WSOP LDRs conference

[Good Mickey]

Unable to attend due to OOA...anything interesting crop up?

[R 21]

Still waiting on the back brief. Hopefully it will be good news not the usual doom and gloom !!:confused:

[BEagle]

The way the RAF is going, you might soon need one of these:

http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/careers/crew_application_form.pdf

[Climebear]

The way the RAF is going, you might soon need one of these:
http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/resources/img/sections/careers/crew_application_form.pdf


An Army colleague has just sent me the latest email (sent to him by a RN officer - oh the joys of living in the Purple Bat Cave) - 25 reasons McDonalds is better than the RAF

1. Better uniform

2. More medals and you get them because you can do your job

3. Free food, properly cooked, without the added bland

4. Promotion on ability rather than incompetence

5. Employee of the month rather than ‘witch-hunt’ of the month

6. McDonalds is in the middle of the town not in the middle of nowhere

7. When children have tantrums you don’t end up with extra work

8. McDonalds don’t pretend they’re investing in people

9. Superior supply system

10. There is no requirement to salute Ronald McDonald

11. Sh***ing the manageress is not a crime

12. The ar*****es are in the burger not in charge

13. Only the customers are called "Sir"

14. A mcflurry is an ice cream not a panic during a post crash-management exercise

15. McDonalds has only one clown

16. Ronald McDonald dresses in a uniform appropriate to his role

17. You can switch to Burger King at a moments notice

18. The Mountsey Trophy is a toy in Happy Meals

19. Ronald McDonald smiles

20. Gate guard is waiting for the next drive-thru customer

21. There are no McDonalds outlets in the Falkland Isles, Iraq or Afghanistan (yet!)

22. There is no requirement to fill out the "Chicken McNugget" database

23. It doesn’t take 16 years to develop a new deep fat fryer

24. The rubbish goes in to the bin and not your in-tray

25. The only acronym you have to remember is BLT

[Could be the last?]

The event was a big improvement on previous conferences. It displayed the potential to become a more active forum and affect a change to many of WSOp issues; more importantly, it did not degenerate into a winge session! It is my understanding that those who were not invited directly, this was an oversight; however, those who chose not to go, missed out on a very informative couple of days.

Subjects Covered:

Manning
Medical
Future Platforms
NCA Commissioning
Empowerment

Subjects Presented:

ASTOR
A400M
NCA LT

I am sure when the minutes are produced they will make for a very interesting read. Well done to all those who orchestrated the event.:ok:

[Ginger Beer]

Eng manning deficit/requirement @ ISK :hmm:

Eng surplus @ LYN (see above) :suspect:

LMs to go on Eng OCU cse's planned at ISK and Waddo using SH Crewmen (I thought we were short of SH LMs too) :confused: ?

PMA openly (MISS)using further service/PAS as a carrot/STICK to get Eng's to ISK, instead of the scheme simply retaining their experience/them past their exit point, as it was designed :=

Ginge

[toddbabe]

Loadies to go on Eng courses ?! you are joking right? They have had to trawl and take some Alm winchmen from Sar to cover shortfall in SH crewmen, SH is still short and really can't see them letting alm's come up to Kinloss or waddo to go on a very long course to try and train them.
Why did they ever stop the courses at Cranwell? it was obvious that the mk4 was going to be late and that we would be short of eng's, even stevie wonder could see that one coming!
Not being funny either but aren't eng's meant to have some engineering background? they have been recruiting only form the ranks of ex techies for a good reason, taking a Loadie even a good one is in my eyes a bit of a risk and a massive oversight.
Nothing new there then!

[Ginger Beer]

Yep,

OCU @Waddo has a QFI tasked to look at some sort of cse to take an SH LM into the 3rd seat (for this coming summer's cse?). I understand that the same has been said of ISK. Don't know about other fleets.

The SH bit was due to those LMs having experience of ac systems and doing AF/BFs etc however, I can't remember the last time an Eng did one of those or got his hands dirty anyway :confused:

Good luck to our LM brethren, perhaps more Eng's can go to SH and do a few crewman tours, where there are chances of promotion at least. :ok:

LMs filling Eng seats and vice versa, tis coming to a fleet near you, go figure:ugh:

Ginge

[TheWizard]

Sorry to seem a bit thick here, but
Eng surplus @ LYN (see above)

Doesn't that seem a more obvious answer to the ISK problem??:confused:

[Ginger Beer]

How many of the LYN contingent do you think are keen to up roots and head North ?

