was about half a mile round the perimeter road to the staff restaurant.

And I thought I used to work with a bunch of Luddites. EFPS has been around for more than 20 years and has not yet caused any disasters

[hangten]

issues aside, i'm confused about how on earth the article made it to the sun? did the 'whistleblower' carbon copy them when they sent it to walsh? could it in any way be in walsh's interests to forward it to them? or did somebody else along the line leak it (other ba or nats staff for example)?

i dont seriously expect anybody to know the answer for sure (or if they did that they would let us all know on here! :} ) but anybody got any better theories than me?

[vespasia]

P7

1/. The LHR controllers have NOT asked for a bung for going to the NVCR. They have asked to be re-compensed either in time or an appropriate alternative, for the increase in their travelling time to get to their place of work. I see nothing wrong with this and if KK did not ask then that is their affair, not LHRs.

So if I move further away from work can I be compensated for my increased travelling time to get to my place of work? And before anyone says so, I know that's a matter of choice but the point still applies. I propose that anyone living less than 20 minutes from LHR should indeed be compensated for their extra travelling time. The rest will just have to tough it out like the rest of us.:ugh:

[2miles600feet]

To all Gatwick historians, I apologise. Clearly got wires crossed re. status of old VCR and managed to make 2+2=5. However, I do believe the second part of my original post on this thead to be true; i.e. that when the SMVCR became surrounded by concrete, Gatwick staff working arrangements were seriously affected, and they got nothing for it. I am happy to be corrected if this is also wrong.

But how is it at odds? Should LL ATCOs have told the KK ones to ask for more? Not a snipe but a genuine question as that has confused me.

GT3: Not taken as a snipe - perfectly good question. I may have misinterpreted the intent of P7's post, but to me there appears to be an inconsistency: the fact that Gatwick staff have never been compensated for their increased journey times to/from work is their problem - yet it appears Heathrow staff consider they should be entitled to some form of compensation, and that the ATCO community should support it. Does this make any sense?

I do agree with the majority of P7's post, and certainly empathise regarding your obvious concerns regarding changes to operational working practices.

[GT3]

2m600f, thanks for the response. When the NVCR was first talked about by current management/union members the likelyhood was a 30 minute walk at the start and the end of each working day. LL staff in their opinion felt this was excessive and put in a claim to local management for recompense for this additional duty time.

Things have moved on since that time and the journey is now approx 10 mintues each way if the minibus system, provided by NATS, is to be used. Even with this 10 minutes at the start and end of each shift this equates to 6 days per year. Now to some it may seem like a case of LL think they are better than the rest and should get this, or to others who might take a pragmatic view may see it as if they have managed to get something we might be able to in the future.

Oh and the recompense for this travel time that Prospect asked for was in time, not cash. The cash payment was an idea from mgt ilo time compensation.

[London Mil]

I just worry that we live and work in a society where we negotiate a change to employment terms because the office has moved by 10 minutes.:ugh:

[shack]

Oh! Happy days when we used to park in front of the tower, before there was a bus/underground station there-----and we were happy and not sniping at one another!!

[Nimmer]

Think this whole topic about compensation for having to travel an extra 10 minutes to work is pathetic. Come on EGLL tower ATCO's join the real world, get off your ivory coated tower and into a brand new one!!!!

It wasn't too long ago half or more of the staff had to park in the north car park and travel by bus, that took about 40 minutes. You only got a spot at the base of the tower after x number of years and if you were deemed worthy!!!

Introducing EFPS and a new tower does appear a lot to take in, we all thrive on familiarity. But again you" creme de creme" contollers, use your expertise and flow the traffic to a level you are comfortable with until you feel happy.

Finally if you are still not happy apply for a transfer, EGLL radar are desperate for staff!!!!

From the comments on the thread, there doesn't appear to be a lot of sympathy coming EGLL towers way.

[Gonzo]

Nimmer, some still do park northside, 40 minutes as you say, plus another 20 now to get to the NVCR, if it's quiet. My watch went on a 'liaison trip' to the new tower the other day, and from the 1A car park to the base of the new tower took just under 30 minutes...again, it was quiet. Ten minutes to get through security, five waiting for the minibus, and fifteen driving through the airside roads. And then of course that means maybe ten ATCOs and five ATSAs turning up at once all wanting to brief themselves before they go on shift.......but hang on, only four computers to use EBS! D'oh! :ugh:

To ensure you are ready to work for 0700, you'll have to get to 1A car park at 0620 at the latest, if not earlier.

[TCAS FAN]

Talking to a NATS controller mate of mine, he (and his colleagues) think that this whole issue is laughable. As somebody previously mentioned, NATS controllers are on mobile contracts, the inconvenience of moving to the other side of LHR escapes me. If I was inconvenienced in a similar manner and it took me 10 - 15 minutes longer to report for duty, so be it, my company pays
me to work, not travel to work.

Lets not talk about a "bung", how about calling it "Home to duty allowance"?

[vespasia]

Can you imagine the howls of derision if, when staff got a parking spot at the base of the LHR tower instead of Northside ( i.e. 2 minutes away not 40 ) NATS management tried to make them work the extra time that suddenly became theirs? := Try living in the real world guys. And what's worse, the travel issue is losing you sympathy over the real issues of the move and EFPS introduction in one go.:ouch:

[GT3]

Can you imagine the howls of derision if, when staff got a parking spot at the base of the LHR tower instead of Northside ( i.e. 2 minutes away not 40 ) NATS management tried to make them work the extra time that suddenly became theirs? :=

If that were to happen then any time compensation would be reduced/removed as appropriate.

[anotherthing]

What about the 30 - 45 minutes it takes to get on to the main roads out of LACC if you finish a nightshift at 0700??

Or the time it will take TC controllers to find a parking space (cos there aint enough) when starting shift at 1400, then walk to the far end of the building (probably about 15-20 mins)??!!!

[2miles600feet]

Things have moved on since that time and the journey is now approx 10 mintues each way if the minibus system, provided by NATS, is to be used. Even with this 10 minutes at the start and end of each shift this equates to 6 days per year.

OK. This system appears to be virtually identical to that which I understand is in use at Gatwick. If it is deemed appropriate that Heathrow staff should be compensated for this time, why is it not appropriate for such compensation to be paid to Gatwick staff?

My personal view is that compensation ought not to be paid in either case, but I would like somebody to please justify how such an unequitable situation could be allowed to take place.

[nodelay]

I do agree and sympathise with you LL guys 'n' gals over EFPS and NVCR, both at the same time is far from satisfactory. And unlike Nimmer I think it will be a lot to take in.

However, if you keep pushing the time time/travel issue you will alienate the rest of your NSL colleagues. I have heard the union is backing your claim on the basis that it might allow other units to pursue similar claims in the future which we all know is complete b**whoops!**cks. Far from the union being strong and supportive, they are being weak and most definately sending out the WRONG message to the rest of its MEMBERS. Unless the union can guarentee that other units will benefit from this (and of course it can not and will not) then it should make it clear, in no uncertain terms to the LL workers that they simply do not have a case.
Imagine if you will, driving to work one morning and discovering that somebody has suddenly placed an extra couple sets of traffic lights, a mini roundabout and, oh dear, a long term diversion due roadworks. What are you going to do about it? Who will you run to then?? Most people would set off 10 mins early. You are fast becoming the ATC equivalent to the ever increasing litigious society. Where will it stop? I don't really suppose you can answer that.

No. The union should be saying no. No support from us on this issue. Concentrate on the job in hand; continue to provide the excellent service you give to your customers, tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR. People will listen and support. But please, put your teddies back in your cots, give yourselves a bloody great big pinch and join the rest of the real world. It's quite a nice place really.:D

[GT3]

Concentrate on the job in hand; continue to provide the excellent service you give to your customers, tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR. People will listen and support.

Thanks for your support on that front but as we have seen in this and other threads we are wrong about that according to some on here.

[Gonzo]

nodelay,

tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR.

Please, I would be very interested to know just what it is I've been doing for the past 18 months, if not the above.

Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead? Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances? Are some people so short sighted and obstinate that 'If I don't get it, you don't get it' rules. :(

[Chip Dyson]

I have worked at Heathrow and Stansted. I have also recently visited the new tower and, therefore, feel in a position to add to this debate.

Firstly, I have great sympathy with my Heathrow colleagues who are having to deal with the move and the newVCR at the same time. Change is never easy and doing it this way surely adds to your frustrations.

