ENGINE FAILURE at Takeoff

[TopperHarley]

Hi Guys - Just a quick query prompted by a discussion after a aircraft simulator excercise i recently completed (Im a pilot).....

I was dealing with an engine failure right at V1 - and shortly after takeoff (300 odd feet) told the tower..... "ENGINE FAILURE, COMPANY SPECIAL PROCEDURE - STANDY BY" as i was very busy flying the aeroplane and securing the engine etc. After I had the engine secured, i went ahead with more specific details......

How badly does a tower controller need to know if an aircraft is flying an "engine out procedure" (that may differ from SID) due to an emergency after takeoff ?? Is the aircrafts lack of performance obvious from the tower ?

Are you provided with/aware of any company special enging out tracking procedures ?

My theory is that you guys in the tower can work out what has gone wrong, and deal with it - as my priority getting the aeroplane away from the ground.

The checkie took a contrary position - suggesting that the tower would need to know exact tracking details ASAP so as to avoid us hitting another aircraft.

So whos right ?!?!?!

Cheers !

[Conspiracy Theories]

I'm not a controller although i think if you call that you have an engine failure, then its reasonable to assume that you will be busy. If you haven't declared a Mayday, then may ask the pilot and just get everything out of the way to assist the aircraft with an engine failure. I believe its recognised that the make of the aeroplane is known and that only one engine has failed for a 737 for example, an emergency is declared regardless since the aeroplane has lost 50% of its power supply. I think this is the general rule.
At the end of the day, the controller will be aware that you will be very busy and just try and get everything out of your way but he will need to know some details of the emergency to alert the appropriate services on the ground i would assume.

hope this helps

[Gonzo]

I would like to know that you had an engine failure, but other than that I'd be happy to wait a while until you felt able to give me more information. I'd assume that you'd not make the climb profile of the SID (to the extent of perhaps even levelling off at a low level), and either go straight ahead or keep on the SID track. So maybe in retrospect a quick comment to say if you're going to follow the SID or go straight ahead would certainly help.

I'm afraid we don't know each company's SOP/QRH for engine failure on departure. I know (knew?) Concorde's, but that was only because we examined it in detail at our yearly emergency training, and also Virgin's A343 procedure (again due to a VIR 340 pilot attending our training).

[loubylou]

You are!!!
I would want to know that something has happened - as you did so! (Along the lines of "C/S MAYDAY, engine failure, stand by"
As you say - you fly it , and we have the information needed to work out that you may not route as expected, you might want to hold/return/fly straight etc. This means we can alert the relevant agencies, including other sectors whose airspace you are flying through, stop deps and think about breaking stuff off the approach etc
Then when you are at least airbourne and away from the ground I would like to know what you want to do - but only when you are ready and able to tell me!!
It is not reasonable to expect controllers to know about company SOP's , as they will vary from company to company and type to type

hope that helps;)

louby

[Capt Claret]

Topper - my thoughts.

Sim and term V1 suggest multi crew ops, so one pilot flying. Pilot not flying lets ATC know what's going on.
Think of the number of operators at say Heathrow. Company procedures are just that, procedures designed by the operator. It would be unreasonable to expect ATC to know every company's special procedures.
Think from an ATCO's perspective. SID says at 1000' turn left 090. Your special procedure says at 1000' turn right 270. Just advising ATC of "engine failure" doesn't give them enough information to control. It would be unreasonable to expect them to start vectoring all aircraft that could pose a separation risk.
ENGINE FAILURE, COMPANY SPECIAL PROCEDURE - STANDY BY 7 words.

"Engine failure, turning right 270, climbing 6000, SBY for details" - 10 words, far more detail, saves ATC asking you what your intentions are, etc.

As part of your takeoff safety brief (which should be brief) have in mind the salient points of the special procedure so that they come out fairly easily.


IMHO the checkie's correct. And we all know that the checkie is always correct! ;)

[BOAC]

I'll vote for the checkie too (and Cpt C). For example, current company, 737 - if no emergency turn, fly straight ahead. Last company - if no emergency turn, follow SID. Could be a bit of a shock to ATC either way. Just a quick word as to which way you are 'going' will make life much easier for ATC.

[niknak]

"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.."

Deal with the problem, do what has to be done, let us know, (but do it ASAP please).

The vast majority of units have radar or ATM (Aerodrome Traffic Monitors) avaialble and any ATCO worth their salt will realise if something is wrong by observing the departure profile on said facility, equaly they should be prudent enough to wait for a decent interval to let you sort out the aeroplane and your thoughts.

[tmmorris]

Surely PNF is working the checklist like a blue-@rsed fly to try to solve the engine failure?

Tim

[BOAC]

Surely PNF is working the checklist like a blue-@rsed fly to try to solve the engine failure? Tim - no - we are talking about the INITIAL call PNF will make. It takes 5 seconds to add "climbing straight ahead - standby" or "turning onto south - standby" and surely it is PF doing the 'aviating'? If the crew are THAT busy, they should not even make a call.

[52 North]

As an aside to this, are there any airports in the world where the local procedures would require a particular direction of turn in event of an engine failure on departure? E.g. for terrain reasons or other airports in the vicinity?

If so, I take it that this would override the company engine failure procedures, is that true?

Thanks

52N

[Maz11]

52N in answer to your question, yes. I can think of many airports where the terrain would have a major impact on the Emergency Turn Procedure.

