Nationwide current issues (threads merged)

[Deskjocky]

On IOL this morning:
October 19, 2006

By AUDREY D’ANGELO

Cape Town - Nationwide Airlines expects to carry 9 000 additional American and European passengers a month on its local and regional routes in the coming holiday season as a result of new codeshare arrangements with Air France and US airline Delta.

At present, it runs 60 daily flights carrying 2 100 passengers locally.

It also intended to apply for codeshare air traffic rights for its passengers to be carried by Delta to a number of US destinations, including Cincinnati, Miami, Chicago, Phoenix and Honolulu, financial director Peter Griffiths said yesterday.

And it was negotiating to lease a second Boeing 767-300 Extended Range plane to enable it to increase its frequencies to London (Gatwick) from four a week to daily. Nationwide's London flights all leave from Johannesburg at present, but if it secured the second Boeing 767 in time, Griffiths said it would have one return flight a week from Cape Town during the holiday season.

These planes are in short supply, however, and Nationwide recently failed to secure a second lease.

The matter is urgent because, in addition to a regular seasonal shortage of airline seats on the London route, Nationwide is in danger of losing three of its seven weekly air traffic rights to London if they are still unused by January.


British Airways franchise holder Comair has complained to the South African licensing council that Nationwide has not taken them up.

Griffiths explained that the more easily obtainable Boeing 747 would be too large for its passenger loads, although the airline expected to need them later as its market share grew.

It could not add an Airbus to its fleet because "we are a Boeing airline and have not got the infrastructure for an Airbus".

Nationwide's pilots all fly Boeings and, in addition to that, the airline carries out its own maintenance with staff trained on Boeings.

US airline Delta will start a service between Johannesburg and Atlanta by way of Dakar early in December. Air France flies between Johannesburg and Paris twice a day. Some passengers on Nationwide flights to London already transfer to Delta and Continental Airways flights to the US.

A Nationwide spokesperson said that at present it carried an average of 2 100 passengers a day on its 60 local flights. These included eight return flights a day between Johannesburg and Cape Town, and six return flights between Johannesburg and Durban.


Interesting projections being put forward, just having a code share is no guarantee of getting the business- its all about connectivity and schedule harmonisation and inventory availability among others. To give an example SAA gets more traffic off the one world alliance partners in South Africa than BA/Comair does- this despite the fact that Comair offers FFP benefits and a supposedly better price. On the flip side we provide BA more feed across LHR than we do to our code share partner BMI- for similar reasons.

Think Audrey had better check her facts- 2100 pax across 60 flights- that’s 35 pax a flight! :eek:

Bet you ol uncle Vern is currently scouring Eastern Europe looking for that last great bargain 732…… and on the way back buying up a few extra old busses for the ramp from an out of business ground handler in Bucharest because he got a buy one get one free deal…:E :E

[Ketek400]

Wonder where he will find crew for all this expansion? So many leaving already?

[putt for dough]

If it is true it is good news.
This means more work for all.
If they are battling at the moment with regards to
crew shortage then stand up and ask for more pay.

Who knows maybe VB will have to pay up
if he wants to expand and not have the crewing problems:D

[Shrike200]

Logically yes. Historically speaking, he won't, and it will bite him in the ass. Deservedly so. In any case, we'll see happens.

[Q4NVS]

If you ask me:

Everytime NTW looses alot of Crew, they "dust-off" this old 767 story (+ others). This one has been around for years now, not even months...:eek:

Almost sounds like the continuous harping by a guy who owns quite a few J41's. :oh:

Let's hope, for all the "Wannabe Airline Pilot's" that maybe this time uncle Vern can pull something out of the bag.

:ok:

[Ketek400]

I heard a rumour....more resignations on the cards

[Q4NVS]

Sjoe! :sad:

Think it will be a hard one to swallow for VB if NTW almost comes to a complete grind because Mango took just about all his crew :E

Who will he report to the Competition's Commission then - himself for treating his crew like dirt and now getting the same in return...?:D

Good on you guys :D

[Shrike200]

I heard a rumour....more resignations on the cards

Well, there are always resignations on the cards at Nationwide, so that's not so much news, more a case of 'business as usual' except this time I have a feeling they're really going to feel it!

From what I gather, the common question at Nationwide is 'So when are you leaving?', or 'Are you still with us, or just helping out with some freelance work?'. Or 'So how was the 737-800 conversion course?'

A friendly greeting would be along the lines of 'Hey, you're still here! How's it going! When did you say your Emirates interview was?'

:E

[Ketek400]

The big problem lies in commanders. Previously captains would leave CE and be replaced with senior capable f/o''s, but now even the senior f/o''s are leaving.

[trubru]

Probably a good time to start there then.....:E :E

[stargazer50]

Hi Guys, If u are still with NTW its only because u cant swim, better learn quickly !!!!!! The rumors of 767 +1 and more a/c are created just for u by V.B.and V.B and co, after all, what else is that fake (Proved) still doing there???? After all things said about Vern, he's no fool !!! but window dressing is not forte, so , as it goes, start " swimming" lest u get caught in the down"draft".:=

[Shrike200]

They could get twenty more aircraft, it doesn't matter and everyone knows it.....they just do not have the Captains available to fly the aircraft they have right now. And it's getting worse. If flights aren't already being cancelled, they soon will be, and lots of them. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

[WRX737]

The extra a/c that Vernon are looking for are already painted in the correct colours on mike apron at JIA! Now to organise commanders for them!:)

[SFO]

All NW pilots is looking for ANY other job while her ladyship is in charge!

[Shrike200]

Previously Nationwide have relied on a stagnant job market to hold onto crew. Now, that is no longer quite the case, and naturally the crew scatter to the four corners of the earth at the first opportunity. It's not just the pull factors from outside, it's the innumerable push factors coming from inside. Nationwide is (or *should* be) learning the hard way to take note of current trends. There's decent demand/movement in the industry, creating a slightly more healthy supply and demand situation. They want to hold onto crew, they're going to have to make some serious changes, not just in salaries, but in general attitude all round. They are *seriously* shortstaffed in multiple areas, and it should be clear enough where that can lead....

