Airservices Australia Global Search for ATCs [Archive]

Jerricho

18th Nov 2006, 01:20

Who, in their right mind, would want make such a move to a country which, on the face of it is a great place to live but in reallity has higher taxes than the UK, greater relative unemployment figures and a climate which would test the most experienced resident of the Sahara desert.

You know I look back fondly at all those countless wasted hours of sitting in traffic on the M25 trying to get to work (soon to be the M27 'eh), while watching the fuel needle slowly drop having paid christ knows how many dollars a litre for gas and insurance in a vehicle I was one of the only people in my street who was lucky enough to have off street parking out the front of my 60 year old 650 square foot half a million dollar semi-detached with a postage stamp of a back yard 30 miles from work because that's all I could afford on my wonderful ATCO salary all the time praying the pollution didn't affect my health and force me to rely on the NHS

No, no wait, it was the single bedroom $650,000 flat in Harrow that I rented across the road from the school that didn't have ANY grass for the kids to play and where I had to leave my car out on the road to be broken into twice that still took me an hour and a half to get to work with all the traffic in the pissing down rain .......... that will always hold a special place in my heart.................rrrriiiiiiigggghhhhhhhtttttt. :rolleyes:

celeritas

18th Nov 2006, 02:49

Is this just a coincidence........... didn't the Australian government just pass the final hurdle in implementing their new Industrial Relations laws?? Don't want to sound like a conspiracist but this has AWA written all over it!!!!

Jerricho

18th Nov 2006, 02:51

My wife and I were discussing that exact thing this morning when an old work buddy of mine from Brisbane centre emailed me the link.

tobzalp

18th Nov 2006, 03:55

My wife and I were discussing that exact thing this morning when an old work buddy of mine from Brisbane centre emailed me the link.
And I was discussing the same thing with the same bloke this morning. The company has got to get serious. If they want to entice guys with experience, they need to pay them what guys already working with the same experience have, ie the top of the pay scale. Simple. You know full well that Airservices are looking at this as a way of getting the dudes who have left to come back and not actually entice anyone else to leave their job. Guys in the UK are not the target audience. It is the sand pit and Canada. Most of those left knowing if they want to come back, they start at the bottom again. Airservices is thinking that by putting the start up 3 or 4 increments, this may sway some of them. They don't want just straight out experienced people, they want guys with experience in Australian ATC and TAAATS.
Side note, my titties bounce with laughter everytime some idiot does a straight currency conversion from one country to their own/another and bases their perceived level of potential living standard on that. Very very naive.

Gonzo

18th Nov 2006, 04:55

Side note, my titties bounce

Now that's a lovely image at 0555 local!

'Global Search for ATCOs' sounds like a pitch for a reality TV show.....

....I wonder..........

The ATC Groove

18th Nov 2006, 07:00

Track Coastal......

Angolia, South Africa (can you imagine how many applications we will get from there!!!), Sweden, Mexico..... just to name a few.

Groove

The ATC Groove

18th Nov 2006, 07:04

Jerricho.....

Is it tempting, to leave all that snow and come home?????

The Euronator

18th Nov 2006, 07:05

Dirty Pierre & ATC Groove,

Nah, not yet...Although Brisbane Tower would be nice :}

Not Hunter please..then I have to sit next to Blandy & Carl again :}

It would probably be TOPS, sitting with other ex Euro, who must be doing his head in over the night shifts :ugh:...Where are you TT , have you been banned again ?

Jerricho

18th Nov 2006, 07:59

Jerricho.....
Is it tempting, to leave all that snow and come home?????

I have just opened a fortune cookie that says "You will set forth on a long journey very soon".

No wait, that'll be the UK in January ;)

Here's a further question.........will there be a "relocation package" to help with the move? Dreaming? Probably, but Nav Canada certainly did to the tune of $15000 CAD (granted it was receiptable but still)

VoxPopuli

18th Nov 2006, 10:29

South Africa (can you imagine how many applications we will get from there!!!),

Without causing an international incident, is this a positive or a negative comment?

Jerricho

18th Nov 2006, 10:46

Dunno........

Is

That post was propably made by your standard Australian homophobe who consider South Africans as the scum of the earth

:rolleyes:

Deep breaths Mr Paranoid.

Dct no speed

18th Nov 2006, 11:08

Gidday Mates!

Very few Good controllers left in SA (all looking for greener and safer places) and the rumour that even the guys in Cape town are now leaving should indicate that you soon will have more South African Cv's.(Good thing, we work hard and are very cheap .......but not easy or is it easy but not cheap

Jo burg has the Eurocat system and Cape town As well! Thales also have a South African System engineer From SA working for them Down Under!

We also need a fly half, some forwards, a centre a full back and a new coach. Could you guys please send back the Zambian born Georgie to come help out in SA.

PS ATC GROVE...... ANGOLA (Africa) MONGOLIA (Russia) not Angolia mate!

Heard the ASA also looking for guys from Lebanon!!!! This should get you going!;)

Have to also say the POMS moan to much and they can not stand the "Heat" send them all back. Leave the Southern part of the world to those that drink cold beer and like hot woman not the other way round. :ok:

En-Rooter

18th Nov 2006, 11:52

Dct,

With all due respect to George (he's had an amazing career) he's hung around just a wee bit too long. You can have him.

ASA's global search for controllers, a cynical exercise perhaps? With the CANSO wankers banding together to fix wages and not poach?

My group has been short staffed since TAAATS transition (6 years or so?) A little late to recruit now isn't it boys? Or are the recruits going to get all the jobs on the employment opportunities board the rest of us can't be released for?

mmmmmmmmmm

VoxPopuli

18th Nov 2006, 12:31

Yeah, I shot my keyboard of in that post without thinking and for that I apologise. But my question still stands.

Jerricho

18th Nov 2006, 16:19

I don't really think it was a pop and Sth. Africans at all Mr Vox.

Seems to be a bit of an exodus from there of late (Dct no speed kinda supports this with his last post).

Interesting.

AirNoServicesAustralia

18th Nov 2006, 17:34

The bit I am wondering about is the part about having to meet Australian Immigration requirements. Now up till now ASA hasn't employed you unless you were able to get permanent residency, and you couldn't get residency without the job, so catch 22 for all my Sth African colleagues trying to come to a country with a decent rugby and cricket team. Has that changed and under this new search will ASA be able to open the flood gates and employ guys without residency and then help them get it once employed.

Either way, I'm still enjoying the sandpit way too much to come back for a massive paycut, so tax free living for me for a while longer.

VoxPopuli

18th Nov 2006, 18:16

ASA states on their website that they will sponsor non-residents until they have satisfied their and immigration's requirements.

Having read the post again I understand that The Groove was not being derogatery. Sorry again. I do have a serious beef with the English at this point in time. I think I will go and visit an establishment of ill repute now to further drown my sorrows. Damn English.:{

throw a dyce

18th Nov 2006, 18:31

I wonder if some of the large number of Aussies in Hong Kong might be tempted.The money isn't great but if you've got a few gratuities stashed away,then it might be just be all the bait that's needed.HK might be in trouble.:ooh:

The ATC Groove

19th Nov 2006, 04:31

Just for the record, it was in no way meant as a negative comment.

Allow me to explain......

I have just returned from Cape Town, having spent time with controllers from CT, J'burg, George and from my discussions with them, they are very unhappy with their employer. They have some 370 odd controllers for the whole country and J'burg is way busier than Sydney.

The country is incredibly unsafe to live, they use Eurocat (even though not fully stripless yet!!!) and the climate is very similar in OZ.

All this lead to me thinkin that we would have many of them apply (and I think we will) and come to Australia.

From meeting the President and vicepresident and other members of the guild, they are amazing people who we would love to have here in Oz, infact they would be come a real asset to our company.

Some of our best friends here in Oz are South African's and my boy knows enought Africaans to be cheeky!!!!

Please come, (Stu and the guys) you would be more than welcome to have a Braai at my place drinking castle lager and having MrsBalls on your Baudesvaus?? (your great national sausage, sorry about the spelling!!).

Thanks

Groove

Brocky

19th Nov 2006, 10:31

So! With umpteen years experience, I'll get the highest pay level they have for a radar controller then they'll.....pay my way back home and.....put me up in a nice hotel for what.....3 to 4 weeks to find a house or a rental?

Hmmmmm..... me thinks they might take the winner of the lowest bid.

Cynical.....HELL YES!

If they are REEEAAALLLY serious then I would be expecting a job offer any minute now.....about now.....sshhh.....here it comes.....nooo.....ooh.....ZZZZzzzz.....:{

Shitsu_Tonka

19th Nov 2006, 23:20

DCT No Speed,

The last thing we want is controllers coming here who advertise themselves as 'cheap'.

It's hard enough trying to keep our salaries up just with inflation without having to fight a race to the bottom attitude.

But we do need people who can do the job well and expect to be paid properly, wherever they come from.

However:

On that salary living in Brisbane you could easily afford a house and send your kids to private school.

I don't agree. Any reasonably sized family house in an area close enough to work is going to start around 500-600K these days.

Beaches? Not in Brisbane I am sorry. Melbourne and Brisbane are the main centres - both are very different cities, and equally appealing but for different reasons.

5miles

20th Nov 2006, 01:11

ANSA..

Come home & join me up north. You'll still have your unbearable heat, sandy beaches (albeit out of bounds), and cold cold beer.
:ok:

TinPusher

20th Nov 2006, 04:58

Hi All

There is a fair amount of interest here regarding potential jobs in OZ. I spoke today with collegue who was talking to ASA earlier in the year, he stated that as Kiwi's we still have to go through the residency process. Are any of you able to confirm this?
What's driving this latest recruitment? I understand that ASA have plans to centralise operations to Melbourne and Brisbane and that many ATC's in Sydney are unwilling to relocate, particularly to Melbourne. Is this ASA's way of working around this?
What are the chances of direct hire to Brisbane rather than Melbourne?
Rumour control has it that ASA and Airways NZ have a 'no poaching staff' agreement, have any of you heard of this?

TP

SM4 Pirate

20th Nov 2006, 05:47

Hi All
There is a fair amount of interest here regarding potential jobs in OZ. I spoke today with collegue who was talking to ASA earlier in the year, he stated that as Kiwi's we still have to go through the residency process. Are any of you able to confirm this? Info here; http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/17nz.htm but doesn't say you get/need permanent residency, and that is a requirement of being an ATC in OZ.
What's driving this latest recruitment?
Potentially a realisation of why ATC morale is low (they love the job, hate the employer, how many ATCs worldwide can say that?); we've been saying we're running on the bones of our arse for many years; they keep saying 'your hiding people' and you're not really short. Reality we are short by around 60 on line ATCs; now it's middle managers fault for not telling those above what is going on; oh my god, yeah right! Maybe dinning out on the corporate credit cards makes you miss the whinging and the 'bleeding obvious'.

We have heaps of training to do to reform the 'business', so we are 2010 and beyond 'ready', (ie make it cheaper for the airlines and make it more expensive for GA); age profile, particularly in towers is seriously slanted to late 70s (some earlier than that!, get out of those towers boys the C&SS pensions / defined pensions are worth taking while you're young (LOL) enough to enjoy them) and early 80s recruits.

I understand that ASA have plans to centralise operations to Melbourne and Brisbane and that many ATC's in Sydney are unwilling to relocate, particularly to Melbourne. Is this ASA's way of working around this? Simple abandoned the project; TCU Consolidation is a dead duck as it just wasn't financially viable, and it didn't make sense; but hey they don't listen to us, so who did they listen too?
What are the chances of direct hire to Brisbane rather than Melbourne? My sources tell me less chance (BN is less short than ML, but still short), but still every chance; the (conversion) training is in Melbourne regardless, tower controllers will end up who-knows-where; enroute (centre) in Melbourne or Brisbane; TMA controllers in PH, AD, CS, BN, or ML. We also have a plan to integrate (Project Genesis) the RAAF into ASA, some towers and some approach units; but there will be some blue shirters involved in moving to BN or ML for that; but ultimately civi's only in the towers run by ASA for the RAAF; and probably the TMAs associated with those too (but it's secret squirrel business).

Rumour control has it that ASA and Airways NZ have a 'no poaching staff' agreement, have any of you heard of this? Yes "unofficial CANSO agreement" no poaching between member nations; but hey when sh!ts are trumps; who cares... Also that was when we had a different CEO; and it's unofficial...

The ATC Groove

20th Nov 2006, 05:56

I have to apologise to the people of Angolia (should of been Angola) as it was Algeria that has Eurocat..... see below.
Groove
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p251/timborees/ATCinAlgeria.jpg

TinPusher

20th Nov 2006, 07:27

Pirate, cheers for the info:ok:
Is there much of a waiting list to get to towers such as Coolangata or Sunshine Coast or are they considered the 'plum' pre-retirement spots?:)

5miles

20th Nov 2006, 07:59

Pirate, cheers for the info:ok:
Is there much of a waiting list to get to towers such as Coolangata or Sunshine Coast or are they considered the 'plum' pre-retirement spots?:)
Not a waiting list per se, but usually plenty of interest when vacancies do arise. Less so for Rocky, Mackay, or even Hamilton Island from current TWR staff.

TinPusher

20th Nov 2006, 08:12

Nice....;)
Warm up the barbie for those prawns and chill off the bevvies 'cos I reckon you may see a few of us across that way fella's.:D assuming we would be welcome!:O
Airways NZ.... last one out turn off the lights!!:}

tobzalp

20th Nov 2006, 08:31

Did the conversion training for and work with one of your kiwi mates and I can assure you that you would be made welcome. Anyone who would hold anything against any non Aussie wanting to come here is likely to just be a bit of a prick anyway.

Side note, talking to a Civil Air(aussie ATC 'union') rep, the association has not been consulted at all. People hired would however be covered by the Certified Agreement. In short, this(the CA part, not the consultation) is a good thing for those considering the move.

www.civilair.asn.au has a thread forming on this topic. Inform yourself and ask questions as required.

Dick N. Cider

20th Nov 2006, 17:00

Tobzalp mate,

It's not just Civil Air who didn't know. The missive about new hires completely blind-sided most of the operational management. Canberra cooked up this surprise all on their lonesome.

DNC

Dct no speed

20th Nov 2006, 19:39

Sorry mate just a joke, about the "cheap" part, like all ATC's we are capitalistic pigs. We South Africans can also hold our own when it comes to pushing the tin. Specially the boys and girls from Jo'burg (Where things are not well at the moment!!! ).Our Rand is currently not even worth the paper it is printed on and our bok coach has lost his mind. WE NEED GEORGE TO COME COACH NOT PLAY!

Aussie was for a long time a Dream for a lot, but "The Closed Sign" was up for a long time. There is such a world wide shortage of controllers today that one can almost start getting picky about where you want to go.

From what I know of Aus is that it is the closes thing to the old SA.(Not refering to the racism and Apartheid - Before I get shot at sunrise) But a country with a future going in the right direction. I hope that we may soon share a Prawn On the BBQ or a Braai with the folks down under.
:ok:

Ps Are there any single, good looking, open minded girls working down under that might like to put up with a SOUTH AFRICAN BOY for a while ?:)

DirtyPierre

21st Nov 2006, 02:21

Are there any single, good looking, open minded girls working down under that might like to put up with a SOUTH AFRICAN BOY for a while ?

Yeah, Kylie and Elle were only saying to me last Sunday, when they came over for a barbie, that they'd like to meet some nice Seth Afrikens.

But seriously, you'd be welcome, except when you cheer the Boks (or Bulls, Cheetahs, Stormers, or Sharks).

Dct no speed

21st Nov 2006, 04:36

Thanks, tell Kylie we are sending some specimens her way soon.

As for the rugby I think we should both look for new teams to support as the Walabies are also a bit below par at the moment!

On a more serious note, what is the pension/retirement scheme like? What is the retirement age. Do you need private health care? Tax ? Interest rate ?

What sort of roster do you work, we do 2morning 2afternoon 2nights sleep 3 days off. Leave ?

Thanks DCT:ok:

tobzalp

21st Nov 2006, 05:23

In summary. 72 hour fortnight. Max 10 min 6 hour shifts. 10 hours off in between. Overtime paid at 1.85x normal rate. Public holidays(bank holidays) paid at same as OT. 6 weeks a year leave if you work a roster containing night shifts, 5 if you don't. Generally 4 on 2 off roster with some modification from place to place. There is a 'retirement' fund. Look up http://www.avsuper.com.au/

retire at 60. Tax is a sliding scale as per

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/12333.htm

Some ATCs do get into the top bracket but not many after lots and lots of Overtime. $126K(or so. haven't looked in a while) is the top rate then OT and pub hols on top.

Private health insurance saves you a further 1% of tax each year. You can get the top cover for a family for anywhere from $150-200 plus a month. Public system is rubbish so private is the way to go.

ollie_a

21st Nov 2006, 05:59

Info here; http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/17nz.htm but doesn't say you get/need permanent residency, and that is a requirement of being an ATC in OZ.

I moved over from NZ at the beginning of this year for ab initio training, and I can confirm that NZ citizenship is all that is required for AsA.

Spuds McKenzie

21st Nov 2006, 08:03

retire at 60
Oh dear... :(

Funk

21st Nov 2006, 14:01

Just for the record, it was in no way meant as a negative comment.

. They have some 370 odd controllers for the whole country and J'burg is way busier than Sydney. Groove

eh????