Secondly, Stansted was at the forefront of developing EFPS and I can assure every one that it was tough. Many of us had our doubts with the system both before and after it was installed. We made mistakes with it and had our frustrations and worries. But, it has developed into a very user-friendly system that assists the way I do my job at a very busy single runway operation. From my visit to Heathrow it appears that the controllers are going through the same apprehension that we did. This seems to be mainly from the fact that you don't fully understand the system and how it will work in the real world. What is plain to see, is that you need some help from people who use the system daily so that we can help you develop it so that your training and operation becomes a little less frustrating. I'm sure that anyone (with this experience) on this forum would offer their help and I am certainly one of those (please PM).

As for making mistakes in the Simulator, that is why you are doing the Sim runs to make your transition easier. I'm sure that all the Stansted, Gatwick and now Luton controllers would admit to making mistakes when we were training and this increases the worry. I will admit that you have it harder because you are using a very realistic sim (we still have Simtac) in a very busy traffic environment, but this is why you carry out the exercises.

Having visited your new tower, I think that your worries over transfer times are well founded. What you should be asking for is that every controller parks as close to the tower as possible and that a better long term solution should be provided. On saying that what a really tremendous place to work. I thought that Stansted's tower was modern and futuristic but the new tower really shoves it into last century!! I'm sure that you will have some difficulty adapting to the new layout but do you really want to be working in the current tower when T5 opens. As the Sun article states you are high up the order in terms of controller ability and surely this means that you should have the most modern working environment and not one from the middle ages!!

A rather long post, I know, but hopefully I have provide a reasoned argument from experience. Help is out there for our colleagues at Heathrow and please ask before it's too late. I can absolutely assure you that EFPS and the new tower will he assist you for all the future difficulties (T5, mixed mode etc) that will come your way!!

;) ;) ;)

[Gonzo]

Chip,

Of course there are those at LL who might be more amenable to EFPS if they 'understood it' more, but by no means all. I think I understand EFPS pretty well, having been on the LL EFPS Working Group since it's inception, the LL Tech Com, and been involved in various meetiings, hazard analyses and Human Factors workshops, and an EFPS instructor in our sim.

As far as I understand it, from my contacts at KK and SS, there was the usual anti- feeling prior to the training, but as the training progressed, and familiarity was gained, the general feeling became more positive. We have nearly finished our training, and the majority opinion is still against it.

I know EFPS. I know exactly what to press and when. I know which button to use to get the desired outcome. I still make mistakes in the sim. I am by no means alone.

I will agree to this though; the view of T5 from the new tower will help us. Not sure about the rest of it though! :}

[Chip Dyson]

Of course there are those at LL who might be more amenable to EFPS if they 'understood it' more, but by no means all. I think I understand EFPS pretty well, having been on the LL EFPS Working Group since it's inception, the LL Tech Com, and been involved in various meetiings, hazard analyses and Human Factors workshops, and an EFPS instructor in our sim

I take your point but there is very little operational experience with EFPS at LL. My point was let those with operational experience and experience at LL help you. On my visit it was plain that people were determined that EFPS was a barrier to their controlling and not a help. With a little advice some of the 'issues' may be overcome and mistakes will be minimised.

[Hootin an a roarin]

I have sympathy with your problems with EFPS and the move.

HOWEVER. I cannot see what monetary compensation has got to do with this.

Other towers within NATS are airside I believe (PF), and Manchester has always been a pain in the arse to wait for, then catch the airport bus from the far car park to the tower.

So you get paid a 'bung'. What does that solve? You still have to face the problem every day.

Just smacks of moneygrabbing and frankly I am flabbergasted that our Union is backing this. It seems again the Band 5 units drive this union and everyone else, especially north of the border can take a running jump.

OK, we moved to a new tower recently that has adequate parking at the base.

If we were airside do you think the controllers at Heathrow would give 2 hoots about our problems? Also I could guarantee that our Union would not bat an eyelid at our moans and inconvenience.

Why don't the Heathrow boys not wait until the next pay negotiations when the gulf between us will no doubt be widened by another 5 - 10 grand!

Happy days!!!!

[Gonzo]

I don't believe anyone at LL said that money did have anything to do with it!:ugh:
The WP issues due to increased travel time are completely separate to any EFPS/NVCR issue.
Chip, please feel free, any advice gratefully received!:ok:

[DFC]

The WP issues due to increased travel time are completely separate to any EFPS/NVCR issue.

Be careful going down the old "traveling time is a problem" route.

To claim that traveling time is an issue, you will have to answer questions like..........why do staff who can afford to live closer choose to live so far from their work place?

If Management were on the ball, they would link any "traveling time" compensation to people who lived within a certain traveling time from the central area ( and make it small!!!)

A bigger issue would be what facilities are available for lunch break. Are you going to have all your lunch and drinks X-rayed or perhaps even confiscated should some security person decide that the colour of your liquid drink does not conform to some DfT guideline?

There is an issue..........but it not being looked at currently!!!

Regards,

DFC

[Hootin an a roarin]

Gonzo

If I have misunderstood this comment by you earlier on this page then I apologise, but mentioning pay surely suggests you are thinking of money.

"Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead?"

I don't trust this set of management, and we were told during the banding negotiations that we were 'lucky' that we were getting any pay rise (were you told that?), so why not a cut? Your 'compensation' has to come from somewhere.

Also

"Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances?"

No I don't agree. There will no doubt be some model/equation which works for some units and not for others (we can all guess which ones will be successful). We moved tower and 'compensation' did not enter our minds (maybe we have less of a money grabbing mindset). If it had one of my colleagues is high up on the BEC, and I can see him laughing at us now for the suggestion. You see we all live at the foot of your pedestal in the real world!

Yes I am cynical. I don't trust management, the union nor the Band 4/5 units that put 2 fingers up to us last time, and now you are looking for sympathy and compensation.

[throw a dyce]

Surely 10 Atcos can't all be plugging in at once at 7am.So what do the spare ones do.(EBS?)
There also must a certain amount of EG/late breaks as well.Do Management say anything?However if you rattle their cage?
There are units that are on airside and have to go through security.That process can take 20mins sometimes,especially with heavy traffic or if they throw your lunch in the bin,because it isn't PC.
Perhaps all units that are airside,with staff getting the treatment just to get to work,should get union support for compensation.Somehow i doubt it.
Maybe the Creme should just pitch up for work at the usual time,and close the airport for half an hour,while they fight their way in.It would concentrate the minds wonderfully.Don't think they would have the nerve to try it.:)

[Cahlibahn]

Are you guys real? I wish I lived in your world. Having said that post #9 struck a chord. The fact that the software SHOULD have been tested to the n'th degree is irrelevant. I guarantee you'll find snags on day one.

[Yellow Snow]

I have loads of mates from other units and I'm used to the "all Heathrow controllers are up there own ar$e To$$ers" banter, but I'm amazed by the lack of anti-heathrow feeling on here:ugh:
Most of you that make these comments probably haven't visited the tower ever! A lot of the negative feeling stems from years ago when Heathrow was very much a place where if your face didn't fit and got a deserved crappy reputation within the company, these days it's actually not at all a bad place to work with real grounded people, our demographic has changed so much in the last 6-7 years I've been here. So before one of you tries to go for a cheeky one liner, knocking the guys and gals here, that you may think is funny, perhaps you should think about exactly what do you know about heathrow and what you don't;) Rant over.


This arguement about the move, isn't a Band5 vs the rest of the company arguement, don't be so shallow. Whenever Heathrow has a concern and we ask for your support, are we meant to apologise in advance first, beacause our (Thats yours and mine) union, got Heathrow a good pay deal compared to the Band 1 and 2 units. Would Swanwick, TC and the college also have to come to you cap in hand, head bowed to get any support?:rolleyes:
This is an issue about the company screwing us over in the most short sighted manner, if they win this one who's next?


Consider the numbers, we're looking at a minimum 10 minutes extra to a max 30 minutes, so 20 minutes - 1 hour extra per day for each shift (an average of 40 minutes). How is this fair that the company can expect me just to swallow this. I choose to live close to work albeit in a much smaller property than some of my colleagues who live in excess of 1 hour from work in much larger properties, these are lifestyle choices. As a mobile grade I have no problems with having to move or change my lifestyle patterns, it's what I signed up to, but where is the assisted move or other support the company promised when I signed the mobile grade form? Admittedly my unit isn't changing, yet my place of wok is, by a considerable amount of time.