[stargazer50]

I Dont think V.B. is going to get through this one, (1), and (2), he is going to turn around and blame Mango for his crew drain, 15 flt deck in all !!!! But you are right , the pressure to leave NTW is, i would say, more from the inside than the guys wanting to join a carrer based airline. look at how many pilots have left NTW for the east! As mentioned guys, swim now or be ---- !!!!:ugh:

[Deskjocky]

I for one cannot believe that old Vern is going to just sit back and watch the ship go down- that would be a crying shame as the airline is probably in the best market position of all the local carriers. If the place was intelligently run then I have no doubt that they would punch well above their weight- they have had brief exceptional performances in the past, but I guess we can all agree that this was more fluke than by design.

Their lack of direction as pertains to disintermediation is now going to cost them big time- especially as there has never been a low fare airline( which is what they are) that has ever survived by selling their inventory only through one channel. They had the chances and didn’t grab them….. I think there are some very greatful competitors out there today….:hmm:

[johnnyknoxville]

Check the apron!!!! More than enough Apronwides parking off for Vern's expansion!!!
(They need to cross an FIR to make money Vern!!!!)

[SFO]

- Over 35 pilots has resigned in the last 12 months (when did she join? Another FTC?)
- Roster issued 3 days before for one week and changed by the time printed
- Briefing notice says may not contact roster clerks (when there is any) or disiplinary hearing!!!
- HR letter says do not ask if leave have been granted but never any confirmation
- first officers (one with no more than 200 hours on fluffie) doing simulator training of new pilots
- 30% increase offer to Captains to stay but still they resign. No quality of life. To little to late!

[Q4NVS]

- first officers (one with no more than 200 hours on fluffie) doing simulator training of new pilots

Dearly hope this one ain't true...:eek: :\ :eek:

[WildFrequency]

yip, thats almost true. The person concerned may possible become a pilot-instructor at NTW. He was in the sim this past week with new recruits, I guess still under guidance? There is a great irony in this "pilots" actual job at NTW, he is not a fulltime first officer, but an office bearer...better not say anymore though. Check the Designation Examiner list, maybe you will recognise the name.

[Deskjocky]

Who??? Surely not L***** 4-bar:eek: :confused: :eek:

err...from what Ive heard, yes. although I was informed that the office portion was on top of the flying not the otherway round...typical Vern- gets 2 jobs out of one poor sod- no extra cash. Then again he could have always said no...:hmm:

[SIC]

L *****4bar classic!
Since he pitched up for his initial NTW interview last year wearing those 4 bars I am not surprised that it has become his nickname!

Guess we'll be calling him Capt 4bar when he gets his inevitable upgrade - despite all the hooha about seniority and time on type and other BS they were going on not long ago.:D :yuk:

[Deskjocky]

Her ladyship strikes again:}

[FMC forever]

- CREW fly their *** off because management are not doing their job and looking after their employees. They are pushed to max duty times and if they get to max FDP times and advise rosters to get out standby crew, their old saying is that there are no crew and captain can extend time with 3 hours.:eek:

- Rosters changes on daily basis and off days are taken away. No proper off days anymore and crew are even phoned on off days to help out.:=

- Rosters changes sign on times and duty times to fit into the legal scope.:mad:

- Big joke - Salary increases - only R10 per SNT day and R35.00 per sector allowance for co and R80.00 per sector allowance for captains.

- Jump seat policy implemented - 5 days notice to be given for approval - seems the rules are getting more and more.

- VB main problem - get rid of her.:ugh:

- New guys wanting to join Nationwide - think twice :yuk:

[FuelFlow]

It seems nothing has changed in the Seven years since I left. Keep sending out your C.V`s chaps. GOOD LUCK!!!

[Champagne Lover]

Guys and girls. We are going to have to very assertively get our act together, that is for our sakes, AND for the sakes of the NEW LOW-TIME joining pilots!!!!!!
Remember, the demons who abuse us, simply because we love what we do, RELY on us cutting each others throats to "Get that job"!!!
If we can demonstrate, that the prospective airline pilot stands to gain HUGELY by playing ball too, then we have a good start!
The powers that rule, FULLY realise, that If I refuse to succumb to the "BIG STICK", then I can be immediately be replaced with a "WANNABE" !! His 'Inexperience', means Jack:mad: to the boss!! A trifle higher insurance premium yes,maybe......but a MUCH cheaper pilot! WOW, now I can really make big bucks!! I don't have to pay the pilots!
If we DO collectively start and set up a prevailing adherance to: "NO, I will NOT sign ANY bond!" YOU, want to make MONEY from this "Business", pilots are expensive!! It's part of your costs!!!!!!!!
"NO, I will NOT accept that as my basic wage, pay that to your junior clerks or lawyers or any other who will accept it."
Changing aeroplane type? Sign ANOTHER BOND????????????? Forget it!!!!!!!!
YOU need the aeroplane to fly, TRAIN me!!!!!
I will very likely have to change aeroplanes shortly to get command. Bond?? Forget it!! I rather stay where I am and resign and go sell/pack fish! NO more big stick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You want to bully people, go get a little 10 year old whipping boy!
If we can convince the prospective recruit, to NOT accept this post now, he is busy sabotaging HIS/HER future carreer by doing so, then we are getting there, slowly. We need a system where he or she can access and see what is happening in a given company. If I apply for this position now, they don't HAVE to train the pilot who is currently employed there, who SHOULD be undergoing training for that post.
I remember well, the briefings from the Airline Pilots Associations -WORLDWIDE, advising all pilots with honour, to not apply at a given airline because the said company was busy screwing blood out of the pilots. It CAN work!
Lets start making a ball, and get it to bloody move, albeit uphill!!!!