I realise that you can't move in the Sydney App Cell without hitting a controller but unless you're referring to movements per controller I hazard a guess that SY would **** on Joburg for bussiness (between 6am & 11pm). I have been reliably informed that SY - ML is one of the top 10 city pairs in the world. During peak periods with both runways SY has some pretty amazing movement rates.

Getting back to the thread, not wanting to burn my bridges (but I don't think they want me back anyway!) you can have Airservices...I have had my fill of 'change management' to last a lifetime.
If you can stomach the BS, Brisneyland is the happiest place on earth to live (long as they get some rain soon). Despite what someone else said you are closer to beaches in Brisbane because you won't have to spend 2hrs+ in Sydney traffic to get to Bondi/Manly/Coogee/Cronulla to find no carparks or race home before sunset lest you get robbed and bashed if you came on the train or bus.
I did manage on my BN Area FPC pay ($130K including O/T before tax is taken out and no second income from a partner) pay off a mortage on a good size highset (sure it wont appear in 'Better Homes' but at least it is my slum!), 2 ex-wives, sent 2 kids through private (albeit Catholic) school, owned a mid size car, two motor bikes, three mountain bikes, two dogs (including vet bills!!!), went on a couple of overseas trips (sent one daughter on 2 overseas tours with her school orchestra), have a decent share portfolio, always had half a bottle of red each night, pay TV for the Super 14/Bikes, cable internet, attended university part time (AsA's expense), full private health insurance.......the piont is if anyone tells you that you can't get by on the around $100K ATCO salary in Australia (yer SY you would struggle) they are full of ****!

As far as Tower work goes, I'd give me left nut to go to Coff's.

AirNoServicesAustralia

21st Nov 2006, 17:31

The Euronator

21st Nov 2006, 18:42

Air No Services,

It seems like it is always a p$#@ing contest with you. Oh I am busy, oh they are busier...who cares !!!!. You get what you are dealt with and you do the best you can with that. Every controller can develop into handling more traffic, it just takes training and time..your not so special mate..get over it.

Dave The Snail

21st Nov 2006, 19:54

Amen to that - unfortunately it seems that the entire aviation environment is just a pissing contest these days - get over it the lot of you and get a life.

SM4 Pirate - out of curiosity, what did you mean earlier when you talked about the age profile of tower controllers etc - I know I'm a bit slow but it went over my head.

Thanks

The Snail

boomslang

21st Nov 2006, 21:22

Damn the Sth Africans keep their movement figures close to their chest, so it took me about 20 minutes of Googling to dig them up. I guess they don't want to let out to the rest of the world how quiet their airspace is.:E

Sydney, even with a nighttime curfew in place, had for the month of March 2006, 24,438 total aircraft movements, whilst Joburg for the same month had 17,562 total aircraft movements (and that was their busiest month ever). Just to add to that, Bankstown, Sydney's second airport (mainly for light aircraft and the like) had a whopping 28,048 total movements for the month.

So sorry ATC Groove but I think you better rethink this whole idea of Joburg being ****loads busier than Sydney as it's not, in fact it is more on a par with Melbourne movement figures. Cheers.

Aaah. You have to look at what is being presented is it billed movements, runway movements or sector movements?

Meaning in SA we only charge for the arrivals (landings) and this is generally the "movement" count that is presented. As I have it the rest of the world (bar one or two ANSP's) count actual runway throughput (takeoffs and landings) as well as the sector throughput.

Eg.
In SA:
Depart from airport A to airport B = 1 movement at airport A (Dep) and 1 at airport B (landing).

Actual is 1 at airport A and 1 at sector D and E and F before landing at Airport B. A total of 6. Seems as if other ANSP's have been adding all the movements to their total count as it should be while SA has only been presenting the arrivals and departures. (ANSA can shed more light I'm sure on how they count theirs).

Touch and Go is counted as 1 movement only GF flights as 1 movement only. As the charge is for a landing only.

When you look at the runway throughput, some of the regional airports in SA have figures of 10000 plus runway movements in a month (as high as 14500). Might not seem so much at first but they are only open for 12 hours a day and only have 1 frequency with 1 controller on duty at a time all while working non radar approach without a co-ord. Busiest hours frequently approach 100 movements in an hour.

SM4 Pirate

22nd Nov 2006, 00:39

SM4 Pirate - out of curiosity, what did you mean earlier when you talked about the age profile of tower controllers etc - I know I'm a bit slow but it went over my head. My understanding is that there are somewhere upwards of 150 people over 50 still working online; most of those reside in tower locations... I believe the average age in towers is 45+; of course this has been reduced by the abintio direct tower courses (what success the CDP has been, not!) they are doing at the moment; but there are lots of people waiting to be released from centres and tcus to get those illustrious tower jobs; but the 'tipping point' would be if those eligible for retirement gave notice; they are the cork in the botle (collectively). I believe that there are very similar issues within the TCUs (particularly out of BN and ML) regarding age profiles.

The reason they use profiles is that averages might not tell the real story. Might be average age at a location 35; but that is because it has 4 who are 50 and 4 who are 20. The profile tells us we need 4 within 3 years at that location (on average retirment age); but we might need 4 in 3 months as they are entitled to go now; it's just how do you position yourself HR wise for the what if's (carry fat for the retirements or guess at getting it right and suffer the consequences if you guess wrong). Take the US controllers contract for example; stay and you effectively get less than you would if you retire now; well ok not rocket science, I'm out of here. The next CA will be very interesting, or the AWA battle will be more so.

Dave The Snail

22nd Nov 2006, 01:02

SM4 Pirate - thanks for the response. Do I take it then that the tower positions are the ones that most of the more 'mature' in Airservices aim for? (A retirement posting for want of a better term) If so, what is the feeling then, when the last recruiting drive is looking for pretty much 'direct entries' and they go straight to the tower locations? If there is angst there, it must also make it difficult for the poor guys and girls that do decide to come across and get the 'plum' jobs.

Shitsu_Tonka

22nd Nov 2006, 01:06

If you really care, here are the Australian movements. Movements are only arrivals.

But what does it matter - the controller in Maroochydore can be just as busy as the controller in Sydney or J'burg.

What is most interesting is the growth. Another reason we need more people - but we needed them years ago anyway.

Interesting times ahead.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/reports/maa.asp?id=2006

If you are considering moving here, do the sums on tax and what the real cost of living is - there are plenty of Australian controllers considering going overseas - so why is that?

Some advice I have heard is to make sure you are employed under the Certified Agreement terms and do not sign a separate Workplace agreement - but I couldn't possibly comment on that one way or the other.

AirNoServicesAustralia

22nd Nov 2006, 01:16

Sorry guys, I thought the pissing contest started with ATC Groove making the comment that Joburg was way busier than Sydney. Along with Funk I found this a strange claim, and when I found it not to be the case I thought it should be corrected. I am sure with the staffing situation at ATNS the traffic in Joburg can get very busy, and so not aiming to short change the job the guys do down there, but if you are going to make a claim on here, make sure it is correct. In this case it wasn't.

Anyway you are right the traffic levels are irrelevant, and the real issue for guys applying to ASA is what are they like to work for? I have been gone almost 5 years and so I am sure lots have changes have happened in that time, so maybe not the person to ask. The 2 things that were the sealer for me leaving was firstly the constant chipping away at conditions by management, losing this small thing here and that small thing there, all for CPI salary increases. Secondly and most importantly was the fact that there was the feeling there was always someone ready to pounce and stand you down at the slightest indiscretion. I felt there was no common sense in the whole process and that some people were justifying there own existence by constantly standing down people (or worse) over things that would only be logged in the rest of the ATC world. I am sure there will be a ton of guys from all over the world (not least SA) that will go anyway and good luck to them.

AirNoServicesAustralia

22nd Nov 2006, 01:37

And again not a pissing contest but correcting errors only, ****su Tonka, movements aren't just arrivals. As it says in the notes section of the document you linked, ASA movement figures are calculated by adding Arrivals to Circuits and multiplying by 2, which accounts for departures and other flights. Joburg figures under their notes, while not doing it the same way, quote departures, arrivals, and all other flights, non scheduled, military etc (doesn't matter whether billed or not), and add them all together. End of the day, different counting system but pretty much same outcome.

Dct no speed

22nd Nov 2006, 09:06

Hmmmmmm Guys you call a tough game here.
I left the Sinking "SAS ATNS" for a lot of the same reasons some of you say are present in ASA.
I know that there is no place on Earth that is perfect. I am not unhappy where I am at the moment(but not entirely happy either), but need to think about settling down somewhere with KYLIE and raising some future rugby players.

Problem is will they play for the Kiwiws or Tha Walabies.
Looks like they will never again play for the BOKKE. No matter who the coach or what they pay. Just not safe ther any more, they also won't fit into the New SA brand.

Thanks to all for making this a thread, that has The GOOD,The BAD and The UGLY all in one. So we have all the info needed, before making a decision!
:D
Ps:The ATC Groove It is BOEREWORS :D

OscarTango

23rd Nov 2006, 14:07

I thought about moving to OZ in the past, and this opportunity does make me doubt again...I haven't looked into it to closely but 6 weeks leave is quite a difference from the 8 - 10 weeks we have over at Eurocontrol. The money is -cost of living taken into account - not my main priority anyway, albeit not completely unimportant :rolleyes:

We are used to a certain standard of living and I'd like to keep it that way... a fellow ATCO ( from OZ, don't know his nickname on the boards ) said a house would set me back about 350.000 euro's ...hm, that's the same as my house here costs me, but with quite a lower salary to go on. Makes me wonder...

I might just fill in the paperwork and see what comes out of it... nothing keep me here at the moment. Wife...gone, kids...none, parents...moving to France themselves...friends, would love a holiday address in OZ :E

SM4 Pirate

23rd Nov 2006, 21:43

OT; a very good house would set you back 350.000 Euros; the average house price in BN and ML is similar around $350K AUD (just a guess by the way). Which is about half of 350.000 Euros... Sydney is a lot more expensive within an hours drive of work.

But, if I were looking for a change Eurocontrol would be right up there on my list; so what does that say?

The grass is always greener, but you need to have the cash factor very much considered when weighing up your options. It works out about 1/2 money here (or less), with a lower cost of living equation, but sadly not half of one.

Shitsu_Tonka

23rd Nov 2006, 23:43

I am not sure about 350K for a 'reasonable' house in Brisbane any more than Melbourne. 450K-550K in my view - but have a look for yourself:

www.realestate.com.au

It's all overpriced on the back of cheap credit over the past few years, which has just changed - interest rates on mortgages in Australia now around 7.5-8.0 %. House prices pretty steady (unless you are in Perth which is out of control - artificially)

TrafficTraffic

24th Nov 2006, 03:29

Why not try and get Leave without pay for some period of time from your present employer and have a go in Aus - if its not for you then no problems.

You may even find your present employer encouraging you to do it and everybody might learn something in the long run. It would also be a good way to see exactly what AsA are offering (ie perm vs contract or AWA).

Most of the English cricket team would come down under given the chance - of course none of them would get a game in our National team - not good enough,

I know Heerlen 2nds could do with some players though ....

(we might take Freddy he's pretty good!)

TT

Shitsu_Tonka

24th Nov 2006, 11:19

Interesting comparison?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2983661&postcount=10

OscarTango

24th Nov 2006, 15:12

Sure is interesting...hm, maybe I'll have another good look at the grass over here :}

Unpaid leave would be a possiblity, allthough I'm sure they'd put me in one of the other sectors upon return, because they're short of staff, and my current sector is not. And I like my sector :E

Human nature : wanting to have what you can't get ? I'd sure liketo try the Aussie lifestyle, because it seems so much more relaxed...and customer service actually means something over there ( what I understood from some Aussie colleagues ). Here, you should be grateful you're allowed to be a customer with any big firm/business etc... but this would take us off-topic.

An exchange program for 2 years or so would be great, but that's a far fetched dream, probably. We'll see...

Thanks for the replies..
OT

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Nov 2006, 06:54

One thing all prospective ASA employees need to look at really closely is the roster that guys in Australia work. The guys still working there can give you an up to date idea of what they work now, but from all reports it's still not great with lots of quick turnarounds (ie 10 or 11 hours between shifts). Never realised just how bad the E,A,M,N roster was for your health till I left and started working a 6 on, sleep, 3 off roster, where you have 2 mornings, followed by 2 afternoons, followed by 2 nights. You can actually have a life with your family during your work cycle. This is a very serious consideration to anyone looking to go to Oz.

Also posted on NZ ATC jobs thread was the comment that in Oz you can work 10 on, one off, 10 on etc. (not rostered that way but with O/T), whereas here in the Middle East, we are required to have a minimum of 2 60 hr (2 and 1/2 days) breaks every 30 day period, and any time we work 7 shifts in a row, we have to have a 60 hr break after it. Sometimes it means you have to go without the odd overtime shift in the name of fatigue management but in the long run it is a good thing. I think sometimes you need regulations to protect people from themselves, and being allowed to work 10 on, one off, 10 on, is not protecting people. Again another very important thing to consider.

DirtyPierre

25th Nov 2006, 23:02

ANSA,

Just shows how out of touch you've become. There are a multitiude of different rosters in Oz ATC. The E, A, M, N roster often requires 2 people on the N (doggo).

It isn't as common as it used to be. For instance, on Byron Group the FPCs line is 1500-2300, 1400-2200, 1200-2000, 0600-1400, ROD, ROD, 0700-1500, 0530-1212, 2300-0542, ROD, ROD......

Any newbies into Oz ATC in Brissie would expect to be on a 2 arvos, 2 mornings, 2 days off cycle til they were FPC. It would take some time on most groups to become FPC. Byron and Fraser groups would require about 18months before becoming FPC and being eligible to do doggos.

Tops is the only group that has journeyman doing doggos.

Other groups have different rosters for their circumstances. Macquarie and Hunter groups have different rosters again for winter and summer due to daylight saving.

It's not as simple as you think. FAID virtually eliminated the 10 days on, single day off. Plus, if your FAID score is above 80, you can't be forced to come in on a day off at all.

Things have changed in many ways since you were last in town, cowboy.

AirNoServicesAustralia

26th Nov 2006, 01:21

The condascending tone of your reply is really appreciated DP. As I said in my post though, things still aren't great. As you said in your post, guys still do the morning doggo turnaround, and they still do 8pm finishes, back for 6am starts. I never said guys are forced to do 10 on 1 off, and as you said if your FAID is above 80 you can't be forced to come in at all. I said guys sometimes need to be protected from themselves, which means having regulations that don't allow them to come in when they haven't had adequate breaks. And also you say I am out of touch by pointing out that you often are required to have two people on a night shift. Nowhere in my post did I say that you had single manned nightshifts??!!??

It shows how out of touch you are with the rest of the world if you think the rostering examples you gave show that Australian rosters are good to work. As I said to the guys considering going to Australia, and supported by your post, you will do quick turnarounds and as a result be fatigued and not see your family for days at a time. But hey if you think by me pointing this out makes me a cowboy, then fair enough. I just thought I was giving guys a heads up as to one of the big reasons there are a lot of Australian controllers now working overseas. That and whopping income tax.

As I have said to the non-Aussies working here, who are seriously looking at Oz ATC, there are a lot of positives to working in Oz. Firstly as we all know, it is a great country in which to live. But also I pointed out the facilities at the centres, eg. the cafeteria, gymnasium, pay tv, standdown rooms with proper beds etc. In addition to those points if they are able to start on about 100k as the advertisement says, then relative to the rest of Australians they will be making a good salary, and if they have a decent nest egg saved from their time in the sand pit, and can buy a house without a mortgage when they arrive in Melbourne or Brisbane, then that 100k will go a long way to having a great lifestyle. But along with the positives, you need to make sure the guys are aware of the negatives.

AirNoServicesAustralia

26th Nov 2006, 05:22

Seems its not just me that doesn't think the rosters worked in Oz are all they should be. As posted by ****su Tonka as taken from OZ ATC Union Website.

Interesting point of difference when you consider that there is another big thread running about the Australian recruitment.
As a comparison, in Australia you can be expected to work 21 shifts with 1 day off after 10 (i.e. 10 in a row max, one day off then another 10 etc.)
There is no maximum time plugged in for radar or non-radar. Most shifts are 8-9 hours. I often do TMA Radar for 2:20 without a break, because of how tight the rosters run.
Fatigue is 'managed' in accordance with a system that is based on the FAID system. The acceptable level is equivalent of driving at 0.05 BAC.

tobzalp

26th Nov 2006, 06:35

TrafficTraffic

26th Nov 2006, 09:24

I assume ANSA that quote was from the public section of the Coco website.

TT

Funk

26th Nov 2006, 09:32

To be fair, you compare to the ASA rostering to the ME and a 6 on 3 off with 2 back to back nights every cycle is something that would specifically stop me from applying to go. Even TOPS in BN has a better run and they do the most doggos. I wonder what FAID would say with that run? (not that faid is worth a pinch of ****).

Having just recently escaped/booted out of Tops (No-Radar Procedureal/Oceanic Airspace + Darwin arrivals for those foreigners not familiar with BN) after nearly five years there I can't remember working a steady roster for longer than 3 months. We were constantly asked to accommodate poor rostering because of the constant changes to airspace, procedures, training and staff shortages. In defence of ANSA (not that he needs defending) I too prefer the MMAANNROOO (with every third one being a single day break) roster compared to fatigue riddled rosters on Tops.
I had one of the lower sick leave usuages in the group of about 6 days a year (avg in the group 10+), since being here in the pit I have had only 1 day off, I guess it is due to the fact that I am no where near as tired. By day 3 of the EAMN or EDMM or EAMNN with 2 (or 3 days after double night shift) off on Tops I was so cranky and tired my kids and dogs would be avoiding me. Additionally there was still no rostered breaks on the busier night shifts on Tops and Ocean which I enjoy here.
The reality is for those folks going to BN centre is that you will more than likely end up on night shift rich enviroment of Ocean or Tops than the friendly 'climes' of sunny Byron (daylight) radar group.