Going back to band 5 vs other units, we were very much told that our pay rises weren't about us being special and that we deserved them;) it was about staff retention and recruitment!!! Heathrow can't grow into a six terminal airport with 3 runways if we can't keep the staff we've got and attract good people from other units.
Furthermore if NATS gets us to move and in no way recompenses us for this extra time on each shift, there's even less chance someone from a lower banded unit, or even similar banded for arguements sake, is going to consider throwing their hat in the ring at LL.


This isn't about what's happened in the past, mistakes were made, it's about learning from the past and supporting your colleagues for the future, if we don't then it'll be the TC boys and gals that get shafted next! And if the band 1-4 units feel so strongly about this or just don't want to offer their suport because we got a better pay deal last time, you lot are also mobile grades so why not apply to join heathrow?
Or is it a lifestyle change you don't fancy but are quite happy to see your colleagues down south get dumped with?

[Hootin an a roarin]

Yellow Snow


"This arguement about the move, isn't a Band 5 vs the rest of the company arguement, don't be so shallow. Whenever Heathrow has a concern and we ask for your support, are we meant to apologise in advance first, beacause our (Thats yours and mine) union, got Heathrow a good pay deal compared to the Band 1 and 2 units. Would Swanwick, TC and the college also have to come to you cap in hand, head bowed to get any support?
This is an issue about the company screwing us over in the most short sighted manner, if they win this one who's next?"

Shallow, What a cheek! We asked for your support over the banding to vote NO as we were getting a crappy deal. What happened?

As for the company screwing you over and who is next? We have been thoroughly screwed and you could not give a toss so why should we?


I don't think the majority of the Band 5 guys quite realise how bitter the rest of us felt and still feel. This workforce will never stick together as management offer the guys at the top with the bigger voting power the bigger slice of the cake and no-one else can do anything about it. That's a democracy for you. Remember your morals at the next pay negotiations brother!

As for the predictable move to Heathrow crap. A lot of us have family issues that make that extremely awkward. Also most places, you as well I presume, are short of personnel and could not release anyway.

When management and the Union treat us all the same then we will all stick together but it never happens.

After all of my rant I still say I have the upmost sympathy with the EFPS. We have had the CSD, RIMCAS, Tower move, new phraesology not in Mats1 etc to get used to and it has been a complete shambles. I hope your move, apart from the monetary issue, goes smoothly.

By the way, how is Brentford?

[Yellow Snow]

Hootin
We asked for your support over the banding to vote NO as we were getting a crappy deal. What happened?
So by that logic, the entire union votes a majority yes, but this is Heathrows fault!
As for the company screwing you over and who is next? We have been thoroughly screwed and you could not give a toss so why should we?

Do you have the retention and recruitment problems LL has?
To say we didn't give a toss is a bit wide of the mark mate.
Is your bitterness because we're getting more toasters and microwaves in the new tower?:) ;)
Brentford is sunny today and looks forward to a visit from yourself and good lady in the new year!

[hold at SATAN]

Wowsers, I think management's plan to divide and conquer is working. Why can't we just all get along - sod the whole "you're band this I'm band that and so makes you lot a bunch of to$$ers and me the victim".

Most non LL people I know would hate to come to LL because they don't think the extra money warrants the hassle of living in the south/high workload/quality of life etc. But if you want to sail the band 5 seas, join us, (or LACC, TC or the college) and see if the grass is really greener

[Hootin an a roarin]

"So by that logic, the entire union votes a majority yes, but this is Heathrows fault"

Not what I am saying, but no doubt you voted yes and therefore have a part in it!

"Wowsers, I think management's plan to divide and conquer is working. Why can't we just all get along - sod the whole "you're band this I'm band that and so makes you lot a bunch of to$$ers and me the victim".

Where have you been? It worked when the banding issue was voted in and we have been split ever since. Now everyone below Band 5 is squabling over we should have what they have and we work harder than them etc. Scacc want West Drayton pay, Macc would want that if Scacc got it etc. Don't patronize me with the high moral ground. It's ok when you are sitting at the top of the tree

I believe even Southampton put it to conference to re-look at the banding equation but I don't know where they think they should go.

[throw a dyce]

Quite right Hootin,
So what are ''The Creme'' looking for? 1hr extra pay,or a set of climbing boots every 6 months? At what time limit does this kick in?
It's just that people at ''The Scum'' units feel that they have already had their pay cut to fund Band 5 units.
In the real world,our unit can have for example double digit traffic growth,450 movements a day with only 2 VCR controllers,4 runways,4 terminals,the requirement to validate Radar as well.We also have a big staff recruitment and retention problem.Band 2.Do we see the stampede of LL controllers offering support to improve our terms?:hmm: Not really.
Hey next time a foot of snow lands on my drive,I'll be bleating about a snowplough allowance cos it took me 40 mins longer to get to work.
Get walking boys and girls.Keep you fit.;)

[Yellow Snow]

Hootin,
Hypothetically, If Edi tower had gotten a huge payrise relevant to other units are you telling me you would've voted no? Horse's Ar$e you would've;)
It seems that because the union let you down, then the fault lies at the door of any band 5 unit or controller (presumably because of the large voting block), so whatever gripe they have now or in the future they can go swivel as far as your concerned??? I'm not trying to wind you up just looking for clarafication.
I believe even Southampton put it to conference to re-look at the banding equation but I don't know where they think they should go
Can you better elaborate or clarify this also as it could be taken the wrong way.
Don't patronize me with the high moral ground. It's ok when you are sitting at the top of the tree
It's not an exclusive party anyone can apply and get on the lift to tree heaven
A lot of us have family issues that make that extremely awkward
The above in relation to moving to a band 5 unit, but as a mobile grade you'd have no choice if the company said "We think you've got a lot of potential, you've got 3 months and then you're being transferred to Heathrow/TC/Swanwick"
And finally, Hold at Satan
Most non LL people I know would hate to come to LL because they don't think the extra money warrants the hassle of living in the south/high workload/quality of life etc. But if you want to sail the band 5 seas, join us, (or LACC, TC or the college) and see if the grass is really greener
There's even less chance of our bretheren coming to see if the grass is greener at the top of the tree, if NSL management cannot come up with a long term solution to the extra duty time the new tower forces on us!

[Yellow Snow]

Throw a dyce
Do we see the stampede of LL controllers offering support to improve our terms?

No you don't, because it's only on forums like these or over a beer that we find out what your real problems and gripes are. But your comment once again proves my point that your anger is with the band 5 units not the union, who should be doing a better job to let us know what's going on at the units around the country, we shouldn't have to rely on PPrune.

Get walking boys and girls.Keep you fit

That's just it, we've campaigned for a travellator to be installed linking us direct from the car park, underground to the new tower, with associated bar and snacks on route and a couple of fluffers, so that we all arrive relaxed and ready to work.
Would you believe management rejected it out of hand, and there's me thinking band 5 were special, I might apply to join your unit, if the snow is greener;)

[Hootin an a roarin]

Yellow Snow

"Hypothetically, If Edi tower had gotten a huge payrise relevant to other units are you telling me you would've voted no? "

It wasn't so a mute point. You all voted yes and split eveyone. Look at the Prospect annual report and conference agenda. Most units are bitching about Banding and see themselves as moving up. Management with the aid of the Union succeeded in splitting us, caused great resentment and I can't see a way back.

"It seems that because the union let you down, then the fault lies at the door of any band 5 unit or controller (presumably because of the large voting block), so whatever gripe they have now or in the future they can go swivel as far as your concerned??? "

Yes. What do you expect me to say. You voted yourselves a huge pay rise and didn't look back at us. So if you have problems can you really blame me for showing no support.

You will find that NEARLY every time someone comes on here saying "isn't it time we forgot the banding squabbling" it usually comes from someone sitting at a Band 5 unit. I'm all right Jack!!!

The only issue we can stay together on is hopefully pensions. However if something crafty is brought in to offer certain units (you can guess which ones they would be) a better deal the same thing will happen again. I'm sure this would not be possible but you never know.

Cheers mate. I'm off to do a bit of radar now as part of my second validation. That's the big screen with strange lines and writing on it!!! :p

[Gonzo]

Sorry guys, been away for the last 24hrs. :}

Just have to clairfy something, Hootin'.......

If I have misunderstood this comment by you earlier on this page then I apologise, but mentioning pay surely suggests you are thinking of money.

"Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead?"

I said compensation. I belive the original request from Prospoect was TOIL. I am thinking of adequate compensation, whichever form it comes in.