[UpperSideBand]

For all the people who've been screwed salary-wise, there is some glimmer of hope. Rumour has it that SAA will be recruiting 40 new pilots in the first 6 months of next year. Companies like Nationwide who don't pay their crews market related salaries, will be the first to start losing pilots. Maybe then they'll realise that a a/c can't fly without pilots. Nationwide, if you're reading this, tell me what's more expensive, paying crew what their worth, or grounded aircraft? The crew that do pick-up the slack when the other okes have left, good on you for being such a loyal employee, but you're just shooting yourself in the foot...

I always say: If you want loyalty, get a dog. I work for cash.

[Q4NVS]

Unfortunately, rumour also has it that most of these 40 positions will be smacked into the laps of SAA Cadets currently flying at SAX and Link, as well as all Females they can get their hands on...

Most SAA Cadets eligible to join the Mainline Carrier have over the past three weeks completed their Sim Checks as well as "Screening" Interviews i.e. All they now need, is a starting date.

Wrt to the NTW situation:

CLover, I think that in a perfect world your suggestion would work, but hey, the world aint perfect and nor are the humans that populate it.

It is fact that the guys/girls at NTW have a RAW deal, but so do most guys/girls in General Aviation.

Have you ever flown a Charter for a reputable company, only to wait 3+ months before you get paid a minimum fee (after Tax), that is if they pay you at all...? Or, have to fly for an operator that insists on paying you less than a Waiter earns in 3 hours, because you need the hours..:ugh:

My point is, that for these people, unfortunately the conditions at NTW will still be an improvement on what they are used to - therefore the continuous supply of newbies.

The only real solution here is for the guys/girls at NTW to get their ducks in a row and stand TOGETHER. Uncle Vern will always pay them what he can "afford", as it is his business and his pocket money - Unless when paying the crew what he can afford becomes a lesser evil when compared to the dough he is losing because of not paying them what they are worth.

It relates to the old adage:
How do you eat an Elephant - Bite by Bite.

Put a plan together and start chipping away...:suspect:

Good Luck!

:ok:

[PissCat]

... AND THEN SOME!
Rumours have it that crew had to fly to Cpt, drive to GRJ to operate back and all this could've been avoided if there was any communication at ops on Fri since lunch time! What next? If their 767 goes technical in LGW would they have to fly them to Egypt, give them car rental and make them drive to London? What a joke!

The problem with the salary "increases" started by making a big hoo ha about this incredible increase that the flight crew will be receiving instead of keeping quiet with a nice little R10 increase surprise.:E
I can't wait to fly for an Airline, coz flying for the circus doesn't cut it anymore.:}

[Alternative]

If Mainline hires Cadets.....Will spaces at feeders be available to newbies or are their more cadets on the way to fill those spaces up!!!!

[Morphieus]

If employees at NTW want their working conditions and pay to change then it is up to them to do something about it. Not the ones about to be employed. You will never have anyone in general aviation turning down an airline job in the hope that their singular action will hopefully have an effect on the working conditions of the ones already employed there, or even their own conditions in the future. It just won’t happen. Why? Well most incoming crew offered a job in the airlines have been working contracts in African s*#t holes for the last couple of years and all they want is a stable job/income back at home with their families. The fact that it’s on a 737 with good hours doesn't hurt either.Dealing with the problems at NTW is definitely a lot better than dealing with african ATC and general incompetence on a daily basis. Never mind the fact that you live away from home for 2 months at a time and basically giving up your whole life! I would personally take NTW's issues any day over contract flying. Even for a lower pay. At least you home every night with the wife.The fact is that’s why there’s such a thing as labour law. The right for employees to form unions and strike if necessary. That’s not something that most pilots want to do but if the working conditions are really not acceptable then that’s what needs to be done. It’s the only real bargaining power that employees have and it’s also protected by the law. Pilots in NTW need to stick together and make change happen, preferably without sinking the airline in the process! I’m not advocating that every time there is a little grievance everybody must now stop working, just that NTW’s problems can only be solved internally with people sticking to their guns.

[Shrike200]

Nationwide's employees are sticking together actually, but many here are missing some of the undercurrents:

Yes, contract pilots could be happy to come and work for Nationwide. It still however, takes two to three months or so to train an F/O, and with Nationwide's 'last minute, reactive-style' planning, even that can be a problem. -500 F/O's are also working their butts off. But this isn't the big issue.

It's Captains, or the critical lack thereof. And they don't grow on trees. You can't just recruit a direct entry Captain from somewhere on contract. You see, Captains at Nwide come in two flavours: The retired skygod flavour, and the 'original' Nwide Captain variant, who moved up through the ranks. Now, both varieties can only tolerate so much BS, which Nwide is now dishing out in spades. The skygods won't put up with it, because they don't need to stomach this rubbish, and the 'originals' who have already had to swallow years of abuse and are now gatvol, can now move on because of the movement in the job market.

Neither group will do much in the way of serious complaining or union action - they'll simply vote with their feet, which is precisely what's happening. They'll just pack up and go.

The HR people can wring their hands and make useless gestures ('climate survey' - whatever! If you can't see what they problems are, you must be blind!) to try and get them to stay, but they'll have had enough by now. Serious, genuine, and IMMEDIATE effort would be required to persuade them to stay now. The puny salary gesture isn't nearly enough. They will still be paying at the absolute bottom end of the local industry. More will be leaving shortly. The 'old hands' at Nationwide have seen all these promises before anyway. They know management won't remove their heads from their sphincters. And therefore they are going, and will continue to do so without too much shouting. Why attempt to change the unchangeable when you can just leave?

And therefore, this isn't just a case of pilots not sticking together etc etc. It's a problem that's been long in the making caused by a management culture at Nationwide, and is now coming to the fore because of the possibilities for moving on in the local/overseas job market. The newer pilots at Nationwide have the opportunity to try and lever some changes in there. But they're going to need an APFSDS round to try and penetrate some of the thick skulls on high there.

