Personal Indemnity Insurance

[Northern_Flyer]

As a newly qualified instructor I would appreciate any advice on the merits, or otherwise, of this type of insurance.
Is it considered necessary?
Where would I look for a good policy?

:confused:

[Captain Jock]

The answer to this perhaps depends on your personal wealth. There is little point suing someone for damages if they have no means to pay any award made against them. So if you have no money don't worry about it! On the other hand if you have any assets, including your home, you might feel the need to protect yourself at a time when people will resort to the courts anxious to blame someone (other than themselves) in the hope of getting monetary compensation. The only policy I am aware of which will offer you some protection can be found by going to the AOPA web site and following the link to instructor insurance.

[the dean]

As a newly qualified instructor I would appreciate any advice on the merits, or otherwise, of this type of insurance.
Is it considered necessary?
Where would I look for a good policy?

:confused:
northern flyer..

not sure what insurance you seek.:confused: ...is it to cover you in case of accident for personal injury .?you can purchase that but if you are talking about getting cover in the event of an action against the aircraft owner and you as pilot then you would normally be entitled to the benefit of your employers/clubs insurance.you should check the level of cover and the fact that you are nemed as instructor on the panel.

you would find it impossible i think or cost prohibitive to get any cover.:=

tell me what you had in mind so i can consider it further. PM me if you wish.:ok:

the dean.

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

In microlighting, we have had - on and off - a group policy for instructor's liability insurance through the BMAA.

It covers us for claims that we have not taught people properly, and costs about 80 a year IIRC.

Is it necessary? Well, after they have done a skills test, the liability really moves on - since someone independent has checked them out.

In training, just follow the procedures and keep paperwork up to date. Then you have done it by the book - so have some legal protection there.

Finally, this is an area where the CFI has to carry the can if you are an AFI!

Very best wishes.

[Northern_Flyer]

Gentlemen, thank you for your input.

The Dean,
I was thinking of insurance against the "no win no fee" leeches that have proliferated over recent years.

Captain Jock,
I have a roof over my head that I have paid for over many years. I will check out the AOPA website :).

[aerosteve]

should you join balpa as a flying instructor then you will get some loss of licence protection and legal advise included in you membership. and from memory its about 7.00 pounds per month as a instructor earning under 16k. thats value.

[vetflyer]

Hi

Is this still available ?

Has anyone taken it out and had to use it ?

Any differences between Balpa cover & AOPA one ?

Thanks

[Captain Jock]

This cover is still available and I have it arranged through Besso Ltd who run the AOPA scheme. Like all insurance I hope I never have to claim on it but I would rather have it than not!

[vetflyer]

Thanks for info

[The Old Fat One]

Aviation (piloting) is not really the starting point for this discussion, as it little different to any other form of business where the concept of indeminity insurance is concerned, although of course the specifics vary, as they do for every industry.

First the argument that if you have no wealth (or family) you don't need insurance may be perfectly true, it is also probably irrelevant in every case. Certainly so in the aviation world, since regulations require certain minumum levels of insurance.

Moving on, if this is a professional occupation how are you employed? If you are working for a business they should have you indemnity covered. In any event, assuming you have not broken the law, indemnity liability lies with your employer not with you. In aviation specifically, all commercial operators will be fully insured if they are in compliance with CAA and ICAO regs (pilots and aircraft) so unless you are working for a well dodgy outfit you should have no concerns.

If you are self employed or run your own business, you should have covered your indemnity insurance needs at start up - every start up business advisory course would include some resources on how to tackle this. Again in aviation, you will first have to comply with the law. If you are unsure, I'm certain the CAA could guide you.

For clubs and non-profit organisations the picture can be murkier - often because people don't know what they are insuring against. There are plenty of newspaper articles re people suing for things that have happened whilst engaged in a hobby or pastime. More often than not the presence or absence of insurance in these cases makes little or no odds because the cover is pathetic or wholly inappropriate. The activities governing bodies are sometimes the best place to find guidance, but also sometimes the worst because they may be acting as an agent for said insurance. Best thing is to get a solicitor to draw up a "participation at own risk" agreement for club members. Such things may not divert all indemnity claims, but do show that you have taken responsible steps to let people know that they carry their own risk whilst participating in such things as hang gliding etc.

Hope this helps.

[Whopity]

all commercial operators will be fully insured if they are in compliance with CAA and ICAO regs What CAA and ICAO regs?I'm certain the CAA could guide you.I am damn sure they cannot!

Most Flying Club/School Insurance does not cover Instructors for liability claims. They may be covered as a third party but in many cases as the pilot they are not.