[throw a dyce]

I know,you could get a company rickshaw.Get the trainees or Band 1&2 controllers down for some TOIL,and pull you guys along to your new golf tee.Send them out on cha runs to keep their masters happy.:E

[eastern wiseguy]

pull you guys along


That wouldn't work....you NEVER ever turn your back on royalty:hmm:

[callyoushortly]

Sorry guys, been away for the last 24hrs. :}
Just have to clairfy something, Hootin'.......
I said compensation. I belive the original request from Prospoect was TOIL. I am thinking of adequate compensation, whichever form it comes in.

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but I just don't get why you're looking for some sort of compensation because your place of work has moved by 10 minutes?!:hmm: You're a mobile grade aren't you? The company is mobilising you airside.
It's not like you're being moved the 200 or so miles that the MACC guys are being moved. :sad:

[Gonzo]

It's more like 30 minutes inbound to work, and 20 minutes outbound. If your management arbitrarily decided to increase your shift lenghts by those times, would you all just accept, or negotiate compensation? If they posted you to PF from PH, would you not anticipate a relocation package?:confused:

[chevvron]

5 bands are too many; there should be 3 at the most, and the all too huge differentials between 1 and 3 should be reduced, otherwise no-one will want to go to the lowest band units, hence lack of experienced people to be transferred to higher banded units when needed.

[viaEGLL]

You don't need the any compensation GONZO!!!
You just need to live closer!!!

[Gonzo]

And I'd expect a relocation package for that, of course. :ugh:

[viaEGLL]

Well my journey time will increase by 20mins when relocation to Swanwick happens and i can't move:eek: :eek:

[Gonzo]

So I assume that you are also against all your colleagues at TC, who are eligible, receiving relocation. Correct?

[viaEGLL]

Of course !!They are paid far too much and should be able to do it out of the goodness of their hearts:O :O

[Neptune262]

Gonzo, I would say that relocation to a different ATC Unit and your issue are two different subjects.

As I understand it, you are being made to travel longer within the airport to get to work.

OK, this is not a great situation but I do not believe that you should be compensated. You are not, after all, on shift during this extra time. This is just that your working environment has changed. You either accept it, as controllers accept change regularly, or find that the situation is unacceptable for you and look for another post. If enough EGLL TWR Controllers expressed their wished to leave, then you might have something happen.

I would push your management to provide you with the time that they require within the airport to get to work - such that if the airport were not transporting you to your place of work within the prescribed time, then it is not your fault! This however could be problematic for logistic reasons.

I assume that you have already approached your direct managers and requested some assistance with this matter, if not, then try that. (Free coffee machine maybe??)

If the union believe you have a case to argue, then so be it, but I fully understand all the other controllers having a problem with you requesting more money for this.

A small example - the staff carpark that was used, is to be built on with an airport building - another staff carpark is allocated but involves longer walking distance to work - should all airport employees be compensated for this?

Not as extreme an example as yours but what do you think?

[GT3]

I fully understand all the other controllers having a problem with you requesting more money for this.

Ok once and for all it is not a request for extra money :ugh: . It was an option that local management looked into but the local Prospect committee wanted "compensation" in the form of TIME.

[viaEGLL]

Time is money :O :O

[Gonzo]

A small example - the staff carpark that was used, is to be built on with an airport building - another staff carpark is allocated but involves longer walking distance to work - should all airport employees be compensated for this?

Why not? What is it to me? Some might feel they should, some might not. I certainly wouldn't go around decrying those that ask for something in return.

[throw a dyce]

All your going to manage to get is a clocking on/off system,like thousand of workers.Whats the bet that Nats would put that in nationwide.Any e.g. will count against you big time.Ever heard of negative TOIL?
Thanks LL.Going to get s:mad: fted again thanks to you feeling hard done by.:D

[nodelay]

And Gonzo, where exactly are they moving you to? Ahh yes - Heathrow. That's Heathrow to Heathrow. Correct? I wonder how many Heathrow workers would actually go to the trouble of moving house so that they could be 20 minutes closer to work? How many of you, if the company offered you a paid move, would up sticks to be closer to Heathrow by 20 minutes.

I wonder, looking at the number of Heathrow members posting on this thread which is fairly small (the usual suspects one might say!:O ) in relation to the total number of staff, you are actually in a minority and don't represent the majority view. This being the case, we outsiders are obviously the victims of a little LL amusement known as 'baiting'!!

[callyoushortly]

It's more like 30 minutes inbound to work, and 20 minutes outbound. If your management arbitrarily decided to increase your shift lenghts by those times, would you all just accept, or negotiate compensation? If they posted you to PF from PH, would you not anticipate a relocation package?:confused:
This travel time keeps changing depending on who's talking?!? :E
If management decided to change shift times/lengths, they'd have to renegotiate WP, end of story.
If I was posted from PH to PF, I'd be in a completely different situation to you, of course ;) but I'm fairly sure that the last 4 controllers/ATSA's to go either way, didn't get any relocation because the relatively short distance between the units puts you inside the mileage from work to qualify. Besides, quite a lot of people live fairly well in the middle of the units so they don't move house anyway, and the travel time is broadly similar (though more treacherous going west in the mornings!)
And I'd expect a relocation package for that, of course. :ugh:
Lots of people move house whilst remaining at the same unit! Maybe we should all be entitled to assisted house moves whenever we decided we didn't like our commute or needed a change of scenery.
All your going to manage to get is a clocking on/off system,like thousand of workers.Whats the bet that Nats would put that in nationwide.Any e.g. will count against you big time.Ever heard of negative TOIL?
Thanks LL.Going to get s:mad: fted again thanks to you feeling hard done by.:D
Interesting thoguht, probably true! I wonder how it would be policed if the creme de la creme got their way and ended up being 'paid' TOIL for this?

[Silk Merchant]

The Heathrow WP is up for renegotiation. Suggestions include
more early starts
more late stays
AAVA cover subject to WM discretion (i.e. no automatic call in to cover absence)
longer day duties
oh - and NATS wil not ever offer anything for a move to a new tower.
Just rumour at present, but a full breifing is expected soon from the union reps.
SM

[Hootin an a roarin]

"The Heathrow WP is up for renegotiation."

By a coincidence so is ours. Therefore any 'compensation' (money, extra leave etc are all welcome) may be due to us as well, if we are to be 'inconvenienced' by changing it.

However I will not hold my breath.

[Yellow Snow]

What do you suggest Hootin?

A pro rata payment for the number of cups of tea and biscuits consumed whilst in position? You'd be on more than me mate, and I'm creme de la creme (Band 5);)

[terrain safe]

Been looking at this thread for a while but I've been holding my breath, waiting to see if I could offer anything helpful. When I left LL 15 years ago there was much talk of where the new tower was going to go. It was to be at the end of the Kilo/hotel apron i.e. where it is now. So unless you started longer than 15 years ago you can't complain as it was well known that you were going to move there eventually IMHO. As for being a longer shift I well remember having to arrive 45 mins before shift to get on the bus on the northside, standing up with my head (not by choice!) in some smelly armpit sweltering in 85 degree heat:eek: :sad:. Didn't get any extra for it . Did like getting a T3 pass though!!;)

As for your WP negotiation giving you nothing, I expect you will get a pen or glass or something:ugh::ugh:!

[Hootin an a roarin]

Yellow Snow

How about a pro rata payment on how many times a day you can be rude to pilots.

I should do quite well then ;)

[Gonzo]

My last post on the subject, news which some of you will no doubt welcome. :rolleyes:

Cally;

This travel time keeps changing depending on who's talking?!?

Because the travel time changes depending on how quickly (or perhaps I should say how slowly) one can get through security. I know of one person who went over to the new tower the other day and took 40 minutes in the staff search queue. The figure of ten mintues is fanciful. I'll certainly be looking to arrive at the staff search with at least 30 minutes slack.

If I was posted from PH to PF, I'd be in a completely different situation to you, of course but I'm fairly sure that the last 4 controllers/ATSA's to go either way, didn't get any relocation because the relatively short distance between the units puts you inside the mileage from work to qualify. Besides, quite a lot of people live fairly well in the middle of the units so they don't move house anyway, and the travel time is broadly similar

Well, there you are, you've answered your own point.

nodelay;

I wonder, looking at the number of Heathrow members posting on this thread which is fairly small (the usual suspects one might say! ) in relation to the total number of staff, you are actually in a minority and don't represent the majority view.