[putt for dough]

Guys you are the masters of your own destinies!!:ugh:
Get your heads out of the sand and start sticking up
for eachother.
From what I've been reading, when is enough, enough?:confused:

You are the masters of your own destinies........

When will you all stop this bull??

[Shrike200]

Perhaps I should rephrase what I said above, maybe I could be clearer. Nobody is shafting anybody else amongst the crew. I believe people are sticking up for one another, or at least trying to in difficult circumstances. It's the crew that makes the place at the moment, despite management's best efforts (to divide and conquer). On the union front, they're still finding their legs, and are working along the lines of trying to convince the company that the union is a good thing, something that allows crew and management to come to mutually acceptable solutions, rather than what many here seem to advocate - an outright headbutt fest. Saying 'you guys should stick together, and stick it to them!' just displays ignorance. It's easy to say when it's not your job and livelihood on the line, and also easy to say when you've stepped into a company that already has a strong union with plenty of support and an established rapport with management, and merely tagged along with everybody else. Try setting all that up yourself in a hostile environment, whilst holding everybody together - or perhaps maybe you have, and can offer some advice thats actually useful, other than 'Stuff them'?

[hla727]

To all at NTW, I take my hat off to you!
I have worked here (NTW) for 5 years + and I haven't seen such chaos in all my time here.

I don't know how you guys do it on the 737's.......

The roster issue is appaulling, I don't know how it got to this ........

I believe there are going to be more resignations and then it will probably be getting worse (if that is possible).

I think the situation now will tend to "make" or "brake" the airline.......so lets hope for our sakes, it "makes" NTW.

Lets hope management has a "big" plan and things get better!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PissCat]

"You see, Captains at Nwide come in two flavours: The retired skygod flavour, and the 'original' Nwide Captain variant, who moved up through the ranks. Now, both varieties can only tolerate so much BS, which Nwide is now dishing out in spades" :D

Well said! Enough is enough! Even so VB has upped the requirements to the point where you need a space shuttle rating to get command even if you've been there for yonks. The only way to get command is to either be an ex Skygod or L4Bar.Besides, Morpheus, we can only move on to another airline and really reap the benefits of it once the BOND is settled.That's a thread on it's own let me assure you! By all means, leave your contract flying to come clock hrs on a real jet & be at home with the wife every night? My A$$! you don't even have a roster for the next day. can't plan anything not even a day in advance. FYI, we do stick together, but one can only bump heads with the powers that be so many times before you want to give up and go fly for a fruit salad!:yuk:

[Shrike200]

Ding, Dong, the witch is dead! :D :D

[Anti-Skid Inop]

The infamous LADY has fallen from her perch. After driving Nationwide into the ground she has eventually been eradicated. It might however just be too late, all her damage has already been done!!!

One thing is for sure, she has left a huge amount of work for the next Director of Flight Ops.

[south coast]

Anit-skid, what did she do that has been so bad.

I am no longer in SA, but am interested to hear the story.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

South Coast,

Have a look a little further down at the Nationwide crew shortages and salary increase thread. That is all thanks to the Lady. Admittedly Mr VB has an effect on it as well but the majority of the problems were caused by her. If you do a search, there was a thread on her some time back as well.

Hope that helps.

[Q4NVS]

Are you sure that she was not just the big "Oom's" foot soldier or gunner...:bored:

Do you think Uncle Vern will now suddenly start paying Market Related salaries as well as treating his Crew like Professionals?

I kinda doubt it, but do agree (by the sounds of it), ANY change at NTW is an Improvement! :D

Good Luck!

:E

[Woof etc]

Her ladyship must have quite an interesting CV by now:

FTC, Global Flight Training, Nationwide....oh yeah, the first two are out of business - do I spot a trend?

I suppose theres always that BA command to fall back on - :hmm: .

[WildFrequency]

Got a text message late last night, Her Ladyship was fired, on the 22nd Nov, and escorted off company premises....wish I had been around...I don't usually celebrate anyone's departure:D :D

[JetPark]

Last post makes for interesting reading. Kind of ties in with Deskjocky's post on 6th November and with which I fully agree.

[777SandMan]

The only guys smiling are the external instructors at BA/Comair - making a packet with training the new crew for Vernie! It is also high time that someone spaeks out against the retired SAA drivers taking up space of new and younger hires. Come on "old :mad: ", start spending your SAA millions and retire to Knysna! I hear that Lido flight plans the B767 around France so that the the SAA retirees can crew it!:suspect:

[Shrike200]

The SAA retirees have had it up to here with the Nwide chaos, so it's not like they're hanging around anyway. Believe it or not, most of them are aware of the situation and sometimes openly wonder why the company doesn't tell the to go, and upgrade the full-time Nwide F/O's. The science-fiction ops manual that requires 100000 hrs on the Starship Enterprise before an F/O can be upgraded is also a problem...

The next issue is the idea of getting contract Captains in to 'tide the company over'. South Americans? Something like that....whoever they are, it's a far greater issue than ex SAA people, who can at least speak english! Maybe I caught the wrong end of that rumour though, it really is just a rumour right now...

[four engine jock]

I always thought she was a good ops managers (TUFF!!) You have to be in that position.
Just that some crewS are like babies!!! well most of them.

ALWAYS WANT MORE AND MORE, NEVER HAPPY!!!!

Maybe those expats will show some of them how to fly!!!

Well enough said!!

Good luck Mrs VB.

[putt for dough]

I always thought she was a good ops managers (TUFF!!) You have to be in that position.
Just that some crewS are like babies!!! well most of them.
ALWAYS WANT MORE AND MORE, NEVER HAPPY!!!!
Maybe those expats will show some of them how to fly!!!
Well enough said!!
Good luck Mrs VB.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Is that four engine knob or knobbie :oh: :oh:

jeez i dunno, some okes are just arse creepers
and as long as they are around they bring our good pilot names down!!

four engine doos go play in the traffic and rather tackle maintenance
you wally!!