The point to remember though is that, atleast in my company there is not a standard procedure used wherever we are. Emergency Turns are in our performance manual and are specific for each airport and runway. So they should take into account any high ground around the airfield.

For example in Manch if were going off the 24s then there is no Emergency Turn, we can either follow the SID or fly straight ahead, (its up to us).

However if were going off the 6s then regardless of which SID we've been given in the clearance, if we have an engine fire/failure then we're going to follow the Emergency Turn, which in our case is the Listo Departure. We'll have that set up in the secondary flight plan so it can be activated quickly shoud we need it, (or atleast i do).

So I could imagine it being quite a shock to you guys when your expecting us to turn left, (on say a Nokin), and we go and hang a right.

Hope that helps

[52 North]

Many thanks for the answers.

52 North

[055166k]

TopperHarley
Don't forget that a transmission such as "PAN PAN PAN" or "MAYDAY" will not only guarantee to focus the controller's attention but will also relay urgency to others on frequency. As for your company procedure......rather a lot of different operators out there in aeroplane land, and rather a lot of different types/engines etc. Sometimes ATC response can seem like overkill....but we tend not to dilute safety.....and would you want us to?
I know you will be busy....if you can't talk at least put on 7700 .....I know that not everybody will agree with that......but in a radar environment it lets everybody know.......and in my opinion that overrides many of the reservations.

[Talkdownman]

if you can't talk at least put on 7700 .....I know that not everybody will agree with that......but in a radar environment it lets everybody know.......and in my opinion that overrides many of the reservations.It is credible enough, for '7700 asap' is actually taught on flying instructor courses. Just respond to any ATS comms with '(Mayday/Pan) standby' while you sort out the problem. They will then leave you alone. Then you can tx when you are ready.

[throw a dyce]

Topper,
I think that the checkie might have a point.At our little airport we have terrain to the west,and sea to the east.The option which a lot would go for is a turn over the sea.However if that's the opposite to the departure routing,then a unexpected turn to the east could rapidly bring you into conflict with numerous helicopters,who can't get out of the way easily.
We don't know what each companies engine out procedures are.Certainly climb straight ahead,squawk 7700 asap,inform ATC asap is a good starter from the controllers point of view.In our case the controller might be able to assist you with a heading in the desired direction,instead of you doing an unknown procedure which could be very dangerous for other traffic.

[av8boy]

From my standpoint (very busy airports in California), "[Callsign], engine fire, stand by" is plenty for the first call. Just remember that the thing that's going to be problematic for me is the question of determining with which positions/sectors/facilities I'll need to coordinate, as well as terrain. If you're off the 24s at LAX, are you needing to turn left to cross the 25 departures? Are you going to turn hard right and fly through Santa Monica's airspace on the way to your close encounter with the mountains? Are you going to swing around to the right downwind and get into Santa Monica's rwy 21 left downwind on your way into the LAX arrival controller's airspace? If I've already cleared you to, say 13,000, are you going to go up and fence with the arrivals entering the downwind, or turn just enough to enter a center sector different from the one that's expecting you?

In short, my primary goal is in ensuring that you can do what you have to do. I just need to know where to get everybody else out of the way as soon as you've got a moment. Buy hey, if you're on fire and I'm not, I can wait. I'll work it out.

Dave

[GuruCube]

Now Im a fairly new boy to this, but this is what I imagine Id do:

All Id need is a "callsign, engine failure, standby". First thing would be the priority line to the radar controller and advise him of the engine failure. That way he can keep things clear of you. Id then vacate any lined up aircraft and clear any aircraft on short final to land. Anything further on approach I would 'go around' or ask radar to break off in order to clear the circuit for you. Next thing would be to know if you are going to fly a visual circuit or require vectors. If its a visual circuit, as soon as the circuit is clear Id clear you to land. If you need vectors Id see if you can accept a Freq change then put you to radar and tell them that you are cleared to land.

Well, thats the theory anyway... :}
At a free-flow airfield the climb out is pretty clear anyway so 99% of the time there will be no traffic (especially with reduced performance) and as soon as I let radar know they can move everything else out of your way. At the end of the day, you get the priority.

[CNTDSCT]

While the Aircraft accelerates(must suppose all memory items and initial procedures completed),then i believe the PNF has time to transmit mayday and advise ATC of initial action(direction/altitude/non standard turn).
If acceleration is delayed due to airfield special initilal turn due to terrain(runway analyis Engine out special procedure),MAYDAY can be transmitted when all necessary actions are made and aircraft stable during turn).or earlier if PNF is way on top of the game and knows a few seconds spared are there to allow efficient and clear comms.

SOPS differ,know yours and think if it happens ,when would be the good time to communicate.

[javelin]

I wonder whether the original poster has a similar procedure to us ?

Some time ago, we adopted standardised emergency turns off every runway. If terrain is a factor, it is taken into account, if not, at around 1500' AAL, we turn back into the overhead and hold.

Slight snag is no one has ever communicated this to ATC units and when I have discussed it with ATC colleagues the reaction varies quite a lot.

The rational is that you stay within a terrain surveyed area although it would probably be a shock at LGW or MAN if you did it during a busy period :eek:

[Scott Voigt]

Pretty much what most have said, just as soon as you can let us know if you are going staight or a right or left turn so we can move traffic. Other than that the most important item is probably what runway you want so that we can get the crash crew at the right locations on the airport. That takes a bit of time.

regards

Scott