Correct, but not in the way you think it is. In fact, it might surprise you to know, that I'm considered a fairly rational and moderate voice on this issue. I know many of my colleagues have stronger views on this than I.

This being the case, we outsiders are obviously the victims of a little LL amusement known as 'baiting'!!

No need to flatter yourself, we're far too busy have airmisses over the channel to waste time like that! :E

Hootin';
By a coincidence so is ours. Therefore any 'compensation' (money, extra leave etc are all welcome) may be due to us as well, if we are to be 'inconvenienced' by changing it.

Good on you. If Management want something, then you negotiate something for for the ATCOs in compensation, whatever that might be. Simple concept, that many here seem unable to fathom.

terrain safe;
I knew LACC was going to open (at some point) when I applied to NATS in '97, I'm sure it was on the cards well before that. We could go round and round on this subject for days! :}

And on a serious note, NATS gave me a glass tankard just the other week, so I dearly hope we don't get another! Now I do need a new pen, though......:O

[BDiONU]

Because the travel time changes depending on how quickly (or perhaps I should say how slowly) one can get through security. I know of one person who went over to the new tower the other day and took 40 minutes in the staff search queue. The figure of ten mintues is fanciful. I'll certainly be looking to arrive at the staff search with at least 30 minutes slack.
I visited the new tower yesterday before coming out to Oslo again (for those who might be wondering why I've been so quiet recently). We were 20 mins in the security queue and then faced the long walk through T3 to gate 22 etc. So I understand the difficulties of getting to the new tower now. However I note that there is no mention in this thread of the shuttle bus which is being provided (at a cost to NSL of 157k pa) from the T1 car park to the tower from about 6am to midnight every day.
Other carps I've picked up on in earlier threads have been about things like strips scrolling off EFPS, no mention that its been addressed by providing 2 EFPS screens so they don't scroll off. Carp about the stainless steel loo, replaced by porcelain (in process of yesterday) and lots of white goods going into the rest room as well. Food issues, I was told, will be dealt with similarly to currently, Eurest will provide milk etc and buffet lunch (at company expense). They're also looking at a deli order type facility for delivery by Eurest.

I'm disappointed (but not surprised) to see that management are addressing the carps but there is no mention of that in pprune, only a long list of moans. I'n not sticking up for management here but I think things have been and still are very one sided in here.

BD

[Gonzo]

Sorry, last one. Promise

When I took the minibus, it took 15 minutes to drive from CP7 to the NVCR. Not that much quicker than walking.

What white goods? Only a micro and fridge freezer are allowed.

Oh, and did anyone mention the lack of plumbed drinking water? :ugh:

Eurest will provide milk etc and buffet lunch (at company expense). They're also looking at a deli order type facility for delivery by Eurest.

Perhaps if they told the staff this, there'd be less complaints. This is the first I've heard of lunch and deli orders :confused:

[2miles600feet]

Perhaps if they told the staff this, there'd be less complaints. This is the first I've heard of lunch and deli orders :confused:

Perhaps if you spent less time complaining (about virtually everything it seems), your management might feel more inclined to treat you with the utmost respect you obviously feel you deserve.

[25check]

Sorry, last one. Promise
When I took the minibus, it took 15 minutes to drive from CP7 to the NVCR. Not that much quicker than walking.


Why didn't the minibus driver take the freeranging taxiway route, surely that would take a lot less time. Presumably he didn't have the appropriate airside driving pass?

[747-436]

Why didn't the minibus driver take the freeranging taxiway route, surely that would take a lot less time. Presumably he didn't have the appropriate airside driving pass?

I think the only people who have those sort of rights are tug drivers, Airfield Ops, Fire, Police etc.
I wouldn't have thought a minibus driver would get one of those. I doubt you are even allowed a passenger carrying vehicle such as a minibus on the Taxiways anyway unless under escort from Airfield Ops.

[SilentHandover]

Free range driving permits are driver specific at Gatwick, our minibus is equipped with radios and beacon so it can be free-ranged on the airfield.

[747-436]

Free range driving permits are driver specific at Gatwick, our minibus is equipped with radios and beacon so it can be free-ranged on the airfield.


Fair enough then, that might be an idea to get the bus round quicker!!

[throw a dyce]

I'm surprised there is no staff channel through security.In HK we had a similar trek to work through the terminal,but the process was vastly quicker as we very seldom had a wait at security.They used to move pax out of the way to let us through.(Royality eh:ok: ) We also had to pass through immigration to leave work.No problems.
There was never any gripes about the trip through the terminal.Plenty about where they put the airport though.I think it's the LL creme have never had to pass through airport security before to get to work,and they resent it.
Just wait they'll be moaning that it sways in the wind,making them sick.Also in low cloud cover the VCR is IMC,but the airport is OK.No doubt there will be another £150K found to pamper them again.:p

[725308]

I understand, correct me if I am wrong please, that the old tower was not airside, so now that it is you guys should be issued security IDs to work and go airside.
This in turn would allow you through security in the terminal through the staff route? I assume they have one at T3?

[Yellow Snow]

BDiONU

You make some very good points, it isn't all doom and gloom, I for one am looking forward to the move. The are, or have been, problems with communication, so the operational staff have had some worries only recently appeased re food and catering, gonzo is coorect though in that there is no plumbed drinking water, although I believe management are going to provide us with bottled water. It had better be Perrier or I'm out the door;) And not of that fizzy rubbish.



2miles600feet
Perhaps if you spent less time complaining (about virtually everything it seems), your management might feel more inclined to treat you with the utmost respect you obviously feel you deserve.

A bit of an unfair criticism of Gonzo, if your just trying to bait him then fair enough:E , but he's a good guy and a valuable contributor to these boards, you can't knock him for listing the negatives since that's pretty much the crux of this thread!



747-436

Most controllers have free ranging driving permits, however it seems our bus drivers don't at the moment, I'm sure this can be sorted in the short term hopefully.



725308
I understand, correct me if I am wrong please, that the old tower was not airside, so now that it is you guys should be issued security IDs to work and go airside.
This in turn would allow you through security in the terminal through the staff route? I assume they have one at T3?

Everything you say here is correct, however if you've ever seen the staff route at T3 it can take up to 20 minutes at shift change over times, equally other times it can take less than 5.

[747-436]

There are staff security points in all the terminals but these are still busy and sometimes shut as BAA are short of staff and staff get pulled to cover the passenger terminals. Certainly happens down Terminal 4 way.

Years ago in 2000 when I worked at Terminal 3 for a year there was a security post tucked away in the departures baggage processing area. Could be airside in less than 2 minutes.

Don't think you could do that now days though!!

[25check]

Eurest will provide milk etc and buffet lunch (at company expense). They're also looking at a deli order type facility for delivery by Eurest.
BD


Are we suggesting buffet lunches as a matter of course here?!! At occasional meetings maybe, but as a regular thing? I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick there;)

Still, a good rumour for Heathrow bashers to add to their ammunition!

[point5]

The times mentioned for transitting security ARE using the designated staff routes. Its not only ATC who start work at 7am!

[Point Seven]

I'm surprised there is no staff channel through security.In HK we had a similar trek to work through the terminal,but the process was vastly quicker as we very seldom had a wait at security.They used to move pax out of the way to let us through.(Royality eh:ok: ) We also had to pass through immigration to leave work.No problems.
There was never any gripes about the trip through the terminal.Plenty about where they put the airport though.I think it's the LL creme have never had to pass through airport security before to get to work,and they resent it.
Just wait they'll be moaning that it sways in the wind,making them sick.Also in low cloud cover the VCR is IMC,but the airport is OK.No doubt there will be another £150K found to pamper them again.:p

I am astounded that you wasted time typing this drivel. I am thoroughly bored of your continued baiting of the LL controllers. I will re-iterate something that has already been posted but you clearly appear to have missed - the LL controllers are getting NOTHING for moving. Not a bean. What they have been offered is time for working more hours in their WP. And you may well perceive them as being pampered but most large companies look after employees that they value. It is something known as "good business".

Secondly, when the tower is in cloud this is a situation known as ICAO Vis 2. There are procedures for this - you might like to read them.

Thirdly, the word is ROYALTY.

P7

[Hootin an a roarin]

And you may well perceive them as being pampered but most large companies look after employees that they value. It is something known as "good business".
P7

That is why Throw a Dyce and the likes of me feel aggrieved. We at the 'regional' units are obviously not 'valued' by this company. Good to see you Heathrow boys obviously agree with this policy as you have just stated above! Arrogant?