I mean really:* :* :* :*

Ps: I am in no way affiliated to CE.

[Shrike200]

I always thought she was a good ops managers (TUFF!!) You have to be in that position.
Just that some crewS are like babies!!! well most of them.
ALWAYS WANT MORE AND MORE, NEVER HAPPY!!!!
Maybe those expats will show some of them how to fly!!!
Well enough said!!
Good luck Mrs VB.

Good troll, but I'll only give you an eight out of ten. ;)

[PissCat]

I always thought she was a good ops managers (TUFF!!) You have to be in that position.
Just that some crewS are like babies!!! well most of them.

ALWAYS WANT MORE AND MORE, NEVER HAPPY!!!!

Maybe those expats will show some of them how to fly!!!

Well enough said!!

Good luck Mrs VB.

Wake up and smell the jet fuel!! To be a Good Ops Manager for one, you'd have to be able to MANAGE... and by that I mean manage more than just running a company into the ground good and solid. Granted, she was good at that! not many people I know of that can MANAGE that single handedly! By all means YOU have her..... Her Lady????ship is all yours my friend. and no, Boet.... it's not CrewS d:mad:m:mad: :mad:ss! You can give her a job, she's gonna need it and besides with her Extensive CV she'll be an ENORMOUS ASSett to your company! :E

And for the expats showing some of them how to fly? Yes! Yes !Yes... Learn from their mistakes!

Ignorance is Bliss and you are in one helluva BLISSFULL Bubble!

Good Luck and good Riddance!

[PissCat]

Good troll, but I'll only give you an eight out of ten. ;)



:D :D :D :D :D

[Whenwe]

Rumour has it that she has applied to SACAA for a job....... Oh dear and she was there before in a very senior position too!

This could be an interesting one. :(

[Deskjocky]

The next issue is the idea of getting contract Captains in to 'tide the company over'. South Americans? Something like that....whoever they are, it's a far greater issue than ex SAA people, who can at least speak english! Maybe I caught the wrong end of that rumour though, it really is just a rumour right now...

Old Uncle Vern can get who he likes to “tide them over” a couple of points bear mention:

1 –Foreigners, whoever they are, are going get paid in USD- lots of them. There are so many jobs for contract Captains in places like India and China etc that he is competing on a world stage- paying them is going to burn his arse, take it as a given that he will screw them at the first opportunity- we all know what happens next.
2- Lets say he does con a few unsuspecting South Americans/ Russians/Slovaks to our shores, he still needs to organise them work permits. Anyone tried this recently? One of the key criteria is that you must prove that the skills these folk bring in does not exist in South Africa:hmm:
3- Then there is our dear CAA, for their licence validation…….perhaps he gets it lucky and gets all the paperwork in before the honourable Lady B takes up residence….:}

My question is will he learn his lesson before its too late?

[nugpot]

The science-fiction ops manual that requires 100000 hrs on the Starship Enterprise before an F/O can be upgraded is also a problem...

Can someone enlighten us to the command requirements. Are they that much different from the other established SA operators?

[SFO]

FOUR ENGINE JOCK are you one of the SKYGODS that has helped her to destroy the company? You sounds like one of them!!! Sorrrry 4 u. :{ :{ :{

[Shrike200]

Can someone enlighten us to the command requirements. Are they that much different from the other established SA operators?

I will double check, and maybe they are comparable to other operators in SA (but please bear in mind that other operators actually pay their F/O's enough to sometimes want to actually stay on long enough to become a Captain).

Anyway, last I looked (and it varies depending on which V.B. edited version of the ops manual you find floating around, perhaps I should just go to the CAA and check the approved version) it was 4800 hours on a multi-crew, multi-engined aircraft above 12.5 tones (sic. Yes, they really said/spelt it just like that), as well as something like 5500 hours total time. I could be totally wrong of course, which is often the case. The total time is perhaps doable, but the weight issue isn't really - you'd have to be an F/O at Nwide for 5 years to become eligible, assuming you hadn't flown an aircraft above 12.5 'tones' beforehand - and staying an F/O at Nwide for that long isn't really a financially viable option. They may change the tune now though.

[four engine jock]

Never bite the hands that feeds you!!! Thats what I say.
But at NW there are to many flight crew spending most of there time crying for more money.


ASK NOT WHAT YOUR NW CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR NW!!!

Mr VB has been in the Airline Business a long time. And he will still be in Business long time after all the cry babies are gone.

Be carefull guys its hard out there in dark africa.
The grass always looks greener on the other side but its not.

keep the blue sky up!!!!
OVER AND OUT!

[contraxdog]

4 E J,
Do you know how sad you sound? Don't confuse loyalty with stupidity.
Fact:
If you want loyalty get a dog.
If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
An army fight much better on a full stomach - Napoleon.

The sad reality is that the one of the basis principles of true capitalism states that I sell the best of my ability for the best of your money.

If you are content to be taken advantage of, it means one of a couple of things.

1. The ability(services) that you have to offer are substandard, or you are of the impression that it is.

or

2. The prices you are prepared to accept for your services are subsidized, ie be that a fat Spoories pension, or that it affords you a lifestyle that you crave.(like being at home every night) Then admit it! Don't confuse it with loyalty though, that is communism.

or

3. That you are a masochist. You just love getting shafted for "small dolla"

ASK NOT WHAT YOUR NW CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR NW!!!

That is a quote that is only valid in the context where there is something you can be proud of. Being taken advantage of is not. If you feel that there is, I refer you to the 3 points I mentioned above.

Being proud of being "a Company Man" is the same as being proud of getting an affirmative action job. You didn't get it because you were good, you got it because you are "cheap an nhasty!"

So take your pick.

[Shrike200]

I still think 4 E J is trolling. Nobody can be so dumb as to post that kind of unjustifiable and illogical rubbish in public intentionally.

[Deskjocky]

Never bite the hands that feeds you!!! Thats what I say.
But at NW there are to many flight crew spending most of there time crying for more money.


Your loyalty is admirable, if you are prepared to subjugate your -and more importantly your family’s- financial future so that ol Uncle Vern can buy a new racing Porsche then good for you!

Something that is coming clearly out in this forum over the last few weeks is that there is a lot of crew getting shafted by certain local airlines- this is all good and well when the labour market is stagnant but right now its not and these carriers are going to pay a dear price for their behaviour. My guess is that there will probably be between 60 and 80 jet positions becoming available next year in the local market- there is no doubt in my mind where these candidates will come from.

The lesson to be learnt is as an employer, flight deck loyalty will come from 3 things:
1-Fair market related remuneration with full benefits like pension and medical aid.
2-An organised operational infrastructure where rostering is predicable and transparent. Flight and Duty limits are respected and planned for. Days off are exactly that.
3-Clearly defined career pathing where seniority coupled to ability will dictate who gets promoted. Keep nepotism out at all costs.

Im sure there is more but if you have the above in place then I doubt you are going to have much turn over in your ranks which in turn is going to drive costs down.

[Shrike200]

I give in to the temptation! Here's my original response, shooting from the hip:

Never bite the hands that feeds you!!! Thats what I say.
But at NW there are to many flight crew spending most of there time crying for more money.
ASK NOT WHAT YOUR NW CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR NW!!!
Mr VB has been in the Airline Business a long time. And he will still be in Business long time after all the cry babies are gone.
Be carefull guys its hard out there in dark africa.
The grass always looks greener on the other side but its not.
keep the blue sky up!!!!
OVER AND OUT!
Oh, you were being serious! I'll bite! In cases like this, I would normally ask "Whats the atmosphere like - UP YOUR OWN ASS?!", but last time I got banned for that, so I won't ask you that! ;) (Yes 4HP, my inbuilt EGPWS is saying 'Caution - Terrain ahead!')
Amazingly enough, almost every single one of your sentences is out of touch with reality, ie just plain wrong. I'm giving you credit for the "Be carefull guys its hard out there in dark africa" (sic), since I do agree with that one (been there for several years).
Let me explain:
Never bite the hands that feeds you!!! Thats what I say.
So do a lot of people, myself included. Thats why nobodies biting anybody (unless you count the crew being bitten in the ass by Nwide).
But at NW there are to many flight crew spending most of there time crying for more money.
Actually, they're too busy flying to the absolute legal limit. Let me try and explain things another way: If you got told by your company that you would be doing the same job as now, just for 1/3 of the salary, would you complain? If yes, you must be some kind of whiner (by your logic)! If no, you must be some kind of loser (my opinion).
ASK NOT WHAT YOUR NW CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR NW!!!
As I said, flying to the absolute legal limit, accepting work on non-required (but scheduled) off days at the last moment despite whatever plans they may have had, trying to work with rostering/HR induced chaos come what may, etc. All at well below an industry average salary. And they still manage to smile! If that's not enough for you, you must be an aviation manager. And I mean that in the worst possible way. ;) To add: Yes, I know thats not like contract work. I've done that. But nobody wants to live their lives like that, and it's also just not comparable to the alternatives out there in the local industry.
Mr VB has been in the Airline Business a long time. And he will still be in Business long time after all the cry babies are gone.
10 years or so is hardly a long time. And there are plenty of airlines a lot older that have folded or are experiencing harsh financial times. Allowing your aircraft to be grounded over the holiday season by a crew shortage can only be layed at the feet of management I'm afraid. Or having to hire contract crewmembers at crippling international rates instead of just paying your own guys a decent salary, etc etc.
The grass always looks greener on the other side but its not.
keep the blue sky up!!!!
Actually, the grass IS greener on the other side in this case, as reported by many of the crew who've left, and are busy leaving.
Ok, ok, I'll give you half a point for the bit about the blue sky! That's 1.5 out of 7, well done! :D :D :D

[nugpot]

you'd have to be an F/O at Nwide for 5 years to become eligible, assuming you hadn't flown an aircraft above 12.5 'tones' beforehand - and staying an F/O at Nwide for that long isn't really a financially viable option.

I was an FO at SAX for 5 years before I became a turboprop captain. Some things take time and effort. And I had been a professional pilot for 16 years when I joined SAX.

I don't want to belittle your attempts to get paid a proper salary, but the old style Nationwide where you could get command at 3000 hrs and still in your twenties are past. BTW, you now have an ALPA branch, so use the information and expertise available in ALPA to better your cause.

[four engine jock]

Fight for what you want and stick to your GUNS!!!
Maybe there will be a UNION that will give all South African PILOTS what they deserve!!! Cause they are some of the best in the world ,as far as Iam concerned.
It works in Europe and in the USA!!
An FO with little hours flying for DHL (USA) takes home over $85.000.00
and cost of living is almost the same as South Africa.
Salaries in South Africa are way below what they should be (and with that i have to agree.)

Maybe the Big boys will learn some day.

Just a thought guys!!!

FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hope that you guys are not to upset.

KEEP THE BLUE SKY UP!!!

OVER AND OUT!!!!

[contraxdog]

4EJ,
Just as I suspected you are a communist.
I dont know if you noticed, but communism didn't work. Capitalism did, or should I say is still working.
You know, it might be news to you but your union, did do a lot to create the situation GA is in at the moment. a Union thats fed and maintained by those that don't really need it. a Union that help to create the situation where the rich, retired, are used to create a situation where employee abuse is condoned, advancement is stunted, and the acceptance of a subsidized income is given as the norm. A union that protects the wealthy and allow them to take away from the less privileged.

Lets call a spade a spade.

Your union, has never raised an eyebrow to any currently employed airline employees, that offer his services in the GA market, or does it?
In fact all the currently airline employed, pilots that I had to fly with the last year in GA were infact all members of "The UNION"

Your union has never spoken up against very rich bored retired ex 747 captains, supplementing their massive pensions by working as Captains for Nationwide, Mango etc. upon reaching retirement age or have they.

