A380 X-wind

[J430]

Whether you like the thing or not, there is always something about crosswind landings....... particularly those who do them better than me:{
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9BgwLbPIwI
J:ok:

[Going Boeing]

In an effort to minimise the number of diversions that the A380 will do in commercial service, Airbus want to have the A380 certified for 45 knot crosswind on a 45m (150ft) wide runway. The drift angle and pilot eye position that would result would be amazing. :D

[Shredder6]

Yes, very impressive. Excellent handling display there!:D :D :cool:
Now, lets see him do that a fully loaded 185!:uhoh:

[podbreak]

In an effort to minimise the number of diversions that the A380 will do in commercial service, Airbus want to have the A380 certified for 45 knot crosswind on a 45m (150ft) wide runway. The drift angle and pilot eye position that would result would be amazing. :D

Full doco details it, they demonstrated with 40-50kts x-wind. The angle in this clip is as crabed as it'll look really (same footage) :ok:

[J430]

What is the x-wind limit for the B744 and 743?

I have heard of approaches being done successfully, flown by hand of course, in 45knots..........

J:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

Classic case of not using into-wind aileron on the rotation/liftoff. If he'd lost No 1 then, things would have been really sporting.

[18-Wheeler]

What is the x-wind limit for the B744 and 743?
I have heard of approaches being done successfully, flown by hand of course, in 45knots..........
J:ok:


The Classic is 30kts, I assume the -400 would be the same.

[Fliegenmong]

:rolleyes: Here we go:rolleyes: ........waiting for the " '74 can handle 60kts cross wind, before Airbus even knew what a cross wind was" argument now. :ugh: :ugh:

[B772]

The B777 demonstrated x/w component for take-off and landing in my airline is 38 kts. Guidelines given by Boeing are 45 kts for a dry runway and 40 kts for a wet runway.

[The Messiah]

.....and that is 38kts on one engine manual OR auto landing.:ok:

[B772]

:rolleyes: Here we go:rolleyes: ........waiting for the " '74 can handle 60kts cross wind, before Airbus even knew what a cross wind was" argument now. :ugh: :ugh:

A380 test pilot Claude Lelaie is quoted as saying the A380 took off and landed with 56 kts cross wind in Ireland two weeks ago.

That is some feat amd I consider outside my comfort zone.

[OPSH24]

J430 Whether you like the thing or not, there is always something about crosswind landings....... particularly those who do them better than me
"those who do them better than me" - you must mean - "computers who do it better than me. Funny - my autopilot flies straight and level better than I can as well.

[404 Titan]

OPSH24

The Airbus’s I fly (A330-300, A340-300 & A340-600) have an Auto Land crosswind limit of 20 kts, well below the maximum crosswind limit which must be flown manually. Boeings all have a similar limitation. Oh and please don’t tell me the computers are still flying the aircraft when I flare the aircraft and put a boot full of rudder in to straighten up. If you do, you obviously don’t understand the flight control laws of the airbus FBW aircraft.

[tlf]

OPSH24

The Airbus’s I fly (A330-300, A340-300 & A340-600) have an Auto Land crosswind limit of 20 kts, well below the maximum crosswind limit which must be flown manually. Boeings all have a similar limitation. Oh and please don’t tell me the computers are still flying the aircraft when I flare the aircraft and put a boot full of rudder in to straighten up. If you do, you obviously don’t understand the flight control laws of the airbus FBW aircraft.

They have laws to follow?
I thought they pretty much did whatever they felt like on the day :)

[Contract Con]

404,

When you do get on the rudder to kick it straight, does the FBW maintain the last sidestick commanded Roll attitude i.e wings level, or do you still cross control it with the sidestick to counter the yaw induced roll?


Cheers,

Con:ok:

[404 Titan]

Contract Con

In “Flare Mode” lateral control is supposed to be the same as in “Flight Mode” i.e. “Normal Law” therefore maintains wings level. It rarely can achieve this though particularly in strong crosswind conditions. In these conditions it is best to be flown like any conventional aircraft, cross control in the flare but keep the wings level.

The rudder on the A330-300 (except the enhanced version), and the A340-300 isn’t FBW. It is as convention as the rudder on your B737.

Elevator in “Flare Mode” is in “Direct Law” which simply means that what you input into the side stick is directly reproduced in elevator deflection, just as it is in a conventional aircraft like your B737 except you use a yoke.:ok:

[Contract Con]

404,

Thanks for the info. I knew it did some funny things regarding control law close to the ground.