[Gonzo]

I really don't know why I bother, but anyway....

If your WP meant that you'd be working more than the max number of hours per week in the model, then you would also get days given back to you to bring the average hours worked under that maximum. If you don't understand what I just said, ask your union reps.

[GT3]

However I note that there is no mention in this thread of the shuttle bus which is being provided (at a cost to NSL of 157k pa) from the T1 car park to the tower from about 6am to midnight every day.

Well :mad:k my 100K a year salary! I'm going to be a 157K a year bus driver :E

[Gonzo]

GT3, or maybe they're spending 15k on the driver, and 142k on the bus? Only the best for us M+S organic Creme boys! :}

[Point Seven]

That is why Throw a Dyce and the likes of me feel aggrieved. We at the 'regional' units are obviously not 'valued' by this company. Good to see you Heathrow boys obviously agree with this policy as you have just stated above! Arrogant?

Surprise, surprise. Another comment accusing LL of being arrogant. :hmm:

I pointed out that what is happening is NOT pampering but good business sense (as a means of putting down yet another sniping comment at LL) and then get accused of arrogance. What a marvellously intuitive mind you have. I neither agreed or disagreed with the policy, that is something that you kindly decided for me.

i'm a fully paid up and active member of our union and i wholeheartedly want to get the best deal for ALL of the NATS ATCOs not just LL. So if you want to have a proper conversation about this issue, get that chip of your shoulder and stop putting words into my mouth.

P7

[Hootin an a roarin]

Point Seven

I was replying to your point that this company looks after the people that they value, your quote. If they then always seem to give the Band 5 guys the better deal, then it does not take a genius to work out that everyone else is not valued. That then generates resentment or in your words 'a chip on the shoulder'.

"And you may well perceive them as being pampered but most large companies look after employees that they value."

We are arguing here about Heathrow. If you use this statement it is insinuating that NATS values Heathrow (obvious) and looks after them but what about the rest of us? Maybe it's just my 'marvellously intuitive mind' but that's why we feel resentful and want an even playing field.

We have moved tower, are renegotiating WP but do not seem to get the same backing off the union as others in the 'limelight'.

Hope that is less offensive, wouldn't want to upset you :zzz:

[GT3]

Re: "backing of the union"

It was a local negotiation until NSL took it upon themselves to get involved. It then became a national issue. Something that the local reps and I suspect local management did not think would happen.

It did, NSL management have tabled the offer on WP. Should we reject it on the basis an ATCO at EDI and another at Aberdeen* are complaining on PPRune about our pampered ways?





*mereley using the last few posts as examples here.

[throw a dyce]

[QUOTE=Point Seven;2998531]i'm a fully paid up and active member of our union and i wholeheartedly want to get the best deal for ALL of the NATS ATCOs not just LL. So if you want to have a proper conversation about this issue, get that chip of your shoulder and stop putting words into my mouth.
P7,
You are supposed to start a sentence with a capital,and use capitals for I.:ouch:
Well it does look like The Creme de la Creme as turned a wee bit sour.:hmm: Sorry about my typo.Got to really dot the i and cross the t.Not sorry about the drivel though.Interesting how a lot of what is being said is put to one side as it might have some truth to it.Anyway £157k p.a. could pay for a lot of lower Band Atcos to get some reward for the work they actually do.That's before LL get compensation for having to walk a bit further.Pour souls.

[GT3]

So this 157k is that confirmed? Or is it PPrune rumour?

[fly bhoy]

[QUOTE=throw a dyce;2998777.Anyway £157k p.a. could pay for a lot of lower Band Atcos to get some reward for the work they actually do.That's before LL get compensation for having to walk a bit further.Pour souls.[/QUOTE]

And while we're at it we could also get rid of the cars that gatwick controllers use to get to their tower and make them walk a bit further eh?!? Just to "give a lower band atco some reward"?!? And the same applies to any other unit that has some form of transport to take them to their tower eh?!? What a load of nonsense!!!:mad: :ouch:

FB:ok:

[terrain safe]

If your WP meant that you'd be working more than the max number of hours per week in the model, then you would also get days given back to you to bring the average hours worked under that maximum. If you don't understand what I just said, ask your union reps./ rant on But you're NOT working them are you? Just walking them! Otherwise people who have to move office from one end of Swanwick to the other, would have to renegotiate their WP to either get more money or give it back. Just get real and if you don't like it resign as I think most other units really don't want to hear it as we're all trying to sort out our own problems. I think that you need to work in the real world such as non NATS to realise how lucky we are. /rant off

:ok:

[radar707]

The thing that gets me :mad: with this is the fact that our colleagues at LL seem to think that the fact it MAY take an extra 20 minutes to get to work deserves some sort of recompense either in the form of a cash payment or TOIL (which will have to be bought back by NATS since there will no doubt not be enough available leave to take the TOIL)
Whichever way you look at it, it is NATS pampering the babies at LL who have thrown teddy out of the cot because they have to get out of bed a bit earlier.

Welcome to the world of the regional airports who have to deal with the same old :mad: handed down by management on a daily basis and who also moan and groan but nothing gets done because "we don't have the money"

As I understand it AAVA's are rostered at LL just in case someone is sick (I stand to be corrected on that point). Us poor buggers at the regionals are being told to cut back on AAVA's and close positions because the budget won't allow for it.

We might not move the big jets but we move a hell of a lot of little things mixed in with the big jets, do we moan and groan NO we do the job we are paid to do and get out of bed when we need to to get to work.

Point 7 you were the baby on the course, you and you're colleagues are acting like babies now, time to grow up := :=

[Gonzo]

terrain safe,

We will be working them. The increased shift times are rostered shift times. I can not make this any more clear! Just picking one aspect of the new WP, there will be three ATCOs working 1430-2300 in the NVCR, rather than one presently. There is also a 1330-2200 shift, which is one hour longer, and a 1030-1900, again an hour longer. This does not include travel time. I say again, rostered working shifts have increased in length. Rostered working shifts means the length of time between the time I have to be plugged in and the time at which I unplug and go home. Hence giving us TOIL to get the average hours per week under the maximum. :ugh:

Radar 707, AAVAs are not rostered because someone 'might' go sick. You are now corrected.

[GT3]

Terrain Safe - No the new WP proposal is that we work those hours, they are not "travel time" or anything like that. NSL will NOT pay for travel time.

Radar 707 - Our AAVAs are NOT rostered. Whoever told you that is speaking crap.

[GT3]

Oh and Gonzo, on the correction theme ;) its not TOIL but annual leave that is being given to reduce the hours below 33.125.

[Gonzo]

Yes, sorry GT3. Well spotted. Deliberate error. :O

[Point Seven]

Point 7 you were the baby on the course,

No I wasn't, I merely look younger than I actually am.

But it is nice to see that ONCE AGAIN, those poor hard done to souls up North feel the need to resort to name calling and chiding the NATS staff who are trying to get some more for themselves.

I commend you.

P7

[SonicTPA]

This is just a question, and nothing is implied by it!

33.125 hours is mentioned a few posts above. Is this the maximum hours per week in your WP?

[GT3]

I think it is the target hours. I am not at all au fait with how a WP works, so I leave that to those who really do know about it.

[Pickled Pheasant]

I feel I have to join this spat between north and south as I've been fuming about all the rubbish spoken about Heathrow by those who do not have a clue what they are talking about. When was the last time your unit worked 80-85 movements per hour from 0700 until 2300 without a break, without being able to bandbox any positions, and the staff had almost forgotten what early go's looked like as they were still going hell for leather when the night shift came on.

Please do not compare Heathrow to ANY other airport until you have come and seen what we do. Yes, you all work hard, doing radar etc, but can you say honestly that you do not get a break on the R/T for 1 minute. We do not. We do not complain about it either. We love Heathrow, that is why we work there. Who in their right mind would seek high house prices, congestion on the M25, exorbitant beer prices, and a 20 minute walk to work and be pleased to do it. Yes, you've guessed it, those Band 5 nutters who think they are better than you, who go to all those courses and rub your noses in it, and all those prima donnas who have now retired. If you think that Heathrow still thinks that way, you need to come and see that our average age is now around 30 and that we do not fit your outdated, and frankly, outrageous view of a Unit that shifts a hell of a lot of traffic with a dwindling number of people. If we negotiate something that we feel strongly enough about, do not have a go at us. If we win or lose, that is our problem. We realise that you got a bad deal. Do you want me to set up a standing order to you because I feel sorry for you? Having to leave work earlier to reach the new VCR does have an effect on my family and my way of life. I do have to give up my own time to now arrive at work on time. I will continue to work at Heathrow. I will continue to enjoy it, and I will be glad to show you round should you wish to come and smell the coffee before you pour it down the drain!