The only company I know offering Instructor liability insurance is Besso; I recently contacted a broker offering aviation insurance and that was the only firm they could come up with.

[The Old Fat One]

I confess to being confused as to what type of insurance exactly we are discussing here.

Under UK law you are not liable for any claim against you from a third party whilst carrying out your employed duties, unless you are breaking the law or otherwise acting in a reckless manner. It's called "vicarious liability".

If you are flying under the employment of a flying school or flying club, why do need to insure against a third party claim?

PS

Just did a quick Google for flying school indemnity insurance and the web sites for Humberside, South Warwickshire et al detail/mention their public indemnity insurance. Just a quick search, because you had me doubting myself...I am pretty confident that any "proper" avaition company will hold adequate public indemnity insurance, to insure against any claims arising from the actions of its employees (including pilots).

Apologies if I am barking up the wrong tree or aviation is somehow different from industry norms...I'll move on.

[Whopity]

I confess to being confused as to what type of insurance exactly we are discussing here.
Personal Liability of the Instructor. In the past claims have been made for hull loss by an aircraft owner. Dead student's estate seeking recompense from an Instructor etc. Most instructors are self employed. The only Insurance required by Law is in accordance with EC Directive 785/2004 (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_portal/consultation/doc/2007_11_17/reg_785_2004.pdf)

[The Old Fat One]

So to summarise...

If you are in the employment of a correctly established flying school you do not need indemnity insurance since:

a. You are protected under employment law from third party claims.
b. Your employer is liable for third party claims and should be insured against them.

If you are self employed and operating your own aircraft you will need aviation suitable indemnity insurance, since no one else will be covering you.

The grey area would seem to be where you are "self-employed" as a flying instructor, but operating out of somebody else's aircraft.

I would think, in those circumstances, the need or otherwise for liability insurance would depend on:

The insurance cover provided (a copy in the Tech Log??)
The agreement between the customer/hirer (you) and the flying/school club (should be detailed in the Operations Manual and any supporting documents)
The constitution of the Flying Club (must be available to all its members).

I'm still struggling to see where any pilot (instructor or otherwise) can be held accountable for hull loss/damage on an aircraft which is correctly insured unless they where operating illegally. Maybe even more complicated if you were hiring through a syndicate I guess...then it should be in the syndicate agreement.

[EK4457]

I'm still struggling to see where any pilot (instructor or otherwise) can be held accountable for hull loss/damage on an aircraft which is correctly insured unless they where operating illegally.

Incorrect instruction of solo student, not operating the a/c in accordance with POH, becoming incapciatated due illness, sending solo student in legal but inappropriate weather conditions..... the list is endless. Not illegal but potentially libel.

It is no different to car insurance. You may well be fully insured as far as the law goes, but if you mow an OAP down and it was your fault the insurance company will pay their liabilities but then expect a civil law suit coming after YOU, not your insurance company!

If you are employed by a school, then they are liable for you so it's their problem.

However, if you are self employed (as most are) then this insurance could be for you.

Of course, if you are a limited company, then you are only liable to the amount of shares you own. £1 if you did it right.

If you are a sole trader then your liabilities are limitless. However, if you are broke (ie most instructors) then you have no money to give them anyway.

If you are loaded and a sole trader instructor, then it is highly recommended you get this type of insurance.

In a nutshell, you may well have covered all legal bases but you are very vunerable to a civil case in an instructional environment. That's where this insurance comes in.

[The Old Fat One]

Incorrect instruction of solo student, not operating the a/c in accordance with POH, becoming incapciatated due illness, sending solo student in legal but inappropriate weather conditions..... the list is endless. Not illegal but potentially libel.




No.

The law of vicarious liability allows an employee to make mistakes. Only in instances of obvious recklessness or law breaking (ie if you stole the ac) would an employer be able to duck the issue. Importantly, the person pursuing the damages cannot come after an employee. You would only end up with the buck if the pursuer had won their case against your employers and then the employers had then proved in court that you were breaking the law. If you do some research you will find that this has very rarely happened in the UK.


It is no different to car insurance. You may well be fully insured as far as the law goes, but if you mow an OAP down and it was your fault the insurance company will pay their liabilities but then expect a civil law suit coming after YOU, not your insurance company!


It is nothing to do with fault. It is to do with the legality or otherwise of your actions. You may well be right in the circumstance you describe above, but that changes nothing.

However, if you are self employed (as most are) then this insurance could be for you.


Correct

Of course, if you are a limited company, then you are only liable to the amount of shares you own. £1 if you did it right


Utter nonsense.