A N Other Eng was told of his imminent future in Scotland and has had to reluctantly NGR, I think others may feel the same way?

Ginge

[snakepit]

A N other Eng, from Cranwell recently found that despite all career aspirations to the contrary and many years of loyal service, he was impolitely told by the binnsworth "I tell you where to go and its ISK for you".
Knowing that this was indeed true (another example of "crisis management", but take the word "management" out of that statement) he promptly submitted his PVR.
Another one bites the dust.
Its a good job we can train more LOL. In fact I cannot stop laughing.
You aint seen me right. Keeping head down.

[TheWizard]

How many of the LYN contingent do you think are keen to up roots and head North ?
A N Other Eng was told of his imminent future in Scotland and has had to reluctantly NGR, I think others may feel the same way?
Ginge
And you think that many SH crewmen would be any happier? So it would be OK to move people from another trade doing the job they CHOSE to do because "the LYN contigent" don't want to move to do the job they trained to do?
Reluctantly NGR? Sorry but if you want to stay in the job, then you move where you are told, reluctantly or not. Yes, it can be difficult for your family etc but thats life in the mob. Ask any groundcrew. It's not like there are too many moves in the AE world and I am afraid in this day and age I have no sympathy for someone who takes umbridge at having to move to do their job just because they have not had to move before. That's life.
This is not a pop at anyone, particularly Eng's but it does seem strange when there are jobs available for people in the same trade but because it isn't 'where or what' I want to do then a 'lets get someone else to do it' attitude appears.

[dessert_flyer]

Like it or not, along with the military going through changes, its personel are also going through changes. The majority of the A Eng cadre are not young free and single and willing to go wherever their lordships feel they need to send them. Many are older and married with children, who's wives have careers of their own. For them to move would without doubt cause them to loose out financialy, and have the added complication of having to uproot their children from school. This is a move many are not willing to undertake, and i for one can fully iunderstand their reasons. Put on top of that the fact that once in ISK you are more than likely going to spend at least a third of the year out of the country, leaving your wife and kids to fend for themselves, in the north of Scotland, most of whom will be a long way from the established support network, ie Familly and friends. With these options what are you likely to do, go or Pvr, i dont see their is much option.
As for the support you are likely to recieve when their, well a battle with DHE and the subsequent farce with claiming on JPA, no thanks.
Well at least they have a ready supply of A Eng's waiting to jump into the slots left by those who PVR when they get their posting notice!

[TheWizard]

Absolutely agree, all very valid points which apply to ANY personnel not just Air Engs.
LMs to go on Eng OCU cse's planned at ISK and Waddo using SH Crewmen (I thought we were short of SH LMs too) ?

So therefore the same criteria applies. If there are volunteers, then fair enough but otherwise why should another branch cover the shortfall at their own expense?:hmm:

[dessert_flyer]

And I thought we were in the military. You get told to move, you move. X-factor anyone?

Yes we are and yes those are the rules, but also in the rules is our ability to PVR, and that is what many will do for the reasons i stated earlier. I am not here to defend what is happening, only to give the reasons why it is happening, and i dont see it getting any better.
This is a situation that has to be handled with kid gloves, ortherwise it could escalate, as more people decide enough is enough.

[fergineer]

Well I have heard it all now..........To the guys at Lynhamfield you only have your jobs to lose, start letting other trades in and you will have nothing left at all, I know of many of the AEops that flew with me n the Nimrod that would have made excellent Eng's and when I was working out in Oman with the Omani Air Force the ALM section was where we recruited our Eng's from, it can be done and with the attitude of I will PVR if you send me there it will be sooner rather than later..........I was posted to ISK after my training, I was kicking and screaming all the way but once there I loved it, give it a try guys its not that bad a place to live.........Long times away maybe but if you look at it how many days are you away on the Herc, add it all up you will be surprised.
Blackmail is not the way to go guys, just think about what you are doing, it may hurt you more than you think!!!!!

[Ginger Beer]

Originally posted by The Wizard...

So therefore the same criteria applies. If there are volunteers, then fair enough but otherwise why should another branch cover the shortfall at their own expense?

I thought we were all the same now, WSOps ?