[Pickled Pheasant]

Sorry, did not mean the bit about the standing order. I'm just a bit fed up with the comparison debate. You choose to live there, I choose to live here. It costs me a lot to live here...

[Lon More]

Yawn

"Divide and conquer" and "Horses for courses" springs to mind.

100% (g)nats, maybe time to move it to their forum?

[vespasia]

Pickled Pheasant, I'm glad you enjoy LL and I have the greatest respect for what you guys are doing there, but that's a two way street and those at LL have to show the same respect for what other ATCOs do.
Your first paragraph shows up the problems between units - 80-85 movements per hour is not relevant, it's the number of movements per ATCO and the task complexity which is important. A single ATCO handling 20 - 25 movements an hour in a complex situation is working every bit as hard as LL are. And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it.
It's time we ALL appreciated what others do, and I don't think you're doing that. Maybe you should reverse your offer and go to see some other units as well. What I infer from this thread generally is NOT that people don't appreciate how hard others work, it's that most don't know how hard others work.
At my unit, I don't get more than a 1 minute break on the RT either, but hey, that's the job - I love it too, I chose it and I wouldn't do anything else. I also know that some at "quieter" units have their moments as well. I can still admire the professionalism they display, and it seems to me that's what it should be about!
:ok:

[nodelay]

Thankyou Vespasia for talking some sense.

I can think of another unit in the south east that also has to put up with high house prices, high traffic loading (long after LL ATCO's have finished talking to aircraft at night); who have the skill to intergrate and push the traffic enabling them to claim the airport as the worlds busiest single runway, high cost of living, M25 and M23 to cope with and who also have to pass through security to get airside which can take 20 minutes. Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing.

Pickled Peasant - Get your head out of the sand open your eyes, look around and you will see that you are not the only air traffic unit around. Speak to anybody from London City, they will tell you that they too are very busy, having recently set a new daily record. How much more do they get paid for working in a 'high cost of living area?' Not as much as you.

Oh how to win friends and influence people.

[Pickled Pheasant]

Good morning all,

As you all say, other airports are available, they work very hard and believe it or not, we do notice. What I was trying to get over is that we are fed up of being sniped at by people who do not know what Heathrow is like now. Vespasia is right in that we do not realise everything that others do, but I do not remember pulling anyone else's Unit apart from afar in my post. no delay, you are right about City, great job. If I could get them more pay do you think I would'nt?

[Yellow Snow]

Guys and Gals?

Please, everyone take a deep breath.

Let's try not to start comparing each others c:mad: k sizes here.

I've visited a lot of NATS units and at everyone of them I've been trully impressed at what my colleagues do. This isn't about your unit is busier or more complex than mine.....

Pickled Pheasant has come on here not to rattle cages, but to point out that Heathrow is a stupidly busy and complex unit, yet he/she loves the job with all the crap that's thrown in with it, I'm guessing that at whatever unit in NATS your at, we can all find common ground here, certainly at the units I've visited north and south of the border the above statement rings true. From reading this thread, it does seem that so many of you still subscribe to the belief that all Heathrow controllers are w:mad: ers, yet how many of you have visited the unit and really seen what a pleasant place to work it is these days?

nodelay
I think KK does an astounding job with a single runway, and I'm yet to find an LL colleague who thinks otherwise, when mixed mode comes in , we may need to learn a few things or 10 from KK. Shall we get a room?;)

However, Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing

You simply cannot make a like for like comparison with our operation and yours re EFPS builds, this is unfair. Our EFPS is a more complex build than yours because of T4 runway crossing and the numerous GMC positions, and you need to factor in the fact that we're aren't sitting next to each other anymore for non-verbal co-ordination.

vespasia

Good post fella :ok:

And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it

What PP is getting at is the fact that the traffic is constantly at this rate between these hours of the day.


Regarding the offer on the table from NSL.
We are getting not a penny in travel time to the new tower, the money is purely for working longer shift times in the NVCR. So as much as some of you would like to use this to bait us further or throw your toys out of the pram, we're getting this money for providing an extended service nothing else!

Radar707 your coment about AAVA's just shows the misinformation and lack of appreciation around the country about LL. How many others out there are standing to be corrected about stuff they think they know about LL?


Everyone.
If you don't think we should get anything for travel time to the new tower, then that's fine, you've made your point we've made ours! If it's because you didn't get it in the past or you think it's part and parcel of the job then fine, but if your just being arsey because you got the raw end of the pay deal and you think we are gold plated prima donnas, then spare a thought for the ATSA's, TELS, and all the non-op support staff who are getting nothing also! When we were negotiating locally it was a case of anything we got they got too.
But I guess that north of the border you already knew that anyway?


Finally,
If the band 1,2 and 3 units are going to stubbornly attack us at every chance they get about our T and Ps compared to theirs reagrdless of the issue on the table, I hope you will reconsider your ways when the pensions issue comes round, as for once, it would be nice, no how about fu:mad: ing critical that we stuck together and actually acted like profesionals.

See ya around

YS:ok:

[Tin Rib Tilly]

Somebody beat me to it but I'll have my twopenneth worth - Why have you all spiralled in to a self destructive bitching debate.

Where's the debate?

Move this into the NATS forum and stop this feeding frenzy :ugh:

[Gonzo]

Or perhaps those not interested could just refrain from clicking on the thread?

[hold at SATAN]

Spot on TRT, this is an NATS issue and ought to be moved to the NATS forum, or even better : END IT NOW as our non-EGLL brethren have made up their minds about EGLL based on misconceptions and pre-judgement - fair enough as they probably have no reason to want to come to EGLL to see what really goes on.

And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know

But seriously, gt3, gonzo and pals, lets just leave it now and get on with our 'gold-plated' lives, drinking bollinger on our yachts. Cheers :ok:

[GT3]

I drink Cristal manily Satan ;)

[London Mil]

From a non-NATS perspective, I find this discusson mildly amusing. Some impartial thoughts:

In my dealings with NATS (albeit NERL as opposed to NSL) I have found the safety management regime to be all encompassing. Personally, I would be very suprised (worried?) if NATS hadn't safety managed the whole EFPS thing to death.

As far as extra time getting to work, welcome to the real world. Ever the optimist, maybe the extra walk will assist with individuals' health.;)

Already said by others, is this discussion not better placed on a closed forum?

[Lon More]

Further to walk = less distancre to drive = less petrol consumed = reduction in salary.
QED

As already stated, move it to your private forum; Leave it here, or even better, move it to JB where the real :hmm: experts can rip into it

[Hootin an a roarin]

If the band 1,2 and 3 units are going to stubbornly attack us at every chance they get about our T and Ps compared to theirs reagrdless of the issue on the table, I hope you will reconsider your ways when the pensions issue comes round, as for once, it would be nice, no how about fu:mad: ing critical that we stuck together and actually acted like profesionals.



Yellow Snow

I agree this is getting out of hand. Yet this comment above leads me to feel that you still don't get our point. You say we should stick together with pensions. I say we should have stuck together with banding. What is to say that again if (again I doubt that they could but you never know) management manage to give the area and band 5 airport atco's a better deal YOU will vote for yourselves and not stick with us. I would guarantee if you counted the units as one vote per unit then the last pay offer would not have gone through. It did not favour the majority of units, especially the ones north of London

It is not an inferiority complex or us feeling sorry for ourselves. I am paid well as are you. BUT when the pay rises, benefits, compensation etc, is divided up and YOU get things and we don't, you are in theory taking it from my pocket and I object to that. We should all get a share.
We just do not have the same bargaining power as you, EGPD have more controllers than you but are not in the 'limelight' and are not 'valued' as high as you, as the esteemed Point7 kindly stated.

The point of a Union is to stick together and look after all, ESPECIALLY the minority who usually are 'walked on' by management. However this does not seem to happen in NATS. I'm sure someone will come on with the usual 'get involved or shut up' claptrap. However as a shopfloor ATCO3, who pays his subs for representation I am telling you how the majority of regional controllers feel.

The personal jibes have got out of hand. You work hard down there and are professionals like the rest of us. BUT you are well paid for it. Your scale goes up to £80 grand I believe which is way above ours. And now it seems you will be granted even more benefits. That is when it looks like you are taking the p*ss. You are looking after yourselves, fair enough, but the benefits you gain should apply to all and they won't.