Due to this practice and the lack of advancement Nationwide FO's are moonlighting to make ends meet.(just look at he requirements for P1 at Nationwide. It was written to fit one of the fossils!, Maybe by one of them as well)

Your union has made sure that the average pilot age in SA is much (or should I say very much) older than that in Europe and the US.

Look at he salary differences between the the National Carrier and the "other" Airlines. From the salary structures of the respective companies one could surmise that the National Carrier is the highest profit earner, by far. But low and behold, one could not be further from the truth. They have the strongest union though!

Supply and demand, will ultimately determine whether Nationwide will survive, whether 1 Time will start canceling flights due to crew shortages, or whether Mango will become fruit juice, not by having a strong union or not.

I will state here that if the National Carrier were to be subjected to normal market forces, unless "the union" can convince their members to take a 50% pay cut today, it wont see Xmas.

Market forces are already determining that GA companies are already moving their salary structures to a point where it will be a hard choice to leave, to join Nationwide, Safair, or 1Time. Unless it is subsidized, or done for the lifestyle. The next step is that those will have to all, up their respective salaries and better their employment practices to recruit crews, and prevent current crews leaving to GA!

None of this will be done by a union.

Wake up this is 2006. Not 1921.

And my friend, turning your sails to the wind is not an admirable trait. It shows a lack of character.

[Shrike200]

I was an FO at SAX for 5 years before I became a turboprop captain. Some things take time and effort. And I had been a professional pilot for 16 years when I joined SAX.
I don't want to belittle your attempts to get paid a proper salary, but the old style Nationwide where you could get command at 3000 hrs and still in your twenties are past. BTW, you now have an ALPA branch, so use the information and expertise available in ALPA to better your cause.

Nugpot, I completely agree with you. They're just struggling with the transition from one style of doing things (low pay, high turnover, and rapid command which results in a useable salary) to another (more career orientated, longer term prospects).

The problem is they've introduced the slower system without any career benefits. Therefore, they are struggling now with the usual (or worse) crew turnover problem, exacerbated by the ok job market. They should have introduced at least an attempt at some career type benefits (ie a pension for example) when they saw this coming (which they would have had to be blind to miss). Thats the problem IHMO, or at least a decent part thereof.

Hence the complaining - Nationwide could be a decent career airline, with just a bit more effort. The problem is that getting that effort from them is like pulling teeth. The old attitude is entrenched in management circles. Still, I believe that the job situation, combined with union efforts should be of benefit to the crew.

[nugpot]

Nugpot, I completely agree with you. They're just struggling with the transition from one style of doing things (low pay, high turnover, and rapid command which results in a useable salary) to another (more career orientated, longer term prospects).
The problem is they've introduced the slower system without any career benefits. Therefore, they are struggling now with the usual (or worse) crew turnover problem, exacerbated by the ok job market. They should have introduced at least an attempt at some career type benefits (ie a pension for example) when they saw this coming (which they would have had to be blind to miss).

Your points are very valid, and I must admit my dealings with Mr VB ended after the BAC1-11 groundschool, but before employment, so I am in the dark about the situation there.

SAX also had a high FO turnover, but that has changed with the employment policies of the national carrier. This caused a rethink about FO scales in 2004. Now the SFO's can afford to wait for command, although nobody wants to wait too long ;) .

SAX has become a career airline for many and hopefully NTW can do the same. - or you can put in a CV at SAX.:E

[Deskjocky]

. Now the SFO's can afford to wait for command, although nobody wants to wait too long ;) .
SAX has become a career airline for many and hopefully NTW can do the same. - or you can put in a CV at SAX.:E

The best kept secret in terms of aviation employment- was there for year and loved every moment of it! after some days in this place I wish I was back there:)

[FMC forever]

How wonderful to know that the Nationwide guys received next weeks roster only now, a roster as from Monday to Friday. Do the roster clerks really know what is going on and what they are doing to all the crew. The crew are getting more fed up every day - result - to leave Nationwide to go to other airlines.

Christmas is around the corner and the crew have to tell their family they do not know where they will be Christmas and New Year. :confused:

Still want to fly for Nationwide???????? :ugh:

[Q4NVS]

...The crew are getting more fed up every day - result - to leave Nationwide to go to other airlines.

By the sound of things, I think it should read: ".. to go to an AIRLINE..." not a 737 Charter company.

A very bad situation and I personally feel for the NTW guys/gals who I am sure do not deserve it...:ugh:

[Flyat450]

Direct from the horses mouth. I flew for Ntw for some time. It is a company with incredible potensial, or shall I say it was a company with incredible potensial.
I must however stress that when any family member of mine travel, I damm well make sure it is not with Ntw. I honestly believe that it's not a question anymore of IF they have an accident, but rather WHEN. From defers which are repeated again and again, to way below standard instructors rushing to get way below standard F/o's on line, to crew flying way out of flight and duty times.
I'm absolutely surprised that Ntw is still in business. I blame the CAA for this mess. They are supposed to protect the public!!!!! Mean time, inspection after inspection, they turn a blind eye to all the issues, allowing passengers lives to be put at risk for another year.
I can only pray that somebody at the SACAA will read this, and make work of it, before we have another National Geographic movie to watch.
(This all said, I do think that they now have a fighting chance since Victoria Buxton have been fired):D

[Shrike200]

Direct from the horses mouth. I flew for Ntw for some time. It is a company with incredible potensial, or shall I say it was a company with incredible potensial.
I must however stress that when any family member of mine travel, I damm well make sure it is not with Ntw. I honestly believe that it's not a question anymore of IF they have an accident, but rather WHEN. From defers which are repeated again and again, to way below standard instructors rushing to get way below standard F/o's on line, to crew flying way out of flight and duty times.
I'm absolutely surprised that Ntw is still in business. I blame the CAA for this mess. They are supposed to protect the public!!!!! Mean time, inspection after inspection, they turn a blind eye to all the issues, allowing passengers lives to be put at risk for another year.
I can only pray that somebody at the SACAA will read this, and make work of it, before we have another National Geographic movie to watch.
(This all said, I do think that they now have a fighting chance since Victoria Buxton have been fired):D

I don't think it's quite like that anymore, and I feel I must make a defence:

- Most (if not all) training is done by Comair nowdays - I think we can agree they set high standards. Sim recurrencies/OPC's are done correctly and on time. Experienced SAA Captains do a lot of the other checks (line etc), and run the training dept.