Ginge

[TheWizard]

Yep,
OCU @Waddo has a QFI tasked to look at some sort of cse to take an SH LM into the 3rd seat (for this coming summer's cse?). I understand that the same has been said of ISK. Don't know about other fleets.
The SH bit was due to those LMs having experience of ac systems and doing AF/BFs etc however, I can't remember the last time an Eng did one of those or got his hands dirty anyway :confused:
Good luck to our LM brethren, perhaps more Eng's can go to SH and do a few crewman tours, where there are chances of promotion at least. :ok:
LMs filling Eng seats and vice versa, tis coming to a fleet near you, go figure:ugh:
Ginge

YOUR words mate:hmm:

[Sideshow Bob]

If they are good enough to pass the course and they want to do the job why shouldn't they. The Canadians use the crewman to Eng route and it seams to work. I don't know why everyone is so scared about going to ISK; I really enjoyed my time there and would still be there if it was not for medical reasons. It is certainly better than AT, try two days a week at home, if your lucky, week in week out, for the past 8 months. It soon becomes very tiring. The problem is that the K eng's have been sat on their backsides doing very little when not on det and enjoying the comfy lifestyle. Time to help the rest of us out guys.

[bwfg3]

Reluctantly NGR? Sorry but if you want to stay in the job, then you move where you are told, reluctantly or not. Yes, it can be difficult for your family etc but thats life in the mob.

Yes my NGR was reluctant and I no way used it as a blackmail method as suggested by some. Innsworth KNEW that I have a 15 year old in the middle of GCSE courses and an 18 Year old in the middle of A levels, and its ridiculous to suggest moving them at this critical stage of their education into a totally different educational system :ugh: . Commuting to anywhere in england from ISK is impossible. Anyone who puts any job before the welfare and educational needs of their loved ones needs their head read. I was assured by Innsworth that there are no E-3 OCU slots, so the LM to E-3 in one easy step is a sick joke. (or PMA being economical with the truth?).:rolleyes:

[Ginger Beer]

bwfg3,

Good to hear from you matey,

Like you, my family must and will always come first. You join up, get married and have children. At those special points in life your responsibilities change and your priorities change too. I have the greatest respect for the decision you have taken, it must have been a difficult one.

I am also in a position similar to yours, both professionally and personally. If the PI ends up on my desk, I hope I have the moral courage to make the right decision and look after those loved ones, who have supported me whilst serving around the world and who will be with me long after the blue fun machine has let me go.

Like you, I also enjoy this silly game we call an RAF career and I would hate to be put in a position which left me no option but to consider a different career path.

I can't understand PMA saying that there are no slots in the short to medium term at Waddo, as it was only announced last week by the CO, that from next year onwards, the OCU is to increase course output from 2 to 3 courses per year. There is obviously 1 extra slot per year from now on that PMA had not initially catered for.

A QFI on the OCU has definately been tasked to look at a couse for a LM.

Loyalty should be a two way thing? Good luck, matey

Ginge

[Wrong Again]

Funny really, it doesn't seem to matter how often you mention to PMA that there is a manning problem out there waiting to hit them in the face, they never react, quoting instead that budgeting won't allow them to be pro active. At the last Arch Bishops and Rocket Scientists convention I attended (10 years ago), this topic was discussed but dismissed by the Personnel Misshandling Agency rep.
At the end of the day, I fear some individuals will have to balance their family life and 'Queen's Shilling', against the requirements of the Service, something we are being asked to do with increasing regularity.

[AC Ovee]

The argument against a move in the RAF, based on children and schooling is flawed and selfish. We all have choices. If you serve, you can decide to have , or not have, children. Or, if you have children, you can decide to join, or not join, or leave the Service. If you decide to have children while in the Services, you must consider, at an early point in their lives, how they will be schooled. The Services provide help with boarding school allowance, etc, not to mention the DYRMS and QVS. Or, if boarding is not acceptable, then Dad can go boarding...in the Mess. PVR/NGR is the ultimate choice, in matters of settled schooling.

Most of us hope for a settled family life and, indeed, most of us in the RAF are lucky and it happens. But, it is luck, and not a right.

[bwfg3]

I agree with some of your comments AC, Particularly regarding kids and the fact that single mums serve etc... however... PMA promised postings and then retract? training other trades into the very OCU you were (allegedly) promised? Doesnt wash with me mate. And finally.. Theres a time to uproot people.. If PMA had given me 3 years, I wouldnt have batted an eyelid. ( P.S my last posting was in 2004.. so stability.? you're having a giraffe mate):suspect:

[AC Ovee]

Whoa, I'm not supporting PMA in the subject of a cancelled posting and putting unqualified people on the cancelled OCU. In that regard I'm with you, if that is the case. Career development is a two way street; we'll make ourselves available for postings, or leave the Service, and in return PMA must look ahead, explore all reasonable avenues and keep to their promises.