Hold at Satan

"And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know"

I thought we were one company and you wanted us to 'stick together'? It is naive/ignorant comments like this that breeds resentment/division.



Bloody hell, I haven't written that much since my last 4114 ;)

[Point Seven]

... the esteemed Point7

Thank you Sir

P7

[eastern wiseguy]

I drink Cristal manily Satan

how butch:E

[hold at SATAN]

"And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know"
I thought we were one company and you wanted us to 'stick together'? It is naive/ignorant comments like this that breeds resentment/division.
Bloody hell, I haven't written that much since my last 4114 ;)

I meant it out of exasperation from the egll-bashing on this thread; whatever we get or don't get, somebody or somewhere is going to make some b1tchy comment about it - that's what spreads resentment/division. So let's get the WP agreed and then spread the good news throughout the kingdom :ugh:

And again, if we are one company 'sticking together' why the constant digging at egll? If the grass is so much greener, get the heck over here and join us

GT3: of course, nothing but the finest for you :ok:

[Hootin an a roarin]

Hold at Satan

"I meant it out of exasperation from the egll-bashing on this thread; whatever we get or don't get, somebody or somewhere is going to make some b1tchy comment about it - that's what spreads resentment/division. So let's get the WP agreed and then spread the good news throughout the kingdom "

So you get what you want, we get nothing, but if we dare make a comment that spreads resentment/division? Are you so thick skinned and insular?

Also good news for who? Heathrow, whoopee the boys win again (oops, I may spread resentment!)

"And again, if we are one company 'sticking together' why the constant digging at egll? If the grass is so much greener, get the heck over here and join us"

The digging is against the band 5 units, you are in the firing line. So we all apply to Heathrow to earn £80 grand. That justifies your huge pay and benefits then does it? What about the poor minions who cannot apply for personal reasons or the ones who can't be released or can't get in? I agree you should be paid more, don't get me wrong, but couldn't see what was wrong with the old system.

[throw a dyce]

[QUOTE=hold at SATAN;3001825] ''If the grass is so much greener, get the heck over here and join us''.
It's like a stuck record:) .OK then, top of the Band 5 scale,company accomodation,company air tickets every cycle to see the other half who has her own job,company car,no assessments,and the good news compensation for WP or whatever.Deal or no Deal?
It's only the going rate for experience.:cool: No more radar.:ok:

[fly bhoy]

[QUOTE=hold at SATAN;3001825] ''If the grass is so much greener, get the heck over here and join us''.
It's like a stuck record:) .OK then, top of the Band 5 scale,company accomodation,company air tickets every cycle to see the other half who has her own job,company car,no assessments,and the good news compensation for WP or whatever.Deal or no Deal?
It's only the going rate for experience.:cool: No more radar.:ok:

And they say we ask for a lot?!?!?;) :)

FB:ok:

[throw a dyce]

It shows how far top of the scale Band 2 is from Band 5. A 2 pay point rise hardly get you half way down Band 5.The rest is a suggestion to get people in for a few years to get your numbers up.TWR and APP radar controllers who are OJTI do not need assessment.You either validate or don't.I don't think it's out of order but it's NEVER going to happen.It's a good way to help your dwindling staff numbers out with some experience.Plenty companies in the big bad world do it.Who's short of staff?
Mind you my replacement probably hasn't started at the college yet.;)
Ps OK I'll just take the Nats car loan.:cool:

[choclit runway]

And while we're at it we could also get rid of the cars that gatwick controllers use to get to their tower and make them walk a bit further eh?!?

FB:ok:

Maybe they should? Got stuck in one of the f:mad: ckers on the M25 after a TC liaison visit when the arse dropped out off the gearbox in a traffic jam. 5 hours waiting for the company recovery service with nothing to drink other than an dodgy alcohol free beer that a kindly spanish truck driver donated... Then I had to p:mad: ss it out but that's a whole other story... And no I didn't get any overtime for getting home after dark.

Heathrow... I sympathize but where I work traffic delays are on the increase annually and I have to add 15 mins extra to each journey to get to work on time and the security and minibus systems at the airport are a joke. We have to phone the airport everyday and then wait between 5 and 15 mins for it to arrive. Companies fault?... Partly. Lifestyle choice?.. Partly. I don't get extra pay for the time or phone calls but if I get that p"@ssed of with it I will just move to an airport that doesn't have these problems... If I can find one that doesn't have any gripe about any aspect of their day (unlikely)!

It's unfair but everyone has choices... If lifes that sh:mad: te... Leave. And no crap about transfer times out of Lhr please. There are other employers after your skills but my deep suspicion is that no-one will leave over this because your still on a damn good wedge.

Ciao. CR:ok:

[Hootin an a roarin]

Well done chaps. :D

Fine bit of negotiating.

I believe the deal is 10 extra days leave for 2 years. I believe that is 10 days per year. So seeing as you are short staffed and will not be able to take this then you will be selling it back at a rate of £550 per leave day. So 10 1/2 Grand in 2 years.

How differently the 'valued' few are treated by this company. Before everyone starts I am not bitching personally at Heathrow, just at the company and I believe Union who, whilst looking after a minority for a change, are looking after a minority who can shout very loud!

I do not think this will start a precedence for the rest of us as some Heathrow boys stated previously, maybe a precedence for Heathrow negotiations in the future.

I am afraid giving certain units a 'bung' guys is what causes resentment. :rolleyes:

[throw a dyce]

Or get an AVAA on the leave day for £500 per day,because of staff shortages,because you need more leave.:hmm:
Maybe we should do a North sea divers strike.One week out 40% increase.:D

[Gonzo]

I think for the third time.......:ugh:

The offer on the table is that we do get back leave days, but that it because the shifts in the new WP are longer. Shifts, as in the time from when you plug in, to the time at which you can walk out of the VCR.

Are you telling us all that if your next WP added an hour on to every shift, you would not expect anything back? Or would you just say to your management: "No, that's ok folks, I'm quite happy to work for longer for nothing":ugh:

The new, longer shifts, take the hours model over the max hours per month, so we have to have more leave to bring that down again. :ugh:

[callyoushortly]

The new, longer shifts, take the hours model over the max hours per month, so we have to have more leave to bring that down again. :ugh:

But this is exactly where someone (pointing no fingers) is covering up.
If your new model takes you over WP contracted hours and you need to bring it down by getting leave. No problems, fair negotiation for the boys.

The bit I don't understand is as follows...... our union rep states that you're getting 10 days extra leave to compensate for this. Fine, I understand that too.
But why are you only getting the extra leave for 2 years if this is a permanent change and your hours will be permanently over the agreed WP hours?? There's something slightly smelly about all of this......

[Gonzo]

Because it's a staged change over two years, which ends up with an OR for 60, rather than 55 ATCOs, so therefore the hours get back below the max again without leave.

[callyoushortly]

Ahhhh see, it's interesting how the snippets keep coming out! Maybe there wouldn't have been so much LL apathy on the thread if everything was made black and white initially.

Have to say though, if you can't reach an OR of 55 at the moment, how the hell are you going to reach an OR of 60 in 2 years??

[Gonzo]

Ah...the question nodoby can answer!

If you can, please send your answers on a postacrd to GM Heathrow!

[Flybywyre]

Are the assistants getting the same deal ?

[Gonzo]

I believe everyone gets two days to extend their existing WP to March, then I'm not sure. I don't know if the ATSAs and ATCEs have negotiated past that point.

[throw a dyce]

Ah...the question nodoby can answer!
If you can, please send your answers on a postacrd to GM Heathrow!
Post 166 and 168? Perhaps not.Where's my postcards.:rolleyes:
He just lives round the corner anyway.;)

[TheFox]

Just make sure when your new tower opens that BAA dont take any pictures of you, you dont know where they might end up :)

[expediteoff]

C'mon Fellas!!

Don't let this one die out!

How about the fact their heating bills are less in the South, they have their house lights on less, their children don't have to walk to school in the dark!

Keep it going - use your imaginations!!

[25check]

C'mon Fellas!!
Don't let this one die out!
How about the fact their heating bills are less in the South, they have their house lights on less, their children don't have to walk to school in the dark!
Keep it going - use your imaginations!!


I've heard tales that they ritually sacrifice their ATSA's and bite the heads off whippets too.....and don't even mention the sight of them in the rest room in operatic costumes fighting for the chance to be the top prima donna in the Christmas panto;)