I'm suprised that the rudder is not FBW on the Big Buses.

Can they contol the rudder following an engine failure with the Auto Flight system engaged? Or is it old school like the Boeing, size 12 until you have it in trim?

Cheers,

Con:ok:

[404 Titan]

Contract Con

I assume you are referring to an engine failure after V1 but before the auto pilot is engaged after take-off. Again the big bus is just like your B737. It requires a good boot full of rudder to maintain directional control and a positive rotation at Vr to about 12 ½ degrees. Once established in the climb at V2 or what ever speed is attained if the engine failure occurs airborne, trim the rudder out and engage the auto pilot. Once engaged the auto pilot can fly the aircraft in is asymmetric state, i.e. maintain directional control and auto trim the rudder. If the engine failure should occur in the cruise the auto pilot can handle the failure. No rudder input is required from the pilot.

The rudder is FBW on the A330-300 (Enhanced) and the A340-600. I would assume it is FBW on the A380 as well. Even with these aircraft having a FBW rudder, they still work in exactly the same fashion as an aircraft with a conventional rudder. I believe though that the A380 like the B777 will have a few tricks up its sleave reference the rudder if an engine should fail during the take-off run.:ok:

[Contract Con]

Thanks 404,

I was referring to a failure whilst the auto pilot is engaged. You answered my question.

The 73 can't control the rudder at anytime. (aside from a little yam damping now and again)

Cheers,
Con

[J430]

I see the big Dugong is back in Oz again.

Any news from down south???

J:ok:

[B772]

I see the big Dugong is back in Oz again.
Any news from down south???
J:ok:

The only news down south I am aware of is a rumour in QF that there is some discussion between engineering and the flight department re the "suitability" of the A380 for QF.

It is safe to assume 'the new owners' of QF will review the A380 order.

It appears most of the A380 customers are reviewing their A380 plans, especially SQ and EK. I understand 2 customers will cancel before 31 Dec and undermine the whole program.

[cunninglinguist]

Standard Airbus procedure bloggsy.
Something to do with the drag from the ailerons and the extra weight put on the wheels of the into wind wing when putting aileron into wind.

[The Messiah]

404 Titan

The Boeings I've flown don't have any different x-wind limitation for an autoland except when predicated on LWMO, maybe that is what you mean.

A 400 still can autoland at the full x-wind limit as can the 777.

[Zeke]

404 Titan
The Boeings I've flown don't have any different x-wind limitation for an autoland except when predicated on LWMO, maybe that is what you mean.
A 400 still can autoland at the full x-wind limit as can the 777.

The way I read the 20 kt limit 404 Titan is talking about, is the same way I read the 25 kt crosswind limit on the 777/744.

[The Messiah]

Which means what? Do you think the 777 can or cannot legally autoland at 38kts? I say it can.

[Zeke]

Which means what? Do you think the 777 can or cannot legally autoland at 38kts? I say it can.

That depends on who you work for, and where you land.

Not the smartest idea, especially if one were to have an incident.

[ACMS]

The 777 was certified by Boeing to autoland up to the limit of 38kts.
And the test crew manually landed it in 58kts Xwind.
The only limits are during LWMO.
This is FACT.

[ACMS]

To quote the 777-300 FCOM 3 ( which is approved by Boeing )
AUTOMATIC LANDING:
The Maximum allowable wind speeds when landing weather minima are predicated on LWMO conditions are:
HEADWIND 25kts
TAILWIND 15kts
CROSSWIND 25kts
note: crosswind limit applicable to actual LWMO on a non-contaminated runway only. Refer to page L10.1 "Aircraft General" for other conditions.
Which states: Maximum crosswind component-Takeoff and Landing
Non-Contaminated runway 38kts.
The mighty trippler can and does autoland up to 38kts.

[Zeke]

ACMS,

I had a look at REV 67 of page L.10.8 of your 777 FCOM 3, it does not reflect what you have quoted.

As I said before, it depends on who you work for, and where you land. Even at the same airport one may have different crosswind limits depending on the runway in use.

FYI, Boeing does not certify anything, I trust you understand that subtle point.