If you are a sole trader then your liabilities are limitless. However, if you are broke (ie most instructors) then you have no money to give them anyway.


If you are not insured and you get sued (and they win) it comes out of your assets. If you are dead, that means your estate. Read the story on the Graham Hill accident


If you are loaded and a sole trader instructor, then it is highly recommended you get this type of insurance


If you are a sole trader and you don't have indemnity insurance you are exposing yourself and your love ones to potential ruination - irrespective of your profession.

It is very clear that a number of you simply don't understand employment law. There are plenty of sites on the internet which can guide you. Likewise, IF it turns out you do need indemnity protection, there are many places that should be able to match one to your chosen profession (flying or otherwise.

Please note, I am only trying to help - I am no insurance expert, but I have managed the insurance policies for a flying school and I have started/ran several companies - all of which I organised the indemnity insurance for. Only last week I sourced and purchased the indemnity insurance for a personal trainer. Anyway enough from me - I hope it has given a few pointers.

PS If my reply about limited liability companies seems a bit harsh, it is because I own two of them and that sort of advice could see me end up in prison.

[EK4457]

Your ramblings are a bit confusing to say the least. 2 things are a bit fuzzy;

Firstly you bang on about how your employer is liable for your actions (within reason) via the vicarious liability doctrine. Which is spot on. But we have already agreed that there is no need for this insurance if you are employed for this exact reason. So, I'm not sure why you reject my point?

The scenarios I gave are realistic examples of not breaking the law but potentially being liable for an accident in the eyes of civil law. If you were to be a self employed instructor, this is exaclty the situation where you would need this insurance.

It is nothing to do with fault. It is to do with the legality or otherwise of your actions.

Sorry, but you are exactly wrong. It has everything to do with fault. If a civil court of law finds you at fault for an accident without breaking the law then that is exactly where this insurance kicks in. If you were at fault by breaking the law then you are in a criminal case and these insurance policies will not help you.


Point 2

A limited company, by definition, limits the liability of shareholders to effectively the value of their shares. I'm not sure why you think this is utter nonsense? It is the fundamental basis of a ltd co - the limited liability is the main reason why people form them.

I have a limited company with 1 share at £1. Nobody can come after me for more that that (unless criminally negligent as above).

Perhaps you can explain why you disagree with the above points?

EK

[Linton Chilcott]

I suspect that OFO's "rubbish" comment indicates that a Ltd Co's lack of liability is only for bad debts (if they go bankrupt) and not for accidents, etc?

I am very interested in this, as I am about to start a Ltd company providing Type Rating training / renewal. Normally, my company will operate another company's aircraft, and my contractor pilot and my company will operate under their insurance.

However, on occasion, I may have individual pilot customers who wish me to check / train them on another company's simulator / aircraft, and I will certainly need cover then, I assume.

Any TREs able to recommend cover?

[jay82]

you are a pilot by profession. so the insurance you seeking should be professional indemnity insurance shouldt it be?

[Whopity]

The law of vicarious liability allows an employee to make mistakes. Only in instances of obvious recklessness or law breaking (ie if you stole the ac) would an employer be able to duck the issue.Microlight student on PPL Skill test, he makes a mistake, the examiner takes over, but not soon enough to stop a heavy landing. The aircraft which was borrowed for the test, is written off and the owner takes civil action against the Examiner for the loss of the hull. The Examiner is not employed by any school, and could be self employed like most instructors or simply doing it as a hobby. This is the case that spurred the BMAA to set up an insurance scheme to cover such liability. I am not aware of any similar scheme for SEP type instruction.

[Fostex]

This is the case that spurred the BMAA to set up an insurance scheme to cover such liability. I am not aware of any similar scheme for SEP type instruction. Is anyone aware of such insurance for instructing PPL(A) in SEP?

I note the Besso policy specifically states the clause...

"Does this policy cover damage caused to the aircraft by the Instructor? NO"

In effect if a instructor operating in a private capacity is performing a reval in a private aircraft and there is an accident due to instructor error they are liable. In this case the insurance company will pay out for the hull loss to the aircraft operator, but will then try to recover costs from the instructor who was operating as PIC as they are liable. Is there insurance to mitigate against this liability?

[Whopity]

Last year I looked and contacted Russ Stein (http://www.flyingcover.co.uk/aboutus.shtml) an insurance broker who offers pilot insurance. The only policy we could find was the Besso policy.

The CAA who claim this insurance is essential in their on-line Examiner Brief were asked where it could be obtained. They did not even understand the question!