As for FAID I distinctly recall that nonsense program telling a manager that one of the Tops guys would be less fatigued if he came in for another night shift (third in a row)!

Shitsu_Tonka

26th Nov 2006, 09:37

That quote was just snatched from the other thread on PPrune:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2983661&postcount=10

I dunno why there is a reference to 0.05 BAC though?

AirNoServicesAustralia

26th Nov 2006, 10:04

I guess other than Funk, I must be the only one that found quick turnarounds bloody horrible and the Morning, Doggo same day turnaround, just downright dangerous. Also to go in on a night shift with no scheduled break relief was in my opinion criminal.

Yes Tobzalp, we work 2 nightshifts in a row. We have 17 hours off between our 2 Morning shifts, then 24 hours off between our 2nd morning and first Arvo. Then 16 hours off between our afternoons, and then 24 hours off between our arvo into our night, then 15 hours off between our nightshifts, and then a sleep day and 3 full days off (which is long enough to pop over to Paris or London for a dirty weekend as guys here have been known to do). So bottom line is we get to our first nightshift not fatigued, but rested and ready to go. We then enter our second nightshift with ample opportunity to rest and recover. We then have a nice long break to get over work and still have time left to enjoy ourselves. I would take that over the constant zombie state 10 and 11 hour turnarounds left me in thanks.

But hey, if you guys enjoy that roster, good luck to you. As I said I am just warning the guys going there from O/S cos when I tell the guys here the rosters worked in Oz, they can't believe you do it. Enjoy!

DirtyPierre

26th Nov 2006, 10:55

Hey Funk, you're not one of the three brothers that recently went to ME are you?

ANSA, sounds like you're still got the chip on your shoulder. I reread my post, and it seems that the only condescending bit was where I called you cowboy and I said you might be out of touch. How long since you worked for AsA? Maybe things have changed just a touch since you've been gone, bevan boy.

Canoehead

26th Nov 2006, 21:13

I agree wholeheartedly with ANSA's asessment of the roster. Here in Canada, we work sked's very similar to Australia. A combination of 6/3, 6/4, 6/4 sounds good, but it's usually compressed, leaving you with zero time for family/relationships/partying during your work cycle. Combine that with tons of overtime, (in the busier/more demanding sectors) and we end up working 9/1, YES, that's 9 days of work, one day of rest, then it starts again. Not good for your social life, nor your health! Been doing it for years.

PS: Looking forward to the (relaxed) roster in the sandpit.......

DirtyPierre

26th Nov 2006, 22:23

Combine that with tons of overtime,
Don't have to work the overtime. Plenty of controllers in Oz do not do any ADs (additional duty). Whereas others do every AD offered. Your time outside your core roster is your own. You don't have to do the extra hours.

Jerricho

26th Nov 2006, 23:57

Combine that with tons of overtime, (in the busier/more demanding sectors) and we end up working 9/1, YES, that's 9 days of work, one day of rest, then it starts again

VS

Don't have to work the overtime

*Slight drift*

Something that one or two people I have spoken with back in Blighty can't believe is that you can be scheduled overtime in advance of the roster being published. We work a 56 day roster of which the maximum amount of overtime is 96 hours. Here in the 'Peg, several people have been "timed out" with their overtime allocation before even starting the new 56 day. And before anyone pipes up "Why don't you just turn it back", the response for the rostering people is "It's your's if no one else can take it!"...there is no option.

For the first time in quite a long time this weekend I actually have 3 days off in a row. Of course, the old argument starts you're getting paid good money for it, and that's true, but 9/1 sucks, and as Canoehead says, it ain't good for your health.

tobzalp

27th Nov 2006, 00:45

I don't see the issue with overtime in OZ. I have done maybe 5 in as many years. I have had hundreds more calls for me to go in however. This is Airservices' problem, not mine.

Shitsu_Tonka

27th Nov 2006, 01:24

As I recall, only 1-2 years ago, the Manager of a large centre somewhere in Australia, suggested it was indeed the controllers problem - that their was an expectation not to refuse reasonable overtime. Reasonable overtime was then determined to be one 8 hours shift every fortnight - that is 20+ extra shifts a year.

A further suggestion was implied that refusal could be constituted as illegal industrial action - not sure that this was tested, however I have seen extreme pressure being applied over the phone by some of the prairie dogs to some of the more recent arrivals to get them to come in. The older guys generally "have just taken the top off a coldy sorry (hic)". (At 7am!)

AirNoServicesAustralia

27th Nov 2006, 03:25

Well Dirty Pierre I have to admire your courage and backbone, because it takes a brave man to start name calling on an anonymous forum. Courageous, truly courageous! :ok:

The point I was making was that while yes you can knock back overtime in Australia, you can also take copious amounts, which in the end is to the detriment of your health and life outside of work. The point I was making was that here in the Middle East (and I think in the UK, as our regulations are pretty much copied from the UK CARS), the individual is effectively protected from their own greed, by forcing them to have a minimum of 2 60hr breaks per 30 days, and after 7 shifts, they are forced to have a minimum 60 hours off before they work again.

To the guys going to Australia, even if I haven't worked there for a few years, I have constantly worked with guys leaving there since I left, who say that you will work quick turn around shifts, and you will do the dreaded morning-doggo turnaround, and you will be called constantly to do overtime. If you don't have a problem with 10 or 11 hour turnarounds, and you are quite happy to work-eat-sleep-work-eat-sleep-work then go right ahead, but if you would prefer to work-eat-gym-beer-sleep-work-eat-movie-shag-sleep-work-eat-sport-beer-beer-beer-sleep-work then have good long think about it.

DirtyPierre

27th Nov 2006, 05:01

if you would prefer to work-eat-gym-beer-sleep-work-eat-movie-shag-sleep-work-eat-sport-beer-beer-beer-sleep-work then have good long think about it.

Welcome to my life! Except insert between gym-beer watch sport (football, cricket,etc depending on season), between sleep-work insert go for a surf (9'1" mal sometimes get quite a workout in summer so I've got a new epoxy board from McTavish, Razor model).

Oh and yes, add a few more shags in there.

AirNoServicesAustralia

27th Nov 2006, 05:29

Honestly I can't see how on the FPC roster example you gave, you can have that sort of life. I mean you are at work 3 evenings in a row followed by a quick turnaround onto a morning shift, and then after only two days off you go back to work, and a day later you work a morning doggo turnaround. Sorry but never managed to get a lot of gym beer or shags in with that sort of schedule. I guess its a different perspective on things.

Another reason I left (and I am sure you will tell me this has changed, so feel free) was that I could never acquit all my leave each year, and ended up taking scraps of leave whenever I could be released which was hardly ever. And as far as long service leave goes, forget it. Here every controller has to acquit all of their leave every year, even if that means that leave is covered with overtime. That is, depending on how you take your leave, 3 two week periods of leave, and a one month period of leave, every year guaranteed. As I said I never was able to use the leave I had in Australia, and it just kept building up and up, till I left and it was paid out. I'm sure this has changed now, and thats great if it has, but if it hasn't, then it is another consideration for people considering the move.

As I have said before there are a lot of positives to a move to Oz ATC, but people considering the move also need to be aware of the downside.

DirtyPierre

27th Nov 2006, 05:50

ANSA,

Our current EBA requires you to take 5 weeks leave each year in that year (although you can still accrue it). I'm the Admin specialist in Brissie for my group, and with the other admin specialists we have drawn up a leave allocation plan for 2007. That is, all leave is allocated for staff in every group for 2007 in Brissie already.

Every staff member had to submit their preference for 5 weeks minimum leave for 2007. There is a priority system, and the admin specialists for each group had to have their leave allocation plan in by September which is then approved by the Ops manager. This has been done.

In my group, I have 3 leave lines to work with, and I have 3 troops on leave nearly throughout the entire year. Over Xmas, I can use my Group Training specialist to cover off some leave, and maybe even myself and the Checkie as well. Over this Xmas holiday period I have up to 5 guys off on leave at the same time by doing this.

So things have changed in that regard. Next July I will commence the leave planning for 2008.

As for overtime, reasonable overtime is 1 per month (I think). However, even this amount can be gotten out of if you're canny.

As for my lifestyle. Well I live 50 minutes drive from Main Beach, Southport (top end of the Gold Coast). That's how far away from a half decent surf I am. I could fit a surf in before every arvo shift, my 2 days off, and after my mornings if I want too. My aging body doesn't quite handle that. Some guys live on the GC or Sunshine Coast and commute.

Shags - well still not enough, but coming home after the doggo can be an enjoyable experience (thanks Mrs DP).

Gym at work which we can use during our shift if time permits, but certainly before or after the shift.

Watching sport. Just had the first cricket test of the Ashes. Broncos, Reds, Lions play about 14 home matches a year each. Occasional Test match (league or union). Add the Roar (Brissie soccer team) and we've got football pretty well covered.

Life is pretty good, no wonder I've been in the job since 1983.

Dubya

27th Nov 2006, 05:51

I'm an Oz experienced Air Trafficer with ADC, TWR, APPR, ENR

I approached AsA a short while ago about getting back into the business. Currently I am flying jets with VB. And I never get to see my family because of arduous rosters and endless overnights.
the lady in HR said it was too hard to get an experienced controller back int he system coz I would need to be recruited into enroute, but I have twr endorsements, and then to cross stream involves endless rheems of paperwork and approvals and signatures... I ended the conversation with "It hasn't changed, has it?"... "What?" she asked... "The endless amounts of bs that AsA seems to generate to do anything good for itself".....
Yes, they have phoned me back, and emailed me... and I have yet to decide, but this thread is very interesting...l keep it up...

gidday Goose... you're looking well....:D

bekolblockage

27th Nov 2006, 05:57

Reasonable overtime was then determined to be one 8 hours shift every fortnight
That was indeed the ruling by the IRC back in about '88 when our over-time ban was attempted. The alternative action was of course to cheerfully accept the overtime and then feel quite fatigued later in the fortnight.:E

DirtyPierre

27th Nov 2006, 06:05

The other thing is, if you accept the overtime, then ring in sick, you don't even have to fill in a leave form cause it's not a core rostered shift. It doesn't accrue as sick leave either.

BOK2GO

27th Nov 2006, 10:32

Both my wife and I are App/Twr controllers in Cape Town and have applied for jobs with ASA. We've been following the discussion closely with great interest. Thank you for hi-lighting both the positive and negative of what we're getting ourselves into.

Our move though is crime related and we feel that this is no climate to raise children in. Stats indicate a murder every 22 minutes, a rape every 30 seconds. Let's not talk about the car jacking and house breaks. Enough of that.

We'll follow the discussion closely and again thanks for the topic.

PS. Word of mouth has it that there has been approximately 25 applications from South Africa.

Jerricho

27th Nov 2006, 15:53

if you accept the overtime, then ring in sick

.........and leave your mates short staffed.

AirNoServicesAustralia

27th Nov 2006, 17:37

Well from what I have heard about ATNS management from my Sth African colleagues here in the sandpit, you should be as well prepared for ASA management as anyone. I am guessing you guys should be very attractive to ASA as firstly you have experience on a system basically the same as TAAATS (although are you still using paper strips?), and ASA know that due to the unfortunate situation back home in SA you won't be leaving in a hurry.

I hope it all works out for you, good luck :ok:

aluminium persuader

27th Nov 2006, 18:13

Hey Jerricho

If the situation is that bad I feel that it's management letting the guys down, not the individual. Safety has to be the priority and if you're fatigued you have a responsibility to not work. Trouble is, the person who is too fatigued to work is usually the last person to realise the fact. It is something that needs to be legislated for, or the inevitable result will be an aluminium shower somewhere, sometime. :sad:

Jerricho

27th Nov 2006, 20:41

AP thanks for your thoughts mate :ok:

Let's just say Nav Canada's view on Fatigue and Fatigue Management is a little different to AirServices and NATS.............actually it's a whole lot different. You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

Quokka

28th Nov 2006, 02:18

tusitala

28th Nov 2006, 04:53

BlueSkye

28th Nov 2006, 06:03

ATNS to ASA application form:
Rating - check;
Validation - check;
Work experience - check;
Eurocat X - check;
Potplant management experience - CHECK;
Work to death experience - check;
Nice weather - check;
RHD cars - check;
Control for charity - check (should be no cheque);
George Greegan fan - hmmmm;
Damn fine sheilas - Fixed by Fosters;
Speak funny - in a different way, so check;
Barbie - toy by Mattel, also check.

Ready GOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

5miles

28th Nov 2006, 06:45

ANSA... you are 100% correct!
Pierre... in Melbourne it seems that the ATCs who don't accept overtime become targets... unless that controller happens to be a friend of the Operations Manager in question... as one of the outsiders-looking-in told me a few months ago... you don't want to go to the Centres, unless you belong to one of the social cliques.

What a load of cr*p. Never felt pressured into accepting overtime except out of my concern for my colleagues. Nothing to do with management overlords.
Those that invariably say no have there own reasons, and none from the groups that I've worked with felt victimised. Besides, with 3 Ops Mngrs this year alone, they don't have time to form targets.

As for social cliques, no different to any other workplace. There's a few tossers and holier than thous, but far outweighed by average Tom & Harrys (No Dicks allowed). If you're into football, racing, sporting aviation, golf or whatever, you'll find some with common interests. :ok:

On another matter - weren't Australian ATC's going to go over to South Africa a couple of years ago? Looks like thre traffic will all be the other way now!?

Yes. The option of seconding Oz staff to S.A. was considered a few years ago. Even put my own hand up if Cape Town was the destination. Going on BOK2GO' s post, looks like even that part of S.A. isn't safe anymore. I heard the transfers were canned because Ozzies were going to be too expensive.

SM4 Pirate

28th Nov 2006, 08:26

not sure who is running recruitment for air services, but have had application in for sometime. Have residency and tower rating, but still waiting. Keep being moved around. If they are short, it is no wonder, because they seem to be so slow in dealing with people. 8-9 weeks for responses, after that has passed, you contact them to be informed application misplaced!! :ugh: :ugh: If there is one thing I have learnt in the last decade; keep bloody haselling them... Don't assume they haven't cocked it up; Consipracy or cock-up I'll take cock-up 6/4 on.

The Recruiting is done by "People and Change" which is the greatest irony; no good dealing with people (fullstop) and couldn't get a shag in a Solomons Island knock shop with a governement issued credit card; when it comes to change (They are not cardboard cut-outs...)

BurglarsDog

28th Nov 2006, 10:17

Some say that first impressions count. I havent worked for ASA but my experience of the company is as follows;

The ASA recruitment website curently requests expressions of interest for short / long term contract work involved with teaching ICAO procedures to International students. Having been doing this both east and west of Brissy recently I thought great and duly fired off details etc. Background research / homework reveiled that ASA had been to DFS (been there done that) in Frankfurt looking at a joint venture; targeting markets in India / China. So I was hopefull of at least a reply. But Nada! Not even a Dear John or thanks for the details etc etc. So I called and was answered by HR who couldnt tell me anything about either the project , timings or anything ATC related! Very negative experience! Through mates working within ASA I tracked down the team leader only to be told the same !! No feedback no encouragement nothing. By comparison when applying to the UK for a similar consultancy position the company came back immediately with questions of me and answers to my queries. I appreciate that deals have to be signed off before a carrot can be dangled, but when a resource is offered in reply to an Ad, you would expect a little more interest - after all, they placed the advertisment. I discussed this with a colleague, (reasonable bloke) ex ASA ,now doing very well (IFATCA briefings etc) in Europe and to quote him " ASA are a pr*ck of an employer. They have absolutely no regard for their employees and they cultivate an atmosphere of mutual mistrust and antagonism between workers and managers. - But perhaps that was a one off experience. Still like em to be a bit more proactive when potential 6 figure staff are offering their services though.:sad:

DogGone

TrafficTraffic

28th Nov 2006, 11:01

Overtime is just that - time over and above your restored requirements - if you are not up to it - dont do it.

Interesting to read about AsA pressuring people into doing OT - never heard of it - doesnt mean it doesnt happen - just havent heard of it.

How about a good Eurocontrol story about pressure and ridiculous rules.

Not too long ago when there was discomfort at the station cos the word had passed around - there was to be no pay increase and there even existed the possibilty of a pay reduction (gasp).

The Union decided on a step by step plan to escalate industrial action the first being a work-to-rule* (*now the rules were going to be acceptance of traffic and working to the 'safe' specified traffic levels - which EDYY never did - always took more and more and more and still do thus by working to the rules, would be causing massive delays).......now management seized upon this and said that if you were to work contrary to how how you normally work you would be breaking Eu employement laws.....the analogy that I normally drive 20 km/h above the speed limit then decided to reduce to the speed limit and therefore break the law when driving at the speed limit.

I am a little amazed at how people come out of the woodwork with bad things to say about working in Aus but they either havent worked here for a while - left with an axe to grind - or get their info 3rd hand.

AsA isnt perfect - when somebody finds the perfect job - please post here first by all means.
:ok:

TT

AirNoServicesAustralia

28th Nov 2006, 12:07

TT, I think you'll find by doing a search on here, people haven't just come out of the woodwork. To simplify things maybe a positives versus negatives will help people decide whether it is axe grinding or real problems within the organisation.

Positives - by average Australian standards, a good salary
- Good facilities at the workplace
- Modern equipment to work with.
- A high standard of training
- A good superannuation scheme
- In a country offering a great lifestyle.

Negatives - By International standards, not a great salary
- The way controllers are treated in reponse to things such as coordination failures. In Australia, stood down, in most other places, logged and later counselled to avoid it happening again (maybe if serious enough error, otherwise just logged).
- 10 and 11 hour turnarounds on rosters and particularly Morning-Doggo turnarounds is far from everyones cup of tea.
- Rising cost of living, especially cost of housing.
- High taxes.
- Managers out of touch with the coalface controllers (but to be fair ASA is not the lone ranger on that one).
- Lack of career furthering opportunities to people considered "just" a controller, whereas those who stay away from the console doing anything other than controlling traffic get all the opportunities.

BOK2GO

28th Nov 2006, 12:50

Cape Town transitions to paperless at the end of the year although the Joburg and Cape Town have been working stripless unofficially due to staff shortages (not enough ATSA's). With deadwood now having moved out of senior management the whole country should be paperless in the next six months.
As far as the rest of ATNS management, things have and are improving and I think we could do a lot worse. Cpt is well staffed and we seldom work more than 30 hours a week. Sounds like the holiday might be over once we get to Oz.

TrafficTraffic

28th Nov 2006, 20:30

Some excellent points ANSA some I agree with others I am not so sure and some are applicable most places rising cost of living especially housing
As I said I dont think AsA is perfect - but then where is?
My main question for anybody that was thinking of joining would be what is AsA's motivation? After a round of job reductions in Non-operational areas it was suggested that the ATCs and other operational staff were the next to go through a rationalization process and now we are looking at recruiting from overseas - doesnt make any sense.
TT

DirtyPierre

28th Nov 2006, 21:41

when somebody finds the perfect job - please post here first by all means.

When studying at University I worked in school holidays as a Beach Inspector (lifeguard) on the Gold Coast. Got paid to sit on the beach (and do the ocassional rescue). Seemed near perfect at the time.

SM4 Pirate

28th Nov 2006, 22:51

My main question for anybody that was thinking of joining would be what is AsA's motivation? After a round of job reductions in Non-operational areas it was suggested that the ATCs and other operational staff were the next to go through a rationalization process and now we are looking at recruiting from overseas - doesnt make any sense.
TTThe GM of ATS was given the mantra to reduce numbers by 200 when all the ADMIN staff were getting the bone. He said, yes he would, did nothing, then slowly and subtly let projects get going (such as genesis, SDE, ADS-B etc.) all with the backing of the CEO, then slowly the message went higher that this project stuff doesn't have legs due to low ATC staff numbers.

But we are making still making cutbacks in ATC, just ask the lads/gals in Sydney about the coffee club; saving the big dollars $1K per annum at a time. (2 Deliberate sick days, not that that would ever happen :\, = the total amount of money spent on coffee and tea in the whole year. :D :D Managing the big issues there, nice work, NOT!)

5miles

28th Nov 2006, 23:19

But we are making still making cutbacks in ATC, just ask the lads/gals in Sydney about the coffee club; saving the big dollars $1K per annum at a time. (2 Deliberate sick days, not that that would ever happen :\, = the total amount of money spent on coffee and tea in the whole year. :D :D Managing the big issues there, nice work, NOT!)

Don't know the full details of this Sydney Coffee saga, but the rumour mill had me wondering why Sydney is a special case if other units/centres have to fund there own beverages???
:confused:

Quokka

29th Nov 2006, 01:17

What a load of cr*p. Never felt pressured into accepting overtime except out of my concern for my colleagues. Nothing to do with management overlords.

As for social cliques, no different to any other workplace.

5miles... only get my info on the Centres secondhand.

Is it no longer the case that controllers cop a formal interview when their total amount of overtime accepted over the year is particularly low? Is it true that one controller received a series of formal interviews in regard to his availability for overtime? Don't know how old the information is and it could no longer be the norm.

As for social cliques... yes, there is no difference to any other large workplace environment... but there is a palpable difference in culture between the Centres and the remote TCU/Towers.

DirtyPierre

29th Nov 2006, 04:32

Is it no longer the case that controllers cop a formal interview when their total amount of overtime accepted over the year is particularly low? Is it true that one controller received a series of formal interviews in regard to his availability for overtime?

Never heard of this happening.

One controller in Moreton Group (BN/CG APP) never, and I mean never, accepts ADs. We have controllers in other groups that have done less than 5 ADs in as many years.

5miles

29th Nov 2006, 04:54

Is it true that one controller received a series of formal interviews in regard to his availability for overtime? Don't know how old the information is and it could no longer be the norm.

Even if this was true, then the experience of one controller out of hundreds could hardly be considered the norm. :ugh:

tonto papadopolous

29th Nov 2006, 08:01

As somebody who has worked in Oz and elsewhere, I'll pass on a few tips for prospective employees, without all the crap everybody else is going on with.

Firstly, register with ASA's recruitment section. Then identify the location and the manger of the unit you want to go to, and then apply for a job thru them. I had applied for 6 months with the recruitment section but heard nothing. Within 24 hours of touching base with the managers in Bris and Melb, I had 2 job offers. Be careful where you apply to go, because transfers between locations in ASA are almost unheard of. The managers guard their staff numbers like their first born.

Secondly, the money is adequate for an upper-middle class lifestyle. You wont get rich, and you wont starve. The government will tax you like you wouldn't believe, and still expect you to pay for things you thought were government provided. You can supplement your income by doing overtime, but that will be taxed at roughly 40%. All said and done, you should have enough money unless you have 2 wives and 8 kids. There is an outstanding retirement fund. Leave is generally good.

Thirdly, work conditions are good. The traffic levels are moderate and it is more about discerning who gets what service and implementing quirky rules. The only time it gets really busy is when there are thunderstorms. Apart from a couple of sectors, radar control is a qasi-procedural control with the radar used to supplement situational awareness. It is frowned upon to use your knowledge and judgement too much in the radar environment. Some may say that there is a heavy handed approach to performance management. There is a tendency to squash all the shifts into a short amount of time, which suits some and not others. The union is strong and the fees reflect this, but to be fair the fees do include loss of licence insurance.

The outdoor lifestyle here is second to none. Even in the cooler climates, there is plenty to do outdoors. However if you are from Britain and Europe you will not be able to experience the same pub or cafe culture and sense of community in Oz unless you move to a small country town or right in to the heart of the inner-city. Over 90% of the population lives in vast tracts of mundane suburbia, the type that inavariably ends up located close to airports and ATC centres.

Come to Oz if you crave the outdoor lifestyle, or have a partner who is from Oz and wants to return, or if you come from a country in which you no longer want your kids to grow up in.
Dont come to Oz if you are looking to enhance your career, cant put up with half-wit managers or just because you reckon it'll be just like Neighbours.

tobzalp

29th Nov 2006, 08:06

That just about sums it up tonto.

TrafficTraffic

29th Nov 2006, 08:48

I agree - pretty accurate.

Not too sure about the Neighbours part though.

What ever happened to Bouncer?

TT

Shitsu_Tonka

29th Nov 2006, 08:53

Tonto has summarised the reasons those elsewhere will come, as well as the reasons those who are here will want to leave to go elsewhere.

The differential is probably time - and the perspective that provides/alters.

LapSap

29th Nov 2006, 14:23

All said and done, you should have enough money unless you have 2 wives and 8 kids.

I guess that rules out most of the ex ASA guys here then. :}

Jerricho

29th Nov 2006, 14:37

Piss off.
It's the bonus driven lunatics who cut back the asylum numbers in the first place who let the side down. Don't pin it on the eyes-hanging-out-of-their-heads controllers who just need a day off to avoid falling asleep driving to work on yet another day off.

Heh. Go and re-read that post in the context it's been posted Mr Potty-mouth.

You accept an overtime in advance, then call in sick for it on the day.......YOU have put the hole in the schedule that has to be filled again (and we could start a tangent discussion regarding would some managers do a callout/can they do a call out). You don't accept the shift in advance, somebody else probably will. :rolleyes:

Try and keep up Coral

SM4 Pirate

29th Nov 2006, 22:59

Don't know the full details of this Sydney Coffee saga, but the rumour mill had me wondering why Sydney is a special case if other units/centres have to fund there own beverages???
:confused: We used to get free beverages everywhere; up until the early 90's maybe late 80's we still had tea lady's... Ahh the memories.

Sydney for whatever reason didn't develop it's own tea club (effectively BN and ML were forced to) and the management paid for the drinks; like at most TCUs, Towers etc; and most other ASA locations.

It's not that we have to pay now for a cuppa in Sydney, it's just the principle of the matter, and the fact that the free cuppa was withdrawn "at the direction" of upper management; when in fact the upper management couldn't give two hoots about it; the manager who supposedly passed the direction to the new TCU manager has openly admitted he did no such thing; he's far more concerned with the big picture.:= :=

It's not just that the decision is dumb (it is); it's the justification and sales pitch to 'sell the decision' which is dumber; but hey when you're riding a contract with 23% at risk (or more) you'll do what you can to get it. Even if this will be far more costly than the entire tea club costs 5 times over; that won't be noticed as a direct correlation as it's a different bucket.

BOK2GO

1st Dec 2006, 04:15

Thank you Tonto for that. You've summed it up nicely for me and it looks like most agree.
I may just be playing devil's advocate but more staff being hired probably equals less overtime to the the rest = a good thing.
I might have missed it earlier in the thread but surely amount of hours worked is governed firstly by a Labour Relations Act and secondly by the Australian Civil Aviation Authority which is equal to or better than the prescribed hours? Only with special permission from the Commissioner are we allowed to work more than 20 out of 28 days. For those arrhythimically challenged it works out to two days a week off.
Oh and seriously, having to pay for one's own beverages is not a good enough reason not to come although that does suck.

Shitsu_Tonka

1st Dec 2006, 05:05

BOK,

On both your points - no problem: we are the lucky country!

The government eliminated any fairness in the workplace with a 1500 page decree designed to placate the lobby groups for industry. It's an employers paradise! No Labour relations act to worry about.

And no need to worry about pesky limitations on hours on duty - we don't have any. CASA have even sent correspondence saying it is Airservices responsibility.

Conflict of interest? - Apparently not.

When asking about the maximum hours that can be worked at a console without a break you might get an interesting reply. (Technically there is no limit)

BOK2GO

1st Dec 2006, 06:58

Geez, thanks for that. It seems as if ATNS and the SA Goverment could teach your AsA a thing or two. I'm sure ICAO have reccomended laid down procedure for this sort of thing????
One would've thought that by now employers have figured out that when you can't compete on a salary basis then you offer better working conditions as in time off, free tea and coffee, etc, etc.....
There are more ways to retain your staff than to just pay them more.
The Joburg guys are going to shoot me down......

Dct no speed

1st Dec 2006, 18:58

Hi all,

Been a while. Sipping a KWV while reading Bok2go(we met at the Vaal in 2000) last post made me think..........naaaaaaaaaaaa happy where I am, in the Sand at the moment,watching the 7's seeing the Ausies loose to Portugal!!!!

Like Lap Sap said the grass always "looks" greener, but let me tell you, the land of sand ain't half bad! BOK2Go come visit us here in the Sandpit, we might even have a place for A guy and Girl from Cape Town here.

PS :No one has tried to Hi jack,rape or rob me yet ! Not even the Sa government! :D

AirNoServicesAustralia

1st Dec 2006, 19:32

Jeez Dct No Speed, how long you been in the sandpit and you say, No one has tried to Hi jack,rape or rob me yet

You're obviously not going to the right bars :E There are certain Russian and African ladies around town that will do all three at once, and you'll like it. Or so I hear :rolleyes:

But have to agree with you that the sand pit is certainly worth strong consideration. Especially when you weigh it up against the taxes that you will pay in Oz. Big downside here though I guess is that if you are after a different passport to your SA one for the future, you won't get one here no matter how long you stay.

jumpuFOKKERjump

1st Dec 2006, 23:43

One would've thought that by now employers have figured out that when you can't compete on a salary basis then you offer better working conditions as in time off, free tea and coffee, etc, etc..... All units I have worked in here have had brew clubs. Queries to the older workmates gave me the impression it was withdrawn due wholesale pilfering.

TANSTAAFL:}

BOK2GO

2nd Dec 2006, 07:04

Just re your tax post, we here are also paying around the 40% mark. The difference is here we don't get anything for it. We have to pay for our own security, very few households don't have armed response, any semi-decent public school is going to cost you an arm and a leg, University is out of the question, unless you're prepared to morgage your house or have a lot of savings put aside for it, bursaries are non existent unless you're previously disadvantaged. Public hospitals are a no-go-zone. They're dirty, do not have sufficient staff and even less medication. Hell, one of our provinces can't account for 18 billion rand of their budget. There are only 4 million tax payers carrying 48 million people.
So what's my point???? besides that I get nothing for my hard earned tax money????
Well, I've been to Oz. My family lives around Perth and things work there. Public area's are clean, you have a efficient police force, your State hospitals are in much better shape, your infrastructure works. Hell, for someone paying around the same amount of tax it seems like a bargain to me.

Someone PLEASE stamp this VISA.....

BOK2GO

2nd Dec 2006, 07:48

I'm racking my brain but no name or face is coming to mind...??

pogmothoin

5th Dec 2006, 08:08

anyone out there able to let me know what a... say tower roster in melbourne would be like ?? shift times etc??? :D

aviation85

5th Dec 2006, 08:38

I hear several kiwis are interested... and they are more short staffed than australia

Shitsu_Tonka

5th Dec 2006, 22:30

Dunno bout Tower - here is a centre/tma roster 5 week example:

(add another 2 shifts on overtime somewhere - that is considered 'reasonable' and expected. ) That would leave you about 11 days off out of the 35. There are 5 night shifts (double shift - morning/doggo) over the 5 weeks period. Some are better, some are worse.

S OFF
S 1300-2100
M 0700-1500
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
W -
T OFF
F OFF
S 0700-1500
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
M -
T OFF
W OFF
T 1130-1930
F 1500-2300
S 1300-2100
S 1500-2300
M OFF
T OFF
W 0630-1400
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
F -
S OFF
S OFF
M 1300-2100
T 1130-1930
W 0600-1400
T OFF
F OFF
S 1130-1930
S 0630-1430
M 0530-1200/2230-0600
T -
W OFF
T OFF
F 0630-1430
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
S -

NIMFLT

6th Dec 2006, 01:39

****su,

Are the two extra shifts of overtime to cover sickness or because there are not enough people to cover the roster. How much notice do you normally get. Other posters have suggested that extra duty is routinely knocked back without penalty. Any further info on this would be appreciated.

Nimflt

5miles

6th Dec 2006, 06:02

Are the two extra shifts of overtime to cover sickness or because there are not enough people to cover the roster.

Could be either, or for a myriad of other reasons.
Some groups constantly run short staffed so may need to cover a line or two with additional duty. Others only required due sickness or when staff pulled off an opertional line for other duties.

How much notice do you normally get.
Anywhere from a few minutes (get here ASAP) to a few weeks.

Other posters have suggested that extra duty is routinely knocked back without penalty. Any further info on this would be appreciated.

That's correct. Not sure what sort of further info you're fishing for here. :confused:

desertrose

6th Dec 2006, 06:31

How busy are the nightshifts? I have worked enough morning/nightshift duties on the same day to know it is not a pleasure!

Shitsu_Tonka

6th Dec 2006, 07:59

The 'reasonable overtime' requirement stemmed from an Industrial Relations decision:
Transcript of Decision (http://www.civilair.asn.au/bulletins/otherdocs/rotd.pdf)
One (de-identified) legal interpretation of the current ruling:

In relation to the vexed issue of “reasonable overtime” I reproduce the ‘model clause’ that the Australian Industrial Relations Commission endorsed in its Working Hours Test Case (or “Reasonable Hours” case) (2002) 651 AILR 4-648.
“1.1 Subject to clause 1.2 an employer may require an employee to work reasonable overtime at overtime rates.
1.2 An employee may refuse to work overtime in circumstances where the working of such overtime would result in the employee working hours which are unreasonable having regard to:
1.2.1 any risk to employee health and safety;
1.2.2 the employee's personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
1.2.3 the needs of the workplace or enterprise;
1.2.4 the notice (if any) given by the employer of the overtime and by the employee of his or her intention to refuse it; and
1.2.5 any other relevant matter.”
This is the clause that the Full Bench endorsed for inclusion in Awards, thus it is a safety net clause and could be described as a current community standard.
This clause has been on the table during the Certified Agreement negotiations. Airservices are willing to include the clause with the exception of the word “refuse”. They proposed alternative words and these were still the subject of discussion when the negotiations were suspended.
In the Reasonable Hours decision, the Commission limited any concept of "reasonableness" with respect to hours of work to a combination of ordinary plus overtime hours. They rejected the notion that ordinary hours may, in cases, be unreasonable. As such the Commission rejected the ACTU application to prohibit the employer requiring an employee to work unreasonable hours of work. In addition the Commission rejected a proposition that, where employees are required to work extreme hours they should be provided with additional time off to recover from that work.
We have a situation where the model clause referred to above has not yet been expressly incorporated into the terms and conditions of employment for Airservices employees, although this is our intention, and it should not be problematic given the Full Bench authority on this matter.
The doctrine of precedent does not strictly apply in industrial proceedings – but consistency of decision making is necessary to ensure the authority of tribunals and uniformity of wages and conditions- therefore, individual members of the Commission treat earlier decisions as highly persuasive. The Commissioner Sheather decision of 1989 was a decision specific to the employment of air traffic controllers. It predates the development of the current Fatigue Management knowledge. I accept that the decision is 15 years old, however, until it is appealed, challenged, overturned or a new standard is established in the Certified Agreement (our intention) it remains a relevant decision for the purposes of this matter.

--------

As far as how busy nights shifts are, well that is pretty subjective - if you have worked in the Middle East I would suggest the night shifts are relatively quiet - unless you are working the big procedural sectors which by nature of the time zone change are their busiest time of day in some cases at 2300-0400 local.

------

Why is there a lot of overtime? Staffing levels have been inadequate - the recruitment program that this thread is based upon is recognition of that to some degree. Also, ATC as a career is not as attractive to Australia graduates any more as much better long term remuneration prospects are available now - with more sociable hours, as well as the competition from some 'progressive' employers. For example Graduates (early 20's) who succeed in employment in Investment Banking start at around 70-75K.

NIMFLT

7th Dec 2006, 02:17

That's correct. Not sure what sort of further info you're fishing for here. :confused:
This is what I wanted. Thanks. My days off are pretty busy with family and I wouldn't want to be in a position where I felt my refusal of extra duties would harm job security. I guess it all comes down to the Ops manager and how good a manager they are. 1.85 for a day off isn't a great incentive unless your mortgage is out of control.
thanks.

aluminium persuader

7th Dec 2006, 09:48

I noticed that the challenger (?) crash investigation in the States is eyeing the split-shift as a possible contributary cause (yes, I know it's not technically a split-shift but it's in to work twice on the same day). The controller apparently did an early and was back in for the doggo without managing to get any sleep in between. What do you guys think of the split-shift? Does it affect your performance? Is there any move to ditch it?

ap

AirNoServicesAustralia

7th Dec 2006, 12:42

Just my personal opinion but I think the morning-night shift turn around came into being because the traffic levels dictated that you spoke to bugger all aircraft and slept most of the night, meaning that fatigue wasn't a problem. Problem was that on Bight Group in Melbourne and Tops in Brisbane they work their butts off on night shifts. And I know many things have changed since I have been gone but you can bet your bottom dollar that a large proportion of new recruits will be sent to those groups, so the issue of Morning-Doggo turnarounds is certainly an important thing to consider for any new joiners.

Personally having lived that life of quick turnarounds, and experienced a different life where I get a minimum of 15 hours off between shifts, I can't see myself going back to a roster that is worked in Oz. That of course is just my personal feeling and I may not at the end of the day have a choice, but morning-doggos (and any other turnarounds of 10 or 11 hours) to me are a form of slow very painful torture. As someone said though, they think our roster of M,M (0730-1430),A,A (1430-2230), N,N (1030-0730), Sleep day, 3 days off is horrible, so I guess it is all personal opinion. Each to their own.

Knackers

7th Dec 2006, 22:36

Heard from a reliable source yesterday that AsA had received 70 applications, several of which were expats, one from Italy and many from Sth Africa. There are 33 vacancies immediately available to fill.

Recent ab initio course graduated just 3 controllers! There must be something very wrong with the selection, training or, in these times of full employment, the available pool of talent.

Shitsu_Tonka

7th Dec 2006, 23:58

There must be something very wrong with the selection, training or, in these times of full employment, the available pool of talent.

..or the alternatives out there for the calibre of people required perhaps?

ollie_a

8th Dec 2006, 01:48

Recent ab initio course graduated just 3 controllers!

Not sure which course you are referring to. The last course through the college and the one about to leave have certainly graduated more than this. There was an earlier course that had a high failure rate but I understand this was at least partly due to personality conflicts.

tobzalp

8th Dec 2006, 04:29

..or the alternatives out there for the calibre of people required perhaps?

Plus they no longer pay TA. Worth a lot of bickies. I was on the last course to get it. Was like a pay cut when I got to the centre even though I technically got paid nearly double base pay.

aluminium persuader

8th Dec 2006, 18:55

Thanks ANSA. It's a difficult call I agree to put one system in for all places. In my present post I get a fairly obscene amount of time off, although a lot of it is by chance, and not rostered. Trouble is, for the most part there just isn't the traffic to keep it interesting. I've been at work sometimes for a whole shift & spoken to just one aircraft! I do think that a minimun 12hrs between shifts is a good guide, though. Especially if the minute you're in from work you're set upon by vicious ankle-biters!:{

desertrose

9th Dec 2006, 12:25

How does the traffic levels in Australia compair with the traffic levels in the UAE?:confused:

AirNoServicesAustralia

9th Dec 2006, 16:38

Sorry not allowed to answer that, cos I'll be accused of making this a "mine's bigger than yours argument". Sorry :oh:

Dct no speed

9th Dec 2006, 19:40

Okay then don't give the size, just is the Ausie's one bigger or smaller? :p

AirNoServicesAustralia

10th Dec 2006, 10:48

To be fair you can't really compare apples with oranges. Australia has a lot of unique factors that can make things interesting even if traffic levels aren't as high as what we are used to here. For one most of the country has no or very limited radar coverage. Secondly the ATC system used is very labour intensive, and whilst it has its advantages over the steam driven systems we use here, it needs to be "fed" a lot more stuff than here. Finally, there is a different culture there when it comes to incidents, so guys have to be a lot more careful about how they do things and what they say, than they do here. Here, basically if you retain separation at all times you're sweet. In Australia there is a myriad of reasons why you can get stood down from duty, so you are more on edge because of that reason.

I think if you do a search through this thread and other related ones you will find references to actual traffic figures. So you can decide for yourself what the answer to your question is. As I said if I answer it as I have in the past I will be the bad guy again. :=

desertrose

10th Dec 2006, 18:40

Thanx for that ANSA!

BOK2GO

11th Dec 2006, 05:34

I hear in Oz you have to voice coordinate each flight crossing a sector boundary. Is this correct?

5miles

11th Dec 2006, 06:25

I hear in Oz you have to voice coordinate each flight crossing a sector boundary. Is this correct?

Most flights Yes. Many sectors have designated non-coordination routes, but the majority require voice coord in at least one direction.

As for volume of traffic... that's always been a fairly useless indication of workload.
How many sectors handle that traffic?
What's the traffic mix like?
What ancillary services are required of the controller?
Do they have an assistant?
Is flight data processed automatically or manually?
What separation standards/traffic information parameters are applicable to the volume of airspace?
What constraints are placed on traffic management by noise abatement/curfew requirements?

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc............. :rolleyes:

AirNoServicesAustralia

11th Dec 2006, 08:03

Desert Rose and the rest wondering about going to Oz from the UAE, the best I can offer is that guys returning from here to Oz certainly haven't had any trouble with the workload.

Not a mine is bigger than yours exercise so chill out everyone but the following info is to help the guys in Dubai know what to expect.

October 2006 Sydney had an average of 781 movements a day, whilst Dubai had about 850 movements a day.

To use 5 Miles' other factor list, mix of traffic for Sydney, according to Airservices Stats, about 550-600 per day are jets, and 250 are props. Dubai would be weighted more towards jets, but about 15-20% of those jets are Russian crap boxes (TU154's, IL76's etc) and then there are lots of AN-12's, F50's, B-1900's, and F27's, so a pretty varied traffic mix, with extremely varied pilot abilities and english capabilities.

Sydney has 3 runways, whilst Dubai has one runway (although hopefully before hell freezes over we may have 2 again). Dubai is open 24 hours a day (except when it is closed for runway de-rubbering (not sure thats a word??) as it has been for a couple of hours a day recently), whilst Sydney is closed for 7 hours every night due to a noise abatement curfew.

Sydney has a lot of retrictions placed on their operations due to noise abatement procedures which Dubai doesn't have to contend with.

Dubai does of course have UAE ACC providing a perfect 20 NM spacing between the aircraft during busy periods and 15 NM at all other times, so that is a consideration for you. :E

Number of sectors I can't answer for Sydney, and as far as Dubai is concerned I can only go on my best guess, that being, one Arrivals sector, one Departures sector, one Coordinator sector, and one Director sector (during busy times), and I think sometimes a Minhad sector to "control" the military. Dubai guys can correct me on that one I'm sure.

Sydney is a lot more automated with a flow system in place that hopefully means the intervention needed by the approach controllers is kept to a minimum to achieve the sequence (well that was the plan with Maestro, whether that is the case I'm not sure). Dubai for all intense and purposes has no flow system, with the approach guys getting aircraft in the same gate spaced at the required spacing but no sequencing of traffic from the 3 different gates, so the approach controllers in Dubai do a lot of intervention to achieve the sequence.

Dubai controllers have assistants to pass estimates and distribute strips. I am assuming like the rest of Oz, Sydney controllers do not.

I am again assuming Sydney Approach can run 3 NM's. Dubai Approach can only use 3 NM when director is open and aircraft are with the director (and there may be other restrictions), otherwise the separation standard is 5 NM's.

As has been said previously, controllers handle whatever traffic they have to handle. The point of this post is the guys from Dubai (and UAE ACC for that matter) who are seriously considering a move to Australia, want to know what traffic levels to expect. I hope this post helps them out with that.

desertrose

11th Dec 2006, 19:41

:) Thanx ANSA, this is very helpful info!

Kinobe

14th Dec 2006, 15:00

Hello. I'm a new member in this forum and basically the reason was this thread.
I'm a mil ATC in navy helicopter base in Athens Greece.
The last 4 months i have aplied in many countries for an ATC job.
I thought Australia is a good chance and i'm thinking about it since they replied me.
The reason for posting is just to hear new ideas even though i know this issue is personal.
I get about 1.350 euros per month (navy...), i'm single and i would have no problem moving in another country.
What do you think?
P.S. Also any info about how to apply for job in Dubai?

Shitsu_Tonka

20th Dec 2006, 00:54

related:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3028866&posted=1#post3028866

despot

22nd Dec 2006, 01:54

They only offered me 55k/annum when I put an application in a year ago, cheap bastards.

Knackers

23rd Dec 2006, 02:15

Latest Civil Air newsletter reports:

"He stressed that there is now recognition by Airservices that there is a staff shortage problem; Greg Russell acknowledged this two weeks ago. Airservices have received 156 applications from the Global ATC search and they had 100 applicants on the website."

japanac

27th Dec 2006, 12:51

· salary during training will be between $A65-70,000
· salary upon completion of training will be between $A70-100K plus depending on the proven skills and experience, and will be determined on an individual basis.
:ugh: Could you tell me if this amount 70-100K is netto or not.

SINGAPURCANAC

27th Dec 2006, 20:34

At first Happy holidays!
I would like to ask for more information, actually I will extend previous question posted by Japanac! Is anybody able to explain precisely how much money will stay in pocket after all taxes, social payments and health insurance? I Simple answer such as : Salary is between 55 and 70k$ but after all it will be in your pocket________$ . Also we would like to know is there any change in relation between brut and net salary after license validation?
Best regards to JAPANAC!
I know who you are!

Albizia

27th Dec 2006, 22:09

$55k per year =$42640 in your hand

$70k per year =$52300 in your hand

$100k per year =$69450 in you hand

Current top increment about $129k =$84820 in your hand (as of mid Jan 07)

These tax rates include medicare levy which is free(ish) care in the public health system, most people take out private health cover as well which adds between $1-2k per year as the publis isn't great.

http://calculators.ato.gov.au/scripts/asp/simpletaxcalc/Summary.asp explains it all.

On top of this salary you could add $1-2K for public holidays (depending on how many you work) and probably anywhere between 0-15K for overtime depending on how much you like being at work and where you are.

Once rated (validated) your salary will increase to whatever you and ASA have negotiated your pay level will be. Somewhere between $77397 (level 2) to $118395 (Level 10 Cat D tower), $122558 (Level 11 Cat C Tower), $129736 (Level 13 Cat B Tower), all stop here, including en route. If at Sydney, continues to $139723.

You won't be rich but you will be comfortable on these salaries in most parts of Australia and can live very well.

2 Dogs

28th Dec 2006, 12:41

I Have heard mention of "salary sacrifice". Can somebody explain how it works ?

SM4 Pirate

29th Dec 2006, 00:01

What is a salary sacrifice arrangement?
A salary sacrifice arrangement is also commonly referred to as salary packaging or total remuneration packaging. It is an arrangement between an employer and an employee, whereby the employee agrees to forgo part of their future entitlement to salary or wages in return for the employer providing them with benefits of a similar cost (to the employer). The employee is likely to place greater value on the benefit than its cost to the employer.
The arrangement should be entered into before you perform the work
If the arrangement is put into place after the work has been performed, the salary sacrifice arrangement may be ineffective.
There should be an agreement between you and your employer
It is advisable that you and your employer clearly state and agree on all the terms of any salary sacrifice arrangement. If you enter into an undocumented salary sacrifice arrangement, you may have difficulty establishing the facts of your agreement. Subject to the terms of any contract of employment or industrial agreement, employees can renegotiate a salary sacrifice arrangement at any time. Where you have a renewable contract, you can renegotiate amounts of salary or wages to be sacrificed before the start of each renewal.
The contract of employment includes details of your remuneration, including any salary sacrifice arrangement. This contract can be varied by agreement between you and the employer.
There should be no access to the sacrificed salary
The sacrificed salary must be permanently forgone for the period of the arrangement. If a fringe benefit that has not been provided is cashed out at the end of a salary sacrifice arrangement accounting period, the amount cashed out is salary and is taxed as normal income.
What types of benefits can be included?
There is no restriction on the types of benefits that can be sacrificed. The important thing is that these benefits form part of your remuneration, replacing what otherwise could have been paid as salary. The types of benefits generally provided in salary sacrifice arrangements by employers include fringe benefits, exempt benefits and superannuation.
Fringe benefits
Common fringe benefits include:
cars
property (including goods, real property such as land and buildings, and shares or bonds), and expense payments (such as the payment of your loan repayments, school fees, child care costs and home phone costs).
Exempt benefits
A number of benefits are exempt from FBT. Expense payment, property or residual benefits arising for the following items commonly provided in salary sacrifice arrangements are exempt benefits.
A notebook computer, laptop computer or similar portable computer. The exemption for portable computers is limited to the purchase or reimbursement of one computer per year per employee.
A mobile phone or car phone that is primarily for use in your employment.
Superannuation
Salary sacrificed superannuation contributions under an effective salary sacrifice arrangement are considered to be employer contributions which, when paid in respect of an employee to a complying superannuation fund, are not fringe benefits.
However, superannuation contributions made for an associate, such as your spouse, are a fringe benefit. Similarly, contributions paid to a non-complying superannuation fund will be a fringe benefit.
What are the implications of entering into an arrangement?
As an employee you need to be aware how entering into a salary sacrifice arrangement with your employer will affect you. Under an effective arrangement:
you pay income tax on the reduced salary or wages
your employer may be liable to pay FBT on the fringe benefits provided
salary sacrificed superannuation contributions are classified as employer superannuation contributions (rather than employee contributions) and are taxed in the superannuation fund under tax laws dealing specifically with this subject
your employer may be required to report certain benefits on your payment summary following information may provide you with some guidance.

Another Number

29th Dec 2006, 04:58

Having spent plenty of time in Oz in recent years, I can tell you that the property prices are indeed ridiculous compared to those not that long back.

The high end of the market is insanely priced! You can buy better in well-known expensive realestate hotspots around the world.

(I wont even discuss Perth, which is off the scale altogther!)

And the lower end of the market is overpriced for what you get.

I'd say the real cost of living (including home, food, entertainment) - at a decent level of lifetstyle - is no better in Oz than elsewhere nowadays. And whilst the banking/accounting style salaries (and the wages for certain trades) are up, the aviation-related salaries & wages continue to decline in comparison, with conditions worsening.

The country's in the midst of a China-induced resource boom, and the economy is being sustained by that boom. However, structurally, the economy is becoming unstable, and personal debt levels are through the roof. In addition, the government has re-written the industrial relations framework such that if and when a "hard landing" of the economy occurs, there will be widespread discontentment if not worse.

If you really feel likely to spend a lot of time on the beach, then Oz might still be a good bet - sacrificing long term wealth for current beach-centric lifestyle. But if you really are going to live more normally, I wouldn't get too exited by the tourism ads!

Not just wrt the campaign that's this thread's topic, but in respect of other aviation-based careers and even unrelated jobs, I'd consider current "enticements" more as a good backup for harder bargaining back at home... a fall-back position if you overdo the negotiations! ;)

Disclaimer: This argument does not apply to those considering leaving certain countries with particularly low life-expectancies, and high drive-by shooting/car-jacking rates! :ooh:

SINGAPURCANAC

29th Dec 2006, 15:16

Thanks for Albizia and Myway or Highway! Your answers were exactly what me and Japanac asked for.Personaly I expected such answers. The only thing that is possitive for your country in terms of aviation bussines is that your country need it! That is only one reason ( but the strongest ,as well) why I spending days and nights thinking about this carrier oportunity. Also I have some relatives that live in Oz and as I know they work for lower salaries and they are satisfied!
Question for JAPANAC: Did you survive last night?
Best regards

spike_scramble

29th Dec 2006, 16:43

@singapurcanac:

are u really living/working in mauritius? is it that bad thinking to leave there? i know a lot of people here in germany who would do a lot to work over there....

cheers spike.

DirtyPierre

29th Dec 2006, 23:32

Gees,
After reading the posts from MYway or the Highway and Another Number, I might as well slash my wrists now!

Just for some balance.

I own my own house, I salary sacrifice 2 new Hondas (Jazz and Civic), and both my kids go to private schools. I live 50 minutes drive from the Gold Coast where I surf with my mates. I never have worries about being murdered when driving around this sunburnt country (although of course it can happen, just ask Peter Falconio when you see him!).

I have travelled to UK, Ireland, and Europe. I've been to NZ, Fiji, Hong Kong, Indonesia, and Malyasia. I'm very happy here living and working as an ATC in Oz. Sure the management types are often seeing the world of aviation differently to me, but I get paid well to do what I do and I have a great lifestyle.

I work with many ex-pats from the UK and Ireland. They all love Oz and are glad to have made the change, and I'm a better person for knowing and working with them.

DirtyPierre

30th Dec 2006, 01:02

Myway,

You sound like a financial advisor!

Since when is owning a car anything but a loss making exercise!!! Salary sacrificing enables me to drive new cars and budget easily for them.

What I'm saying is that Oz ATCs have a good income that enables them to enjoy the great lifestyle we have here.

BOK2GO

30th Dec 2006, 04:56

Just a quick question, does your wife work or is this managed on a single income?
Both my wife and I are hoping to get into AsA and if we get this right I take it our combined salaries would make us a pretty good living in Oz, equal to or better than we have here? (minus of course the occassional murder, house break, drive by, hijack, petty theft, rape and corrupt politicians)

BurglarsDog

30th Dec 2006, 09:20

As someone who made the jump from the UK to Oz just over 9 years ago I would say this or "these" infact:
Consider whether you are suffering from push or pull influences at home- are you jumping overboard so to speak in search of perceived better weather, bigger house, better education more money, better lifetsyle ( define that - different for everyone!) etc or are you being pushed - unhappy at work no obvious promotion prospects etc?
Do you value extended family? No really, do you value the company of parents - even once a month etc, and hope to support aged mum and dad as No1 or No 2 son / daughter. No ? Come!! Are you happy for parents family and friends to grow old without you? Yes? Come. Are you looking for adventure? Come. Are you around 30 something? Come. Do you have about $500, 000 to buy a moderate house outright and live off your salary, and will your wife also earn good money $80k+ for lifes little extras ( 42 inch plasma TV to watch for about 3 months when its 32 plus every day in QLD so you cant go outside just like a British winter!! !. Dont mention the aircon bill or no one will come over!!). Yes? Come. Do you really just want change and a bloody good cricket team? Come.
If your not sure, - stay - and take an extended holiday and come over anyway. Treat yourself - fly business - makes the whole experience more memorable!! Oz is a magnificent country but its not everyones Xanadu for many of the above reasons! Money is not the only issue. Remember whenever you join a new "team" you get a new coach, new idealology, new team ethos and new bullsh*t = new push factor! Same the world over.
Would I do it again? Definitely Maybe!
To me there is no point in sitting on the "What If" chair!
Life is an adventure - whether you take advantage of that fact or not is up to you and of course your family. You cant put a $ value on all lifes big decisions!
There is no right and no wrong - only a sunny tomorrow !

DogGone:ok:

turnleftnow

30th Dec 2006, 22:00

Don't forget the lovely greeting you sometimes get from the brown snake at the back of the centre when you start/finish your shift!! :eek: :eek:

Jerricho

31st Dec 2006, 00:12

As somebody who has moved country (and Air Navigation Services companies) twice now, I'll drop my 2 cents worth to this for consideration.

The "ex-pat" (for want of better word) thing isn't for everyone, especially for those in a relationship/married. BurgularsDog correctly identifies many issues that are faced by upping shop and moving country. It can be rough on spouses, especially early days during your training. Making new friends and establishing a comfort zone in a new country can certainly cause a little stress on the domestic front eg: bank accounts, accommodation, mortgages, car finance, credit score or lack there of, even stupid things like mobile/cell phone contracts (I've got a great story about this one :rolleyes: ). Kids are fairly resilient and can adapt fairly quickly but issues can still arise (I'm sure some of out ATC brothers and sisters in the sand-pit could extrapolate on this a little more). PLUS, remember being a trainee sucks, especially considering you may be learning a new way of doing business, phraseology and airspace structure.

And not trying to tell anyone how to suck eggs or p*ss on anyones parade, but sometimes it doesn't work out for whatever reason. Make sure you have some form of a backup plan (and if it can be avoided, don't burn any bridges)

That grass may certainly be greener (or browner at the moment, stupid drought).......here's wishing all those who do that it stays that way :ok:

DirtyPierre

31st Dec 2006, 00:21

Don't forget the lovely greeting you sometimes get from the brown snake at the back of the centre when you start/finish your shift!!
Don't forget the Sydney Funnel Web or Redback spiders that infest our homes, or the man-eating sharks in our waters, or the fact Oz is home to something like 8 of the 10 deadliest snakes in the world. Some of which have been found at the back door of the Brisbane Centre.

Yes, Oz really does have all these things.

I think that BurglarsDog's and Jerricho's posts sum most things up nicely.

despot

1st Jan 2007, 04:07

Beware the drop bears

Another Number

1st Jan 2007, 05:35

Beware the drop bears

:rolleyes: Oh well, someone had to!

BTW: In terms of relocation ... many who came out here 5 or so years ago from the UK had it pretty good. If you brought in a modest amount of savings/result of selling up in UK, you could buy really well in Oz, nice house - comfortable set up. And now, that house is worth maybe 2-3 times as much, depending on where you live! OTOH, those who arrived last year were greeted by a distinct lack of bargains!

Its all in the timing! :ooh:

Under_Valued_ATC

2nd Jan 2007, 03:29

Something that may be of use to people thinking of coming over is the following websites, that give an indication of the cost of housing

www.realestate.com.au (http://www.realestate.com.au)

www.domain.com.au (http://www.domain.com.au)

Sydney housing has always been expensive, and not working there I could not recommended any suburbs. Melbourne's airport is north of the city, so start looking at Tullarmarine & surrounding suburbs if you want to be within 20 minutes drive. Brisbane's airport is fairly close to the city and some fairly expensive suburbs - try Clayfied, Hendra, Toombul, Northgate etc.
In Brisbane (where I work) you'll see that a 3 bedroom house with double garage and 600 sq. m's block in the suburbs I mentioned can set you back anywhere from $350,000 to $700,000.

The realestate website also lists rental properties, but be advised there is a recognised rental shortage [5% vacancy] and potential renters are often in a bidding war for the house they want.

Under_Valued_ATC

2nd Jan 2007, 07:04

For those thinking of coming over, try this site

www.realestate.com.au (http://www.realestate.com.au)

[brisbane is in Queensland, Sydney is in New South Wales, Melbourne is in Victoria]

Sydney has always had expensive real estate, so no surprises for ex-pats there. You may all be surprised to find out that Brisbane has mostly caught up with the southern states.

For Melbourne if you want to live within 20 minutes drive of work, try Tullamarine, Gladstone Park and surrounding suburbs.

Brisbane airport, (where I work) is relatively close to the city, and most suburbs within 20 mins are fairly expensive. Try "Hendra, Clayfield, Toombul, Pinkenba" - you'll see that a 3 bedroom house with 600 sq. mitre block will cost you anywhere from $350,000 to $750,000 (more bedrooms)

You can also look at the rental listings, but be aware that there is only a 5% vacancy rate and people often go into a bidding war for the house they want.

you could also try
www.domain.com.au (http://www.domain.com.au)

Shitsu_Tonka

3rd Jan 2007, 03:01

I think the Brisbane Rental Vacancy Rate is actually a lot lower - closer to 2-3%. Recently have had tenants offer me 6 months rent paid in advance at 15% more rent than I was asking just to secure the lease - this was in an area 30 minutes drive from the airport.

Article on Brisbane Vacancy rates: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200612/s1819835.htm

Good suburbs in Sydney are whatever you can afford! Sydney airport is close to the city and beaches so surrounding suburbs are generally highly sought after and therefore valued. Median House price in Sydney is over $530K - however Sydney is a huge city - median house price in good areas within reasonable commuting distance of the airport would be closer to $7-800K+. (Some personal exposure to the what the market has been doing - 1BR Unit,Rushcutters Bay $650K, 2BR Unit Coogee $600K, 2 BR Terrace (Semi) Newtown $700K, 3BR Californian Bungalow Randwick $900K.)

Interesting Link: http://www.quartile.com.au/Market%20Data/sydney.htm

Perth - don't know much about it but this recent press suggests renting there may be a better option if you can find somewhere:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200701/s1819955.htm

Personally, I think a big correction is due in these markets because of the massive personal debt levels - it will be ugly, but should present some opportunities for those who are cashed up.

An interesting observation from some friends from Melbourne who spent 6 months living in the South of France in 2006, was that the cost of living was slightly less than in Melbourne over all - hmmm.

If you are escaping somewhere for the sake of personal security (as I think the majority of applicants to date are) then the house prices are probably not of any real concern in the short term - especially if you don't have any kids and don't need to worry about a big dwelling and school fees.

If you are thinking of coming from a stable country looking for a 'cheap' lifestyle in the sun, you would need to think long and hard about it - unless you just want to return home.

Nookie2nite

3rd Jan 2007, 05:44

Good luck with ur applications - my only concern is that ATNS + ASA = co founders of organisations, = mates = agreements.
BOK=B'OK:cool:
....man this stuff is goooood...
N2N:ok:

PS BOK - once u've sold that mansion in CT - u can easily afford a house in OZ :) Just the pool alone will buy a bungalo there.....:E

Muldrake

3rd Jan 2007, 18:25

How about bying a boat a staying on that. The boat prices offcause varies alot, but is is possible to find a desent mooring, pricewise and location, or are lifeaboards almost a no/go as they are up here...

Cheers,

Muldrake

Groovywordbender

4th Jan 2007, 12:48

Hi, I have entered an application in response to the Global Recruitment drive for Controllers by ASA. They have said I will have to complete an Online Abilities Test early this year. Can anyone provide me with some idea of what the tests will involve?
I have been a Controller for 8 years so I presume it's not the same as the initial Cognative Abilities tests.

TrafficTraffic

5th Jan 2007, 01:20

"Online Abilities Test "

They probably want to see how good you are at using the internet to find illegal MP3 and Torrents....

TT

SM4 Pirate

5th Jan 2007, 04:24

...so I presume it's not the same as the initial Cognative Abilities tests. Don't bet on it...

LACCATCO

9th Jan 2007, 13:27

How short of controllers are you guys? Is this just a tester campaign to tempt ex-pat aussies back to the fold or are you actually looking for international experienced controllers?

126,7

9th Jan 2007, 15:18

Has anybody been contacted yet for anything more than the operational documents?

bekolblockage

10th Jan 2007, 03:07

Is this just a tester campaign to tempt ex-pat aussies back to the fold or are you actually looking for international experienced controllers?

I think you've hit the nail on the head there LACCATCO. Not sure that they've been too successful - not from around here anyway.:suspect:

TrafficTraffic

10th Jan 2007, 10:25

I Suspect they saw your cricket team play and are a bit worried about the qualities of ATC's from the same place.....:=

TT

Frunobulax

10th Jan 2007, 20:40

Question one: is it a permanent job or a temporary (say 2-3 years) contract?

SM4 Pirate

10th Jan 2007, 21:15

They need somewhere near 90 rated ATCs within 2 years; they'll take as many experienced bodies as they can to save on training costs/time.

One of the problems is the move to 'service delivery lines'; juggling sector configurations and making people more 'specialised'; low level, high level (non radar) or radar only 'experts'. To do all that training we need more than standard, but we are about 40 short of standard right now!

The jobs will be perminent and under the Certified Agreement (like all operational ATCs); but it will be an interesting discussion regarding pay; they have a large pay scale proposed for this type of entry, one can only asume you'll start on the bottom and work upwards through it ('depending on experience', awsure); not very attractive if you are currently on more $$$ than they are offering you in 8 years time... But it's a lifestyle choice in the end anyway, you won't be coming here for the $$$, beacuse many other places offer much more of that.

If you were "targetted" in another industry, say the finance sector, would you really be expected after a 20 year career to enter at the pay level of someone who has been in for 3-4 years? It doesn't make sense; push hard on this if you are thinking of jumping a puddle; if it's universal that everyone 'claims the top pay level' they might get the message.

wizblade

10th Jan 2007, 21:40

Hi, i'm searching information concerning with Brisbane. I'm an italian air traffic controller, at present employed in the radar control centre of Milan, that manage all the air traffic in the northern part of Italy, About 2300 aircraft per day. I've read a part of your forum, i really would like to have some real information, not about money,but about real life. Here in Italy, Australia still look like a sort of happy island where you can wake up in the morning with a smile while you're looking at the sea. I'm 33, married with a son of 2 years, and i would like to make the jump, so i'm interested with any info about how an air traffic controller can survive there. Is your salary enough to enjoy the life with little things? I don't care to have a statue of gold, if they can offer also an equal or near salary, would be nice.;)

Nuckinfuts

11th Jan 2007, 01:20

Hi Wizblade,
Are you after specific information about working in Brisbane Centre or living in Brisbane the city?
I work in Brisbane ATC, and after reading some posts from others on this forum, I almost wonder if I’m working in the same room as some others who’ve posted on this thread.
Basically, any ATC can have a comfortable living in Australia on our salary. You’ll be able to afford a comfortable house (with a mortgage) close to work and the people you work with will be friendly and helpful (including supervisors). Of course, as in most places, there’ll be one or two exceptions to this rule. You’ll get 5 weeks (or 6 weeks, if you work 24 hour roster) annual leave, and you’ll be able to afford a nice car. In regard to the rosters here, you’ll generally work 9 shifts each fortnight, and will not be REQUIRED to work any overtime.
I expect Australian ATC is done differently than most places, but I believe when busy, ATC workload is mostly similar worldwide. We have a lot less traffic here, but our procedures are generally bloated, so when we’re busy, it can become difficult. The job is relatively secure and the working conditions are good, compared to most other professions. After speaking to friends and former colleagues who now work overseas, it seems Management here is probably no better or worse than in other countries. They seem to have the same sort of complaints that we have here, but basically, you can become as involved or as uninvolved as you want.
Brisbane city (and South-East Queensland) is one of the nicer places to live in Australia because of its warmer climate. Accordingly, the population growth in this part of the country is high compared to other states. Unfortunately, the Queensland Government’s infrastructure is not keeping up as a result, although road traffic would be nothing like in your part of the world.
I think you’d find Brisbane (or anywhere in Australia for that matter) a nice place to live and work, but I think you’ll find it very different (slower pace) to what you’re used to.
Hope this helps.

que

11th Jan 2007, 15:58

SM4 Pirate:
with regards to the need for ATC in two years,how desperate is the need for Tower rated only controllers?I have 3 years of just tower experience.
Was interested only in the move to an airport in QLD area maybe archfield or similar.
Can you shed some light?
Nuckinfuts
Any info?
Many thanks

DirtyPierre

11th Jan 2007, 19:20

que,

Tower requirement is as bad as the enroute environment, especially with some outstation tower controllers wanting to get back to the centres or capital city towers.

Chance of getting a Qld tower are unknown, but if you get a tower job somewhere else, then you are in the system to move to a tower in Qld later on.

Why Archerfield? Go for Hamilton, Maroochydore, or somewhere far more pleasant.

LACCATCO

11th Jan 2007, 21:08

Alot of good stuff in there which I basically interpret as 'same sh!t, different country'

Standard of living is generally same as UK i guess but with better weather, more space, less traffic(cars) and generally less stress. Holidays will be cheaper cos you won't have to leave the country for the first few years as its got so much to offer domestically - unlike here unless Butlins has significantly improved in the last 20 years!

My application is in, if I hear anything else I'll keep you posted...

GL to anyone else going for it...:D

aluminium persuader

11th Jan 2007, 21:58

Wouldn't it be nice if someone from ASA HR joined for a general q&a session?!