[B772]

ACMS,
I had a look at REV 67 of page L.10.8 of your 777 FCOM 3, it does not reflect what you have quoted.
As I said before, it depends on who you work for, and where you land. Even at the same airport one may have different crosswind limits depending on the runway in use.
FYI, Boeing does not certify anything, I trust you understand that subtle point.

Whilst Boeing may not certify anything the aircraft (B777) is certified in the Transport category. To achieve certification the a/c must be capable of handling 23 kts of x-wind component. For a number of reasons, especially legal ones manufacturers do not specify a max x-wind component for take-off and landing, they do however make reference to demonstrated limits which are less than that achieved by their test pilots.

[ACMS]

dear Zeke
ACMS,
I had a look at REV 67 of page L.10.8 of your 777 FCOM 3, it does not reflect what you have quoted.
We now have digital documents for each aircraft. The last FCOM 3 rev I had was REV 75. Rev 67 came out around July 2004.
I just looked at the Limitations section of FCOM 3 for 2 of our 777's. ( to make sure each was the same ) and there is no page 10.8????????????????
Also the limitations I quoted above are still written the same way in each FCOM 3 I examined. So I have no idea what you are talking about.
If you are in CX then please go to the digital documents page, download a 777 FCOM 3 in HTML or PDF and tell me where the information you refer to is?
As I said before, it depends on who you work for, and where you land. Even at the same airport one may have different crosswind limits depending on the runway in use.
I can't imagine Boeing would need to have different Xwind limits for different operators and on different runways as well?
The Runway is either approved for Autoland or it's not ( each operator may be different in this respect ), If it is then 38kts can be used in the right wx.
FYI, Boeing does not certify anything, I trust you understand that subtle point.
Yes you are correct, the FAA certified the Aircraft, Boeing only built it:bored:
Boeing build a nice shiny aircraft, they then must demonstrate that it can be landed in crosswinds by the average Pilot. In the case of the 777 they chose 38 kts as the demonstrated maximum crosswind limit. This they did so as to gain certification from the relevant authorities.
The FCOMS CX use are checked and approved by Boeing. They are actually Boeing documents we tailor to our needs, under their approval.

[The Messiah]

Hey Zeke

Please give an example for different x-wind limits for different runways at different airports as I have never seen or heard of such a thing but you obviously have.

[ACMS]

ZEKE............... Cat got ya tongue?

[Zeke]

Sorry ACMS,

Been busy last week making sure you get your 13th month and profit sharing this year.

Had another look at your FCOM 3, dates june this year, the page is now L.22. Word for word the same as the older PDF I had. Still does not read as you have posted.

Messiah,

Runway width is the simple answer, not all runways are 60m wide.

[ACMS]

Zeke my ol chum.
Been busy last week making sure you get your 13th month and profit sharing this year.

don't forget I actually fly the 777, so I'm probably one of the busiest boys in the company, and i'm not even close the overtime. So enough of the "making sure you get your 13th month" jibes.
Had another look at your FCOM 3, dates june this year, the page is now L.22. Word for word the same as the older PDF I had. Still does not read as you have posted.
page L22.1 is the one you seem to be referring to, it is indeed the one I quoted from earlier. Mate have you actually read it????????? READ THE NOTE IN BOLD I quoted it verbatum above, I didn't change the wording and copied it down exactly. There is no doubt reading it, ALL 777 Pilot's from the CP down to the JFO's all read it the same way I do. The only limits ( apart from Contaminated runways ) apply to LWMO conditions, otherwise it's 38kts.
Runway width is the simple answer, not all runways are 60m wide.
Maybe a possibility with other airlines but not with CX. Personally I doubt Boeing would have made it that complicated for other operators either. They got their aircraft certified to land in 38kts Xwind on a 45m or 60m Rwy.Ideed we fly into both 45m and 60m Rwys and there is no difference with our Xwind limits for either size.
Are there any 30m Rwy's that a 777 could land on???????????? not sure but it ain't mentioned in our manuals that's for sure.
So good try my Airbus lovin friend. Now back to the Bus for you.

[ACMS]

ZEKE........ In my haste and excitement I did mis quote the FCOM 3 page L10.1
It should have been "Maximum allowable wind speeds when landing minima are predicated on Autoland operations" and not LWMO operations.
However as I said to you in a PM. ( or words similar to this anyway:) )
The only time landing weather minima are predicated on autoland operations is during LWMO
So my wording might have been off a little, but it makes no difference to the story.
cheers.