Lets be clear. Are you saying that your man at PMA:

1. Told you, with no room for doubt, that you will be posted to E-3 next year.

2. Intended to post you from your current station (Lyneham?) to another station (Waddington) within 3 years of your arrival on your current station (is this is what you meant by " If PMA had given me 3 years, I wouldnt have batted an eyelid. ( P.S my last posting was in 2004.. so stability.? "

2. Went back on his word and told you that there are no slots available on E-D and cancelled your move.

3. Then made arrangements for a LM to proceed on the E-3 course that you were told you were assigned to.

I suggest you think carefully before you answer.

I know about the LM. Its a flawed plan regardless of anything else.

[snakepit]

bwfg3,
A QFI on the OCU has definately been tasked to look at a couse for a LM.
Ginge

I remember when there was the eng shortage at lyn and there was talk of spare captains or GE's filling the eng seat. It was all on till the CAA found out that the RAF was planning to allow mil ac to fly in civi airspace with untrained crewmembers. I wonder if anyone has let them know that the RAF is planning it again.

I am not saying that loadies cannot fill the eng seat as we are all one trade now. You can put anyone in any crew position but you have to give them basic
training at a FTS, as happen now if an eng/aeop wants to go SH. Unfortunately there is no eng school at which to get eng training anymore, I know cause I was there when they shut it even though we said it was too early.

Good luck on your decision bwfg3 putting family first is a RIGHT you have under NGR and I cannot understand why some people have a problem with it. As too Engs doing what PMA tells them to do, I think they shot themselves in the foot when the Eng cadre was made a rare but still vital breed.

You aint seen me right.

[buoy15]

I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait

[buoy15]

I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait

[snakepit]

I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait

My point exactly. Its all well and good being "all of one trade" but you need the basic training background in order to fill an NCA position outside your original trade using the current ocu training hours.

[DuaneDibley]

Just to (briefly) go back to the thread’s original subject, I agree wholeheartedly with Could Be The Last’s view.

The forum has real potential to become the influencing voice in the future of the WSOp cadre, a fact confirmed by the presence of the (Gp Capt) Branch Sponsor representatives. It should also be remembered that no parallel body exists for commissioned WSOs, – the empowered WSOps have a real chance to make a difference here, providing their act is together.

Despite the debate here regarding Eng manning (more of which later…..) for me, the real hot issue to grip now is Job Evaluation. The honesty of the WSOp (ALM) Desk Officer regarding his initial ignorance of the Job Eval process, while refreshing, also highlighted a complete lack of corporate continuity within PMA over the past 4 years. The Lessons Identified prior to / during / after the successful Job Eval of the AEOp cadre in 2000 have obviously been forgotten and need to re-learned quickly. With the latest Job Eval placing all WSOp ranks firmly in the lower Pay Band, ‘Management Discretion’ had to be applied to maintain the cadre on the upper level – in other words, you were “given a bye”. Make no mistake though, ‘Management Discretion’ will not last forever (as the AEOps found out in 1989, after 2 stays of execution). As soon as they can get away with it, the Treasury bean counters will push to uphold Job Eval findings – and for that reason, the cadre needs to get and remain savvy on the Job Eval process so that, come 4 years time, the right (and just) result is achieved.

As far as postings to ISK go, does anybody out there have a solution to PMA’s manning problems, rather than a list of all the reasons why they (to paraphrase Sideshow Bob) can’t “help out the other guy”? The bottom line is that Innsworth has to man the Service’s aircrew seats; does anyone really think that the PMA33 dept is merely out to inconvenience as many people as possible? Some individuals seem to have a 200-mile UK radius of action based on the Oxon/Wilts border that precludes them fulfilling the DUTY they accept the (still relatively lucrative) Shilling for. Sure, NGR/PVR are rights, but please don’t imply that staying in England was the only criterion for not exercising that right. As others have already stated, children’s education would not suffer just because Dad or Mum had a longer-than-to-Waddo commute. Many “can-do” others have done their ISK stretch (you could say their “bit”?) while unaccompanied. In my experience, those people were invariably highly appreciated by their section Ldrs (who, by the way, are empowered now aren’t they?) to the point that regular long weekends were massaged out of the programme for them, with the total approval of the rest of their Sqn peers in acknowledgement of the fact that they were pulling their weight for the brevet. To all those that exercise the NGR/PVR right, I wish you well – but it hardly helps the situation does it…….