- Most (again, if not all) new hire F/O's are at least fairly experienced compared to the 800 hr pay as you go F/O's of yesteryear, normally about 1500 hrs + ATP (normally higher experience levels), and seem to be of a good, professional standard.

- Said Captains do their level best to not get shafted, and guard against the type of defects you mention as best they can. Nobody wants to lose their licence to a Nationwide screw up, and nobody likes to see a snag passed around the aircraft. With the recent IATA audit (passed), plus some CAA audits, it's ever present in the crews minds that somebody could check them out at any stage, on any flight, or about any paperwork.

- Crew are also quite aggressive (literally) nowdays about not flying out of FDP, since the rosters became so chaotic.

- VB doesn't prowl the ramp anymore and jump on people who don't want to depart. The culture nowdays is very much 'I won't go if I feel things are unacceptable', perhaps in part due to an aggressive backlash against the old (female VB) powers that were, as well as having quite a few ex-SAA Captains flying for the company. But quite frankly, the older Nwide Captains are just as (often more) cautious.

That said, there is still quite a bit of chaos, and always room for improvement. As I said, I don't think it's as bad as you made out though, there has definately been marked advances in almost all the aspects you mentioned. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but it sounds like the facts have changed since you were there. I do agree that Nationwide is a company with great potential, which I believe it still has.

Thanks.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

I must agree with you Shrike.

What you have posted is the way it is now. With the new manager of Flight Operations things have already started to change for the better! Being a pilot himself (well qualified, unlike the last one), he knows what is good for the pilots as well as the company.

Hopefully it's not too late for him to plug all the holes left by the previous regime!!

I personally think things will get a heck of a lot better in the future.

[Whenwe]

Gosh, that did not take VB long to replace the Lady ..... almost if it were planned that way.

Is it an internal appointment?

Does any one know if she got into CAA? I know they had interviews last month.

[SFO]

Gosh, that did not take VB long to replace the Lady ..... almost if it were planned that way.
Is it an internal appointment?
Does any one know if she got into CAA? I know they had interviews last month.

New manager are Felix Van Der Merwe and she now a auditor for IOSA (good connections????) But then that are probably how NW passes in the first place.

[Romeo E.T.]

New manager are Felix Van Der Merwe and she now a auditor for IOSA

If its the Felix that flew B727's at Comair...then they got a real "gentleman" there....I hope he hasn't changed...will be good for NTW

[Whenwe]

After Comair he flew B727's for NTW. He was due to go to the B767 as Training Capt, but the inevitable bond may gave put him off. Did he not go to Safair then?

I know Felix well, truely a Gentleman, and I hope Vernon appreciates him.

[Karooboer]

Dearly hope this one ain't true...:eek: :\ :eek:

Jip this one is true, it is all about sucking up and your the man!!!! A guy worked in ops and had less than a 1000 hrs of instruction on a C172, he kissed and sucked up to management and see there, a fluffy F/O and just a few more kisses and he now is a Captain. From selling little parachutes at airshows and being an opsclerk he just kissed up, so Victoria Buxton got fired and he needs a new lifeline to become fleetcaptain or CEO?????

[Karooboer]

If its the Felix that flew B727's at Comair...then they got a real "gentleman" there....I hope he hasn't changed...will be good for NTW
Yes this is the Felix that flew, and still are flying B727, he is a true person, he just sit with one big "HILL" of a problem in nationwide!!!!!!

[Deskjocky]

Yes this is the Felix that flew, and still are flying B727, he is a true person, he just sit with one big "HILL" of a problem in nationwide!!!!!

thats what happens when you give the HR dude too much power!

[driver airframe]

New manager are Felix Van Der Merwe and she now a auditor for IOSA (good connections????) But then that are probably how NW passes in the first place.

NTW has not passed any IOSA audit, they say that they are IOSA compliant(big difference) SAA, COMAIR & KENYA Airways are the only sub saharan carriers that have passed an IOSA audit.

http://www.iata.org/ps/services/iosa/registry

[Shrike200]

Jip this one is true, it is all about sucking up and your the man!!!! A guy worked in ops and had less than a 1000 hrs of instruction on a C172, he kissed and sucked up to management and see there, a fluffy F/O and just a few more kisses and he now is a Captain. From selling little parachutes at airshows and being an opsclerk he just kissed up, so Victoria Buxton got fired and he needs a new lifeline to become fleetcaptain or CEO?????

Regardless of your issues with him, this guy is actually a fine Captain. And he's not the suck-up kind if you ask me, that's not how he got where he is today.

[Deskjocky]

Seems to be a solid type and from what I hear. Called one of mates who flies for CE to arrange to meet for a beer and he was actually able to tell me his roster for the next 2 weeks- a major change forma while ago!

[Goldfish Jack]

HAd drinks with mate from Nationwide last night and he said you cant believe the difference there already!

They are darn lucky to have Felix there - what a great chap and gentlemen he is - only have the utmost respect for him.

Believe it was quite impressive a few days ago down the passage when he and VB had a little tete a tete and chat. Felix 1 VB 0

[luther55]

hey guys did yall see that ce got some certificate from iata for something cant remember tho an voted best domestic airline again 2006!they been doing a couple of good things since 2007 started tho!hopefully he will b doing somthing for his crew!does the pilots also get paid as :yuk: as the cc.

[rodmur]

there have been phots in all the media showing IATA handing over certifivate to VB on passing