****su, DP & Nuts - I visited BNE ACC & TWR on Nov 05. Did I meet any of you? I was with a mate who's a VB FO.

ap:)

linus

12th Jan 2007, 03:01

Kinobe, why not try Switzerland? They are hiring again I think, the pay is great (also the cost of living) and they have a great retirement plan and pension system. :-)
A few years ago I might have taken the ASA bait but now I am at a nicer bigger airport than then. :-)

wizblade

12th Jan 2007, 11:35

Hi Nuckinfuts, thank you very much, for your informations. You are the first one that speak in a positive way. That's what i need. I think job is quite similar to other places, and as of the most of us: I Love this Job, it makes me feel live! Concerning with the difficulties, I think it's only a problem of experience, the centre of Milan is one of the most busy and geographically difficult of Europe, due to the presence of the Alps. You said that your procedures are quite blocked, are you referring to radar area or approach service? Does Brisbane provide also approach service or is focused only to enroute? I know this question could appear strange, but Milan centre is divided in two parts, first one manage enroute traffic, and the second, approach service for the major airports. We make a large use of radar vectors due to high concentration of airplanes in a narrow area, ( is great as the Queensland!). I've read that you've already implemented Ads, is that true? If the lifestyle can make me able to afford a normal life, to guarantee a nice future for my family...that's what i want. Italy is a fantastic country, but year after year there is one problem that i feel growing:crimes and overpopulation that means run faster and faster, and always look behind your shoulders, i don't like that, i still want to look at life with a smile. Concerning with money, our salary( i'm talking about a rated area radar controller) is about 85000 euro(gross), that means 140000 australian dollars, but we have a taxation of 39%!!! I've read on the global research that the salary should be around 120000$, is that true? I hope you can answer also to this question, i know economy is different country by country, but i really would like to make the jump. My wife is in love with Australia she says that is one of few places where she would like to live( she has travelled all over the world). Greetings from Italy:}

que

12th Jan 2007, 14:46

DirtyPierre
Thanks for the reply,Wanted a tower near brisbane as I have my close family all living in brisbane and more to immigrate!Did visit the tower last year and had a chat to a lady secretary to the chief I think,anyway she says with my experience at a moderate traffic movement airport I would most likely go to a smaller station which I dont mind just somewhere close to BNE!
Regards

AirNoServicesAustralia

12th Jan 2007, 14:50

Mr Wizblade if you exclamation marks after 39% tax in Italy, you will have a coronary when you hear the tax rate in Australia (especially if you add in all the other taxes apart from Income tax, eg. GST, Stamp Duty, fuel excise, tax on cigarettes and alcohol). I read somewhere (sorry can't remember the source), that in Australia, an Australian in the top tax bracket pays out of their gross salary a total of 60% in taxes. Ouch!

Knackers

12th Jan 2007, 20:53

That's a little mischievous, AirNoServicesAustralia. Our tax rates cut in at different levels. I'm on the top of the FPC pay scale at $127,000. My fortnightly salary (without overtime) is $4329 of which I pay tax of $1330 - about 31%. I then pay GST on what I buy. If I'm frugal my overall tax is less than someone who isn't.

I'm covered by Medicare if I go to hospital. My son had his tonsils out a few years ago and I didn't pay a cent because he went into the public system. There's not many countries in the world where that happens.

By any comparison, someone living in Oz has a good standard of living on an ATC salary - and heaps of overtime to boot.

DirtyPierre

12th Jan 2007, 22:16

Some basic facts about Civil ATC in Oz:

- Two enroute centres, Brisbane and Melbourne.
- both centres are responsible for all enroute services in Oz
- Melbourne also provides approach for Melbourne & Canberra, Brisbane does approach for Brisbane and Coolangatta.
- Approach units at Sydney, Adelaide, Perth and Cairns
- there are a number of outstation towers

go to the Airservices website for more detail or if you PM me, I can send you a little powerpoint presentation that has more info.

The Airservices Australia website is:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/default.asp

Nuckinfuts

12th Jan 2007, 23:42

Hi Wizblade,
In answer to your questions, no place in Australia is geographically difficult. Our tallest mountain is only about 7000ft and it’s in a designated ‘remote’ area, so it’s not close to any major air routes. When I said co-ordination is ‘bloated’, I mean it can be “verbose” or more than what is really needed. It’s not difficult, just too much of it.
Brisbane centre has both Approach and En-Route functions, but I would expect most entrants would be placed in En-Route, as there are significantly more positions in En-Route. Approach is probably a bit more difficult than En-Route, but the pay scale is identical. Transfers from En-route to Approach are available periodically, but you would have to be selected in an order of merit from the other applicants.
ADS-B is currently being implemented, but its use is not widespread at the moment. I expect this will occur over the next few years.
In regard to salary, I expect to get somewhere between $140,000 & $150,000AUD this year, depending on how much overtime I accept, but I’m on the top increment for ATC pay scale. I will have about one third of this deducted as income tax, leaving me with a disposable income of around $90,000 AUD. (I have friends, not ATC, that get about $50,000AUD before tax is taken and they seem to live quite comfortably, so don’t worry about too much about income tax and being able to afford to live here.) Although, your starting pay rate with Airservices would have be negotiated by you, but my feeling is the salary anyone in your position could negotiate, would be around $60,000 to $80,000AUD; don’t ask me why, but that’s what I think…… but I’ve been wrong before???? You will also receive an annual pay rise, until you reach the top pay scale. The time frame for this depends on what level you start from, but will probably take about 8 years (my guess?).
Also, there’s very little crime here in comparison to what you’re experiencing and personal safety is no concern at all. If your major concern is quality of life, don’t even worry about the negatives of ATC in Australia. We all complain mainly because we have spare time to do it.

wizblade

12th Jan 2007, 23:55

Hi Airnoservicesaustralia, I've searched in the net many informations about taxes in Australia, i've also had relations with some guys which have lived there for a period. My 39% is referred only to taxes on the salary, if add also others such as gasoline, house, cars, medical assistance and so on, i think also in Italy we will reach easily about 50% 60%. Our problem is that we have a lot of little taxes coming out as mushrooms. Thanks a lot for these informations, they will help to make the right choice (i Hope). Just another question: Are you satisfied of your lifestyle? I love my country, but unfortunately nothing works as it would! I would accept all these taxation if i could see any result but i'm blind, otherwise nothing happens. Some friends of mine told me that in Australia the situation is quite different, is that true? They have lived there for six months and told me that it's another world, is it the point of view of stranger people, or also Australians think that way? How is the situation of crimes? Is that the true that you don't need to put slabs on your windows and alarms in your house? Can you really still have a walk during the night in the centre of your city without fear of any aggression? This situation in Italy is becoming unsupportable, also if it is only in great cities.
Any info about that would be appreciated. Greetings:uhoh:

wizblade

13th Jan 2007, 00:10

Hi Nuckinfuts, you don't know how you're making me feel better. Regarding to the passage from enroute to approach position, it' similar to ours, and now i've understood what you were talking about when you told "boated procedures". I think that the first step should be making the jump, anything else will come day by day. Also if we are at the beginning of the selection, i consider a good state of mind as one of the most important aspects to face that in the best way. One last information: some friends of mine which have lived there for about six months, told me that during the summer the level of the humidity is very high, is that true? I'm monitoring also the weather conditions since one month, and it doesn't seems correct. I appreciate very much your help, thanks.

Another Number

13th Jan 2007, 00:44

Weather conditions in many parts of Oz have been unusual (drought related) in recent times. BNE is usually humid! ;)

BTW - In terms of what I had been saying about crazy real-estate prices now, compared to years past ... PER now is the world's fifth most expensive city in terms of realestate (median houseprice vs income)! (It would have been around 150th a few years back :{)

WRT the crime ... its still not bad in most parts of Oz, however we are well past the days of leaving doors unlocked, etc. Bit of a lottery about walking some streets at night. (And Oz cities still cant compete with European cities for actually having a reason to be in them at night! :{ Most go to sleep at night ... move along, nothing to see!).

Nuckinfuts

13th Jan 2007, 05:42

Hi wizblade,
Another Number is correct in regard to Brisbane’s climate. Summer is usually humid with temperatures normally around 35 degrees. It’s something that you get used to after one summer, but it’s very good for outdoor activities (and good beer drinking weather – you can get Pironi in Australia too). Although, we’ve had cooler than normal weather so far this summer, so if your friends are finding it very humid at the moment, you may want to look for a house with air conditioning????
Also, good or bad weather all depends on your expectation; I have friends who moved here from Canberra early last year, and they told me that there hasn’t been one “bad day” (weather wise) since they arrived, so I think it’s more to do with what you expect. Personally, I like the climate here and I think most Australians do; which is the main reason for the high population growth in south-east Queensland.
Unfortunately(?), Brisbane has Stradbroke Island located just off the coast and as a result, there is no surfing here, so if you want that, along with the afternoon (cooler) sea breeze, you’d have to drive (or live) at the “Sunshine Coast” (1 hour drive north of here) or the “Gold Coast” (1 hour south). Some controllers I work with, live in these areas and commute to work each day. Because of the shift work, the drive is usually in the quieter non peak periods, so it’s not too demanding. Anyway, if you want any more info, let me know, or you can send a PM. Cheers.

wizblade

13th Jan 2007, 08:36

Here we are again Nuckinfuts, i've just read your answer. I'm considering Brisbane because of its climate. Consider that in this period, that is summer for you, here in Milan we have temperature between 5 and-3 C°. Anyway thanks for your availability,( also for PM) it' important to have contacts with a person living there, i can only imagine at present, but i like what i see. Instead of drinking Peroni we can consider also to have a XXXX beer! Cheers for now-:D

thesunnysideup

13th Jan 2007, 12:01

hi all,

i am working enroute in austria and followed this thread for some days now and (thanks to wizblade ;-) btw i would also appreciate bris) most of my questions have been answered. i recently applied online and am now wondering how long it will probably take until i get a response or rather what may i expect next - an invitation to fly over for an interview?

and about habitation .. i don't surf (yet), actually i think i would even fall off a surfboard when it's still on land but i'd love a place close to the ocean so which areas are best to search for both closeness to water and working place?

thanks in advance and cheers from austria!

wizblade

13th Jan 2007, 15:47

AirNoServicesAustralia

13th Jan 2007, 16:17

You may not have much choice as to where you go anyway, but considering the climate in Europe, my personal opinion is that Melbourne would suit you better. I'm not going to start an argument over which city is better to live in, as they both have their good and bad points but while a lot of Australians consider Melbourne to be cold, by world standards and definately by European standards the climate is extremely mild. Not to forget Melbourne has the best food, coffee and sporting events in Australia (sorry couldn't help myself ;) )

thesunnysideup

13th Jan 2007, 18:50

... AirNoServicesAustralia... the temperature is one of the reasons for me to move actually :)
Right now we have a supermild winter ( bugs and mosquitos etc are supposed to die, trees should lose their leaves and the coldness also protects them somehow - but that's not happening, people get stung by mosquitos, farmers need to start spraying instecticides, etc... ) with around 10°C but i am still freezing and running around with gloves and goose down jacket!

One year ago (Jan &Feb) I was in Cairns and Sydney and the temp was great.. and friends had been to Melbourne in July or August ... -2°c and even snowing one day... hmmm...

according to http://www.ausemade.com.au/ :
MELBOURNE:

http://www.ausemade.com.au/national/resource/climate/vic/images/mel_rt.gif
BRISBANE:

http://www.ausemade.com.au/national/resource/climate/qld/images/bne_rt.gif

posted on august 10 2005 on http://melbourne.metblogs.com/archives/2005/08/cold_snap.phtml :

http://melbourne.metblogs.com/photos/snow.jpg

if you type snow and melbourne into google you will even find a website selling goose down blankets ... :eek: i'd have to bring all my winter clothes, i'll need a cargo plane only for myself ..:p

thesunnysideup

13th Jan 2007, 19:05

Hi thesunnysideup, they should contact us at the end of January. Concerning with the meeting, i suppose they'll make the same as the New Zealand, it means that they will choose a city of Europe where meet the applicants but it's just my thought. Anyway you,ve a companion regarding surf, i'll also have to start from the begin...it will be a pleasure, but what about the Australian boys looking with a smile to these two ridiculous european that are trying to stand up on a surf table?:cool:

.. sounds fine with me though i'll be in south east asia for holiday in february anyway, i could stop by for a couple of days ;)

oh and ....

http://homepage.mac.com/philsherry/.Pictures/%20holiday/surfin%27%20nerd.jpg

.. i also posted something about the weather, for some reason it has to be activated by an admin .. it mainly said: melbourne is was too cold, see temperature charts and freeze ;-)

Myway or the highway

13th Jan 2007, 20:27

just to let you folks know I spoke to ASA recruitment on friday and they have told me that they have recieved over 450 applications for approximately 30 - 35 expected positions, which is well over the 100 or so they expected (so just goes to show you how much they DON'T have their finger on the pulse). They, will begin vetting the applications over the next few weeks and intend to contact those that they shortlist late in January to early Feb.
I would expect they would shortlist to about 70 people.
Also, be aware that this company works on what costs them the least, so if they can minimise cost by taking the people that will cost them the least (includes both interview, moving and wage costs) then that is the way they will go.
It seems that quite a few RAAF controllers have applied so one could expect the majority of those will be shortlisted, which will put most of the overseas applicants out of the picture. sorry, not wanting to put a damper on your aspirations of moving to Australia, but just think you all need to know how this organisation works.

Chow;)

wizblade

13th Jan 2007, 21:04

:eek: Thanks Myway or the highway. Any info can be useful to us, i think that they will certainly short the list, it's a part of the game, if every one of us decide to make this choice, must consider also negative aspects, maybe should give more weight to these. I know that New Zealand made the meeting in Paris, but if u tell me so, i suppose that to short the list even more, they will make it in Australia for sure! :ugh: Let's wait and see. Cheers

No Further Requirements

14th Jan 2007, 03:33

.....It seems that quite a few RAAF controllers have applied so one could expect the majority of those will be shortlisted.......
Don't bet on it. AsA got into a bit of hot water over how many RAAFies they took in 2003/4/5. They ended up canning short courses to appease the govenment - no RAAFies wanted to do the 12 month long course.
I think maybe now they know there are in the s@#t for ATC numbers, they might look at RAAF people again. But considering how short of controllers the RAAF is, I expect the people at ministerial level would set a certain cap on how many AsA can take.
Sounds shonky, but while AsA is a 'wholly government owned company' they still take their direction from the government of the day. Maybe the RAAF should stop screwing around with the pay case. I remember it was 'all systems go' when I got my first rating in 1997........they were still waiting for it to get moving when I left in 2003......
And they wonder why people leave......:rolleyes:
Best of luck to all the applicants from all over the world. As mentioned a few times, the grass might not be greener, but it tastes different! No better, no worse than others it seems.
And are there any tower jobs going? Lots of geographical choices there!
Cheers,
NFR.
PS. Thumbs up for either Melbourne or Brisbane - I'm in Melbourne myself. Feel free to PM me if you need any info.

Fox3snapshot

14th Jan 2007, 21:58

Hah! 97....try back to late 80's when the ball started rolling (or got pushed again!) on RAAF pay cases and associated conditions of service.

It will never change mate, we'll be Ppruning from our wheelchairs with the duty nurse typing our posts for us and things will still be the same! :rolleyes:

:ok: Good luck to the gang though if they can get it sorted.

thesunnysideup

15th Jan 2007, 14:26

I think maybe now they know there are in the s@#t for ATC numbers, they might look at RAAF people again. But considering how short of controllers the RAAF is, I expect the people at ministerial level would set a certain cap on how many AsA can take.

just one thing: RAAF is Australian, so people from RAAF could apply anytime, right?
So why are they doing a global search if they prefer RAAF anyway; it's more work for them to sort out all the applications, the foreign candidates would need a visa, there's more cost for moving from somwhere to oz, candidates maybe need more training because they have no clue about the airspace or anything - etc etc ..

No Further Requirements

15th Jan 2007, 15:30

just one thing: RAAF is Australian, so people from RAAF could apply anytime, right?
So why are they doing a global search if they prefer RAAF anyway; it's more work for them to sort out all the applications, the foreign candidates would need a visa, there's more cost for moving from somwhere to oz, candidates maybe need more training because they have no clue about the airspace or anything - etc etc ..

People from the RAAF can apply at any time. It's just that short courses haven't been offered for a while and people don't want to do 12 months of college training that is 80% old material for them, let alone the pay drop for that period. Also the RAAF is short of people and as I said, there may be a cap put on how many AsA can take. Apart from that, people in the RAAF might not want to leave. There would be around 180 ATCs in the RAAF, so taking even 20 of them would put a big hole in their numbers.

Cheers,

NFR.

thesunnysideup

16th Jan 2007, 06:45

NFR, clear your mailbox thanks!

que

16th Jan 2007, 13:44

Myway or the highway you wrote about ASA advising you that they have recieved over 450 applications for approximately 30 - 35 expected positions,"

The 30-35 expected positions was this for all position ie enroute app area and tower? Any idea how many tower ATC required in the QLD area?
Thanks

Knackers

19th Jan 2007, 00:19

From a recent newsletter:
National Recruitment Update
National Recruitment had very busy finish to 2006 and we have launched straight back into a hectic start to 2007!
In late 2006, Airservices launched a Global Search for experienced Air Traffic Controllers which received a very
large response. We are currently reviewing applications. Airservices Australia advertised nationally both in newspapers and online on Saturday 6 January, for ab initio Air Traffic Controller Training positions. So far we have received 324 new applications for the ab initio positions. We are encouraging candidates to apply by Sunday 21 January, to be considered for intakes later in 2007. We are also in the process of finalising decisions for the initial 2007 ATC ab initio enroute course. Interviewing will be conducted in Sydney this week and offers of employment are likely to be made at the end of January/early February.
Applications for the July 2007 Technical Trainee intake are still being accepted. If you know anyone interested, please tell them to apply. More information is available at http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/employment/trainees/default.asp
This week first round interviews for the Airservices graduate positions are being conducted. Second round interviews will
be held in the next 2 weeks. or more information on all the positions available please see www.airservicesaustralia.com/employment

En-Rooter

19th Jan 2007, 10:51

NOTICE TO ALL POTENTIAL RECRUITS TO ASA.

Donot let the bean counters of ASA dictate to you a salary.

Your experience is worth coin.

Yes we have a great lifestyle in Australia, but donot whore yourself.

Let the market forces set your salary (ASA is desperate, they are not doing you a favour by recruiting you, you are helping them out!!)

Any new recruits who come to Melbourne, welcome (as long as you are not a whore) look forward to having a reeb with you.

:ok:

Knackers

20th Jan 2007, 22:15

Maybee there's a few spots here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=260723

Get the morning rush out of the way and be on the beach at Cottesloe by 1400H. Or Swanbourne....

WideGlide

21st Jan 2007, 03:17

Hiya all.
Interesting read. Funny how the wheel turns (every 7 years they say). In 1994 NZ's Airways corporation interviewed 70 odd SA atc's (SA only had 145 odd at the time countrywide) and took 4. In perspective NZ had double the amount of SA atc's , half the amount of stations and a fraction of the movements. On the movement side , JNB APPR only had 11 controllers (ACC 18-20 Ctlr's) vs the movements per Controller that made them fairly busy, I am sure nothing has changed. Anyway in just over a year only ONE SA atc remained in NZ.
Well , what I am trying to say is wether or not ASA take how ever many SA ATC's , this is nothing new and ATNS won't change because of it (Just think of how many ATC's have left SA - and guess what the same issues of the last 20 years are still prevalent in SA! You can pay more money in SA, but that will not buy happiness, and also no matter what you read here some ATC's are quite happy in SA.
Quality of service is another debate and I sympathise with those Staalwarts holding up the fort.
At least we know SYD has the worlds 2nd best ATC's, and if you can't beat them.....

tobzalp

21st Jan 2007, 07:28

WideGlide

21st Jan 2007, 09:32

Keep in mind wideglide, noone is making you apply or making you move. It is up to you. There is much talk of movements and traffic levels. The sooner that people start to realise that work should be the bottom of the priority list in life the better. ATC the world around seems to have the same problems. If you think you will move and these will go, you will be disappointed.
Weigh up all of the other factors when making your decision. I can assure you that the other guys out in the break at your favourite beach on the Gold Coast really wont care that you handle 1000 movements a day only using 5 miles unless approach is open but your kids will enjoy not being shot and killed for their mobile phone and your daughter raped. Doom and gloom I know but I know where my tent will be pitched.

WHOA there Big Fella, I think you are missing the boat a bit. I have been around a bit and seen a bit.
For reference the 'break', at surfers is a dissapointment (ask any surfer from SA) and if your kids want a real education let them spend a schoolies weekend in the Gold Coast.
Best wishes to all who apply.

Swings and round-a-bouts - 'Nuff Said

DirtyPierre

22nd Jan 2007, 03:09

Any surfer from SA will tell you to go to Snapper, or Lennox, or Cabaritta, or Byron. Surfers Paradise is for the tourists.

celeritas

22nd Jan 2007, 15:24

Geez DP you're bringing back some memories there. I spent my teenage years around the south coast (courtesy of a grand parent who lived at Palm Beach). You are indeed correct; Surfer's is for the tourists!!! Must get back that way some time and check it out - been a long time since I've ridden though; but then again I could just sit out the back and look like I know what I am doing!!!

BOK2GO

23rd Jan 2007, 04:45

Just a small correction. I know of two ex SA atc's working in NZ.

As far as I can see the OZ atcs are paid about on par with the SA atcs.
The SA atcs are not chasing money in wanting to move to ASA but rather the same lifestyle in a safe enviroment. Movements don't really come in to it because I for one work to live and not live to work. And that doesn't mean I'm dispassionate about my work.

slusher

24th Jan 2007, 04:21

I have just heard that ASA will be look at accepting 20 RAAF controllers this year. Not sure if this means the government has stepped in to keep things under control (as both ASA and DoD are obviously both Gov. Departments). Iknow that there are many RAAF controllers who have submitted applications, wondering if this would have an impact on the "genesis" integration project?

No Further Requirements

24th Jan 2007, 08:20

Slusher, it sounds to me like AsA are allowed to take 20 currently serving RAAFies. However, you are free to resign, with three months notice of course, and get a job wherever the hell you want. I don't think it would be legal for AsA to descriminate on you based on where you used to work. I'd like to see them try it - would make an interesting court case....

Resign now, and tell AsA you have resigned. If the course doesn't happen within three months, just extend your resignation date - the RAAF will keep you for as long as it can. No one can tell you what to do or where you can and can't go AFTER you have resigned! Don't resign to go to the job, just resign, and hey, look, what's this letter in the mail I wonder? A job....for me? Wow! There's no compultion to tell the RAAF why you're heading off.

Cheers,

NFR.

slusher

25th Jan 2007, 03:30

Thanks for the advice, but I have been out and with ASA for the last few years. Was basically trying to find out if anyone else had heard anything as I have many emails hitting my inbox from friends still in the blue suit.

tobzalp

25th Jan 2007, 07:02

Willytown are now opening 6am to 10pm local every day next week with weekend hours to be determined after further hazard identification. Where are all the staff coming from??

BOK2GO

25th Jan 2007, 09:12

If that's Williamstown WA you have two volunteers right here.

Myway or the highway

25th Jan 2007, 09:49

No mate

it is Williamtown airbase just north of Newcastle in NSW, run by military controllers only (AT THIS STAGE)

have any of you SA guys thought of joining the RAAF as controllers? You will be required to get citizenship, and guess what they help you get it straight away (no having to wait the required 3 or so years as a permanent resident) you do your few years with them, pay is OK thenwill most likely welcomed by ASA, and guess what you will be eligible for DHA housing where youpay only about $150 pw rent they pay the rest?

Maybe you guys who miss out should think this one through, the RAAF are extremely short of staff at this time!

cheers;) ;)

aluminium persuader

25th Jan 2007, 10:19

Hey guys!

Did anyone get an acknowledgement of receipt of their documents from ASA? I'm sure they've had a shed-load of applicants but it would be nice to know they got them!

ap

BOK2GO

25th Jan 2007, 11:07

MW or the HW
Thanks, I'm thinking of Fort William. I have considered going SAAF and then RAAF to get into ASA and that might still be the route if unsuccessfull over the next few months. We have had a handfull of our military guys walk across to the RAAF so definately an option.

AP
As for acknowledgement of 'past experienced', yes I got it. I did email off my stuff asap and it got ackowledged around 20 Dec. A friend here emailed off his things about 10 days after me and is still awaiting answer. It might just be a back log they're wading through.

aluminium persuader

25th Jan 2007, 11:32

Dankewell Bok. Hope so!:\

NIMFLT

25th Jan 2007, 14:44

Willytown are now opening 6am to 10pm local every day next week with weekend hours to be determined after further hazard identification. Where are all the staff coming from??

not according to today's notam. Are you sure?

ATS AMD HR
MON 2230 - 0600
TUE 1950 - 0700
WED 2200 - 0600
THUR 2200 - 0600
FRI 2230 - 0530
SAT DEACTIVE
SUN DEACTIVE
HOURS MAY VARY - CHECK PRIOR TO PLANNING.
OUTSIDE OFFICE HOURS ATS NOT AVBL
FROM 01 212230 TO 01 260530

tobzalp

25th Jan 2007, 16:34

That is for this week, not next week. Yes I am sure.

despot

26th Jan 2007, 04:05

setting code to 7500

thesunnysideup

26th Jan 2007, 05:22

Dankewell Bok. Hope so!:\

called them up after a week or so, they had around 300 mails to reply so were really busy; after that call i received my confirmation the same day.

cheers!

wizblade

28th Jan 2007, 09:40

Here we are again! Does anyone know when the online test will start? I know there are also controllers interested with tower control and approach...:hmm: Let' think about that....which are the numbers? How many enroute? Tower and approach? Will they be gathered together or divided in groups depending on their skill? The online test will be only psycometric? Concerning with the interview, will it be to test our skill, or only to have an idea of our job habitat? I've searched on the net, but it seems to be one of the mystery of life. :sad: Please help us! WE're ready to migrate and to follow one of the best suggest to not whore ourselves... We're still searching infos that maybe for most of you are evident...but we live on the other side of the world and for sure ASA policy is different from ours(I hope).:} Cheers from Italy

SM4 Pirate

29th Jan 2007, 06:01

Wizblade,

Maaaaattttttteeeeee!!!!!!! If we had info we'd give it to you; I would like to have holidays sometime this decade etc. We ATCs in oz want help (like many other places in the world); just don't do it for peanuts, hold out for the top increment; don't seem too desparate, put on your best poker face; you're making the sacrifice moving countrys etc.

I'm guessing, but they need enroute area and TMA (Tracon/terminal)controllers more than tower bodies. There is a concept of releasing current Enroute Area staff to other locations (particularly towers) when they 'backfill' with OS controllers (this is 2-3 years away before getting ratings in other locations). Do I trust them to get it right, awsure...

Do I trust them to take enroute area (radar and non radar controllers) and not tower staff, awsure.... See above re time frames...

At the moment, there is a management restructure going on, splitting the ATC setup into 3 groups. ECS (East Coast Services, radar only, CTA only, including most Radar towers); UAS (Upper Airspace Services, Non Radar, ADS-B, ADS-C, high level) and RS (Regional Services, everywhere else, including Perth CTA and TOWER). Establishing people into these groups will takes heaps of valuable training; it's reconfiguring all the sectors to fit in the new concept. All the while training of the newbie’s is going off (about 1 in 12 ATCs will be a new trainee by the end of this year)...

Combine this with all the managers of operational staff potentially losing their jobs, getting new ones in the new structure, new contracts /responsibilities etc. is leading to very low morale (and very few 'believe' the ideas are valid). Then there is the biggest con of all; new technology will facilitate all this; yeah well maybe after 2010 (certainly not before) and only after throwing serious coin at it and they really want it to happen (ie spend the money).

So what happens next; hope the HR clowns, with all their bright ideas, get it right, stop all the rubbish, concentrate on "core" business (I'm not going to hold my breath).

I wish you luck, but maaaaatttttteeeeee, they have no idea what it is they are about to do; let alone have any answers for 6 to 12 months time.

So does this sound like management at home; or any other ATC management world wide, I suspect so.

Goodluck.

wizblade

29th Jan 2007, 16:34

Hi SM4 Pirate. Thanks a lot! In this thread i've found lot of the infos i was searching for. I've understood that Asa policy is quite similar to Enav. Anyway i'll wear my poker face to get the best match! I'm interested with enroute place, just because at present i'm employed in Milan Radar centre. I know that only few of all the applicants are convinced to make the jump! You know one day you say: Hey guys Australia is searching for controllers, i'm going to try.... After one week as a sort of chain effect or if u prefer "sheep effect" about 20 of us filled the apply form!" :eek: It would be nice to have an italian colony on the other side of the planet, but my sensation is that only 5-6 of us are really convinced to do it for real. My skin sensation is to look for Brisbane centre...:cool: sounds good! I really would like to live in a sub tropical climate, but at present also Melbourne would be nice. The problem will be to move all your "life" over there, and I think that during the interview they'll have to give the right weight to it! I hope to have the chance to look behind and say: It was the right choice:ok: but my sensation is that it won't be so simple as they make it appear. Thanks to all The Aussies that are supporting our questions. Hope to have a beer with lot of you, and also a surf or Kite tutor! There's anyone of u that ride motorbikes over there? In case of coming there, i'll leave my team here:{ , but i'll bring my Fireblade with me.:E

Knackers

29th Jan 2007, 19:29

Hey Wizblade. There are big Italian clubs in every major city in Oz. You won't be alone. Do a Google search.

The Euronator

29th Jan 2007, 19:49

Knackers,

"There are big Italian clubs in every major city in Oz. "

I hope you are meaning the socialising variety because the Football variety there is NO division anymore

Or so we think ;)

wizblade

29th Jan 2007, 21:24

GREAAAAAT!!! I'm not definitely interested in football. I hope to socialise with Italians but especially with Australians. I love Italy, but if it should be, i'd like to integrate in the new reality... it would be nice to have meeting in some circuit over there. I'll make the research and thanks to Nuckinfuts i've already found something interesting near Brisbane.:ok: OOOPSS maybe i should begin thinking something else. I know there are lot of bikers over there...hope to join the journey! Anyway it seems to be a great place. Thanks a lot...let u know:ok:

aluminium persuader

3rd Feb 2007, 10:48

:eek: Just heard from ASA that they DIDN'T receive my documents & asking me to re-send them.

Guys, if you've sent off your operational documentation but not heard anything yet I'd advise you to check that it was received!

:ok:

SM4 Pirate

4th Feb 2007, 09:27

The recruiting team has a world wide trip planned. The chief is called the King of Bling; you'll know why if you see him; try not to laugh. Seriously he wouldn't know one ATC from another; his expertise is allegedly "industrial relations"; not sure who will be carrying his bags; but it seems like a "Jolly" too me (pun intended).

wizblade

4th Feb 2007, 15:45

Nice to know! Do you also know something about when it should be? Finally something is moving...thanks for the help...we're waiting for the call;)

AirNoServicesAustralia

4th Feb 2007, 19:24

Maybe instead of this whole circus (because believe me that is what this is going to turn into), AirServices could take a big leaf out of Norwegian ATC's book. That is, realise they are short of controllers, realise they have homegrown controllers overseas in large numbers who have gained valuable experience, and would be willing to come home for the right package but certainly aren't that desperate to grovel at their old employers feet for a job back.

Norway, contacted each of the controllers individually, and asked them what location they would like to return to, and when they would be wanting to return. Voila, they all have start dates back in their workplace of choice, at the start time of their choice, at a pay rate that recognizes their experience level. They are happy and the Norwegian ATC provider is happy because they now know what staffing levels they can plan around. And guess what no overseas recruiting junkets required by anyone.

No Further Requirements

5th Feb 2007, 01:25

AirNoServicesAustralia:

Problem with that is that there is a big "you buggered off, why should we give you a job back, and why should we have to pay you more than what you left on?" mentality. They think they can rely on people wanting to be in Oz for the lifestyle rather than wanting a good package. I hope that attitiude changes as they need the bums on seats ASAP.

Cheers,

NFR.

AirNoServicesAustralia

5th Feb 2007, 02:36

We've all been over this in the past, but I still don't understand that mentality. We all gave a minimum of 5 years service to AirServices, and then for a variety of reasons, went in search of a new challenge. Forgetting the argument of who is busier than who, we all have been exposed to different things and different experiences, that can only be of benefit to AirServices. Therefore instead of seeing it as "we are paying you more than what you left on", they could see it as "we are paying you what you are worth".

I don't know what it costs to sponsor someone through the residency process in Australia but it can't be cheap, especially when you consider all the relocation costs (freight, air tickets etc) they will have to pay, if they want to be internationally competitive, but, for every returning Aussie expat they save those substantial costs, and also know they will not have little surprises waiting around the corner (like get the Aussie passport and run, English language problems, "interesting" training background). I have seen first hand that while most western countries do meet a minimum standard at least of ATC, we all do it very differently. Australian ATC is very particular in how they want it done (especially phraseology wise) and whereas in somewhere like the Middle East as long as we keepem apart, noone really cares if you speak like a Yank, a Yarpie, an Aussie, or a Scandihooligan, in Australia there is a specific way you say things and do things, and that will be a big problem for non-Aussie trained ATCers.

Anyway for years there have been rumours that AirServices were going to take the individual approach to luring back those that have flown the coop but as yet my P.O. Box has remained empty. I guess I will feel the sand between my toes and no income tax for a few years yet, cheers ANSA

Quokka

5th Feb 2007, 05:56

No Further... you're spot-on with the AsA Management expectation of Aussies returning... one of them (in a key position in this particular area) stated quite confidently to me that ex-pats would return "for the lifestyle" and that they wouldn't need to increase the salary that is being offered.

ANSA... a former colleague of yours in Management told me that you would be welcomed back (you must know that they're desperate to fill vacancies in your old group). Don't rely on HR to contact you, recruiting is an absolute debacle. Call & speak to the Centre Manager direct, and, I would not be surprised if you personally could achieve a re-entry on the top salary (currently AUD$130,000). I doubt anyone could negotiate payment of re-location expenses from overseas, might have to have a fire-sale in Abu Dhabi. My brother payed to re-locate to and from Dubai with his wife. It was a pain in the butt and the cost was significant.

Good luck.

AirNoServicesAustralia

5th Feb 2007, 06:20

I would never expect relocation costs to come back, and thats why it is cheaper for ASA to take back us rather than go to the expense of a global search and sponsor and relocate non-Aussies. Thats why I find it amazing that they didn't do as the Norwegians did first and get back the guys that had left, after all better the devil you know. Anyway thanks for that I might have to drop the Centre manager a line and see how far into the future they would be willing to give me before I would have to come back, as neither the bucket of **** or the bucket of money are full yet (although the former is starting to get close).:ok:

Quokka

5th Feb 2007, 06:59

ANSA... one thing though, your old group is very different to when you left. It's not a happy place and there are problems, very big problems.

If you do return to that group, expect to be stuck there for several years unless you gain promotion (ie. Spud's experience returning from HK). Merit selection has been well and truly corrupted. When your old group lost two controllers in rapid succession late last year, an Ops Manager (newly promoted and rapidly losing the respect of the controllers) went to an experienced controller on an adjacent group who had previously held the endorsement and asked if he would be interested in filling one of the vacancies with the words... "you'll be looked upon favourably in the next selection process (for promotion)". The answer to that offer was a clear "no" with nothing but contempt for the suggestion that a promotion would follow the favour.

If you have your sights set on coming back to a different position, push hard to get the transfer, don't trust any promise of "give us 12 months in your old group and we'll consider your request for transfer".

Having said all of that, I sympathise with the bucket of **** getting bigger...