[TheWizard]

I would be most surprised to see a breved SH LM / AEng successfully graduate from an ISK or Waddo OCU on a 1st attempt without doing the whole 9 yards trg that the wetties and dry's have to go through
Mind you - "they" - reckon, if you give a monkey a typewriter and sufficient time, he will complete the whole works of Shakespear
Can't wait

Starting with "How to not press the 'Enter' key twice when posting a reply on PPRuNE" :p !

[bad livin']

Is this proposed solution to the Eng issue likely to be one that's resolved within some relatively short timeframe, or something that'll roll on with knock on effects for streaming in a year/2 years down the line?

[500days2do]

During my time at Rompers Green the 'scottish' issue often raised its head,normally a bi-annual event but recently more often. The usual list of reasons 'not' to go were dragged out, but eventually some junior was given his marching orders north. One of the many problems with the system for choosing who went where, was the lack of transparency in the whole process. We would start with a slot for a Meng and eventually a Sgt would head north. It was always obvious that it would happen.... the service will lose its younger more able personnel because it hasnt developed a transparent joined-up policy on posting.

5d2d

[The Gorilla]

What, is there an Eng manning issue these days? Pray tell me more please.

[snakepit]

The Lessons Identified prior to / during / after the successful Job Eval of the AEOp cadre in 2000 have obviously been forgotten and need to re-learned quickly. With the latest Job Eval placing all WSOp ranks firmly in the lower Pay Band, ‘Management Discretion’ had to be applied to maintain the cadre on the upper level – in other words, you were “given a bye”. Make no mistake though, ‘Management Discretion’ will not last forever (as the AEOps found out in 1989, after 2 stays of execution). As soon as they can get away with it, the Treasury bean counters will push to uphold Job Eval findings – and for that reason, the cadre needs to get and remain savvy on the Job Eval process so that, come 4 years time, the right (and just) result is achieved.


It would be interesting to see the fallout if all the NCA trades and ranks went to the lower band, when we have cooks and police and just about every other non technical trade with at least some of their ranks on the higher band. I know the job eavl is no longer based on anything so simple as tech/nontech but you have to question a system that allows pay reversal as currently seems to be happening.

The moral boost of the loadies getting up banded will not last long as the possibility of pay cuts across the NCA cadre starts to hit home. How long before we start to here phrases like "you might not be so lucky in 4 years time so you had better pull your collective fingers out". It shows that nothing is sacred not even your pay. A big thank you to all involved with putting us all in the higher band, but we still have the bitter pill to swallow that we are not worth the money in the systems eyes and I am sure we will be reminded of it when it suits the airships.

IMHO if the airships really think we are worth the money (and someone obviously does as we are still in the higher band) then scrap the ridiculous system that threatens to change your pay every 5 years.

Get on the PA spine if you can before the next job eval.

[Ginger Beer]

So,

A RockApe (bless'em, salt of the earth etc) will be on the higher pay band and NCA won't? :ugh:

That would just about finish me off.

Ginge

[bwfg3]

AC OVEE
pm for you mate, and thanks to all who have given me support, its much apprieciated and makes me feel humble. Thanks:D

[lastmanstanding]

bwfg3
How does with no grease sound. Know you have been. Not a lot else been muttered really. It shocks me in the current day and age that they can do this to people. The closure of the Eng school and the sudden extension of the MR2 and the shiny10 to at least the next decade(2015.........at least for the 10!!) whilst turning off the tap should have set big alarm bells ringing instead of the blazee attitude that has obviously been taken. A surplus (potential) here at LYN and a deficit at KIN-easy maths for an uncaring un-thinking PMA. Also the new upbanding (not for our ALM brothers and sisters I quickly hasten to add-I may be one shortly, and very long overdue-but the lack of parity now between the ALM pay banding and the rest of the NCA cadre) Good work if you can get it but why are some folk who have been in Rank of 2 yrs getting what it would take the rest of us 6 years to earn?? JPA cant compute I think.Correct me if Im wrong but a few wry smiles here at the nations TAC AT HQ.Writing on the wall for some-me included:ugh: